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#161 Saddam

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 02:37 AM

Extent Of The Promised Land

The second question as to what was the extent of The Promised Land' is a little difficult to determine. The passages quoted under (1. begin with a vague reference to "this land" from the starting point of Shechem (Nablus), and go on to include all the area from "the river of Egypt" to the Euphrates; the third passage speaks of Abraham's descendants spreading out in all four directions. Here, again, it is important to note that the promise of dominion from Nile to Euphrates was made before the birth of Ishmael and before the birth of Isaac, so that this territory was not to be necessarily and exclusively Israelite; and save for the short period when Solomon's authority was recognised in this area (I Kings 4:21) it has always been in the possession of the Arabs. Looking again at Gen 13:15, it is clear that Transjordania was included in the promise to Abraham because it would be plainly visible from the hill at Bethel; but this promise again predates the birth of Ishmael and Isaac, and so cannot be held to constitute an exclusively Israelite claim to the territory on the other side of the Jordan.

However, in the Book of Deuteronomy Moses told the people that God had commanded them to go in and occupy the country from the Mediterranean in the west to the Euphrates in the east, and from the Negeb in the south to the Lebanon in the north. These instructions the Israelites did not, or could not, carry out. They could not occupy the coast land which the Philistines held, and they never possessed the ports or the hinterland of Phoenicia.
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#162 Saddam

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 02:56 AM

Some centuries later in the reign of David, they did gain possession of Damascus, and David entered into a treaty of friendship with Hiram, king of Tyre; so that when Solomon held a great service of dedication when the temple building was completed deputies came from as far north as the region of Hama and from the south as far as the modern El-'Arish. But before Solomon's reign had ended much of David's empire had returned to its former possessors.

Everyone is aware that the process of attrition went on until the kingdom of Judea was confined to a few hundred square miles of land around Jerusalem, and even this was lost to the Babylonians in 597 B. C.
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#163 BlackCloudSky

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 03:18 AM

Saddam, To dig up that info so fast you must be one of the best best and lovliest people in the world. And after I have been fiddling about about you have more.

I did save the entire The Thirteenth Tribe - The Khazar Empire and its Heritage by Arthur Koestler web-site, with webcopier (free v 2.7) and I've just been making up an email with the introduction, Appendix iv, (Some Implications - Israel and the Diaspora), and "About the Author" (to give it credibility; He received the Sonning Prize at the University of copenhagen, and was a Commander of the Order of the British Empire)

Perhaps if I put those in the email body it will get read, with "IMPLICATIONS 13TH Tribe Israel & Diaspora" in the Subject line.

In this country the Independant and the Mirror took a strong stance against the Iraq war. The Sun was outrageously biased, and very sadly yesterday I came across a web-site with details of what BBC reporters said on the news re: Toppling of statue of Saddam Hussain. (I thought it was remarkably bad taste and bad luck to have put the flag that was flying over the Pentagon over the statues face. )

The photographs tell the story...
http://www.informati...article2842.htm
9/11 Pentagon Flag Used To Cover Saddam's Face In Baghdad
http://www.informati...article2834.htm
Robert Fisk: Baghdad: the day after
http://www.informati...article2847.htm
Journalists Reveal Their True Colors
http://www.informati...article2859.htm

I hope you do not mind if I add your reply to the post.

But I am not sure that I should put it in a version to circulate more widely, to

Gush Shalom, NETUREI KARTA, Palestine Solidarity, VoicesInTheWilderness, SupportSanity, WisdomFund, muslimwakeup, BetterWorldLinks, UniversitiesAgainstWar, Voices UK, Stop the War Coalition, Progressive, , UniversitiesAgainstWar. Open Democracy

Al Abram, Arab News, PalestinianChronicle, Russian Interfax. Guardian.

I do not see that there is anything there that would get you into trouble. The reason I say this is that it does look like the deaths of Arthur Koestler and his wife were suspicious. Perhaps it sounds crazy but it does occur to me that I might be putting myself at risk, but there are many web-sites that are generally aware of the situation.

But in a pub they mostly talk nonsense. I have had no reply to a long email I sent to local MP, or Liberal Democrat Party. Dont suppose they even opend the file. One might have thought they would be collating information from the internet, but it appears not. If they are relying on the press they are not informed.

