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RUSSIANS BUILD FAR-BETTER -WARBIRDS than the USA! Why it is so hard to understand, ?


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#141 Miss Astrojet

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Posted 05 May 2003 - 03:35 AM

Why would you need a stealth plane that goes Mach 3? There's no point. Speed was used before stealth as a means of allowing a plane to get in and out of enemy territory fast. With stealth a plane needs only subsonic capability. My guess is that a Russian Mach 3 stealth aircraft is a figment of someones over eager mind.
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#142 Atheris

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Posted 05 May 2003 - 04:41 AM

There are reasons for supersonic speeds with a stealth plane. The F/A-22 has both abilities, as do the other JSF aircraft.

Regarding the Tu-160...very similar to the US B-1B.
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#143 Simon666

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Posted 05 May 2003 - 08:09 AM

<<666, this sketch is from Russian site, give me a sketch from American site.>>

I've seen that sketch before in some (US aviation?) magazine, I don't think they made it up on that site but rather scanned it/copy-and-pasted it from an American site.
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#144 Atheris

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Posted 05 May 2003 - 08:43 AM

Bomber Stats:

American B-1B - 100 planes built

Primary Function: Long-range, multi-role, heavy bomber
Builder: Rockwell International, North American Aircraft
Operations Air Frame and Integration: Offensive avionics, Boeing Military Airplane; defensive avionics, AIL Division
Power Plant: Four General Electric F-101-GE-102 turbofan engine with afterburner - Thrust: 30,000-plus pounds (13,500-plus kilograms) with afterburner, per engine
Length: 146 feet (44.5 meters)
Wingspan: 137 feet (41.8 meters) extended forward, 79 feet (24.1 meters) swept aft
Height: 34 feet (10.4 meters)
Weight: Empty, approximately 190,000 pounds (86,183 kilograms)
Maximum Takeoff Weight: 477,000 pounds (214,650 kilograms)
Speed: 900-plus mph (Mach 1.2 at sea level)
Rotate and Takeoff Speeds: 210 Gross - 119 Rotate kts / 134 kts Takeoff
390 Gross - 168 kts Rotate / 183 kts Takeoff
Landing Speeds: 210 Gross - 145 kts
380 Gross - 195 kts
Range: Intercontinental, unrefueled
Ceiling: Over 30,000 feet (9,000 meters)
Crew: Four (aircraft commander, pilot, offensive systems officer and defensive systems officer)

Russian TU-160 - 36 planes built

Design Bureau - OKB-156 Tupolev
Manufacturer - Plant Nr. 22 Kazan
Power Plant - 4 HK-32 turbojet engines - Thrust 25.000 kg each
Length - 54.1
Height - 13.1
Wingspan - 35.6m (minimum), 55.7m (maximum)
Wing surface - 232 sqm
Speed - 2200 km/h (maximum), 1030 km/h (ground)
Ceiling - 16.000m
Weight (empty)110.000kg
Fuel weight - 148.000 kg
Maximum take-off weight - 275.000 kg
Normal load - 9.000 kg
Maximum load - 40.000
Range - 14.000 km (with a load of 9.000kg)
10.500 km (with a load of 40.000 kg)
Crew - 4

These planes are very similar. The slightly bigger Russian plane produces more thrust and is a little faster at approx. 1,200 mph, (Mach 3 is bullshit) and has a higher ceiling. The TU-160 is not capable of intercontinental flight without refueling. The B-1B flies intercontinental unrefueled.

