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#21 Concerned

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Posted 24 August 2004 - 07:38 AM

Phoove,
I see your point in the explanations. But you should remember that this narrative was given by Estes after he converted, so the mixing of nineveh and of fish with whale can be understood. As far as the Quran is concerned

The Quranic account is as follows.
37:139. And Jonah was most surely of those sent. *
37:140. When he ran away to a ship completely laden,
37:141. Then he drew lots, but was of those rejected.
37:142. And the fish swallowed him while he was blameworthy,
37:143. But had it not been that he was of those who glorify (Us),
37:144. He would certainly have tarried in its belly to the day when they are raised.
37:145. Then We cast him on to the desert shore while he was sick.

68:48. So wait patiently for the judgment of your Lord, and be not like the Companion of the Fish (Jonah), when he cried while he was in distress

21:87. And remember Zun-nun (the man of the Whale, Jonah), when he went away in wrath and thought that We had no power over him; but he cried out in the darkness, "There is no God but Thou, celebrated be Thy praise! Verily, I was of the wrong!"

Secondly the Quran does not mention anywhere that Nineveh was the city of Jonah. It does not even mention the name of Nineveh. Also no mention of bottom of sea in the above.

>>>According to Estes, "the idea was that we can't really run away from our problems because we always know what we have done." This is absolutely NOT the "idea" of the Biblical account<<<

From Christian Debater
Q: In Jon, what lessons can we learn here?
A: Jonah teaches at least three lessons concurrently. Very simply, they are:
1. God wants complete obedience, not partial obedience. No one, not even a true prophet, is exempt from continuing to press on in obedience.
2. You can run from God, but you cannot hide. God
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#22 phoove

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Posted 24 August 2004 - 01:19 PM

> this narrative was given by Estes after he converted, so the mixing of nineveh and of fish with whale can be understood

Estes was telling us how he was explaining the Jonah story to someone in the hospital; this explanation ostensibly occured before Estes supposedly "converted" to Islam; and it was done in an effort to convert the patient to Christianity.

My point is that Estes could not have been explaining the Jonah story in this manner prior to his "conversion" to Islam. The whale/fish issue is only one of many errors. It is the combined weight of all the errors that prove his deceptions.

His storyline does not hold up; therefore, he is a fraud. Most likely he seeks and receives fame (and perhaps some financial contributors) as a result of his "conversion story," but it is obvious that he plays fast-and-loose with the truth. He admits that he was a morally degenerate person prior to his ostensible "conversion," and it seems that since his conversion he has become "twice the son of hell" as before...

Estes is a disgrace to Islam and to anyone who honors the truth.


--------------------

Matthew 23:15 "...you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn him into twice the son of hell as you yourselves are."
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#23 phoove

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Posted 24 August 2004 - 01:27 PM

> i can give you another name of a Reverend converter which you can check from the Vatican itself

Every religion can provide lists of people who convert from one religion to another. This is not unusual or surprising.

These conversions occur for many reasons, but for Americans converting to Islam, this is usually because of some unmet emotional need and because they lack the intellectual ability (or desire) to investigate the claims of Islam and Christianity.

My point is not that conversions do not occur, but rather that Estes's story cannot withstand scrutiny. The Jonah story, as damning as it is, is just ONE of his egregious blunders. He is a charlatan, on par with the lowliest "TV Evangelist," seeking applause and perhaps even financial support for himself.
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#24 phoove

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Posted 24 August 2004 - 01:30 PM

> the Quran does not mention anywhere that Nineveh was the city of Jonah. It does not even mention the name of Nineveh. Also no mention of bottom of sea in the above.

I was basing my analysis not on the Koran, but rather on the information provided by Obmar in the sixth post on this thread.

Here is the information that Obmar provided:

Originally posted by obmar
I do not know why you say he deceived about Jonah, buy let me see.

Before that here is Jonah the abridged version.;)

PROPHET YUNUS (Jonah)

Prophet Yunus (Jonah) (pbuh) also known as Dhan-Nun. About his people Almighty Allah said: Was there any town community that believed after seeing the punishment, and its Faith at that moment, saved it from the punishment? (the answer is none)--except the people of Yunus; when they believed, We removed from them the torment of disgrace in the life of the present world, and permitted them to enjoy for a while. (10:98 Quran)

The inhabitants of the town of Nineveh were idolaters who lived a shameless life. Prophet Yunus (pbuh) was sent to teach them the worship of Allah. The people disliked his interference in their way of worship, so they argued. "We and our forefathers have worshipped these gods for many years and no harm has come to us."

