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#1 obmar

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Posted 09 February 2003 - 12:34 PM

People are like the teeth of a comb. You are all from Adam, and Adam is from dust. There is no superiority of white over black, nor of Arab over non-Arab, except by piety
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#2 obmar

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 04:03 AM

People are like the teeth of a comb.

You are all from Adam,
and Adam is from dust.

There is no superiority of white over black,
nor of Arab over non-Arab,

except by piety
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#3 Belrick

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 06:54 AM

So youre saying that one man carried genetic material for whites, blacks hispanics, Indians etc etc?

No of any others today like that? How many men do you know live to 970 years?
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#4 Concerned

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 09:19 AM

Belrick,
You sould not be questioning this since this corresponds partly to Evolution that you belive in. The question you should be asking is to then why muslims reject Darwanism since present day humans are different from Adam??

dcstrng
Regarding the last part. The Quran though meant for the whole of mankind but the original audience was Arabs. And at that time, Arabs were very proud of their heritage, their language which was at its zenith at that time and their customs. As such they used to look down upon non-arabs. Hence specifically the mention of the last part, as an emphasis on their own falsehood.
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#5 gadfly

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 11:58 AM

I think we'd need a definition of piety.
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#6 Patience

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 01:02 PM

I think that piety is exactly equal to the word conduct, behavior, demeanor.

Every action is recorded so that none shall be wronged. The concept that no soul carries the burden of another and that everybody shall see the atom's weight of good and evil that they did is the centerpiece of Islam. It ensures complete fulfillment of justice. What more do we need????

Peace
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#7 phoove

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 01:35 PM

> justice. What more do we need????

Mercy.
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#8 Patience

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 01:50 PM

Mercy, of course we need it. Have you read "the oceans's of God's mercy have no shores." It has sufi origins. I am not a sufi and I do not support the separation from the world as some sufi orders prescribe, but I like some of their philosophical ponderings.

Unequivocally, the finall tally shall unquestionably merit the extent of mercy of each and every soul. That mercy will be judged. Again we would arrive at final Pravda - final Justice. What more do we need???

Peace
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#9 phoove

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 02:16 PM

There is a tension between mercy and justice. If mercy prevails, then justice suffers; but if justice prevails, then mercy vanishes.

In Christian theology, this tension is resolved by Jesus Christ, God in human flesh, paying the penalty for sin so that all humans can receive mercy--if they will humble themselves enough to accept and acknowledge God's gracious gift of forgiveness. But justice remains intact because God does not simply look the other way at sin, or sweep it under the rug, but rather demands just punishment for it--punishment that God, in his loving mercy, took upon himself on the cross, on our behalf.

I've read several books on Islam, but I have never received an adequate explanation of how Islam resolves the tension between mercy and justice. Is it something like the Catholic doctrine of purgatory?
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#10 Patience

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 03:24 PM

There is a tension between mercy and justice. If mercy prevails, then justice suffers; but if justice prevails, then mercy vanishes.

-----------
I totally disagree that there is any kind of tension between mercy and justice. Mercy is compassionate treatment, especially of those who are under one-s power; mercy is a disposition to be kind and forgiving; mercy is also something to which we are thankful and alleviation of our distress.

Justice is a fair treatment (opposite would be a preferential treatment of something or somebody) and the principle of equity and equality of all the entities (no soul is inherently better from another v every soul is equal).

Therefore, mercy is a tool, a vehicle on the path to justice. Mercy encourages justice. So phoove argues that there is a tension between mercy and justice. I totally disagree. As we can see from the basic definitions of these terms, mercy actually complements justice, as I will explain below.

Phoove then argues:
In Christian theology, this tension is resolved by Jesus Christ, God in human flesh, paying the penalty for sin so that all humans can receive mercy--if they will humble themselves enough to accept and acknowledge God's gracious gift of forgiveness.
-----
I wholeheartedly disagree. Paying a penalty or expiating for sins of another is neither just nor fair to both the one who is paying and to the one who committed a digression and needs reparation.

Phooe also says:
But justice remains intact because God does not simply look the other way at sin, or sweep it under the rug, but rather demands just punishment for it--punishment that God, in his loving mercy, took upon himself on the cross, on our behalf.

------
So under the Christian dogma, God actually decided that he couldn-t forgive unless his Son suffers. You say we need mercy. Of course we do. How then, if God is merciful and compassionate, how He could have allowed the suffering of his only Son? That is absolutely neither merciful nor just, neither toward his Son (as regarded in Christian dogma), nor to the one who made the transgression in the first place.

Any assumption that somebody else pays for the sins of another irrevocably tips the scales of justice. And where is Pravda in that?

Phoove asks how Islam resolves the tension between mercy and justice.

