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#161 Reven

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Posted 29 March 2003 - 08:21 AM

Thank you 'beast' .


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#162 HarryOX4

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Posted 29 March 2003 - 12:21 PM

The following explanation of the development of laws may throw some light on the present debate:

"Then another said: "Moses, the greatest in Israel, suffered our forefathers to eat the flesh of clean beasts, and forbade only the flesh of unclean beasts. Why, therefore, do you forbid us the flesh of all beasts? Which law comes from God? That of Moses or your law?"
And Jesus answered: "God gave, by Moses, ten commandments to your forefathers. 'These commandments are hard,' said your forefathers, and could not keep them. When Moses saw this, he had compassion on his people, and would not that they perish. And then he gave them ten times ten commandments, less hard, that they might follow them. I tell you truly, if your forefathers had been able to keep the ten commandments of God, Moses would never have had need of his ten times ten commandments. For he whose feet are strong as the mountain of Zion, needs no crutches; but he whose limbs do shake, gets further having crutches, than without them. And Moses said to the Lord: 'My heart is filled with sorrow, for my people will be lost. For they are without knowledge, and are not able to understand thy commandments. They are as little children who cannot yet understand their father's words. Suffer, Lord, that I give them other laws, that they may not perish. If they may not be with thee, Lord, let them not be against thee; that they may sustain themselves, and when the time has come, and they are ripe for thy words, reveal to them thy laws.' For that did Moses break the tablets of stone whereon were written the ten commandments, and he gave them ten times ten in their stead. And of these ten times ten the scribes and Pharisees have made a hundred times ten commandments. And they have laid unbearable burdens on your shoulders, that they themselves do not carry. For the more nigh are the commandment to God, the less do we need; and the farther they are from God, then the more do we need. Wherefore are the laws of the Pharisees and Scribes innumerable; the laws of the Son of Man seven; of the angels three; and of God one."

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#163 HarryOX4

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Posted 29 March 2003 - 01:20 PM

Originally posted by Armageddon:

<<<Wherefore are the laws of the Pharisees and Scribes innumerable; the laws of the Son of Man seven; of the angels three; and of God one>>>

"Eh? I agree about the Pharisees and Scribes, but where do you get the rest from?"

I got it from a book called 'The Gospel of Peace of Jesus Christ' by Edmond Bordeaux Szekely. He claimed to have translated it from original texts that he found in the Vatican library.

There's a lot in it to substantiate his claim to the originality of the texts, it certainly makes a lot more sense than that drivel in the New Testament penned by fascist lowlife Paul and his corrupt mates.

How come the Essenes don't warrant a single mention in the whole Bible? They weren't exactly unheard of back then, were they?

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Posted 29 March 2003 - 02:59 PM

Another false gaspel. He claims to have translated it from some unnamed book of the vatican, which one nobody knows. Yet there are planty of errors in this, contradictions of real gospels. Like the ten commandments are hard...! That is a direct contradiction of the words of the Lord, who said: "My law is easy, and my burden light.


Quote : "Suffer, Lord, that I give them other laws, that they may not perish. "

Here, the author fails to recognise that the law was not specifically for Moses, the Hebrews, and the times he lived in, but for all mankind, and for eternity.

Qutoe: "Why, therefore, do you forbid us the flesh of all beasts?"

This plays into islam. Jesus said through Paul, there is no unclean meat. It further makes the Lord contradict himself.

Quote: "If they may not be with thee, Lord, let them not be against thee;... "

Again this is heretical. Nowhere is this corroborated in the bible.


quote: "...that they may sustain themselves, and when the time has come, and they are ripe for thy words, reveal to them thy laws.' For that did Moses break the tablets of stone whereon were written the ten commandments, and he gave them ten times ten in their stead."

Unsubstanciated, and contrary to established scripture. Moses got the whole law, not just ten commandments.




Quote: "And of these ten times ten the scribes and Pharisees have made a hundred times ten commandments. And they have laid unbearable burdens on your shoulders, that they themselves do not carry....

Looping back into the gospel.


For the more nigh are the commandment to God, the less do we need; and the farther they are from God, then the more do we need. Wherefore are the laws of the Pharisees and Scribes innumerable; the laws of the Son of Man seven; of the angels three; and of God one."
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#165 HarryOX4

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Posted 30 March 2003 - 12:17 PM

Well, I guess we could argue whose gospel is the real gospel till the cows come home, the fact is that the contents of 'The Bible' were decided by a committee formed by the enemies of Jesus and his followers, i.e. the Romans, centuries after his death.