Try as he might to convince them of the foolishness of idolatry and of the goodness of Allah's laws, the ignored him. He warned them that if they kept on with their foolishness, Allah's punishment would soon follow. Instead of fearing Allah, they told Yunus that they were not afraid of his threats. "Let it happen," they told him. Yunus was disheartened. "in that case, I will leave you to your misery!" so saying, he left Nineveh, fearing that Allah's anger would soon follow. Remember Dhan Nun (Yunus), when he went off in anger, and imagined that We shall not punish him (the calamities which had befallen him)! (21:87)

Hardly had he left the city when the skies began to change color and looked as if they were on fire. The people were filled with fear by this sight. They recalled the destruction of the people of 'Ad, Thamud and Noah. Was theirs to be a similar fate? Slowly faith penetrated their hearts. They all gathered on the mountain and started to beseech Allah for His mercy and forgiveness. The mountains echoed with their cries. It was a momentous hour, filled with sincere repentance.

Allah removed His wrath and showered His blessings upon them once again. When the threatening storm was lifted, they prayed for the return of Yunus so that he could guide them.

Meanwhile, Yunus had boarded a small ship in the company of other passengers. It sailed all day in calm waters with a good wind blowing at the sails. When night came, the sea suddenly changed. A horrible storm blew as if it were going to split the ship into pieces. The waves looked wild. They rose up as high as mountains then plunged down like valleys, tossing the ship and sweeping over the deck.

Behind the ship, a large whale was splitting the water and opening its mouth. A command had been issued from Almighty Allah to one of the greatest whales of the sea to surface. It obeyed. The whale hurried to the surface of the sea and followed the ship as it had been commanded.

The tempest continued and the chief crewman asked the crew to lighten the ship's heavy load. They threw their baggage overboard, but this was not enough. Their safety lay in reducing the weight further, so they decided among themselves to lighten their load by removing at least one person.

The captain directed: We will make lots with all of the travelers' names. The one whose name is drawn will be thrown into the sea." Yunus knew this was one of the seamen's traditions when facing a tempest. It was a strange polytheistic tradition, but it was practiced at that time. Yunus's affliction and crisis began.

Here was the prophet, subjected to polytheistic rules that considered the sea and the wind to have gods that riot. The captain had to please these gods. Yunus reluctantly participated in the lot, and his name was added to the other travelers' names. The lot was drawn and "Yunus" appeared.

Since they knew him to be the most honorable among them, they did not wish to throw him into the angry sea. Therefore, they decided to draw a second lot. Again Yunus's name was drawn. They gave him a final chance and drew a third lot. Unfortunately for Yunus, his name came up again.

Yunus realized that Allah's hand was in all this, for he had abandoned his mission without Allah's consent. The matter was over, and it was decided that Yunus should throw himself into the water. Yunus stood at the edge of the ship looking at the furious sea. It was night and there was no moon. The stars were hidden behind a black fog. But before he could be thrown overboard, Yunus kept mentioning Allah's name as he jumped into the raging sea and disappeared beneath the huge waves.

The whale found Yunus floating on the waves before it. It swallowed Yunus into its furious stomach and shut its ivory teeth on him as if they were white bolts locking the door of his prison. The whale dived to the bottom of the sea, the sea that runs in the abyss of darkness.

Three layers of darkness enveloped him, one above the other; the darkness of the whale's stomach, the darkness of the bottom of the sea, the darkness of the night. Yunus imaged himself to be dead, but his senses became alert when he found he could move. He knew that he was alive and imprisoned in the midst of three layers of darkness. His heart was moved by remembering Allah. His tongue released soon after saying: La ilaha illa Anta (none has the right to be worshipped but You (O Allah), Glorified (and Exalted) be You (above all that evil they associate with You), Truly, I have been of the wrong doers." (21:87 Quran)

Yunus continued praying to Allah, repeating this invocation. Fishes, whales, seaweeds, and all the creatures that lived in the sea heard the voice of Yunus praying, heard the celebration of Allah's praises issuing from the whale's stomach. All these creatures gathered around the whale and began to celebrate the praises of Allah in their turn, each in its own way and in its own language.