Both planes have a low radar signature but would not be considered "stealth."
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#145 Atheris

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Posted 05 May 2003 - 08:56 AM

Some interesting comments:

The US Air Force claims the F-15C is in several respects inferior to, or at best equal to, the MiG-29, Su-27, Su-35/37, Rafale, and EF-2000, which are variously superior in acceleration, maneuverability, engine thrust, rate of climb, avionics, firepower, radar signature, or range. Although the F-15C and Su-27P series are similar in many categories, the Su-27 can outperform the F-15C at both long and short ranges. In long-range encounters, with its superiorr radar the Su-27 can launch a missile before the F-15C does, so from a purely kinematic standpoint, the Russian fighters outperform the F-15C in the beyond-visual-range fight. The Su-35 phased array radar is superior to the APG-63 Doppler radar in both detection range and tracking capabilities. Additionally, the Su-35 propulsion system increases the aircraft's maneuverability with thrust vectoring nozzles. Simulations conducted by British Aerospace and the British Defense Research Agency compared the effectiveness of the F-15C, Rafale, EF-2000, and F-22 against the Russian Su-35 armed with active radar missiles similar to the AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM). The Rafale achieved a 1:1 kill ratio (1 Su-35 destroyed for each Rafale lost). The EF-2000 kill ratio was 4.5:1 while the F-22 achieved a ratio of 10:1. In stark contrast was the F-15C, losing 1.3 Eagles for each Su-35 destroyed.
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#146 Capone

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Posted 05 May 2003 - 04:13 PM

Ancient U.S. technology from the 50s. Mach 3+, SR-71.

"Subsonic time is a waste of time."
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#147 Guest__*

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Posted 06 May 2003 - 12:51 AM

Hey Arthritis,

where did you find those "stats". On CNN's or Penta-gooooooone website?

Hmmm, moron?
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#148 Miss Astrojet

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Posted 06 May 2003 - 05:18 AM

Cossack, at least Atheris provides factual information not whimsical fantasy. The F-15C/E is still one of the worlds best if not the best fighter/bomber out there. The TU-160 is good for two things. One is a gate guard, the other a hangar queen.:)
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#149 AIRFORCE1

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Posted 06 May 2003 - 07:36 PM

I think the TU-160 can be compared more to the B-1B lancer. The wings are swept back for faster speeds and swept forward for landing and cruisng. Here are some stats.

Of course this plane is a far better bomber than the TU-160 anyday.

The B-1B holds several world records for speed, payload and distance. The National Aeronautic Association recognized the B-1B for completing one of the 10 most memorable record flights for 1994.

The B-1B's blended wing/body configuration, along with variable-geometry design and turbofan engines, combine to provide greater range and high speed with enhanced survivability. Forward wing settings are used for takeoff, landings and high-altitude maximum cruise. Aft wing settings are used in high subsonic and supersonic flight, enhancing the B-1B's maneuverability. The B-1B's speed, superior handling characteristics, and large payload make it a key element of any joint/composite strike force.

The B-1B's offensive avionics include the forward-looking offensive radar set employing synthetic aperture radar, ground moving target indicator and terrain-following radar modes, an extremely accurate Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation System, the avionics control unit complex, a Doppler radar, and a radar altimeter. These features enable aircrews to globally navigate, accurately refine aircraft position without the need for ground-based navigation aids, update mission information and target coordinates in-flight, and perform precision bombing.

The B-1B's electronic jamming equipment, infrared countermeasures, radar location and warning systems complement its low-radar cross-section and form an integrated defense system for the aircraft that supports penetration of hostile airspace. The current defensive avionics system consist of the ALQ-161A radio frequency surveillance/electronic countermeasures system, the tail warning function, and the expendable countermeasures system, and is supplemented by the ALE-50 Towed Decoy System.

The defensive avionics system is a comprehensive electronic countermeasures package that detects enemy threats and applies the appropriate countermeasures, such as electronic jamming or dispensing expendable chaff and flares to protect against radar-homing and heat-seeking missiles. The TDS complements the system by providing greater protection against RF threats. Low-radar cross-section is provided by the combination of aircraft structure and radar-absorption materials that reduce the aircraft's radar signature to approximately 1 percent that of the B-52. Similar to the offensive avionics, the defensive suite has a reprogrammable design that allows in-flight changes to be made to counter new or changing threats.

