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#101 AnotherEuropean

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Posted 14 April 2003 - 04:57 AM

This "America" as displayed in the movies is a load of bs, if I ever heard one. Maybe people in Russia never visited the US and don't know what it is about, since from what I've heard here on this forum ... russians aren't allowed to visit the US. But to the rest of us in this world ... this "American dream" is a dream for old ladies, like my mom. Who really doesn't have a clue of what is going in the world, doesn't read up ... and is to old to have an alert mind, to sound "Alert!" when people are calling her to try and "poison her mind".

The rest of us, have been there, and we've seen with our own very eyes the enormous poverty that is there, and the enormous tragedy that is displayed there. And the fact remains, that the US pays a lot of cash all over the world, for it's own purposes ... propaganda purposes, even pays human rights organizations to "pound on the enemy", while not making a sound of human right violations made in the west. I mean, how many people are hearing about their "voice of concern" abour Iraq. What about their claim of millions of kosovans being murdered in kosovo, that turned out to be a lie ... do you think the entire world, is a bunch of old women and retards, that neither sees or hears?

I know most people in the world, are too busy with survival in their everyday, but to walk around with the arrogance, that the entire world is a bunch of dumb people who can't even see this obvious bs, and think that the US is some glory country, just by seeing their falsified statistics and not having eyes or brains to see it for themselves. The mere fact, that human rights violations in the west are ignored totally ... except for "voice of concern" in one or two "major" scenes. Tells the whole story about the hypocracy.
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#102 kiko

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Posted 14 April 2003 - 05:10 AM

AnotherEuropean is going to lecture us about standards of living.

What kind of life would USSR type government offer us ?

If you really did look around as you have said , you would have noticed that a large amount of people in the U.S. on food stamps are *FAT.

Nothing against them mind you, but facts are facts.


*Think about it.

Would you rather be a fat food stamper in America or a opinionated person like yourself on death row in the USSR ?
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#103 AnotherEuropean

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Posted 14 April 2003 - 05:18 AM

>
>What kind of life would USSR type government offer us ?
>
>If you really did look around as you have said , you would have noticed that a large amount of people in the U.S. on food stamps are *FAT.
>
>Nothing against them mind you, but facts are facts.
>
>*Think about it.
>

A socialist government, that cares for it's weak ... is one I'd pick any day, over the government of rich fascists, who throw away their weak in the garbage can and neither shows them on statistics, and is so ashamed of them that it pays their police force to "keep them off the streets".
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#104 Frunze

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Posted 14 April 2003 - 05:31 AM

Kiko, Kiko, Kiko, my funny little friend
Now you have resorted to not posting the same nonsense all over again but combinations of that nonsense. It must have taken 10 minutes to cut and paste and then arrange all that. While Im glad you are putting an effort in I regret to say you are still not making much sense.

I believe there are only two issues I havent addressed previously, though, one is closely related to two issues I have previously addressed.

1. "People working to make themselves worthwhile to other people for a profit (capitalism) is the only way things get better for all. My computer would be a pile of crap otherwise. Self interest, as ugly as it sounds, makes more sense than working one's b@lls off to gain little. When gaining little is the end-game ------- not much economic activity takes place."

You need to go back and read over "How to Organise Competition" by V. I. Lenin.

"Bourgeois authors have been using up reams of paper praising competition, private enterprise, and all the other magnificent virtues and blessings of the capitalists and the capitalist system. Socialists have been accused of refusing to understand the importance of these virtues, and of ignoring "human nature". As a matter of fact, however, capitalism long ago replaced small, independent commodity production, under which competition could develop enterprise, energy and bold initiative to any considerable extent, by large- and very large-scale factory production, joint-stock companies, syndicates and other monopolies. Under such capitalism, competition means the incredibly brutal suppression of the enterprise, energy and bold initiative of the mass of the population, of its overwhelming majority, of ninety-nine out of every hundred toilers; it also means that competition is replaced by financial fraud, nepotism, servility on the upper rungs of the social ladder.