Problem is that say the Stop the War Coalition are making demonstrations to withdraw troops, which may not be realistic or even advisable, but they do not seem to be tackling the Media problem, which I think is key to the issue. And it is not tackling the major key which is the Israel-Palestine problem. Nor is it getting a message across that terrorism and suicide bombing is entirely playing into the hands of their enemies.

Because it is no use writing letters to Tony Blair, or the Bush administration. Protesting in the streets does tell the Islamic world that this is not done in our name, but the Bush Administration and Blair have no intention whatsoever of paying any attention to such demonstrations, especially if their mates in much of the media are going to fix it for them.

My greatest fear at present is that of another nasty event, which will preempt any rational discussion.

It does occurr to me that emailing the UN maybe a good step.
There is: - Petition to the UN General Assembly - Uniting for Peace to Stop Bloodshed in Iraq.
http://www.waronfree...g/petition.html and link from there
http://www.waronfree...g4peacekit.html

You see it is my belief that it is possible to stop this, but it needs international cooperation with the internet working to circumvent the press.

The other issue which is critical is the widening world press control of Rupert Murdoch, which is of very great concern.

http://www.fpp.co.uk...5/Murdoch2.html
http://www.disinfo.c...cle/id2260/pg1/
http://www.red-star-...uk/murdoch.html
http://www.red-star-...rg.uk/levy.html
http://www.fpp.co.uk...le_lowdown.html
http://www.fpp.co.uk...S_Zionists.html
http://www.fpp.co.uk...irut200202.html
http://www.swin.edu.au/afi
http://www.gametheorysociety.org/
http://www.simpol.org/

The other problem is that I have my own life problems which are very serious. Muddling my way through 1.2Gb of assorted saved badly ordered information seems very tedious. Everything seems to take far longer than it should. This has taken me a very great deal of time, and I seem to be getting nowhere.

So I must at least get the simple email about The Thirteenth Tribe - The Khazar Empire and its Heritage by Arthur Koestler with just your latest info without your name, sent to the papers mentioned above, before I go to bed, as it is getting very late or early.

It does occur to me that all the information you posted might lend authority to trying to get the Mirror, Independant and Guardian to take the Israeli-palestine conflict seriously. Basically it is no good trying to rationalise with Ariel Sharon, as he has no intention whatsoever of keeping any agreement. I think it is the religious conviction that Israel belongs solely to the Jews which is on false grounds which has to be snuffed out. These people have got to to be made to faintly silly.

Typed in haste. So please forgive messy and untidy style. Working with 16 windows open is tedious.

BlackCloudSky

And your Avatar is distracting. Hope you think what I am doing is right.
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#164 BlackCloudSky

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 03:48 AM

And if my memory is correct they were allowed back to Israel, because the Babylonian King? who was Zoanastrian, had a dream when he was told the God of the Israelites was the same as the good God of the Zoanastrians. Zionist rabbis don't seem very grateful.

----------------------------------------

It seems too that zionist rabbis make statements that purport to be based on the Kabbala. Frankly I think their interpretation is very questionable. Especially the bits that state hebrew letters represent the soul, and when they return to Israel the letters expand t capitals. The books relevant to Judaism are the Torah (written law), the Talmud (Oral Law), which was written down as the Babylonian version and Jerusalem version. As to the origins of the Kaballa, it is said by some to be the secret law of creation given to Abraham, but other say it is mainly taken from neoplatonism and Gnosticism. see

A History of the Kabbalah
http://www.jfjonline...orykabbalah.htm

Texts of Judaism
http://www.sacred-te...m/jud/index.htm

I did download the Sepher Yetzirah, and the Zohar with WebCopier. I did not easily find a copy of the Bahir.
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#165 BlackCloudSky

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 05:43 AM

Apology Houlin, I was so engrossed with Saddam's postings on the legallity of the Zionist Claim to Israel that I did not see your post.

I was not at all offended. But it does occur to me that we are in difficult times. This chap Donan called my post on Khazars
"Palestinian ProPalGanda again? it seems so. Arabs have no other but lies to proclaim for their cause. DONDAN" Obviously without even reading it. And I am not Arabic! Brought up C of E.

I deliberately snuffed him by posting the information that the writer was an Ashkenazi Jew, who died in suspicious circumstances. He did post a lot of stuff saying he was a zionist, and apparently he is thinking of going to Israel.

Its just that I can be very abrupt myself, and have had to learn the hard way to keep mouth shut. Now we live in times when one has to say something.

