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Can America be tamed?


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#1 donquijote

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Posted 24 April 2003 - 11:04 PM

Sometimes I wonder --and many others, I'm sure-- whether America can
get in line with the rest of the, well you know, the more or less
civilized world, so we don't have to worry about this God chosen
nation and get to sleep in peace...

Well, I've thought that the only solution --short of Armageddon--
would be... America entering the European Union --I know guys, don't
get mad yet-- 'cause it would be under the EU's terms and laws...
socialized medicine, poverty prevention, culture, gun restriction,
saving --not wasting-- as her philosophy, and some humanist
education...

So imagine, you can get up in the morning nice and refreshed knowing
that your kids won't be caught up in the crossfire between 'gods,' if
you know what I mean... Wouldn't it be nice?

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#2 Gaddock

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Posted 25 April 2003 - 02:51 PM

Tamed? No, Pax Americana!

"get in line with the rest of the civilized world"

Please define the civilized world. If you are speaking of Europe .... it seems to me the vote is 19 to 3 in favor of US policy. I would also ask where are you? and why do you feel threatened by the US? As for the US entering the European Union ...... that's laughable. Why would we want to join a group that was created solely to compete with us? We believe competition is good.

"socialized medicine"
Why do the people who need the best possible health care come to the US?

"poverty prevention"
Have you looked at your socialist tax rate lately? or are you to living off the governments Tit.

"culture"
No other country in the world has such a divers culture.

"gun restriction"
I bet you don't even know why we have the right to bear arms. FYI, so we do have to fold to an oppressive government. Example, significant legal procedural changes in the way the FBI, DEA, ATF treat the common citizen after Ruby Ridge and Waco Texas for a good and current example. The Feds knew people were going to start shooting back. Look at the countries who have disarmed their citizens, UK, Jamaica, etc etc. And then look at the double digit increase in violent crime. Never mind Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Chairman Mow. All advocates of gun control.

"humanist education"
Perhaps we should close our eyes to the real world, hold hands and sing Koombaya. That will keep the children safe with food in their stomachs.

"crossfire between 'gods"
Who? please specify. A wee bit paranoid perhaps?

Best regards,
Gaddock
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#3 donquijote

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Posted 25 April 2003 - 06:54 PM

Tamed? No, Pax Americana!

"get in line with the rest of the civilized world"

Please define the civilized world. If you are speaking of Europe .... it seems to me the vote is 19 to 3 in favor of US policy. I would also ask where are you? and why do you feel threatened by the US? As for the US entering the European Union ...... that's laughable.

Don Quijote: Yeah, that's what I meant. In America you got the 'law of the jungle'? You know the story?

THE LAW OF THE JUNGLE

Once upon a time, in the deep jungle, lived a Lion and a Monkey... One day the Monkey, tired of the Lion always getting the lion share, and seeing that such injustice represented a danger to all the species of the jungle, demanded justice... The Lion, yawning and stretching, said: "You would have to have paws and sharp teeth..." Then the Monkey, who was very clever, devised a plan: He would go to the costume store, and look like a lion...

When the Lion saw him, noticing that the new lion wasn't a match for him, and fearing competion, killed him on the spot... before the indifferent look of the little animals of the jungle... And that's how the Law of the Jungle was re-established one more time...

NOTE: Other monkeys survived him...

Why would we want to join a group that was created solely to compete with us? We believe competition is good.

DQ: Would you tell that to the Iraquis?

"socialized medicine"
Why do the people who need the best possible health care come to the US?

DQ: Yeah, right if you are a lion... But if you are a 'little animal'...

Emergency room patients regularly wait as long as four days for a bed
at Los Angeles County-USC Medical Center, and some die before
receiving critical medical treatment, according to sworn declarations
by the hospital's own doctors.

Full Story at LATimes:
http://www.latimes.c...-home-headlines

"poverty prevention"
Have you looked at your socialist tax rate lately? or are you to living off the governments Tit.

DQ: Is that why the rich are getting richer?

Wealth and Democracy: A Political History of the American Rich
by Kevin Phillips

Editorial Reviews
Amazon.com
Most American conservatives take it as an article of faith that the
less governmental involvement in affairs of the market and pocketbook
the better. The rich do not, whatever they might say--for much of
their wealth comes from the "power and preferment of government." So
writes Kevin Phillips, the accomplished historian and one-time
Washington insider, in this extraordinary survey of plutocracy,
excess, and reform. "Laissez-faire is a pretense," he argues; as the
wealth of the rich has grown, so has its control over government,
making politics a hostage of money. Examining cycles of economic
growth and decline from the founding days of the republic to the
recent collapse of technology stocks, Phillips dispels notions of
trickle-down wealth creation, *****s holes in speculative bubbles, and
decries the ever-increasing "financialization" of the economy--all of
which, he argues, have served to reduce the well-being of ordinary
Americans and government alike.

"culture"
No other country in the world has such a divers culture.

DQ: Having diverse cultures, doesn't mean you live in a cultural place. Just turn the radio or TV and you hear the same shit over, and over again, of course, interrupted by the commercial shouts...