Far from extinguishing competition, socialism, on the contrary, for the first time creates the opportunity for employing it on a really wide and on a really mass scale, for actually drawing the majority of working people into a field of labour in which they can display their abilities, develop the capacities, and reveal those talents, so abundant among the people whom capitalism crushed, suppressed and strangled in thousands and millions."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So in other words Kiko, all those Americans (over 50 million) who lack something so basic as health insurance are inherently lazy? Hmmm, data suggests that they are the hardest workers of all.

I have always liked Adam Smiths theory about the "war of each against all" or "the vices of the individual translate into social gain" or "everybody trying to get ahead by fu.kking up everybody else".

I think this is part of the reason that serious capitalist economists reject his writings as serious study. This along with his childish theory on how value is determined.

2. "Standards of living are low for all -- exept for the communist political bourgeoise. BUT THERE SHOULD NOT BE A BOURGEOISE IN A WORKERS PARADISE SHOULD THERE? How did stalin live? He is guilty of living like a king while millions suffered and died."

I have previously stated that Im a Marxist-Leninist, not a Stalinist but, I have never heard from any serious source that Stalin "lived like a king" and the only reason why millions were suffering and dying was because of the capitalists stratergy to "stave the country into submission". Though they didnt starve the USSR into submission they did cause terrible suffering among millions of Soviet Citizens.

When the Soviet Union got around this offensive by putting in place the infrastructure where life could thrive, the capitalists resorted to invasion, by far the largest invasion in recorded history.

I know Stalin betrayed the Oktober Revolution but I disagree with some other Communists that Stalin is to blame. I believe the betrayal was forced on Stalin by the hostile capitalist offensive. In this respect, one could say that Soviet communism was defeated in 1933. Lenins legacy was so great that it took almost another 60 years for the Soviet Union to be defeated despite the unrelenting hostile capitalist encirclement. Even today, in many respects one culd say the Soviet Republic lives.

Someone said "Lenin will never die, only grow stronger!" Thenext revolution will be a world revolution and the peoples of the world will live in paradise.

I agree with your correlation between "becoming a successful capitalist and gambling". As I keep saying, anyone can "win" but for every person who "wins" 200 will and must "lose". For anyone to "lose" in societies where such wealth exists, is a crime of fascists!
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#105 Atheris

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Posted 14 April 2003 - 05:37 AM

AnotherEuropean...

From Sweden eh? Not exactly a major contributor to global problems.

The widespread poverty you mention is misleading. Poverty level in the US is about $20,000 for a family of 4. Even at that amount a family can get by. Not bad considering the GNI in Russia is $1,700 per year...and in China it's $890 dollars a yr.

The other thing worth mentioning is that in America any person can become anything their intellect will allow.

After 9/11 my income dropped about $35,000 a yr. Even so, here I sit in front of my computer, a big-screen TV to my left, a nice place to live, car in my drive...blah, blah, blah. I don't complain too much because I know despite my losses, thanks to bin Laden and Co., I still have it better than most people on the planet.

About 94 of every 100 people in the eligible work-force are employed, and they make an average of $34,870 dollars per yr.

Like I've said before, the true measure of a country is how many people immigrate compared to how many want to leave.

You're entitled to your opinion, but the US remains the best place to seek oportunity and live the good life.
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#106 Frunze

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Posted 14 April 2003 - 05:52 AM

Arthritis
The poverty line is measured by how much money one needs to afford all the "basic" neccessities for a normal life. Such as enough food, accommodation, health care, education and etc.

In Russia though health care has deteriorated rapidly (Berezovsky was instumental in this, he bought and then closed down pharmaceutical factories and started importing from the West, mostly USA and Germany. Now he is hiding out in the UK, running for his life but protected by international Zionist organizations and their governments, USA, UK and Israel) it is still available to everyone and could say that education in Russia is still the best in the world. There is some homelessness but not much, not anywhere near as much as in USA. Poor peole in Russian still dont have to pay for electricity and other vital utilities.
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#107 Atheris

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Posted 14 April 2003 - 06:02 AM

You got my name wrong there buddy...