Re the Nazi Holocaust, my mothers aunt recalled the occupation of Belgium in WWI, and two ofher sisters were lost in WWII. And my parents German teacher, who became a very good freind of my father was one of Hitlers refugees. One day she was a good little german girl, and the next a non-person. Her parent were lost in WWII. When they cam to this country they were interned. Apparently her husband recalled the Amadeus Trio.

I must try not to write to much. Enough of this topic though.

Re St Thomas:- I am not sure if you are referring to the Apostle St Thomas, who went Eastwards and established the Chaldean Church, which is Catholic but has the Eastern rite. Look up Apostles, and the way they were martyred. For early Christianity look up Judaeo-Christians, and the Essenes. There were three Judaean sects, The Pharisees, Saducees, and the Essenes. Look up Essenes. and look up the non-cannonical gospels.

I was going to post off an email with a list of what I found to be useful links on this topic.

Catholic Encylopedia is always useful.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/

A good link for the first Christians is http://www.pbs.org/w...shows/religion/

A good link for non-cannonical texts is http://www.gospels.net/

An agnostic point of view http://www.geocities...obin/index.html
The criticism of christianity is relevant, but I do not agree that JC was stupid.

One on Esssene spirit perhaps idealised. http://www.essenespirit.com/

One on the edict of Milan http://david.snu.edu...milan/index.htm

Fairly Graphic Website on the first council of Nicea. Not sure if it factually correct.
http://www.gospelcom.../glmps088.shtml

Quite a good web site on spiritualist views from a cross religious viewpoint.
http://reluctant-mes...er.com/main.htm

Academic overview of mysticism
http://www.digiserve.com/mystic/

And a web site on fundamentalist Christianity.
http://reluctant-mes...er.com/main.htm

Web site that tells you all about Holocausts from the Christian Council of Churches. The Final Struggle has already started!
http://www.holocaust...ed.org/main.htm
http://www.holocaust...ish/S/P219.html

For what seems to be a factual account of the Nazi Holocaust see http://www.holocaust.com.au/home.htm

ps. do look at the mystical gospel of St. Thomas.
and look at Gnosis.

Also interesting to look up Freemasonary, which has a lot of mystic Kabbala in it as well as other strange rituals and links to all kinds of magic sites. There is even a site called masonwatch!

You do come across some very odd sites. It takes so long to look at them all.

BlackCloudSky

p.s look up for an Orthodox Judaic perspective, and more info on Zionists.
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
http://www.netureikarta.org/

Saddam has covered a great deal of this on this forum very conveniently in one place.

One remarkable story is the true story of St Patrick. Patricius
Captured as a youth from Roman Britain, as a slave to Ireland. Escaped back to Britain. Had a dream, and as a result returned to Ireland with a mission to convert Ireland. And he did! He had a vision of christianity in that he saw god in every thing. I was reading the book section of the telegraph last Sunday, and read about Virgils Epic.

Other things which are worth reading are the Rig Veda, and the Tibetian Book of Life and Death.
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#166 Saddam

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 11:49 PM

Just checking in.
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#167 Guest_Osama Bin Ladin_*

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Posted 01 May 2003 - 02:38 AM

It is funny how when the truth is told, there bis no reply. They treat me with the same ignorance Saddam.
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#168 Stark

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Posted 01 May 2003 - 02:44 AM

You pretty much invited ignorance when you chose your name in this forum.

:rolleyes:
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#169 Guest_Osama Bin Ladin_*

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Posted 01 May 2003 - 03:01 AM

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Think not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. That is ignorance! It is to easy to say they do not reply to my posts because of my User Name, are you all that infentile?
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#170 Stark

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Posted 01 May 2003 - 03:11 AM

Your choice was made in poor taste, with disregard for others who may be offended by either your attempt at a piss poor joke or your open admiration for a terrorist. Beyond that, if you wanted to be taken seriously, you would have chosen a more appropriate name.

Quoting JFK isn't going to help --
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#171 Guest_Osama Bin Ladin_*

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Posted 01 May 2003 - 03:43 AM

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Should I have taken another User name to please, or in better words to ease the souls of the people that have caused this 9/11 attack by their ignorance of their own Gov. actions. I think not. silence is acceptance & therefor they are guilty.
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#172 Guest_Osama Bin Ladin_*

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Posted 01 May 2003 - 03:45 AM

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If you thought I was trying to help myself with my quote, read the post again please.
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#173 BlackCloudSky

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Posted 01 May 2003 - 05:36 AM

Just Checking In. Thanks for all the information Saddam. I hope it does something useful.

