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#41 obmar

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 03:06 PM

Surah 109. The Disbelievers, Atheists


1. Say : O ye that reject Faith!

2. I worship not that which ye worship,

3. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

4. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,

5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.


6. To you be your Way, and to me mine.
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#42 Nightmare

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Posted 28 August 2004 - 07:45 AM

Originally posted by phoove
> some Christianity scholars differ in the very basics

Perhaps, as muslim scholars also disagree; but Estes does not rise to the scholarly level. His understanding of Jonah simply does not match the Biblical account.

No Christian believes that Jonah was a Ninivite, for example, and Estes errs egregiously in other details as well. No one raised in the Christian faith--whether liberal, conservative, Orthodox, Catholic, or Protestant would make the mistakes that Estes makes.

It is obvious that Estes is a fraud.

The real question is, Why does he seek to deceive in this manner?



You strain at a gnat and swallow a camel LOL!
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#43 Concerned

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Posted 29 August 2004 - 02:04 PM

>>>I do not believe that Estes ever was a Christian<<<

Come on Phoove, be real.

>>>But it is true that Christian faith has more intellectual substance than any other faith<<<

Now i would really want to hear about this. But for the time being i refrain from quoting anything.

>>>By contrast, a muslim who converts to Christianity must keep a low profile, since his own family and neighbors will be obliged by their muslim faith to murder him as an "apostate."<<<

Phoove, i have not dwelved deeply into this matter from the standpoint of Quran and Hadith since it is such a rarity ( i agree with Obmar), but now i will do so. But Quranic scholars do agree that apostates are liable to be killed but not by family mambers but the Islamic State and since no such state exists in the modern world, so there is no one to carry out the order. But definitely, anybody other than the State doing it, would be tried for murder.
An Islamic State is one which "fully" abides by the law of the Quran and Hadith and hence is a Kingdom of God in its own self. Anybody going against the Kingdom of God is liable to be killed, since he is a traitor, same as an american is liable to be killed for treason.

>>>He said that those who reject Islam should be killed and will be killed<<<

I dont remember saying anything as such but i am sure you would remind me of the post. Yes but i do remember saying that a muslim blaspheming against God, Prophet Mohammad (PB&UH) or Quran is to be killed (of which Salman Rushdie and Tasleema Nasreen is a prime example). They may sound like the same in most cases but cannot be treated as equal.

>>>Muslims claim they all use the same Koran, which is written in an easily understood and clear language <<<

Yes it is the most easily understood Religious Book in this whole world as compared to the complex notations, ambiguities and contradictions present in the Torah, Bible, Gita etc etc. You must always keep in mind that the English versions of the Quran are Transliterations and not Translations. And the Law of God can only be understood when the history of the Quran, the Quran itself and Hadith are read in conjunction and not in singularity.

>>>But muslims believe the Koran is "perfect," "complete," and "lacking nothing."<<<

We do not believe it but actually prove it. The Quran and Hadith gives the muslims the complete set of living instructions both of a spiritual and material nature. It is a wholly complete way of life as against the Torah which only give the practilities of the law and as against the Bible which only gives us the spiritual nature of the Law. That is why Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) is considered The Last Prophet and he completed Islam in all aspects.

>>>And a "Christian" who converts to Islam becomes an instant celebrity in the muslim world<<<

By that standards, 5% of the US population should have been celebrities by now.

And obmar can you enlighten me on "Gua caya lah lu". :D
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#44 obmar

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Posted 29 August 2004 - 10:34 PM

concerned, dont worry, it's the local slang to say, I have a lot of respect for you.

;)
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#45 obmar

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Posted 30 August 2004 - 12:01 AM

"A fifth of humankind follows Islam, the fastest growing and perhaps the most misunderstood religion on earth."

"Some 1.3 billion human beings-one person in five-heed Islam

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#46 obmar

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Posted 08 September 2004 - 12:31 AM

http://www.welcome-b.../springer.shtml


Quotes
My journey to Islam is, it safe to say, not the usual one. Most white converts I have met came from a liberal and very open background. My upbringing was far from this. Both of my parents were in the US military and my upbringing was very strict. My father was very racist, and because of this, I was very racist myself until about the age of 24. I can remember as a child listening to my father lambast and attack Arabs and Muslims and bash the religion, their way of life, and their race. As this was the way I was raised this is the position I took as well.