I understand the definition of poverty and how it's measured.

Communist and socialist countries typically don't offer the best educations or health care. A PhD from the US is woth more than from any other country (that's why so many foreigners come here), and we have the best medical programs in the world (that's why so many foreigners come here).

Health care is available to those insured, and to all in emergency situations.

Never before have I been exposed to the term Zionist like on this forum. What is a Zionist to you?
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#108 Frunze

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Posted 14 April 2003 - 07:16 AM

Arthritis
You understand it now? Thats good and there is no need to thank me. You didnt understand it before otherwise you wouldnt have made such a ridiculas comparison.

Many communist countries came from a very backward position as did the Soviet Republic itself. They all made huge advances in the field of health care and education. Of course all these advances pale into insignificance against the advances of the Soviet Republic itself (thanks to V. I. Lenin and the Bolsheviks in creating the only real communist state) .

Soviet advances were so astonishing that health care and education went from being almost non-existent for the vast majority of the population to being the best in the world despite the unrelenting hostility of the capitalist world (for the vast majority of the people). Of course a millionaire in USA had access to far better health care than an average Soviet citizen. Insofar as education, I hear George Bush went to one of the best universities in USA. I think this speaks for itself.

A Ph.D in USA is worth far less than it is in other developed capitalist powers. People pay a lot of money to study in USA becasue their money can only get them into a low quality university in their home countries if at all, however, in USA money talks.

I know heath care is available to all in an emergency. If its any of the more than 50 million uninsured, they may lose their house and car or whatever meager possesions they have to pay for it.

A Zionist is anyone who supports a "Greater Israel" in Palestine, where only Jews can live. I sometimes expand that to include their lackeys.
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#109 Atheris

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Posted 14 April 2003 - 07:40 AM

Until you get my moniker right I'll call you Frunzed-up.

Anyway...no thanks forthcoming.

"A Ph.D in USA is worth far less than it is in other developed capitalist powers."

That may be because so many here have PhDs.

"A Zionist is anyone who supports a "Greater Israel" in Palestine, where only Jews can live. I sometimes expand that to include their lackeys."

Well...either you're one of the few who knows the meaning of Zionism, or many on here use it way too broadly.

Regardless...I'm relieved to know I'm not a Zionist. I strongly support an independent Palestinian state.
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#110 Guest_USA Forever_*

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Posted 14 April 2003 - 07:56 AM

Frunze, you are absolutely wrong about quite a few things.

First of all, regarding the Russians "throwing bodies" at Germany and sharing rifles, I do believe that is absolutely true. If it is not, why did so many more Russians die than Germans? Were the Russians just crappy soldiers? No. They were good soldiers with crappy equipment but their leader sent them in to battle anyway. And the movie you talk about - I've never seen it, so my beliefs are not based on it. I have spent a LOT of time in Russia - have you? Most Russians HATE Stalin like we hate Hitler. And they don't much like Lenin either.

Most Russians understand that communism betrayed them and kept them down for years while their competition prospered.

You are also wrong to pick housing as a comparison between Russia and America. In Russia, housing is practically free - if you want to live in a ghetto. In America, we provide free housing too - we call them "projects" and any family can live there. Most don't because it's not a good life. Health care in Russia is abysmal compared to the USA. In Russia, if you can't pay, you don't get treated - no matter how sick you are. The USA does not have national health care, but hospitals will treat first and bill later, so if you have no money, you get care anyway. And we have medicaid and medicare to help the elderly and poor. Our health care systems are BY FAR the best in the whole world. And that's a fact!