I see the US in Iraq have gone totally mad. There is another report of shooting. Protesters shot in Falluja http://news.bbc.co.u...ast/2988823.stm
All very depressing.

It is a waste of time for just street protests. Its needs an international effort aimed at the media monopoly, and to stop the US.
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#174 Saddam

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Posted 01 May 2003 - 11:51 PM

Just a bump up for now.

All replies welcome.
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#175 Saddam

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Posted 02 May 2003 - 06:20 AM

Zionists and the Bible - continuation.


(3) Was The Promise Irrevocable?

It will have been observed that two of the passages quoted under (1) use the words "for ever" and "everlasting" of what is to be a future Israelite occupation of Palestine. The same word stands for both the English renderings in the Hebrew original; and "everlasting" is not the proper meaning. The word ('olam) means 'a long time,' 'antiquity,' futurity,' and we read of "days of old," "waste places of old," "gates of old," "from of old," and similar expressions, all of which employ this word rendered above "for ever," or "everlasting." Again, a psalmist says: "I will sing for ever," an expression which the most literal interpreter of Holy Scripture can hardly suppose to be the literal meaning! Thus, summing up the evidence so far adduced, one is forced to the conclusion that the land of Palestine was not originally promised to the Jews exclusively, and that the first promise was indefinite ('this land? and was subsequently enlarged to include Transjordan, Syria, the Lebanon, and the nomad's land as far as the Euphrates.


BlackCloudSky , thanks for dropping by. Sorry but I had no time to post on Wednesday.
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#176 Saddam

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Posted 02 May 2003 - 06:26 AM

Lastly we see that there never was an unconditional promise of an everlasting possession; though a long and indefinite period was intended. We are now led to a stage of history and prophecy which bears more directly on current misunderstandings of Hebrew prediction. Had we no prophetic messages to guide us it would be apparent that these promises of possession of the land of Canaan were not unconditional; the covenant relation between Israel and God demanded loyalty from the people, and individual and corporate righteousness. Were the people to fail in these respects a terrible doom awaited them. The following words spoken by Moses in the 28th ch. of Deuteronomy apply in parts so easily to the sufferings of Jewry in the past few years that many have seen in them a prophecy of our own times: "It shall come to pass if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee and shall overtake thee... And the Lord shall scatter you among the peoples, from the one end of the earth; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou nor thy fathers, even wood and stone. And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, and there shall be no rest for the sole of thy foot; but the Lord shall give thee there a trembling heart and failing of eyes, and pining of soul: and thy life shall hang in doubt before thee ... "
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#177 Saddam

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Posted 02 May 2003 - 06:40 AM

Here it is clear that the divine promises to the patriarchs have been annulled by the national apostasy; and when the Assyrian captivity removed the population of Samaria, and the Babylonian captivity the people of Judah, the prophets saw in the disasters a vindication of the divine justice on a disobedient and gainsaying people. But they taught their people that a remnant would return, and would restore the temple and the religious life of the community; and they looked forward to a time when the earth would be filled with the knowledge of the Lord. It is often forgotten that these men were inspired poets who mingled very practical matters like the Return from the Babylonian Exile with sublime pictures of the desert blossoming as the rose, the lion lying down with the lamb, men beating their swords into pruning hooks, and forsaking and forswearing war for ever. They also prophesied of the setting up of the kingdom of David.

Unhappily, the practical was fulfilled and the ideal remained an ideal. Owing to the fact that the things that religious men yearn for were not realised when the Jews returned to Palestine there has been a tendency in the past to interpret not only the eschatological passages in the prophets but also the practical and political prophecies, of some time in the future; and as all prophecies in the Old Testament necessarily and inevitably centre around the Jewish people and their relation to God, the Golden Age is inseparable from the Holy City inhabited by holy Israelites. It would seem to be the hope of some that if the Jews could be returned to Palestine and form a state the Golden Age would, in some mysterious way, appear on earth. But such views are a distortion of the Old Testament prophecies which predicted a return from Babylon and from all the lands whither the Jews had been exiled. And these prophecies were fulfilled.
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#178 Saddam

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Posted 02 May 2003 - 06:46 AM

The Jews did return to Judea, they did rebuild the walls of Jerusalem, and they did rebuild the temple; and after fluctuating fortunes they did secure a brief period of political independence and expansion under the Maccabbees. Thus the prophecies of the Return have been fulfilled, and they cannot be fulfilled again.