I had a very troubled childhood, as the above can only begin to describe. My father was an alcoholic and a very physically abusive man. I grew up with the constant fear of violence against myself, my mother, and my brother and sister. Coming from such a background it only seemed natural that I seek a group of people to replace the family life that I did not get at home. The problem is, with the way I was raised, the people I sought this companionship from were the worst of the worst.

For several years I was heavily involved in the racist skinhead movement. As with anything else in my life, I was not content to be a follower, but always enjoyed taking the lead, and my involvement in the neo-nazi skinhead movement was the same. I was well known and feared in the scene in the town where I grew up. My longing for family and friends, however, never killed the seed in my heart that what I was doing was wrong, that it was unjust. I remember a Mexican schoolmate of mine asking me when I was 16 "why do you hang out with those loosers, you are better than that." He was right, but I guess there was a part of me that, even though I hated my father for what he was doing to the family, that I wanted to be just like him. That is where my racism and hatred came from.

The situation at home became worse for me so I was forced to move out on my own. I think from this moment this is what sealed my future as a Muslim - getting away from my father, the hatred that he felt, and experiencing the world and people on my own. The next few years were pretty rough on me and I continued for many years on the path that I had started on. I was drinking, I was doing drugs and I was getting into very serious trouble with the law. All the while, all of the people I had sought to take the place of my family turned out to be the worst sort of people, violent, dishonest and untrustworthy.

I left the state I grew up in when I was 23 and for the first time in my life was able to experience life without the overwhelming figure of my father hanging over me and the malign influence of my friends. I started to see all of the carefully crafted lies my life was based on crumble around me. I slowly saw all of the truths that my life was based on unravel. It is at this point that I started to question everything in my life, including my religious beliefs. I took the stance that everything in my life was suspect and had to be reevaluated.

I had a girlfriend at the time whom I later married. She had also been active in the racist skinhead scene that I was involved with and there was always this worry that I offend her with my new
ideas and thinking. I had always been an avid reader, and I took the next couple of years to read everything I could get my hands onto. This passion of mine - reading - has lead me to collect a small library of books that now consists of over a thousand volumes, everything from Kant, Descarte to Ramadan and Edward Said.

During this time the Intifada was raging in Palestine. My father, racist and anti-Semite though he was, had always supported the Jewish state. I now think that he hated Jews, as well as any one else who wasnt white, but he hated the Arabs more than he hated the Jews, so that is why he supported Israel. As I was rethinking everything I was taught when I was younger I decided to take a closer look at this struggle in the Middle East.

I started reading general books on Middle Eastern history and the national politics of the area. Again and again I found that I was having trouble understanding both the history and politics of the area because I didnt have any sort of understanding about Islam. As a child I had attended church from time to time, but didnt have a firm grounding in any religion. My father had a hatred of Islam, so as a teen I had shared this hatred without having a clue as to what Islam was about or what Muslims believed. It goes without saying that I had never met a Muslim in my life.

So I started to look into Islam, its history and beliefs. This was when the internet was gaining in populatarity so I used both paper texts and sources from the internet to help me gain an understanding on the basics of Islam and its history. At this time I was living in Washington state and was not aware of a Muslim community there, so there was really no one I knew with whom I could talk to. Shortly after this my wife's job transfered her to England so this was all about to change.

When I got to England my interests strayed for awhile. I was in a new country with a long and rich history, so I spent a few years exploring this history and traveling all over Europe. But from time to time events would draw my attention back to the Middle East and the politics there. I was now in a country with a long standing and well established Muslim community, although the town I lived in didnt have any such community. I began now to read in ernest about Islamic beliefs, ideology, and history. I also started reading The Qur'an.

From the very begining some things struck a chord with me and answered doubts I had always had concering the religion I was raised in. I had always taken issue with the idea that God would ever have offspring. From my reading I recognised this belief as one pulled from pagan sources. Zeus, Odin, and numerous other pagan gods all had children. In the case of Odin, his followers even believed he hung on a tree, much like Christians believe that Jesus (PBUH) hung on a cross. Odinists, the name given to the followers of this ancient Northern European religion, also believed in a trinty of sorts formed by Odin, his son Thor, and his consort Freja. It was clear this innovation of the Christians did not have its basis in God, but in previous pagan beliefs.

