Mujahedin freedom fighters taking control of Baghdad, fascists on the run
Posted 13 April 2003 - 07:10 AM
Slozio bih se sa gospodinom Mesicem da je napad na Dubrovnik, sve da je bila rijec i o klasnicnom ratu, bio varvarizam prvog reda. Pa, vi znate da je Hitlerov general htio da digne Pariz u vazduh, pa su se nasli neki mudri ljudi da kazu - ne. To je bio jedan varvarski cin. Moglo se sa Hrvatskom ratovati, ali pametan covjek ne bi gadjao Dubrovnik, jer zna da ce od toga imati samo stetu, uzasnu stetu. Sada da odgovorim na vase pitanje. Znate, onaj svjesniji dio gradjanstva s nelagodnoscu govori o tom nesrecnom pohodu na Dubrovnik, ali u Crnoj Gori ima i polupismenih ljudi zavedenih seseljevskom retorikom. Da li se sjecate kako su izgledali ti ljudi koji su isli na Dubrovnik. Sto bi kazala braca Hrvati, imali biste za njih samo sucut. Njima je pricano o caru Lazaru, o mitovima, mosti svetog cara Lazara vec su bile obisle sve krajeve srpske. Znate vec te price - obnavlja se carstvo, cuda se rade. Treba Krlezu citati koji sada, na zalost, u Hrvatskoj nema bas veliku prodju. Treba se sjetiti Krlezine balkanske krcme. Mitovi, mitovi. Momku koji je slusao oceve i djedove gusle receno je da se ide na nekakve Latine, na nekakav Vatikan. Nije kriv onaj nesrecnik koji je rusio kuce po Konavlima misleci da pravi veliku stvar za svoju vjeru, za svoj narod, za svoje srpstvo. Nego, treba da idemo idemo u centar stvari, da vidimo odakle je to krenulo, ko je dao ideolosku podrsku Slobodanu Milosevicu. Necu sada da pominjem neke velike kuce, bez kojih on ne bi mogao biti ono sto je. Sve ce to istorija, nadam se, staviti na svoje mjesto. Glavno je da u Crnoj Gori sazrijeva uvjerenje da bi, kada bi se moglo, najbolje bilo taj pohod na Dubrovnik zaboraviti, da ga nema uopste u svijesti crnogorskog naroda.
Posted 13 April 2003 - 07:18 AM
There are still two multiethnic countries in Europe (of course Bosnia being split along ethnic lines doesnt count). Serbia and Russia. All the Croats, Bosnians, Albanians, Hungarians, Turks and etc who were against fascism had to run for their lives to Serbia, the only place they can live in the former Yugoslavia.
Serbs have always fought against fascism. Insofar as the Bosnians, Croats, Albanians, Turks and etc......the facts speak for themself.
As Das Kapital ranks along side "holy books" like the Bible and Koran, I wonder if such nonsense as Adam Smiths "Wealth of Nations" is also a "holy book"? Or is it too hollow and simplistic? If this were the case how could the Bible be considered a holy book?
you know very little about the Balkans and its history. I think you are one of those pathetic western, rich people who have nothing better to do than whine about the decay of modern society, and then find their own "barbarians" whom they could call "the saviors of humanity" and cheer for them as they fight other "barbarians" and the "evil enemy" in the form of western imperialism or something of the kind. As long as there is at least one "noble barbarian" left, that is. I know your kind. We Bosniaks have our own "admirers", Croats have their own, and as we can all see so do the Serbs. There is a very good article about your kind by a Serb writer which I will find, translate and post here.
History of the Balkans is a bit more complicated than what you might think. I don't know where you get your information about people running to Serbia, but they usually run to USA, Canada, Australia, western Europe etc. I have a sister in Australia, cousins in Netherlands and Switzerland, friends in Sweden, Italy, Spain and Germany, but I have none in Serbia. I'm no fascist nor a mujahedin, by the way.
Speaking about Das Kapital, do you know what Marx said about the Serbs?