The ongoing Conventional Mission Upgrade Program is significantly enhancing the B-1B's capability. This gives the B-1B greater lethality and survivability through the integration of precision and standoff weapons and a robust electronic countermeasures suite. The upgrade program includes GPS receivers, a weapons interface which enables the use of the joint direct attack munition and other weapons, secure radios, and improved computers to support new precision and near-precision weapons such as the wind-corrected munitions dispenser, the joint standoff weapon, the joint air-to-surface standoff missile.

These improvements help lay the foundation for future precision miniature munitions, such as Small Diameter Bomb. The defensive system upgrade will greatly improve aircrew situational awareness and its electronic countermeasures capability. Through the replacement of the current ALQ-161 with the ALQ-214 Integrated Defensive Electronic Counter-Measures, and ALE-55 Fiber Optic Towed Decoy, the B-1 will be able to detect and defeat lethal threats well beyond the 2010 timeframe.

Background
The B-1A model of the new long-range multi-role bomber never went into production. USAF acquired four prototype flight test models in the 1970s, but the program was canceled in 1977. Flight test of the four B-1A models continued through 1981.

The B-1B is the improved variant initiated by the Reagan administration in 1981. The first production model flew in October 1984, and the first B-1B was delivered to Dyess Air Force Base, Texas, in June 1985, with initial operational capability on Oct. 1, 1986. The final B-1B was delivered May 2, 1988.

The B-1B was first used in combat in support of operations against Iraq during Operation Desert Fox in December 1998. B-1s have been subsequently used in Operation Allied Force.

:D
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#150 predax

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Posted 06 May 2003 - 08:10 PM

http://www.ae.gatech...rcraft.data.pdf

I know this is a lot of text...

And it's not a really relevant link... Maybe just interesting for a few people...

B1-B Lancer Specs

Builder: Rockwell International, North American Aircraft
Operations Air Frame and Integration: Offensive avionics, Boeing Military Airplane; defensive avionics, AIL Division
Power Plant: Four General Electric F-101-GE-102 turbofan engine with afterburner
Thrust: 30,000-plus pounds (13,500-plus kilograms) with afterburner, per engine
Length: 146 feet (44.5 meters)
Wingspan: 137 feet (41.8 meters) extended forward,
79 feet (24.1 meters) swept aft
Height: 34 feet (10.4 meters)
Weight: Empty, approximately 190,000 pounds (86,183 kilograms)
Maximum Takeoff Weight: 477,000 pounds (214,650 kilograms)
Speed: 600+ mph (Mach .92) @ 500 feet
825 mph (Mach 1.25) @ 50,000 feet
Rotate and Takeoff Speeds: 210 Gross - 119 Rotate kts / 134 kts Takeoff
390 Gross - 168 kts Rotate / 183 kts Takeoff
Landing Speeds: 210 Gross - 145 kts
380 Gross - 195 kts
Range: 7,455 miles, unrefueled
3,444 miles with normal weapons load
Ceiling: 60,000 feet (18,000 meters)
Crew: Four (aircraft commander, pilot, offensive systems officer and defensive systems officer)

Armament: NUCLEAR
CONVENTIONAL
84 Mk 62
84 MK82
30 CBU 87
30 CBU 89
30 CBU 97
12 Mk 65
PRECISION
30 WCMD
24 JDAM
12 GBU-27
12 AGM-154 JSOW
12 TSSAM

Date Deployed: June 1985
Unit Cost: $200-plus million per aircraft
Inventory: 100 total production
92 total current inventory
Active force, 51 PMAI (68 actual)
ANG, 18 PMAI (22 actual)
Reserve, 0
AFMC, 2 (Test)