It is quite simple. As I explained above, there is no tension between mercy and justice. They are absolutely in concord with each other. Mercy serves as a vehicle, as a gift for every human being to achieve justice of his/her own soul. The mercy is embodied in the understanding that a human being and the human being alone, is responsible for all his/her actions. That actually fully explains the concept of free will. We have free to choose whatever we want. Almighty knows what path we will take. In the Noble Qur-an we are advised to take the path that would better ourselves and humanity in this life.

And I am not selective in that respect. A person may not call himself a Muslim, yet his actions may be more in tune with Qur-anic teachings, compared to some actions of Muslims in Muslim-majority countries where anti-Islamic practices are rife.

In any case, if God actually had sacrificed his Son, then indeed we are indebted, even burdened because of this sacrifice, because its effect is the abolishment of accountability for our actions.

Peace
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#11 obmar

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 03:37 PM

Originally posted by gadfly
I think we'd need a definition of piety.



piety = nearest to righteousness
piety = spending what you love for good deeds
piety = helping one another in goodness
piety = selling oneself to goodness
piety = fighting in the cause of righteousness
piety = not ascribing partners to the Creator
piety = dutiful toward his parents and not arrogant, rebellious
piety = purity and devout and consistent
piety = devotion of the hearts
piety = restraint from evil, receiving guidance
piety = having patience
piety = lowering voices and expecting forgiveness
piety = not conspiring for crime, wrongdoing and disobedience
piety = counseling of goodness and guarding (against evil);
piety = not denying truth
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#12 phoove

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Posted 20 August 2004 - 03:42 PM

> Justice is a fair treatment

Justice is a legal concept involving restitution and punishment for wrongs committed by morally responsible agents.

Imagine a country where the legal penalty for thievery is the amputation of the robber's hand.

Imagine, then, a juvenile delinquent--an orphan, perhaps, who robbed a series of mafia-owned businesses (let's say that these mafia mobsters were not known public offenders). The young robber is brought to a judge for sentencing. The judge cannot ignore the case; he is legally required to order an amputation.

But the judge looks upon the young man with compassion and mercy: he adopts the young man into his home, gives him education and proper nutrition and even a personal assistant to help him learn to cope with life and succeed. In addition, the judge offers his own hand to be amputated, in lieu of the young man's hand.

All sin is against God. All people are sinners, equally deserving of punishment. God has mercy on us, coming to earth as a human being--entering into our human condition--in order to demonstrate his love for us and to accept (within his very own self) the punishment that we so justly deserve.
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#13 Concerned

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Posted 21 August 2004 - 01:27 PM

Well i agree with both Phoove and Patience.

The Justice of Allah is unquestionable. The example of Phoove may be of mercy but not of justice. Similarly Patience has put all the reasoning into Justice.

Mercy of Allah is seen in everybody lives. There are millions of people in this world who do not belive in him and yet they are living happily. Is it not mercy??? And if they do not belive in him and do wrong to others, he does not kill them with a thunderbolt. Is it justice??? Mercy and Justice are intertwined.

Allah will give justice to everybody on the appointed day and no body will be harmed by even a hair.

12:56. Thus did We establish Joseph in the land that he might possess (settle or control) what part (in the manner, time and place) he pleases. We reach with Our mercy whom We will. We waste not the wages of those who do right

And yet we cannot be sure, even if we live our whole lives in piety and in prayers, that we will go to heaven.

3:132. And obey Allah and His Messenger, that ye may get mercy

At the end of judgement, it will be Allah's mercy that will take the believers to heaven. Good deeds although will count a lot but it will not be enough. And remember that even it is His mercy that he has set our minds to the right path.

4:176. Then those who believe in Allah, and take tight hold of Him, He will admit them into His mercy and Grace; and He will guide them to Himself by a Straight Way

If he takes away His mercy from us, there is nothing to stop Satan from doing his handiwork.

15:56. He said, "Who would despair of the mercy of his Lord save those who err?"

On the other hand, although His mercy dictates who goes to heaven and who goes to Hell but wrong doings cannot be ignored since it is against justice and it would be ungodly.

44:40. Assuredly the Day of Decision (or of Sorting) is the term appointed for all of them,
44:41. The day on which friend can in naught avail friend, nor can they be helped,
44:42. Save those on whom Allah has mercy; surely He is the Mighty the Merciful.

2:64. Then even after that did ye turn aside, and were it not for Allah's grace towards you and His mercy, ye would have been of those who lose.
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#14 phoove

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Posted 21 August 2004 - 06:56 PM

> The example of Phoove may be of mercy but not of justice

Concerned, why do you feel that the judge's free and gracious offering of his own hand for amputation (instead of the young thief's hand) is not just? The legal penalty for theft is hand amputation, and this penalty is, in fact, justly enforced.