Posted 13 April 2003 - 07:36 AM
(btw, the text on this link itself is mostly worthless Serb propaganda, I'm just leaving it here because of these quotes below)
Yugoslavia was regarded as marginal, peripheral, the "backwater of Europe", on the periphery of Europe, not vital to any US interests, not part of the so-called Western civilization and culture, not part of "enlightened Latin Christendom", but backward, Byzantine, alien. Karl Marx termed the Balkan peoples "ethnic trash". His colleague Friedrich Engels dismissed Serbs, Bulgarians, and Greeks as "robber riff- raff".
If you speak Serbian, there's much more here:
ZA?TO SU MARKS I ENGELS MRZELI SRBE
(Why Marx and Engels hated the Serbs)
Pi?e: Radovan Toma?evi?
Kneza Mihaila, Marks i Engels prezrivo su nazivali" obi?nom ruskom kreaturom"; knjaz Milo? za njih je bio "stari ?ti?enik austrijskih reakcionara"; Srbi su spadali u narode koje je "tok istorije nemilosrdno zgazio", bili su za njih pre "otpadak naroda" nego prava nacija; Crnogorci su "homerovski varvari" sli?ni "trijerskim ostarelim klipanima", srpska vojska ?e posle poraza od Turske morati da krene "mar? nazad u svoju hajdu?ku jazbinu"; na Balkanu treba pustiti krv"; Srbi se di?u ali ?e "sre?om dobiti batine!"(sre?om!); da bi, najzad, Engels uskliknuo da sa Slovenima (koji su izdali revoluciju) treba da bude " neumoljiva borba na ?ivot i smrt" i to borba "do istrage" koja podrazumeva i "bezobzirni terorizam". Engelsov poziv na "bezobzirni terorizam" tako ?e prethoditi Hitlerovoj naredbi "sto za jednog"!
Marks i Engels imali su u Srbiji status polubogova, u nebesa su ih uznosili i oni koji ih nikad a nisu ?itali. A ono ?to su pisali o Srbima, gurano je "pod tepih". Prosto je neshvatljivo da Srbi tako nekriti?ki "zavole" one koji su ih otvoreno mrzeli. U svojim tekstovima, Marks i Engels o Srbima pi?u s omalova?avanjem i prezirom, pa ?ak i s pako??u i mr?njom. Poneki, specijalno Engelsov, ?lanak, ?ak je i stidno ?itati - bljuju iz njihovih redova jevtine ?ovinisti?ke, pangermanske, malogra?anske predrasude o Slovenima kao "istorijskom otpadu", o narodima pozvanim da stvaraju istoriju i civilizaciju, i o narodima "koje ?e zgaziti to?ak istorije"... Neki njihovi citati pre li?e na rasisti?ke citate iz "Majn Kampfa", nego na re?i "tvoraca nau?nog socijalizma". Srbi su im bili "krivi" zbog te?nji da se oslobode od vlasti svojih "legitimnih gospodara" (ba? taj izraz!) Turaka, u ?emu su Marks i Engels videli otvaranje puta za rusku invaziju ka Zapadu (!). A Ruse su toliko "voleli" da se Engels usudio da napi?e kako je "mr?nja prema Rusima" bila i bi?e "revoluionarna strast" Nemaca (!)
Posted 13 April 2003 - 07:54 AM
I couldnt read your entire post. It was just such nonsense i couldnt bear it.
"No working class only employees if you want to be Kiko"? This is plainly absurd. You will have to do better, this is what I would expect from Skyraz!!
One is forced to sell his labour power to the capitalist or one will be homeless and destitute. In more civilised countries the capitalist cant throw the worker on the scrap heap as soon as profits fall butin USA they can. This is because the USA working class is so impotent and weak, completely at the mercy of the capitalists.
I have never stated thatin a capitalist society one cant start from nothing and become rich. I have stated that fact that for every person who "makes it", 200 will crash and burn. 20 years ago it was 1 in every 100 and 10 years ago it was 1:150. If capitalism isnt destroyed it will be 1:300 in another 10 years.
Dont you ever wonder why life was so much easier for workers in the 1970s despite massive advances in productivity? If you are interested the answer is to be found precisely in Das Kapital by Karl Marx.
Of course its not as bad for workers everywhere yet but where it isnt it will be unless capitalism is destroyed.