As for education, it's funny you claim Russia has the best educational system in the world. It's quite easy to get a "degree" in Russia. I know a LOT of people who moved from Russia to the USA and *ALL* of them will tell you they had to go through a LOT more education to work in their former profession than they ever did in Russia. I know a girl who was a cardiologist in Russia. But, she had only 4 years of post-high-school education to be a cardiologist. When she moved to the USA, she was astonished at how hard it was to become a cardiologist here.

Same with other professions. My friend Mikhail who was a cyberneticist in Ukraine didn't even come close in his 4 years of education to what I learned in 4 years with a major in ME and a minor in EE. It's true that Russians generally stay in school but in many ways it's because the economy SUCKS so bad there that if you don't, you're unemployable.

Ever wonder why the drinking/drug problem is SO bad in Russia? LIFE SUCKS THERE. I've been there - traveled around all the small towns - they are NOT happy people. It's too bad because they are smart, friendly, and hard working, but their leaders betrayed them for so long and they paid the price for it.

And Frunze, if you think the average person has it better in Russia than the USA, you are SORELY mistaken. I've met the people there. An average existence in Russia is more like a poor existence in the USA. I've seen people eat potatoes for a whole month because it's all they can afford. You can be poor in the USA and work at McDonalds and earn $6/hr and still afford a decent apartment and enough to go out a couple of times a month or own a cheap car. Not in Russia. Not even close!
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#111 Suri-Comrade

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Posted 14 April 2003 - 09:36 AM

redarmy,

You are a joke, truely. If anyone is a cave man it's you.

-Comrade
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#112 AnotherEuropean

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Posted 14 April 2003 - 10:35 AM

>
>The other thing worth mentioning is that in America any person can become anything their intellect will allow.
>

That's BS, if I ever heard one ... we all see movies, but that's not the way it is in reality. Neither here, nor there ...

I could say, that one could know and recognise your agenda and your true self, from the friends you chose. And how you distribute your money ... you chose to "destroy" any form of socialism, that you can put yourself to ... and socialism, is about the poor being able to take care of themselves.

The amount of dollars, a person earns ... doesn't say much, it's the cost of living that does and the relative difference between income and cost of living.

On the so called "American Dream", bombarding the world with thousands of propaganda movies to establish this as a belief system is understandable ... and its also unfortunate, that its the lowest class of people that believe it, while it's the rich that benefit from it. An example would be immigration to the US ... any man, whose got money can immigrate ... others have to wait in line, be scrutinized and unless they have a higher education, won't get in.

One thing that says it all, is your statistics ... about 9% unemployment among whites, 27% among blacks and 24% among hispanics (Note, they are split between races). Now, within these statistics we are not discussing those who have been sentenced for a crime ... they're out of these statistics, and as anyone with a brain knows, crime is for the most part (some 80%) a poverty crime. So, within all your calculations a lot of the population is hidden ... the "illegal aliens", who make up the largest part of the low income part. The "sentenced", who also lose their right to vote, which really is a way to ensure that the rich maintain power.

The US of A, is a state of hypocracy ... that uses this propaganda, to blindsight the world. But in no way, lives up the standards it implies. Everything it does, can be seen through the people it supports ... criminals, gangsters, drug lords ... all over the world.
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#113 Frunze

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Posted 14 April 2003 - 02:33 PM

Arthritis
If there are so many people who have Ph.Ds in USA why do approx 70% of all mathamaticians hail from the lands of the Soviet Republic? Is this because there is a shortage in USA or because the university administrations have a low opinion of American Ph.D holders?

Whether or not you support a Palestinian state is beside the point. Clinton and his Zionists supported this. The Palestinian state was to be on the territory the Zionists have used as a toxic waste dump for the past 50 years. And then the Zionists blame Arafat for rejecting it!

USA Forever
I dont really give a fu.kk what "you believe", the fact is that it only ever happened in a Hollywood movie. )it was the case in WW1, perhaps you are mixing the two up) Maybe the fact that Nazis were ordered to "kill every Russian, every Soviet citizen, old man, woman or child" and that the capability of the Nazi army was not even close to being matched by anyone had just a little to do with Soviet losses.