The other issue that I had always struggle with was the concept of original sin. The idea that God could be so unjust as to hold myself and everyone else responsible for the sins of others who died thousands of years before me just seemed so unjust. I had a basic concept of God, and the idea He could be so unjust to do such a thing just did not sit well with me. It always seemed to me that Christians just didnt have the answer to these questions, and if they did, their answers just reinforced these unjust positions. I looked to Judaism, but that religion offered more questions than answers as well. Their attitude towards the prophets, peace be upon them all, was disgracefull. Their religious texts accused these greatest of men of the most terrible crimes and I refused to belive God would pick such men to lead his people on earth. If Judaism held such beliefs how could I look to them for guidance?
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#47 obmar

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Posted 08 September 2004 - 12:33 AM

It seemed clear that Islam had all of the answers. It cleared up the confusion of the lie of the trinity, and asserted Jesus'(pbuh) true role as a prophet, and not the son of God. Islam reveared all of the prophets, peace and blessings of God be upon them, and recognised them for the great people they were. In Islam, and the values it promotes, I saw the answer to my problems and questions, and the future of mankind. The issue was to now try to impliment Islam in my life.

I have said before, I had married a woman who came from the same background as I did. She didnt have an easy time dealing with my interest in this subject, whether it be Islam or Middle Eastern politics. I knew the way I needed to change my life to start living in a proper manner was going to cause us serious issues. It eventually came to the point where I would be unable to practice my new found religion and stay married to this lady, so we split up. Before I left England I went with a young Lebanese man I had met to London where I said my Shahada in a mosque there.

When I left my ex wife I was forced to leave England. I would have loved to have stayed there because the opportunity to learn about my new found religion there would have been great, but Alhamdulillah, I was to learn later why God chose this turn of events for me. I quickly got a job working for the US government in Alaska. Of course there is not much in the way of a Muslim community in Alaska, and what there is is centered in Anchorage and Fairbanks. I was working hundreds of miles from either of these cities, so I took the opportunity to continue reading and searching out information concering Islam the best I could, from the internet and other sources.

I traveled from time to time to the Washington DC area for business. I made friends here within the Muslim community. At this point I had been thinking about getting married. I had been divorced for several years and I knew that one of the main ways to fulfill your deen is marriage. I was a bit worried about this, being a convert. I know that many Muslims come from ethnic backgrounds that would not be too welcoming of a white American convert for their daughter. This was compounded further because I had tattoos that I had gotten as a teenager, and I was very uncertain that I would find a Muslim woman and her family that would accept me.

A new friend of mine said that he knew of a sister that was looking to get married as well, so he asked her if it was okay to give me her number. I tried to call her when I first got home, but she wasnt there so I left message. So the next day I called her back and we talked for hours. We exchanged e-mail addresses and for the next three days we talked for dozens of hours. We hardly slept those first three days. I got so little sleep I found myself falling asleep at work. We talked about all of the important things that we would need to know to make a successful marriage work.

It was clear from the begining that we had a lot in common, and that it all centered around our devotion to our faith and to God. I had this feeling that she was meant for me. She was such a good God fearing Muslim woman and she had so much she could teach me about the religion. Not only could she teach me religion, but she could help me with Arabic, as she is a native speaker. We talked on the phone and via e-mail for several months.

Talking and e-mails were wonderful, but we both knew that we had to meet each other face to face to see if the connection we had would transfer face to face. Always keeping God and our religion in mind we wanted to make sure we did everything Halal and in the proper manner. We decided, with the permission of her family, that I would visit during Ramadan of that year to join the family for dinner and the breaking of the fast. I was very nervous, and I think I had a right to be. There is one bit of information I have left out here and after I say this you will understand my nerves, my wife and her family are from Saudi Arabia, both parents were born in Makkah. My earlier fear of the cultural issues that any prospective wife and her family might have with me were compounded about 100% by this fact.
Trusting in God, and having a lump in my throat, I set off to meet this wonderful woman and what I supposed to be her intimidating family. I arrived in DC right before sundown and collected my bags and waited for a taxi. When it was my turn for a taxi I jumped in. The taxi driver was wearing a red and white checkered gutra, or Arabic headress. When I got into the taxi I greeted him with "Asalaamu Alaykum" and he returned the greeting. The sun had gone down and he was just breaking his fast with a date, he asked if I was fasting, and when I replied in the positive, he offered me one of his own dates to break my fast. It turned out this nice older gentleman was originally from Afghanistan. I saw this is a very positive sign.

After dropping off my luggage at my hotel I proceded to the family's house with a traditional gift of dates and incense in hand. As I got out of the taxi and started walking up to the door I just said "Bismillah" to myself and knew God would choose the best for me. All sorts of scenarios played through my mind. She would like me, but the family would hate me. The family wouldnt mind, but she would be indifferent. What if they liked me and I didnt like them? The 20 feet from the curb to the door seemed to be miles. Finally I got to the door and rang the bell.