Using Bill Gates as an example for your basic analysis is completely absurd! He is a classic example of the waste and uselessness of capitalists. He bought MS-DOS from a pair of brothers who invented it in their garage. He then sold the rights to its use, made a lot of money, hired a bunch of computer engineers to design windows and has since used his immense capital to thwart innovation and supress the creative ability of up to millions of workers.
On the subject of Bill Gates I find it astonishing how American workers like to celebrate his weath. Do you celebrate his wealth Kiko?
I recall a pamphlete by V. I. Lenin called
"How to Organise Competition":
Bourgeois authors have been using up reams of paper praising competition, private enterprise, and all the other magnificent virtues and blessings of the capitalists and the capitalist system. Socialists have been accused of refusing to understand the importance of these virtues, and of ignoring "human nature". As a matter of fact, however, capitalism long ago replaced small, independent commodity production, under which competition could develop enterprise, energy and bold initiative to any considerable extent, by large- and very large-scale factory production, joint-stock companies, syndicates and other monopolies. Under such capitalism, competition means the incredibly brutal suppression of the enterprise, energy and bold initiative of the mass of the population, of its overwhelming majority, of ninety-nine out of every hundred toilers; it also means that competition is replaced by financial fraud, nepotism, servility on the upper rungs of the social ladder.
Far from extinguishing competition, socialism, on the contrary, for the first time creates the opportunity for employing it on a really wide and on a really mass scale, for actually drawing the majority of working people into a field of labour in which they can display their abilities, develop the capacities, and reveal those talents, so abundant among the people whom capitalism crushed, suppressed and strangled in thousands and millions.
Written: December 24-27, 1917
Anyway Kiko, on a personal note, I suggest you get out of the residential real estate market in USA ASAP. This market I beleive has recently gone into decline and wil lcontinuie to decline for several years at least.
Posted 13 April 2003 - 07:59 AM
I'm sorry but I'm lost after your post.
I'm sorry for not undrstanding your voice.
I do want frunze to see my last post so I shall put it forth again:
I feel like I'm in the twilight zone.
My parents sold boats.
Capitalists ! Let's dig them up and kill them !
I like to fix up ugly houses and sell them for a higher price than I paid for them.
Guilty of capitalism I am ! How evil it is for a man to follow a dream for a better life.
The worker class ?
There is no worker class my friend. You are an emplyee only if you want to be.
In America, there is a thing called upward moblility. One can even build a small fortune from very little.
There you might learn how one can start from ground zero to build something.
Go to the main forum. Read the free articles.
Come to America. Don't worry, we won't kill you if you are a stalinista, we are not afraid of other ideas. This isn't the USSR you know.
We are only limited by our work ethic, imagination, and , of course, lady luck.
You seem to want to put people on trial for wanting to start a business.
But that happens to be the only way new products (like the computer you own) get produced.
Why murder these people ?
Bill Gates started with next to nothing.
People working to make themselves worthwhile to other people for a profit (capitalism) is the only way things get better for all. My computer would be a pile of crap otherwise.
Self interest, as ugly as it sounds, makes more sense than working one's b@lls off to gain little.
When gaining little is the end-game ------- not much economic activity takes place.
Standards of living are low for all -- exept for the communist political bourgeoise.
BUT THERE SHOULD NOT BE A BOURGEOISE IN A WORKERS PARADISE SHOULD THERE ?
How did stalin live ?
He is guilty of living like a king while millions suffered and died.
Let's dig him up and put him on trail for the betrayal of the state which marx and lenin fought for.
I always thought that in communism there were to be no class distinctions - all were to live the same?
Right , Frunze ?
What B_LLSHIT !
At least in America we are honest w/ourselves and know better.
Some are born to wealth, but a larger number gain financial freedom by being imaginative, always learning something new and hardworking very hard.
Free people gain similar status of that of the inherited class by putting their chips (balls) on the table ------ and winning.
Millions do it every year.
And in my world, the inherited class comes in second to the self made class.
Come here and join us. The water is warm, come on in.
nontheless, you could come to the U.S. and be accepted just like *Frunze would be.
The point I keep making with stalinist frunze is that he would do better in freedom than in tyranny.
Common sense, no ?