The whale also participated in celebrating the praises of Allah and understood that it had swallowed a prophet. Therefore it felt afraid; however, it said to itself; "Why should I be afraid? Allah commanded me to swallow him."

Allah Almighty saw the sincere repentance of Yunus and heard his invocation in the whale's stomach. Allah commanded the whale to surface and eject Yunus onto an island. The whale obeyed and swam to the farthest side of the ocean. Allah commanded it to rise towards the warm, refreshing sun and the pleasant earth.

The whale ejected Yunus onto a remote island. His body was inflamed because of the acids inside the whale's stomach. He was ill, and when the sun rose, its ray burned his inflamed body so that he was on the verge of screaming for the pain. However, he endured the pain and continued to repeat his invocation to Allah.

Almighty Allah caused a vine to grow to considerable length over him for protection. Then Allah Exalted caused Yunus to recover and forgave him. Allah told Yunus that if it had not been for his praying to Him, he would have stayed in the whale's stomach till the Day of Judgment.

Almighty Allah recounted: And, verily, Yunus was one of the Messengers. When he ran to the laden ship, he agreed to cast lots and he was among the losers, Then a big fish swallowed him and he had done an act worthy of blame. Had he not been of them who glorify Allah, he would have indeed remained inside its belly (the fish) till the Day of Resurrection. But We cast him forth on the naked shore while he was sick and We caused a plant of gourd to grow over him. And We sent him to a hundred thousand people or even more, and they believed; so We gave them enjoyment for a while. (37:139-148 Quran).

Gradually he regained his strength and found his way to his hometown, Nineveh. He was pleasantly surprised to notice the change that had taken place there. The entire population turned out to welcome him. They informed him that they had turned to believe in Allah. Together they led a prayer of thanksgiving to their Merciful Lord.

Ibn Abbas narrated: "The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said: 'One should not say I am better than Yunus Ibn Matta.'" (Sahih Bukhari).


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#25 obmar

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Posted 24 August 2004 - 01:41 PM

Obmar was not quoting everything from the Quran
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#26 phoove

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Posted 24 August 2004 - 01:49 PM

> Obmar was not quoting everything from the Quran

No, but you were giving the Islamic perspective on the Jonah story, were you not? Are your sources defective in some way? If so, why did you use them?

Again I ask, Does not Islam have scholars who are capable of detecting and denouncing the obvious deceit of people such as Estes?

If not, What is to prevent countless other such deceits from being perpetrated in the name of Islam?
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#27 phoove

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Posted 24 August 2004 - 09:04 PM

And Concerned, suppose you had a tape-recorded message in which Estes was bragging to his girlfriend about how "stupid and gullible" the Muslims are for buying into his charade, and how much money they were donating to his phoney "Islamic Center"?

Would you dare to expose him, or would you cover up for him, so as not to cause any further embarrassment to Islam?

I hope you would expose him.

Which of the two options would be the Islamic thing to do? What do you suppose Mohammad do in such a circumstance?
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#28 obmar

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Posted 25 August 2004 - 12:00 AM

Originally posted by phoove
> Obmar was not quoting everything from the Quran

No, but you were giving the Islamic perspective on the Jonah story, were you not? Are your sources defective in some way? If so, why did you use them?

Again I ask, Does not Islam have scholars who are capable of detecting and denouncing the obvious deceit of people such as Estes?

If not, What is to prevent countless other such deceits from being perpetrated in the name of Islam?



Similarly, does christians have scholars who are capable of detecting obvious deceits?
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#29 phoove

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Posted 25 August 2004 - 01:03 AM

> does christians have scholars who are capable of detecting obvious deceits?

Yes, we do. In fact, even our Sunday-school students would catch obvious deceivers such as Estes.

But I asked you the question first. Why don't you answer it?
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#30 obmar

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Posted 25 August 2004 - 02:40 AM

No, but you were giving the Islamic perspective on the Jonah story, were you not? Are your sources defective in some way? If so, why did you use them?



Yes, they were an islamic perspective of the prophet's story, and yes I do.

Why do you jump into conclusion that anything that is not to what you held as defective.

No, I am not saying that they are defective and muslim writers would have undergone great effort to make sure that it is not defective but I am also not saying that it could also be faultless as only the Quran can be held faultless.


here is the Quran on the subject again.