TU-160 Blackjack Specs

Design Bureau OKB-156 Tupolev
Manufacturer Plant Nr. 22 Kazan
Power Plant 4 HK-32 turbojet engines
Thrust 25.000 kg each
Length 54.1
Height 13.1
Wingspan 35.6m (minimum), 55.7m (maximum)
Wing surface 232 sqm
Speed 2200 km/h (maximum), 1030 km/h (ground)
Ceiling 16.000m
Weight (empty) 110.000kg
Fuel weight 148.000 kg
Maximum take-off weight 275.000 kg
Normal load 9.000 kg
Maximum load 40.000
Range 14.000 km (with a load of 9.000kg)
10.500 km (with a load of 40.000 kg)
Armament 12 H-55 or 24 H-15 missiles
free falling bombs
Systems
Crew 4
Accomodation
Unit cost
Approved
Development began 1975
First Flight 12/19/1981
Series production started 1984
Date deployed 1987
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#151 predax

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Posted 06 May 2003 - 08:11 PM

First flown in 1982, the Tupolev Tu-160 'Blackjack' is a counterpart to the American B-1B. Both share a similar configuration, but the Soviet designed bomber is about 30 percent larger and considerably faster. Its initial combat radius of 7300 km is estimated on a mission profile of subsonic high altitude cruise, transonic penetration at low altitude. The Blackjack has a conventional or nuclear free-fall bombing capability, but it has more often been associated with the AS-15 'Kent' cruise missile. The Blackjack is an extremely expensive aircraft, so with the current economic crisis affecting the former Soviet Union, together with the relaxation in international tension, it is unlikely that more than the 25 bombers currently in service will be completed.

The Tu-160 is a multi-mission strategic bomber designed for operations ranging from subsonic speeds and low altitudes to speeds over Mach 1 at high altitudes. The two weapons bays can accommodate different mission-specific loads, including strategic cruise missiles, short-range guided missiles, nuclear and conventional bombs, and mines. Its basic armament of short-range guided missiles and strategic cruise missiles enables it to deliver nuclear strikes to targets with preassigned coordinates.In the future, after the aircraft is equipped with high-precision conventional weapons it may also be used against mobile or tactical targets.

The Tu-160 was the outcome of a multi-mission bomber competition, which included a Tupolev proposal for an aircraft design using elements of the Tu-144, the Myasishchev M- 18, and the Sukhoi a design based on the T-4 aircraft. The project of Myasishchev was considered to be the most successful, although the Tupolev organization was regarded as having the greatest potential for completing this complex project. As a result, Tupolev was assigned to develop an aircraft using elements of the Myasishchev M-18 bomber design. The project was supervised by V.N. Binznyuk. Trial operations in the Air Forces began in 1987 with serial production being conducted at the Kazan Aviation Association.

The Tu-160 is characterized by low-mounted, swept-back, and tapered, variable geometry wings with large fixed-center section. The variable geometry wings (from 20 degrees up to 65 degrees) allows for both flight at supersonic and subsonic speeds. Four NK-32 TRDDF [turbojet bypass engines with afterburners] of 25,000 kilograms-force power the T-160. The four turbofans, developed by OKB Kuznetsov in 1977, are mounted in pairs under the fixed-center section with square intakes and exhausts extending behind the wings' trailing edges. The fuselage's slim structure is marked by a long, pointed, slightly upturned nose section and a stepped canopy. Tail flats are swept-back, tapered, and mid-mounted on the fin. The tail fin is back-tapered with a square tip and a fairing in the leading edge. The tail cone is located past the tail section. During the design of the aircraft, special attention was paid to reducing its signature. Measures were applied to reduce the signature of the engines to infra-red and radar detectors. Tests of these survivability measures were first tested on a TU-95 aircraft in 1980.

As the most powerful combat aircraft of the Soviet Air Forces, the T-160 flies at 2,000 km/hr and can exceed the 2,000 mark with a mission-specific load. The T-160 can climb 60-70 meters per second and reach heights of up 15,000 meters. The bomber can be refueled during flight by IL-78 and ZMS-2 tanker aircraft. The air refueling system consists of a probe and drogue airborne refueling system.