Posted 13 April 2003 - 08:01 AM
I cant understaand the first paragraph, it appears to be the raving of a madman.
Insofar as Yugoslavs being against fascism running to USA, Canada, Australia and etc you are mistaken on two points.
1. Im not talking about the closing days and weeks of WW2. Im talking about the recent conflicts there.
2. In the closing days and weeks of WW2 it was precisely the fascists who ran for their lives to USA, Canada, Australia and etc.
Posted 13 April 2003 - 08:02 AM
calm donw buddy. I am not sure how much others know about Balkan history but you cannot sell me anything that stinks like propaganda. If Muslims of Bosnia were supportive of multiethnic country they would not try to leave Yugoslavia - the only nonmuslim country in the world that had president and prime minister muslims. If you believe that muslims had right to leave Yugoslavia - I will agree with you under one condition - the same right should be given to Croats and Serbs in Bosnia. I have several friends who are real Sarajevo citizens and happen to be muslims - you should talk to them about what they think about your "leaders".
Posted 13 April 2003 - 08:04 AM
you can call me a madman, you can call me a barbarian and you can call me a terrorist. The fact is that I simply don't give a fook. But you still don't know shiitt about the Balkans, its history or its people.
1. Im not talking about the closing days and weeks of WW2. Im talking about the recent conflicts there.
So, you are teaching me what happened in my country? Maybe I should call my sister and tell her that city she's living in is not Adelaide, but Belgrade?
Posted 13 April 2003 - 08:12 AM
Same goes in your direction, mate.
If Muslims of Bosnia were supportive of multiethnic country they would not try to leave Yugoslavia - the only nonmuslim country in the world that had president and prime minister muslims.
BS. Communists with muslim names. Truely religious muslims didn't have a chance of getting into any important administrative post. And Mladi Muslimani you seem to forget as well. The fact is that everything in Yugoslavia was Serb dominated. Administration, army, police. We in Bosnia were just a place where you could put your heavy industry. And you forget that Alija went a long way to try to stop Yugoslavia from breaking up. But Yuga without the Croats ain't Yuga, it's Serboslavia, and you know it. We had no choice but to leave.
If you believe that muslims had right to leave Yugoslavia - I will agree with you under one condition - the same right should be given to Croats and Serbs in Bosnia.
Bosnia has a history of continuity in these borders long before any Yugoslavia existed, so it's not that simple. But, if we do apply your principles, same goes for Bosniaks in Sanjak, Croats and Hungarians in Vojvodina, Vlachs in eastern Serbia, and of course Albanians in Kosovo. And of course the same goes for Basques, Catalonians, Corsicans...you know the drill.
Btw, in case we did have a referendum about Bosnia's existence, over 50% would say yes. 46-48% Bosniaks plus about 5-10% Serbs and Croats who are pro-Bosnian.
I have several friends who are real Sarajevo citizens and happen to be muslims - you should talk to them about what they think about your "leaders".
Which leaders? I'm no fan of Alija myself. Doesn't mean anything in terms of my opininion about events in Yugoslavia.
Posted 13 April 2003 - 08:15 AM
I merely stated the fact that at the end of WW2 the fascists of Yugoslavia fled to USA, Canada, Australia and etc and in the recent conflicts, non-Serbs for a multi ethnic Yugoslavia and against the flagrant (and to a large extent, self-proclaimed) fascism of Izaboric and Tudjman had to run for their lives to Serbia where they live in peace.
It goes without saying what side US/NATO was on and what side Russia was on despite the hateful regime of Yelstin.
As I said, Serbs have always fought against fascism. I suspect they will never change and thats what makes them a great people.
Posted 13 April 2003 - 08:19 AM
I suggest we leave all contracts in place in Iraq.
No carpetbaggers allowed this time!
We did go there to eliminate WMD...right?
When I say we, I refer to the middle class and poor only.
The rich again have failed to make the show.
Posted 13 April 2003 - 08:24 AM
True. Canada is full of Serbs - chetniks who fled at this time. Australia and Argentina full of Croats - ustashe.
non-Serbs for a multi ethnic Yugoslavia and against the flagrant (and to a large extent, self-proclaimed) fascism of Izaboric and Tudjman had to run for their lives to Serbia where they live in peace.