Within the canonical literature of the Old Testament there is no prophecy of a second return after the return from the Babylonian Exile; because

(a) after the Exile all the Jews who wished to do so had returned to the Holy Land, though a great many more preferred to remain where they were and formed the Diaspora which afterwards became the backbone of the Christian Church; and

(B) the last of the prophets died centuries before the destruction of Jerusalem in A. D. 70.

It would be possible to criticize the claim that Scripture prophesies Jewish supremacy in Palestine from the point of view of the Higher Criticism of the Old Testament; but this has been intentionally ignored; and the Bible has been left to speak for itself.

Again, it would be possible to use the New Testament argument that the Church is now the Israel of God; but this seems inadvisable.
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#179 Saddam

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Posted 02 May 2003 - 11:52 PM

The Christian Zionists Message

What is the message of the Christian Zionist? Simply stated it is this: Every act taken by Israel is orchestrated by God, and should be condoned, supported, and even praised by the rest of us.

"Never mind what Israel does," say the Christian Zionists. "God wants this to happen." This includes the invasion of Lebanon, which killed or injured an estimated 100,000 Lebanese and Palestinians, most of them civilians; the bombing of sovereign nations such as Iraq; the deliberate, methodical brutalizing of the Palestinians-breaking bones, shooting children, and demolishing homes; and the expulsion of Palestinian Christians and Muslims from a land they have occupied for over 2,000 years.

My premise in Prophecy and Politics is that Christian Zionism is a dangerous and growing segment of Christianity, which was popularized by the 19th-century American Cyrus Scofield when he wrote into a Bible his interpretation of events in history. These events all centered around Israel-past, present, and future. His Scofield Bible is today the most popular of the reference Bibles.

Scofield said that Christ cannot return to earth until certain events occur: The Jews must return to Palestine, gain control of Jerusalem and rebuild a temple, and then we all must engage in the final, great battle called Armageddon. Estimates vary, but most students of Armageddon theology agree that as a result of these relatively recent interpretations of Biblical scripture, 10 to 40 million Americans believe Palestine is God's chosen land for the Jews.

Has the power of the Christian Zionists diminished?

I do not think so. Rather, we are seeing how the Christian Zionists, motivated by religious beliefs, are working hand in glove with politically motivated, militant Jewish Zionists around the world. It is the Christian support of Zionism that emboldens Zionists to believe they can dictate to relatively weak and dependent countries such as Austria, whom they may choose as their president.

It is the Christian support of Zionism that allows Manuel Noriega to remain the strongman in Panama, misusing his power, regardless of what harm he causes to the United States, his neighbors, and his people.

It is the Christian support of Zionism that enables the militant Israelis to take over Palestinian homes surrounding the Al-Aqsa mosque in pursuit of their well-documented plan to destroy Jerusalem's most holy Islamic site, sacred to a billion Muslims around the world-one-fifth of humanity.
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#180 Saddam

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Posted 02 May 2003 - 11:58 PM

Christian Zionists and the Iran-Contra Scandal

Remarkably,it was this Christian cult of Israel that brought us the Iran contra scandal, perhaps the most self-destructive act in the history of the United States. Marine Col. Oliver North, the perpetrator of this misguided series of actions, is a Christian Zionist. A born-again charismatic figure, he endeared himself to the militant Israeli Zionists who plotted Iran-contra. "He is more Israeli," said one Jewish general, "than we Israelis." This is often the case. In his zealotry, the Christian Zionist can become more Zionist, more militant, than the Jewish Zionist.

In the Iran-contra hearings, Sen. James McClure (R-ID) explained to North that the US had a stated policy of neutrality in the Iran-Iraq war. That policy differed radically from Israel's policy of selling arms to Iran. Yes, agreed North, the two policies were not the same. The question, to which McClure's efforts yielded no response, then becomes: Why would the US forego its American policy to pursue Israeli policy?

The answer, unfortunately, lies in the belief system of Christian Zionists: They believe that what Israel wants is what God wants. Therefore, it is perfectly acceptable to give the green light to whatever it is Israel wants and then conceal this from the American people. Anything, including lies, theft, even murder, is justified as long as Israel wants it.
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