What the fu.kk is this you moron?? "but their leader sent them in to battle anyway."

The USSR was invaded, not the other way around.

Russia was a peasent, backward state before the October Revolution. If not for that it would be like Pakistan or India today. Dont mistake the attitude of the Russian bourgeois as being the attitude of the people. I think at least monument to Lenin in every major city in Russia (and not only, there is of course Mt Lenin in Kryghizstan) at lest 1 city or area named after Lenin throughout the lands of the USSR speaks for itself.

If there is so much "free" (you mean "cheap" yes?) housing in USA why are there so many homeless people? Evidently, its not cheap enough. By far the best health care system in the world? I think you are delusional. Even better than Sweden for example? How about Canada for somewhere closer to home? I know educated Americans say this is so.....for millionaires.

Insofar as the next two paragraphs, it just looks like blah, blah, blah, nonsense to me. See my first paragraph to Arthritis for examples of "lowly" educated Russians and "highly" educated Americans. A friend of mine has lived in USA and Russia (a researcher) He spent time in Iowa, Carolina and NY York, he said in regard to all the flag waving nonsense in USA, "if its like that in NY you cant imagine how it is in the more backward places like Iowa".

Anyway, in Russia he lived in Yakursk, maybe the most isolated city in the world. He said even the young women in Yakursk are articulate, educated, enjoy the theater and can talk about anything, be it politics, ecology (his field) or whatever. He said of Iowa and Carolina, the young women drive tractors and thats about it.

Insofar as the last 2, its probably true. This has come about due to the restoration of capitalism in Russia. I have never stated otherwise. It doesnt change the fact that USA is the most rotten of all developed capitalist powers. Crime, poverty, desperation and misery is rampant. This has all been on the rise since the 1970s, when the post war boom ended and the rot set it. It will keep rotting until capitalism in destroyed.

In Russia they still have many things left over from the USSR like a class-conscious working class (I was in Ekaterinburg where some of thelargest factories in the world ar located. In one such factory i was astonished that for one hour a week they down tools and discuss stratergies of how to expropriate the expropriators (capitalists) in the capitalists own factory. It felt like freedom to me). They still have the memory of a better society and that is very important. In USA nothing will change, the rich will get richer and there will be less of them, the middle class will continue to sink into the proletariate and the lumpen proletariate will still be in jail.
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#114 Atheris

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Posted 14 April 2003 - 04:47 PM

AnotherEuropean...

There's little point in taking this much further...

==you chose to "destroy" any form of socialism, that you can put yourself to ... and socialism, is about the poor being able to take care of themselves.==

Capatilism is for those who want to word hard for what they want. That would be me. I'm not any more priviledged than your average black or Mexican citizen. I live well.

Socialism is for those who want the collective to take care of them. I've lived in a socialist country, so I know of what I speak. In principle it's not a bad idea, but socialist countries are less prosperous than capitalist countries. Sweden is an exception, but you guys don;t exactly have a staggering GDP. I prefer capatalism...you prefer socialism...nothing wrong with that. I wish you a long and happy life.

Unemployment rate is figured like I mentioned before. You're right about the differences in stats comparing white, blacks, hispanics...and let's not forget Asians , Native Americans, etc.

Here's the bottom line AE...

Anyone who wants to work in America can work...with few exceptions. A burger flipper at McDonalds makes $280 a week. On this amount one can afford a cheap apartment, food and a second-hand car.

==The "sentenced", who also lose their right to vote, which really is a way to ensure that the rich maintain power.==

Only felons loose their right to vote. Convicted drug dealers, child molestors, murderers, etc.

You can believe the anti-American propaganda the EU countries spew if you wish...but 13 million immigrants came to this country legally over the last decade, and I don't see an exodus into Mexico or Canada.
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#115 Atheris

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Posted 14 April 2003 - 05:04 PM

Frunzed-Up...