I really don't know how to say this - THIS IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE. Apart from maybe 1-2 isolated cases, this didn't happen. Serbia was very nationalist at the time (although Belgrade is a special case). Recetly Serb nationalists in Belgrade robbed, beat and roasted on fire for 4 hours a Gipsy muslim just for being a dark-skinned Gipsy (they didn't know he was a muslim as well, they would have probably killed him). This is living in peace??? You haven't got a clue, mate.
Btw, it's Izetbegovic, not Izaboric. And he ain't no fascist. Though some of the things he did I don't like any more than you do.
As I said, Serbs have always fought against fascism. I suspect they will never change and thats what makes them a great people.
Serbs, when they don't turn into animals killing everybody around, really can be a great people. And they have suffered a lot. But they do have their dark pages in history, as well. First country to proclaim it had finished the extermination of the Jews was the fascist vasal state of Serbia under Nedic.
Posted 13 April 2003 - 08:44 AM
You mean to say they didnt flee to Serbia, only to the capital city of Serbia? I can agree with that even though it doesnt really make sense. About the Gypsie, can you provide some evidence of this? I must admit, I think you are lying and even if you arent, Im sure he wasnt killed as a result of belonging to an ethnic minority even with the present regime in place.
Serbs were the first and only people to turn en-mass and fight against the Nazis and their lackeys without the help of the Red Army and its a well known fact that they risked their lives to hide Jews, including Albright.
Perhaps they are regretting that now, after what has happened.
Im going to find examples of the flagrat fascism espoused by Izetbegovic. Not today but in the next few days. I suggest you start a new thread to disscus this. Here I am discussing with Kiko the decay and historical dead-end capitalist economy represents.
Posted 13 April 2003 - 08:48 AM
Belgrade's Anti-Masonic exhibition of 1941-42
Nazi Germany occupied most of Yugoslavia by April 1941. After a Serbian uprising of July 1941, Gen. Hermann Bohme, was given emergency powers to govern the country. SS - Gruppenfuhrer Harold Turner and SS Untersturmfuhrer Fritz Stracke handled the administration of Serbia.. Milan Nedic was the "nomial" local ruler, comparable to the collaborationist regime of Quisling in Norway.
Under the Nedic regime a heavily anti-semitic "Grand Anti-Masonic Exhibition" opened in occupied Belgrade on 22nd October 1941 and ended January 19, 1942. It was funded apparently by the German occupiers and supported by Nedic to intensify hatred against the Jews, although the title of the exhibit suggested the Masons (Masonic Orders had been closed in Germany). While Nedic was a supporter of the German plan for extermination of the Jews, Serbian partisan groups often tried to save Jews from victimization. The history of this period is complex, filled with mutual accusations regarding the role of perpetrators and rescuers.
The central theme was an alleged Jewish-Communist-Masonic plot for world domination, similar to propaganda once put out by the Tsarist secret police before the Russian revolution in the well-known forgeries The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Besides the exhibits at the exhibition, an enormous amount of propaganda material was prepared: over 200 thousand various brochures, 60 thousand posters, 100 thousand flyers, 108 thousand of samples of 9 different types of envelopes, 176 propaganda movie clips, four different postage stamps etc. Organizers advertised that "This concept of exhibition will be unique not only in Serbia and the Balkans, not only in southeastern Europe and Europe, but in the world."
The images on the posters shown in the exhibition were hardly new, and had been seen before in Germany during "The Eternal Jew" exhibitions in Munich and Vienna during 1937-1939. Serbian newspapers such as Obnova (Renewal) and Nasa Borba (Our Struggle) praised this exhibit, proclaiming that Jews were the ancient enemies of the Serbian people and that Serbs should not wait for the Germans to begin the extermination of the Jews. A few months later, Serbian authorities issued postage stamps commemorating the opening of this popular exhibit. These stamps, which juxtaposed Jewish and Serbian symbols (but did not contain Nazi symbols), portrayed Judaism as the source of world evil and advocated the humiliation and violent subjugation of Jews. The 20 posters shown here give a sense of the vile flavor of the exhibition and the theme of Jewish domination. Of special interest is the material showing alleged Jewish domination of the American Press and "Finance," particularly control of The New York Times.