The TU-160 can carry up to 12 Kh-55 long range missiles and Kh-15 short range missiles. The weapons bays can accommodate different loads: carries various bombs: From fee falling nuclear and regular up to 1500 kg bombs. The bomber is not equipped with artillery armament.

The Tu-160 is equipped with a combined navigation-and-weapon aiming system, RID; [radar] for detecting targets on the ground and sea at long distances, an optical-electronic bombsight, an automatic terrain-following system, and active and passive radio-electronic warfare systems, as well as a probe-and-drogue airborne refueling system. It is equipped with K-36DM ejection seats. The cockpit instruments are the traditional electromechanical variety. The aircraft is controlled with the aid of a central control column. The engine control throttles are located between the pilots' seats. There is a rest area, a toilet, and a cupboard for warming up food.

Studies have also been conducted on using the aircraft as a launch platform for the "Burlak" space launch vehicle, which is designed to carry payloads with a mass of 300 to 500 kg in polar orbits at an altitude of 500 to 700 km. Under this concept the launch vehicle, which has a solid-fuel engine and a delta wing, would be suspended under the airplane's fuselage.

In 1981 OKB Tupolev built two prototypes of the bomber and one mock-up that was used for static tests. The first flight test of the "70" aircraft took place on 19 December 1981. During flight tests, one of the two original planes was lost. Shortly after tests began, series production started. In 1984, the factory in Kazan started producing the bomber which received the designation TU-160. Initial plans provided for the construction of 100 airplanes but when their production was stopped in 1992, only 36 bombers had been built.

In May 1987, deployment of the first bombers began. Until the end of 1991, 19 TU-160 bombers served in the 184th regiment in Ukraine and became Ukrainian property after the dissolution of the USSR. In 1992 the 121th air regiment based at the aerodrome B.G. Engels was equippd with TU-160 bombers. Subsequently the bombers were tested to carry long range missiles.

It was reported on 02 July 1999 that the Gorbunov Kazan Air Industrial Association received an order from the Ministry of Defense of Russia to complete the production of one Tu-160 strategic bomber. According to the Association's general director Nail Hairullin the contract for the aircraft production was worth 45 million rubles.

In July 1999 the Minister of Defense of Ukraine Alexander Kuzmuk confirmed that Kiev officially proposed that Moscow accept as payment for the gas debts "about 10 strategic bombers Tu-160 and Tu-95". He refused to tell the exact cost of missile carriers, however, in his judgment, it would be "considerably more" than 25 million dollars for each machine. On 12 October 1999 the Russian air force announced an agreement that would allow Ukraine to pay some of its multimillion-dollar energy debts by handing over 11 strategic bombers. Ukraine had tried to unload the bombers since the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, but talks had foundered because of differences over the price tag and other conditions. The deal includes eight Tupolev 160 Blackjack bombers and three Tupolev 95 Bears.

The 11 strategic bombers and 600 air-launched missiles exchanged by Ukraine to Russia in payment for the gas debt were transferred in mid-February 2000. Two Tu-160 bombers flew from Priluki in the Ukrainian Chernigov region for the Russian air base in Engels. The missiles were sent to Russia by railroad. Three Tu-95MS bombers and six Tu-160 airplanes had already arrived at Engels since October 1999 in fulfillment of the intergovernmental agreements. Before being moved to Russia, 19 Tu-160 airplanes were stationed at the Priluki airfield and 21 Tu-95MS were located in Uzin.

In early 2002 it was reported that Long-Range Aviation would soon receive three additional Tu-160 strategic bombers, being built by the Kazan aircraft plant. The first bomber funded from the 2002 state defense order was to be passed over to the military by the end of the year. After completion of the program Russia will have a fleet consisting of 18 supersonic bombers capable of using nuclear and conventional weapons. In addition, the Kazan plant will upgrade the bombers which the Air Force already has. The Tu-160 bombers will be equipped with upgraded avionics and long-distance cruise missiles. The upgrade program of these warplanes will cost around $4 billion.
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#152 AIRFORCE1

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Posted 06 May 2003 - 08:48 PM

Predax posted info regarding the TU-160. Here is some info he posted: It is all wrong. Learn how to cut and paste Predax!