What seemed to be a dozen people answered the door, family elders, people my age, sisters, sons, daughters, and family friends. I was warmly welcomed and asked to come into the house. After I entered I was asked to take off my shoes and join the family in the meal they had made for me. It turned out, Alhamdulillah, that I need not have been worried. The family and I took to each other instantly. In talking during the dinner and after it was clear that the nice young lady and I had a connection that transcended the miles and the phone line.

I came back to the DC area that January where we were married in front of friends and family. We took a nice honeymoon, and then I had to return to my work in Alaska which was not to finish until the end of April. When it finished I moved to the DC area where I took up a job with a division of my company here. I have been here almost two years now.

It is amazing, Subhan'Allah, how God led me from disbelief in a home filled with hate, and guided me to Him. At first glance it might seem that in my childhood house I couldnt have been farther from Allah, but I would argue that wasnt the case. Allah was always there looking out for me, He directed me through some dangerous and bad times to become the man and the Muslim that I am today.

People say that miricles do not happen today, but I would contend that my story proves them wrong.
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#48 Adam

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Posted 08 September 2004 - 04:17 AM

Nice try, but no cigar.

Why don't you try science fiction?
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#49 obmar

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Posted 08 September 2004 - 05:45 AM

Strengthen me, my lord,
for I am overcome with feebleness.
Ennoble me once more,
for I have been cast down.
Sustain me, Lord,
for I am impoverished.

-From the prayer book, "Al-Hizbul-A'zam"
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#50 obmar

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Posted 11 September 2004 - 04:11 AM

My plea is for understanding

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#51 Adam

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Posted 11 September 2004 - 06:03 AM

What this disciple of Christ feels about followers of Mohammed is sadness not hatred.
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#52 obmar

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Posted 11 September 2004 - 09:32 AM

I Really Care
(Author Unknown)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

She went home
Tired and exhausted
And disappointed.
I didn't ask them to give me their money you know,
She confided in a friend,
I only asked them to do good things
To be a true Muslim.

And her disappointment turned into sadness
It was so sad you know, She said,
I just want all of us to be better,
I want all of us to go to Heaven.

And her sadness turned into frustration,
Oh, they are ungrateful lot,
She said to her friend again,
After all that I have done for them,
After everything that I went through for them
They turned me down when I asked them to be with me.

And her frustration turned into anger,
They are stubborn, so stubborn, so ungrateful,
How could they turn their back when I asked them to be
A better Muslim?
They are very very very stubborn!

She whispered, and talked and cried,
I care you know,
She said to a friend,
I really care.

But don't you know?
asked a friend,
Allah will guide those He likes,
He will guide those He chooses.

Yes, I know,
she said,
But I really care
I really love them.

Yes dear,
Said a friend,
Not as much as Rasulullah care for his uncle,
who refused Islam till the end.
He was sad, dear, said the friend,
He wished for the better more than you do,
He loved his uncle more than you do to them,
But He didn't say things like you do now.

She thought about it in silent,
And thought about it again.

So she went out again,
and she came home,
Tired and exhausted,
But no longer disappointed.
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#53 obmar

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Posted 13 September 2004 - 07:15 AM

I love to read revert stories. It is amazing to me how people come to know love of Allah and the way of life in Islam, and how many come to the conclusion that Islam is the Truth out of many different ways of life. This is a miracle of our Faith.



Childhood
I was born and raised in West Virginia in a Christian Family. My father was a Jew. Needless to say we never talked much after my reversion to Islam, not that we really talked much before then. He and my mother divorced when I was only one. My older sisters said it was because I was born a female, and he wanted a male. I think he was a man that could not handle the responsibilities of his actions. So he left my mother with four daughters to raise and support without his help. Thus, we grew up very poorly. My father died in July of 2003 a Jew. He refused to talk to me during those last few years since I reverted to Islam. We did talk a little before then. I am afraid that when I was older and met my father, I did not like him as a man. My mother believed in God but also was a scientist of some sort. But, alhamdulillah, she believed in Charity and helping others. I came from a mostly Christian family that knew fear of God and practiced it to the best of their ability. In the area where I grew up, one would not even know what a Muslim is let alone seeing a woman walking down the street wearing hijab!
I started playing flute when I was only 5 and became a professional flute player when I was only 12. I also played many other instruments, such as oboe, saxophone etc. I even made good money playing in jazz groups and symphonies. My family never really had time for me. I was put off at my grandparents a lot, and since my grandfather was bed ridden, my grandmother never truly had time to care what I did. Fortunately for me, I never sought bad things. I was just busy with my flute and music. This was my life, and my only love in life.
My mother was a social worker; she was out saving the lives of many children who were handicapped or had mental disabilities. She got them out of abusive homes and placed them into safer homes. I was proud of her for that. But when I needed her as my own mother, she was just not there. I guess she could not save all the children in the world, so someone had to be left out. I basically raised myself.
The only thing that gave me love in this world was my flute, my music, and my many music teachers. I led, I am afraid, a life of no love and of not being wanted. My older sisters didn
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#54 obmar