This type of anti-Semitic propaganda is useful for seeing how art and propaganda posters in particular can help create the "other." Jews were both capitalists and communists at the same time, and the alleged secret force that dominated all aspects of European, indeed world economic life. Norman Cohn has described this as a "warrant for genocide."
Speaking of Jews, the government of General Nedic shortly afterwards organised the famous "Grand Anti-Masonic Exhibition". The exhibition was opened on 22nd October 1941 in Belgrade and the central theme was the Jewish-Communist-Masonic plot for world domination. Besides the exhibits at the exhibition, a great amount of propaganda material was prepared: over 100 thousand various brochures, about 60 thousand posters, 100 thousand flyers, 108 thousand samples of 9 different types of envelopes, over 100 movie clips, four different postage stamps (left) etc. Organisers of Exhibition proudly announced: "This concept of exhibition will be unique not only in Serbia and the Balkans, not only in Europe, but in the world."
Nationalist newspapers such as "Obnova" ("Renewal") and "Nasa Borba" ("Our Struggle") praised this exhibit, explaining that the Jews were the ancient enemies of the Serbian people and that Serbs should not wait for the Germans to liberate them from the vicious influence of the Jews. A few months later, Serbian authorities issued postage stamps commemorating the opening of this very popular exhibit. These stamps, which juxtaposed Serbian national symbols portrayed Judaism as the source of the world evil.
As a result, in August 1942, Dr. Harald Turner (the chief of the German civil administration in Serbia) announced that Serbia was the only country in which the "Jewish question" was solved and that Belgrade was the "first city of a New Europe to be Judenfrei." Turner himself attributed this success to Serbian help. The fight against destructive Jewish influence had actually started six months before the German invasion when the government of Serbia issued legislation restricting Jewish participation in the economy and university enrolment.
Posted 13 April 2003 - 08:51 AM
first you wrongly assumed that I am a Serb and that show how much you ar blinded by prejudice. But, that is not surprise to me after reading your postings. Would you please just do one thing right - explain to all of us here who are Bosnjaks? I know what is your answer gonna be but I want you to say that publicly. So, please tell us mate
Posted 13 April 2003 - 08:51 AM
It appears as though you are a loser.
Only a negative thinker would go on and on about losing like it was predetermined.
Learn something usefull to other people.
Learn how to build a business.
Get yourself some lawyers and accountants to help you.
You may win, you may lose; but that is a human right that no half-@ssed government should take away from you.
If you shrink from competition, so be it.
We are not all wimps.
Posted 13 April 2003 - 08:55 AM
At the end of the war Serbs made up 44% of the Partisans. Leader of the partisans was a Croat. Muslim participation in Partisans was around 4%, which is not bad considering that at that time we made up 7-8% of the total population of Yugoslavia.
We fought on all sides, ustashe, partisans, some even in chetniks. Had no other goal then to servive in that hell. Being a people of hardly a million at the time, we could have easily dissapeared if we hadn't played along.
You mean to say they didnt flee to Serbia, only to the capital city of Serbia?
No, I mean to say there was no large-scale flight of non-Serbs to Serbia, but Belgrade is generally more tolerant and multi-cultural than the rest of Serbia.
About the Gypsie, can you provide some evidence of this? I must admit, I think you are lying and even if you arent, Im sure he wasnt killed as a result of belonging to an ethnic minority even with the present regime in place.
He wasn't killed, he was badly burned. And I will repeat, I don't give a fook whether you think I'm lying or not. If I find the article, I will post it.
I suggest you start a new thread to disscus this. Here I am discussing with Kiko the decay and historical dead-end capitalist economy represents.
I have no problem with this thread. If you want a new one, go ahead and open it.
Posted 13 April 2003 - 08:59 AM
Slobo or Slobodan is a Serb name. You can't be Croat.
But, that is not surprise to me after reading your postings. Would you please just do one thing right - explain to all of us here who are Bosnjaks? I know what is your answer gonna be but I want you to say that publicly. So, please tell us mate
One of the constituent nations of Bosnia, along with Serbs and Croats. Mostly muslim, some atheist, very little catholic.
0 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users