Jesus said that heaven and earth would pass away before any part of the (Mosaic) Law would be changed, yet his good Catholic (and Protestant) followers eschew circumcision and indulge in pork, thereby getting it exactly wrong.

Ah, but Paul said this was ok so no problem there. Who was Paul to come along and refute the words of the Master? Some jumped-up bounty hunter who claimed a miraculous conversion and then stamped his pagan ignorance all over the New Testament, that's who.

Neither of you answered the point about why the Bible should be an Essene-free zone, doesn't that seem odd from a historical viewpoint?

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Posted 30 March 2003 - 12:55 PM

Didn't Maimonides soften the Mosaic for the gentiles...? Why is it OK for him, and not for the Lord to do so? It was not Paul who allowed pork, it was Peter who had the dream, which came from God. Paul only explained that circumcision does not make one a jew, but the heart. Circumcision is nothing when the heart is corrupt. And circumcision does not make one sinless but the Lord. So being a jew has nothing to do with rites and obedience to rabbis, but it has to do with acceptance of redemption and obedience to the law through love and humility. The essenes are liars, that's why they're not in the bible. The bible is a book of truth, not a book of lies. If the essenes had been included, all of it would be made a lie. We hate liars, that's why it was not included, and never will be.
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Posted 30 March 2003 - 02:41 PM

The law is forsaken today, as we speak. Lawlessness abounds. But the law will be restored, since it is the basis of the judgement that will befall mankind. The judgement being that any man who rejects the law of Moses will be killed without mercy (Hebrews 10-28). The conquering prince is the "other" messiah. There are two messiahs, one is Jesus, the man without sin, and the other is the man of sin, also referred to as Elijah, David the prince, Nabuchednezzer and Joshua. Zechariah 3-5 indicates that Joshua is a man with sin, therefore, cannot be referring to Jesus. The two messiahs, (Zech 4-14) are referring to Zerubabbel, who laid the foundation that is Jesus, and Joshua, the man whose sin is taken away, the man of sin. Joshua is the man with the white robe dipped in blood who comes out of the tribulation, and who gathers all the nations around Jerusalem, just prior to the coming of Christ.
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#168 Reven

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 03:49 AM

YES 'beast' ...WE HATE LIARS !!



"Camp Moses" is established (in real). "Barrio Mose's Law" is soon to get it's wellcome sign-board and first permanent live-in.
High up in the mountains where few dares to go.


I send you a greeting, Brother


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#169 Arvind

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 05:20 AM

Reven,

you have not left Wiccans yet?.
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#170 Reven

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Posted 16 April 2003 - 05:32 AM

Arvind,

NO, they are at present exposed to high risk(s) of being grilled on
slow fire.


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#171 Reven

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Posted 10 May 2003 - 05:23 AM

5'000 Wickans was killed by Eliah in one day. This time around
it will not be that less.

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#172 morganalefae

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Posted 10 May 2003 - 06:51 AM

Hi, It's morgana. I would like to ask all the Christians here some things:

Jesus advocates love for all, love of the Creator, love of yourself, love of others, correct? His teachings broken down to the bare minimums teach you to be respectful, compassionate, and loving, correct? Did Jesus ever say to another "repent or die, you nasty evil sinning ...." No, Jesus hung around the "worst" of people being nice to them, caring for them, and showing them His way...i.e. Loving Kindness and compassion.

Now, Here's my question: If this is what Jesus taught, and I as a Wiccan feel that love is the most important thing in the universe, I love others, I love myself, the earth, its creatures and plants and minerals and elements, I respect all the same and I worship and adore an "unnamed Source of Creation" am I not doing the same thing that Jesus himself advocated?

Tell me, What's "God's" real name? It never says. It gives terms that mean things that define Deity....but never an actual given name. So that, in my conclusion means "unnamed source of creation" and that is what you as Christians worship and that is what we as Wiccans worship also. We respect Jesus as the "way" or teacher of the Christian Faith...but I honestly do not think Jesus wanted anyone worshipping him, people called him "father" as a term of respect as much as rabbi is to Jews.

I feel that Deity is both male and female, and how can you say that the creatrix is not both? Do you know for sure? It is based upon basic fact that life is both male and female polarity to bring about balance, and since we are all....not just men, but women too, made in the image of "God (i.e. unnameable source of creation) then perhaps we as Wiccans aren't so crazy after all.