At any event, the judge in this example represents the sort of God in whom Christians place their trust. Our God does not simply ignore sin; he takes upon himself the punishment that we deserve--all because he loves us so very much, and he wants us to love him in return.
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#15 Concerned

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 06:01 AM

Phoove,
You mistake the amputation of the hand as the punishment rather than the payment of the crime by the offender. Would it be just if the judge cut the hand of the monkey which the offender loved dearly??? A crime of one person cannot be taken upon by another. A person named 'A" kills a close relative of yours and when is found guilty, a person 'B' who is also a close friend of 'A' offers to be hanged instead of 'A'. Would you as the sole relative accept that or would you ask for the punishment to be metted out on 'A'.

Islam considers punishment a type of ablution from the crime. If an offender is punished for his crimes in this world, according to the law of Allah, and he seeks forgiveness from Allah, he will not be punished in the afterworld for this crime. In your case the judge as well as the offender will have to face charges on the day of judgement. The judge because he took upon himself the punishment and hence stopped the effective ablution of the offender and also because he did something that was not within his power while the offender will be punished for his crime.

A judge's duty is justice and not mercy. If he does not do that, he is liable for dereliction of duty.

I will not at this time argue with you on your last paragraph about "justice replaced" since it would branch out this thread. But i will say this, a father who pays for every wrong that his son does is not having mercy on his son but rather is putting his son in a very wrong path and he himself will be said that he is ignoring his son's sin and not atoning it.
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#16 phoove

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 12:14 PM

> A judge's duty is justice and not mercy. If he does not do that, he is liable for dereliction of duty.

Yes, that is true; however, all sin is against God. Fortunately for Christians, our God pays the penalty for our sins--if we acknowlege him and accept him as our God and Savior.

This doesn't give us a license to continue sinning, however, as the following parable shows:

Matthew 18:23-35 "For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. 24 "When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 "But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. 26 "So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.' 27 "And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. 28 "But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, 'Pay back what you owe.' 29 "So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you.' 30 "But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31 "So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 "Then summoning him, his lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?' 34 "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."
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#17 obmar

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Posted 25 August 2004 - 12:19 AM

I speak to those who honor the Lord,
and pray to Him constantly,
but cannot see Him.

Those who cleanse themselves of sin,
will be richly rewarded.
To God all creatures will return.

-Qu'ran, Fatir, Surah 35:18b
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#18 Concerned

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Posted 25 August 2004 - 08:15 AM

>>>all sin is against God<<<

Phoove, in Islam sins and rights can be broadly categorized in two areas depending upon who the wronged is.

One wrong is not obeying God in small or big matters. He can forgive all but not those who associate partners with him or attribute his characteristics to a person.

The second wrong is against another human or even an animal. Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) has said that unless the agrieved party absolves the wrong doer, God does not absolve him. But God bestows favours, a thousand times more, on those who forgive. The ultimate decision lies with the agrieved party whether they are willing to take favours a thousand times more or they are bent on revenge. And the people who will go to heaven will definitely chose the former option.

It is also mentioned that after all the people who are going to heaven have been separated from the people of hell, God will intercede for differences between them if they have any with each other. After this, the gates of heaven will be opened.

Secondly if as in christianity, as you explained, all sins are against God then the judge is even more wrong on showing mercy since he is not the wronged party and is effectively acting as God by having mercy on the offender when it is God who has the power to bestow ablution and mercy. I can have mercy on a person who has wronged me but you cannot show mercy to him on my behalf.
Simply against Justice and God is never unjust..
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#19 phoove

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Posted 25 August 2004 - 01:27 PM

> if as in christianity, as you explained, all sins are against God then the judge is even more wrong on showing mercy since he is not the wronged party

In my example, the Judge represents God.

God is our only Judge. And he looks out at a rabble of sinners--an earth full of mobsters and murderers--and realizes that we all deserve death. None of us lives up to the righteous standards of the Golden Rule and the Sermon on the Mount. Breaking any law is the same as breaking every law; we are all lawbreakers, guilty before a holy God.

So what is God to do? He cannot merely look the other way at sin; but yet the wages of sin is death.

So God in his love and mercy decided to take upon himself the punishment that we deserve, so that if we want to accept his free gift, he will adopt us into his family, give us a new heart for him, with his Holy Spirit to dwell in us and progressively sanctify us until our life on earth is over, and then we can spend eternity with him.

This is the God of the Christian faith.
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#20 obmar

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Posted 26 August 2004 - 02:48 AM

Originally posted by obmar
piety = nearest to righteousness
piety = spending what you love for good deeds
piety = helping one another in goodness
piety = selling oneself to goodness
piety = fighting in the cause of righteousness
piety = not ascribing partners to the Creator
piety = dutiful toward his parents and not arrogant, rebellious
piety = purity and devout and consistent
piety = devotion of the hearts
piety = restraint from evil, receiving guidance
piety = having patience
piety = lowering voices and expecting forgiveness
piety = not conspiring for crime, wrongdoing and disobedience
piety = counseling of goodness and guarding (against evil);
piety = not denying truth



do you have any additions to what is piety?
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