37:139. And Jonah was most surely of those sent. *
37:140. When he ran away to a ship completely laden,
37:141. Then he drew lots, but was of those rejected.
37:142. And the fish swallowed him while he was blameworthy,
37:143. But had it not been that he was of those who glorify (Us),
37:144. He would certainly have tarried in its belly to the day when they are raised.
37:145. Then We cast him on to the desert shore while he was sick.

68:48. So wait patiently for the judgment of your Lord, and be not like the Companion of the Fish (Jonah), when he cried while he was in distress

21:87. And remember Zun-nun (the man of the Whale, Jonah), when he went away in wrath and thought that We had no power over him; but he cried out in the darkness, "There is no God but Thou, celebrated be Thy praise! Verily, I was of the wrong!"

Jonah, the Quran told us had another name Zun-nun.


and if you want to listen to his recordings, rather than unnecessarily tain the hearts with untowards accusations then go to this site.

http://www.aswatalis...px?TitleID=2112
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#31 phoove

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Posted 25 August 2004 - 03:19 AM

> Yes, they were an islamic perspective of the prophet's story

Obmar and Concerned,

What would you think of someone who claimed to be born and raised a muslim--an Imam, no less--who claims to have "converted" to Christianity; and suppose he tells a history of himself where, while still a muslim, he talks to someone about a famous Islamic story, AND HE GIVES THE CHRISTIAN INTERPRETATION OF THAT STORY at a time when, according to his own timetable, he hadn't yet learned anything about Christianity?

Wouldn't you think such a person was a fraud?
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#32 obmar

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Posted 25 August 2004 - 04:09 AM

I would agree with you.

because muslim conversions to other faith is such a rarity
that I would say it is a fraud.;)
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#33 Concerned

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Posted 25 August 2004 - 07:06 AM

>>>Estes was telling us how he was explaining the Jonah story to someone in the hospital; this explanation ostensibly occured before Estes supposedly "converted" to Islam; and it was done in an effort to convert the patient to Christianity.<<<

You are right that it happened when he was a christian but it was "narrated" after his conversion. So most people would have an opinion that he mixed it up while recalling. You tend to think otherwise, it is your perogative.

>>>I was basing my analysis not on the Koran, but rather on the information provided by Obmar in the sixth post on this thread.
<<<

Ofcourse you were, but Estes does not have the link that Obmar has for that story. The Quran has not told any stories about anybody, hints about prophets and people, Yes, but no story. Islamic links that give such a long story usually provide such a lond narrative so as to tell a story which are not necesarily based on the Quran and Hadith. Muslims who know the name of Nineveh are those who have read the bible and seeing that there is nothing to disbelieve in the name, quote it in the islamic narrative. The basis of the telling of these stories are basically the same as that of christians- to learn a lesson whether moral or spiritual. The lessons learnt might be different but the objectives are the same.

>>>Would you dare to expose him, or would you cover up for him, so as not to cause any further embarrassment to Islam?
<<<

All that i do, is for God (may allah have mercy on me). Exposing Estes IF he was a fraud, i would since i do it for God and Islam and not for Estes. And Islam does not forbid me from doing that, rather i will be doing a good deed. But on the other hand if i blamed Estes, without listening to his side of the story i would be committing a sin.

>>>He admits that he was a morally degenerate person prior to his ostensible "conversion," and it seems that since his conversion he has become "twice the son of hell" as before...<<<

I tend to believe otherwise. May Allah have mercy on him.

>>>but for Americans converting to Islam, this is usually because of some unmet emotional need and because they lack the intellectual ability (or desire) to investigate the claims of Islam and Christianity.<<<

So you think that christianity cannot meet the emotional needs of the converted americans??? If i were to belong to a christian denomination, then i would put all my efforts into preaching inside the US rather than sending preachers to Africa because Islam is the fastest growing religion in USA. As far as investigation into Christian and Islamic claims and beliefs, i would be once again happy to have a debate with you on anything that you like.
Judge not others, for you will be judged with the same scale.