What is repentance anyways? It's being sorry for acting in a less than caring way in any sort of manner whether it is murder, stealing, lying, or just being downright rude. Repentance has nothing to do with faith or religion, it has to do with being a mature, responsible human being. If you begin to see that everyone and everything is a piece of the Divine you will no longer see the fun in acting badly. Your behavior will change accordingly and you will begin automatically treating others as spiritual souls and giving them the respect they deserve. You will see all of life as sacred. True repentance is changing your VIEW not just saying "oh i'm sorry for lying" and then go to do it again.
You must completely stop or at least try to stop habitual wrong behaviors to even consider yourself repenting. Now, how many of you here have started working so hard on yourself so that YOU not others, may become kind, patient, loving, respectful, and able to see the Divine spark in all the living? Hmmm...Well, Raise your hands I'm waiting to see how many are doing this.....This is the "way" Jesus spoke of. It is the "way" to love: changing your inner self so that you may shine as the light he intended you to be. If your lamp is clouded by judging emotions, anger, fear, and vengeance, how can you do anything but promote exactly the opposite of what jesus wants you to do?

I have thought at length about if I'm on the right path. I have come to the conclusion after many years that yes I am, the right path for me to find the love and caring that I want so much to give to others and perhaps try to heal parts of this hurting world.

I figure if I get to Heaven and I'm at the gates and I was all wrong, I am going to ask whomever I see first why I am bound for hell when I promoted and lived every single thing God put out for us to do. When I get to hell and the devil asks me why I'm there my reply is: "well I guess I loved the wrong way somehow."

Love is the way, it is the light of the soul. How brightly does yours burn?

Blessed be
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#173 Reven

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Posted 10 May 2003 - 06:57 AM

Morgana,

Jesus was a follower of The Law of Moses. Lived under the same and confirmed the law.

He also turned would be robbers on his party's travel to another town to PIGS, when they attacked his followers.

Jesus respected the Law and so should we do.


Greetings from


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#174 morganalefae

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Posted 10 May 2003 - 07:15 AM

Hiya Reven! Nice to meet you.

My thoughts on Jesus following the laws of that era are this: He followed the laws showing others that they must abide by their culture's laws as well. I do. I haven't ever done a thing wrong, not even a speeding ticket. *knock on wood* :)

It was not a "law" to follow God, it was basically you followed what the others in that culture did or ....well, ELSE!

When Jesus came to Earth he threw out the laws of old in return for his "way" of love. That's what it used to be called, the way of love. He said above all these is love. He also said do as i do. He prayed, gave thanks for his meals, and followed most of the laws of the area to a T. He was respectful to his captors when they came to kill him on a cross. He did not argue, throw spite, but instead showed loving kindness by praying for them. He hung out with anyone who'd have him more or less, and was just all around nice. He was extremely spiritual and a guiding light of hope for all.

His new testaments were to tell people that it is better to love and to love well, than to follow any precepts or tenets set down in the days of moses, look for yourself it's in the Bible.

He held God above all else and was good to everyone.

This is the example of Jesus that I love so dearly. He is a fine example of living the spiritual life on earth. And I am glad to have read his words and deeds and to know them. It's an honor.

So if I've misunderstood your post on law, please explain it to me.

Blessings,
Morgana
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#175 Reven

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Posted 10 May 2003 - 08:34 AM

Hello Morgan !

Well, we don't agree on this. Jesus honored the Law of Moses and He never did trow-out the same.

Many Christians are confused when they confront the issue of the Law of Moses. How binding is the Law on the Christian? Some have said that Jesus abolished the Law of Moses. I would have to disagree, based on the following passage spoken by Jesus Himself:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets:

I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (Matthew 5:17)


We can safely assume, that Jesus meant, "to develop the full potentialities of The law" when He said "fulfil."


Greetings to my Brothers and Sisters



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Posted 10 May 2003 - 12:41 PM

Hi Reven, how goes the batttle?

I'm gald you're doing OK. One day, your camp will join my camp, and the two will be one. I will establish my camp in Jerusalem, on Mt.Zion. When I go. There I will build the house of the Lord, when the day for bulding the house comes.
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#177 morganalefae

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Posted 10 May 2003 - 05:54 PM

Reven, could you explain yourself a little more about jesus' following the law and fulfilling it? I'm very interested in this.
I would appreciate it.

Thanks,
Morgana
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#178 Guest__*

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Posted 10 May 2003 - 06:15 PM

To know that Jesus followed the law, you have to know the law.

Do you know the law?

What is the first commandment?
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#179 racegal

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Posted 10 May 2003 - 06:37 PM

I know the question was'nt for me Beast but,

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

That is law.
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Posted 10 May 2003 - 06:47 PM

I know you do, but if she knows the law, why is she breaking the first commandment?

If she thinks it's all hogwash, then she don't give a rat's arse about Jesus.
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