==If there are so many people who have Ph.Ds in USA why do approx 70% of all mathamaticians hail from the lands of the Soviet Republic? Is this because there is a shortage in USA or because the university administrations have a low opinion of American Ph.D holders?==

First of all, there are myriad fields besides mathematics. Secondly, my guess is you need to check your facts. Provide a little documentation and I'll consider your numbers. I'm not arguing that Russians are not bright people...I have friends there (Russian Academy of Sciences) and they are as sharp as anyone I know.

I'm also an ecologist (chemoecology), and I can tell you that our universities produce far more scientists (many foriegners) that publish in respected peer-reviewed journals than any other country. That doesn't mean other countries do not produce good scientists...just that journals outside the US are less critically reviewed.

==Whether or not you support a Palestinian state is beside the point.==

Then your definition of a Zionist is flawed.

==the middle class will continue to sink==

The middle-class is currently the fastest growing social class in the US.

I suggest you abandon whatever news source you rely on.
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#116 Guest__*

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Posted 15 April 2003 - 01:49 AM

Arthritis,

First of all you are off the topic. This thread is about the freedom fighters kicking invader's a.s.s.

However,

You stepped on one of my favorite topics : "superior" US economy.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

The US's middle class is disappearing with the speed of light! my dear delusional moron! Also, the US's debt is beyond americans' ability to pay it off. :.ever! There are ample evidence available, just turn the CNN off and get out of your cave!

now repeat after me...


"USA"s middle class is shrinking with the speed of light."

thanks
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#117 Guest__*

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Posted 15 April 2003 - 02:32 AM

Arthritis,

the standard picture (you see on CNN) is that the United States has a fairy tale economy, that Americans are smug and prosperous in the happy glow of the American boom, there's a fat and happy America enjoying one of the healthiest booms in American history - these are all quotes from front page headlines in the New York times, fairly typical.

They all give an example, the same example, up until summer 98 at least; the example was the stock market, and it indeed was a fairy tale, especially for the top 1 per cent of households who own about 70 % the stock and other assets, and to some extent for the 10 per cent who own most of the rest. Well, what about the next 10 per cent, you know the 80th to the 90th percentile, right below the top ten per cent? What about them? Well for them their net worth has declined in the 1990s for the reason that debt, which is enormous, has increased faster than the growth of stock and other assets. And it just gets worse as you go down. Eighty per cent of families work a lot more hours just to keep from losing even more ground; they have not yet recovered the levels of 1989.

Cheers,

Get it to your heads my Russian brothers & sisters ...USA sucks! It sucks big time!!!!
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#118 ahmad

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Posted 15 April 2003 - 03:21 AM

Cossack, your brian is totally fried from all that wonderful Russian high quality vodka. Get a life.
You don't know the United States, you don't even know your own country. You're a loser like the country you "hail" from.
The next time you're in the United States, look me up (Langley, Va.). Will be happy to show you a real country and real civilization. Although I'm afraid you'll have a stroke when you realize what jerk you have been - but our health care is very good so I expect you to survive.
The U.S. won the war, Iraqi cowards were on the run before the first air strike, and your country is headed for a big time tank thanks your hero, Mr. Putin, who screwed you all over by dealing with Saddam under the sheets.
See you in Langley (or Guantanamo) one of these days.
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#119 ahmad

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Posted 15 April 2003 - 03:30 AM

You never did tell us what your relationship is to Dr. Len Horowitz. The party would be very disturbed to hear that you were genetically related. Are you trying to come out of the closet??
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#120 Frunze

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Posted 15 April 2003 - 03:42 AM

A med
Why are you idiots so detached from reality? The USA middle class may well be rising in numbers....but I doubt it. All the petty bourgeoisie who made money in the bubble economy are now losing it or have lost it already.

The fastest growing class in USA is the proletariate. The over 50 million who lack health insurance are proletarians.
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