>>>Wouldn't you think such a person was a fraud?<<<

Well i agree with Obmar, that it will really be a rarity. But then again you are assuming that Estes is a fraud. His story, as i mentioned above, may be confused in some ways, but wilful lying, i dont think that anybody reading this thread can say that with certainty. And when certainty is not there, he cannot be judged.
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#34 obmar

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Posted 25 August 2004 - 07:23 AM

Gua caya lah lu
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#35 phoove

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Posted 25 August 2004 - 01:52 PM

> So you think that christianity cannot meet the emotional needs of the converted americans?

I do not believe that Estes ever was a Christian. He admits himself that he was living a life of fraud and deceit before his "conversion," and I can plainly see the pattern repeating itself (and spiraling higher) after his so-called "conversion."

But it is true that Christian faith has more intellectual substance than any other faith. Many people never stop to consider these issues and are what we term "Cultural Christians" or "Nominal Christians" (Christians in name only) who do not have the Spirit of God living in their hearts and who have never fully thought through the implications of the Christian faith. In time of trouble, they may not have the resources to delve deeply into a Biblical worldview, and if they have never really invited God into their hearts, they can easily become seduced by some other religion whose relative lack of solid intellectual depth seems less stressful (and actually comforting) to them.


> muslim conversions to other faith is such a rarity that I would say it is a fraud

It is not so rare as you think; in Egypt (and probably other Muslim countries) people are officially counted as muslims, whether or not they may have converted to another faith.

And a "Christian" who converts to Islam becomes an instant celebrity in the muslim world--whether or not his storyline makes sense. By contrast, a muslim who converts to Christianity must keep a low profile, since his own family and neighbors will be obliged by their muslim faith to murder him as an "apostate."
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#36 phoove

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Posted 25 August 2004 - 02:44 PM

> i would put all my efforts into preaching inside the US rather than sending preachers to Africa

Christianity is expanding rapidly in Africa and in Latin America--not because of U.S. "preachers," but rather through indigenous activity.

But I agree in this regard: the U.S.A. has been rapidly falling away from Christian faith and practice since the 1960's. There is an anti-intellectual attitude in popular American culture (and even within the American church) that weakens and degrades everything it touches. Dry intellectualism certainly is not the answer to all ills, but nevertheless we desperately need more dynamic and trained theologians who can somehow pry Americans away from their TV sets and their Nintendos long enough to learn and absorb a genuine Christian worldview. Thanks for your important insight in this matter.

Recommended books:

Philosophical Foundations for A Christian Worldview

Developing a Christian Worldview of the Problem of Evil

Whose Religion is Christianity?

The Method and Message of Jesus' Teaching
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#37 obmar

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 02:40 AM

[i]

It is not so rare as you think; in Egypt (and probably other Muslim countries) people are officially counted as muslims, whether or not they may have converted to another faith.

And a "Christian" who converts to Islam becomes an instant celebrity in the muslim world--whether or not his storyline makes sense. By contrast, a muslim who converts to Christianity must keep a low profile, since his own family and neighbors will be obliged by their muslim faith to murder him as an "apostate." [/B]



Your assumptions had backings or is it just mere speculations.

There is no Quranic instruction to murder an apostate, and that will also remain such till end of time.

I am nearly fifty now, and I had yet to meet personally anyone that i know was a muslim and converts to any other faith...That's what I mean by rarity.
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#38 phoove

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 02:52 AM

> There is no Quranic instruction to murder an apostate

I think Concerned disagrees with you on this point. He said that those who reject Islam should be killed and will be killed.

At least I think this is what Concerned said. He can certainly correct me if I my recollection is wrong.


> I had yet to meet personally anyone that i know was a muslim and converts to any other faith

And I know girls from Khazikstan and Turkmenistan who were muslims, but converted to Christianity, and now must deal with fathers who believe their muslim duty is to slaughter their "apostate" daughters.
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#39 obmar

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 02:58 AM

and I too dont mind to be corrected if there is such a Quran instruction to make one a murderer just because one;s kin becomes an apostate.
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#40 phoove

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 11:20 AM

Interesting.

Muslims claim they all use the same Koran, which is written in an easily understood and clear language (although it's not the same as the Arabic language spoken on the street today; and multiple conflicting English translations of it can be found on Amazon.com).

But muslims believe the Koran is "perfect," "complete," and "lacking nothing."

Yet, sincere and devout muslims cannot even agree about something as basic as whether a muslim father is obliged to slaughter his daughter who freely chooses to convert to Christianity.

Maybe the Koran isn't quite as clear as you'd like to think??? :(
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