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Posted 13 September 2004 - 07:17 AM

Reversion to Islam
About that time also, I met a Muslim lady who moved to our town. She gave me a few pamphlets on Islam, which I read. Although I did not revert, she did open up a door for me to the inside life of a Muslim. I liked how she practiced her faith by being nice and honest which she showed to all. She not only talked about Islam but also walked Islam! I am thankful to her - may Allah reward her greatly.
My daughter was in college at that time where she met some friends. After visiting Minnesota, she loved it there and liked the college where her friends went. Consequently, we also moved to that area. She moved first since I was in the middle of classes at my own college. (I went back to school when I had her almost raised and she did not need me quite as much). She met some Muslim people from Sudan, Pakistan and the UAE, and started studying Islam. By then, I too had been looking more and more into Islam. It was one of the religions I was studying. For one reason or another, I kept coming back to studying Islam and the Qur
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#55 obmar

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Posted 12 October 2004 - 02:12 PM

Waa'il (formerly Austin Roe)

"As I realize now, instead of these schools and parents putting their kids on Ritalin and other junk, they should put their time and money in studying Islam and teaching their children about Allah. When nothing else worked
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#56 obmar

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Posted 12 October 2004 - 02:15 PM

When I least expected it, there was a couple who offered to take me into their home and try to help me. They did not have children living at home, and so there would be no one for me to hurt. They would also homeschool me until my behavior got in check. Neither of them drank used drugs. They were not going to give me any drugs and promised to me that I did not have to go to a bunch of doctors unless I was physically sick. It was my last chance. I said okay and I was put on a plane and sent to their home. They picked me up from the airport. It was Jumaana and her husband Waseem. All of a sudden I felt different. Here was a new couple. The family back at my home already knew my routines, so they caught me right away every time I did something wrong, but these two did not know how I operated. At first, I tried to be loud and a real brat. I did a good job for a few days, reminding them both that they said I did not have to take all those drugs. They looked like they did not know what to do with me exactly but they re-assured me that their promise was good.

They had a room all ready for me when I arrived. The walls were pale blues, my favorite color. It had a blue carpet and blue drapes and even a blue bedspread. There was a desk, just for me to use, and even a small fish tank with fishes that swam in and out of the rocks. It had a light that stayed on all night. It was incredible. I never had anything like that for myself. I used to sleep on the floors on a blanket or on a couch in the living room before. As the days passed, the drugs were draining out of my body. It made me tired and drowsy most of the first few weeks and I slept a lot. I was ten years old but weighed only forty-eight pounds because the drugs make one too sick to eat. By the end of the first month, I gained several pounds and felt better than I had in a long time. I did not want to be put up with that stuff ever again. The following month, my homeschool box was delivered to the house and Jumaana began to teach me every day when Waseem was at work.

I could see how different it was in Jumaana
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#57 obmar

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Posted 12 October 2004 - 02:17 PM

My sister came and spent a week during her school break this last December/January. I had not seen her in over three years. She is fifteen now and flew here on her own to stay with us for the week. She was shocked at the changes in me. I had grown to five feet ten inches in height from being half her size when I left, which made me tower over her by almost a foot. I also outweighed her by fifty pounds, after having last been seen a scrawny skeleton of a kid. When I left I was wearing a Rugrats hat and Harry Potter clothes from television and cartoon shows. When she saw me this time, I was wearing a Kufi
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#58 Adam

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Posted 12 October 2004 - 03:09 PM

Total Posts: 57

User Posts

obmar 28
phoove 19
Concerned 5
babu 2
Adam 2
Nightmare 1

The numbers doth speak.
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#59 obmar

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Posted 12 October 2004 - 03:17 PM

does that in anyway reduce the message?
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#60 Adam

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Posted 12 October 2004 - 04:37 PM

The message, about which the truth is disputed, is not reduced; however, the degree of subjectivity of the messenger is surely on display, according to the numbers.
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