TU-160 BLACKJACK - SPECIFICATION
Builder: Rockwell International, North American Aircraft
Operations Air Frame and Integration: Offensive avionics, Boeing Military Airplane; defensive avionics, AIL Division
Power Plant: Four General Electric F-101-GE-102 turbofan engine with afterburner

Rockwell International designed and built the B1-B Lancer not the TU-160 as you posted.

Question: Did Rockwell build both planes, if so the Russian
TU-160 is really American.

Here are the real specs for the TU-160:
Specifications
Soviet Designation
TU-160

US-Designation
Blackjack

Design Bureau
OKB-156 Tupolev

Manufacturer
Plant Nr. 22 Kazan

Power Plant
4 HK-32 turbojet engines

Thrust
25.000 kg each

Length
54.1

Height
13.1

Wingspan
35.6m (minimum), 55.7m (maximum)

Wing surface
232 sqm

Speed
2200 km/h (maximum), 1030 km/h (ground)

Ceiling
16.000m

Weight (empty)
110.000kg

Fuel weight
148.000 kg

Maximum take-off weight
275.000 kg

Normal load
9.000 kg

Maximum load
40.000

Range
14.000 km (with a load of 9.000kg)

10.500 km (with a load of 40.000 kg)

Armament
12 H-55 or 24 H-15 missiles

free falling bombs

Systems

Crew
4

Accomodation

Unit cost

Approved

Development began
1975

First Flight
12/19/1981

Series production started
1984

Date deployed
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#153 predax

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Posted 06 May 2003 - 08:53 PM

I fixed it... just mixed 2 titles :)

But did you read the article following it?????
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#154 AIRFORCE1

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Posted 06 May 2003 - 08:55 PM

Yep, I read the article. Thanks for clearing that up. Are the 2 planes connected through the same North American company Rockwell International?
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#155 Guest__*

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Posted 07 May 2003 - 01:03 AM

AIRFART1,

what kind of question is this?

Do you know the specs for Tu 160 MXP (the plasma coated variant)?
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#156 AIRFORCE1

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Posted 07 May 2003 - 01:56 AM

I have already posted the specs. The plasma version is the same plane. The plasma was supposed to be a TOP-secret advantage built into the plane. The plasma technology used by the Russian's was technology stole from the US.

The Russians copied the design of the US B1 bomber and made a Russian version called the TU-160.

New Flash: The US already builds plasma technology into the Stealth, B1 Lancer, and some TOP-secret aircraft Russia does not have a clue about.

You know those UFO's you are seeing in Russia are made in the U.S.A. :cool:
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#157 Glucklich

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Posted 07 May 2003 - 02:30 AM

Did you mean, "stolen from the US"?
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#158 AIRFORCE1

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Posted 07 May 2003 - 02:35 AM

Same thing. Stole or stolen US slang..You would'nt know :rolleyes:
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#159 AIRFORCE1

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Posted 08 May 2003 - 03:29 AM

Bulov, let me give you a lesson in English. You should always start you sentence with a capital letter stupid!

Bulov wrote Quote: wow, americans have problem with english?

What he really meant was; Wow, Americans have a problem with English?

You see Bulov, English should always be capitalized and also Americans should always be capitalized.

If you were from the Stone Age one would say; me am hungry!
You must be a little slow, because you write like a retard!

You say; wow, americans have problem with english? This is not a correct sentence.

Wow, Americans have a problem with English? This is a correct sentence.

Before you pop off Bulov, you better know what the F U C K you're talking about dumb ***! :mad:
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#160 Glucklich

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Posted 09 May 2003 - 02:08 AM

WOW, AMERICANS HAVE AGAIN A SERIOUS PROBLEM WITH ENGLISH!

HEHEHE
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