"gun restriction"
I bet you don't even know why we have the right to bear arms. FYI, so we do have to fold to an oppressive government. Example, significant legal procedural changes in the way the FBI, DEA, ATF treat the common citizen after Ruby Ridge and Waco Texas for a good and current example. The Feds knew people were going to start shooting back. Look at the countries who have disarmed their citizens, UK, Jamaica, etc etc. And then look at the double digit increase in violent crime. Never mind Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Chairman Mow. All advocates of gun control.

DQ: I thought you had the best army in the world to defend you... Do you also need guns? Did you hear about the latest school incident a couple of days ago? The student killed the principal and then shot himself. Pax Americana?

"humanist education"
Perhaps we should close our eyes to the real world, hold hands and sing Koombaya. That will keep the children safe with food in their stomachs.

DQ: No, it won't. But it'll be a good beginning. After we stop senseless wars we can begin feeding the 800 million people who needlessly go hungry in this world, 300 million of them children...

"crossfire between 'gods"
Who? please specify. A wee bit paranoid perhaps?

DQ: Nevermind. Use you imagination...

Hallelujah!!!

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#4 sl0tw0n

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Posted 25 April 2003 - 07:44 PM

why do you feel threatened by the US?>
hahah

i dont know, how about 2 countries attacked within 2 years and governement officials mouthing off about consequences for those who didnt not back the war?


<"poverty prevention"
Have you looked at your socialist tax rate lately? or are you to living off the governments Tit.>

However it DOES work
cost of life goes accordingly, jobless people have some kind of backup fund with welfare and in the end none of uss poor taxed bastards REALLY see a difference

sure im missing about 75$ on my paycheck but i more than got it back considering the many times ive gotten free healthcare

<"culture"
No other country in the world has such a divers culture.>

Well as a matter of fact, regardless of what you may believe, immigration is a common thing...most western countries have it, this is NOT unique

"gun restriction"
<Look at the countries who have disarmed their citizens, UK, Jamaica, etc etc. And then look at the double digit increase in violent crime. Never mind Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Chairman Mow. All advocates of gun control.>

Canada baby!
crime rate is very low and i dont even know someone who knows someone who knows someone who owns a gun outside of perhaps a hunting rifle, the streets are safe and i dont know anyone who is even remotely scared of being attacked, not even girls

tho i do understand the reason for wide gun possession related to the governement, every foreing left winger's hope of a second us civil war lies in this
(note: im not one of those)

<"humanist education"
Perhaps we should close our eyes to the real world, hold hands and sing Koombaya. That will keep the children safe with food in their stomachs.>

Of course! everyone knows that we're all a big family and we all love each other, i like to ride unicorns go leprechaun hunting on weekends too...
what's a humanist education anyways and how is it different from non-humanist??
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#5 donquijote

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Posted 25 April 2003 - 09:46 PM

Originally posted by sl0tw0n
why do you feel threatened by the US?>
hahah

<"humanist education"
Perhaps we should close our eyes to the real world, hold hands and sing Koombaya. That will keep the children safe with food in their stomachs.>

Of course! everyone knows that we're all a big family and we all love each other, i like to ride unicorns go leprechaun hunting on weekends too...
what's a humanist education anyways and how is it different from non-humanist??



All the difference in the world. I'm afraid the concept of 'God' compound a situation of plain power and greed. Certainly we are witnessing a fight between 'gods' as much as a fight over resources...

Will a superpower conformed by Swedes or even Europeans posed the same danger? I doubt it.

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#6 Guest__*

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Posted 26 April 2003 - 04:13 AM

DQ: No, it won't. But it'll be a good beginning. After we stop senseless wars we can begin feeding the 800 million people who needlessly go hungry in this world, 300 million of them children...


I find this statement somewhat amusing considering America funds more foreign aid (including food of course) than anyone else.

Bring in the UN to feed everyone...(who do you think is paying the lion's share of that bill?)

Don't kid yourself...America is out to do the right thing...and if you don't like it, it's likely because you're just jealous your gov't doesn't have the balls to do what's right (period).:D
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#7 donquijote

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Posted 26 April 2003 - 06:59 PM

Originally posted by dwood
DQ: No, it won't. But it'll be a good beginning. After we stop senseless wars we can begin feeding the 800 million people who needlessly go hungry in this world, 300 million of them children...


I find this statement somewhat amusing considering America funds more foreign aid (including food of course) than anyone
else.

DQ: I think Japan is #1 by now. But the point is while fortunes are squandered through wars millions go hungry. Meanwhile policies that encourage real development --education, health, sustainable agriculture-- are never pursued and often supressed...


Bring in the UN to feed everyone...(who do you think is paying the lion's share of that bill?)

Don't kid yourself...America is out to do the right thing...and if you don't like it, it's likely because you're just jealous your gov't doesn't have the balls to do what's right (period).:D


DQ: I'm afraid America's foreign policies are after some other interests...

HOW POLITICS WORKS

(This little, tiny story is part of a series, in which I explain to my little daughter how things work.)

Politics works like this: Big People of Big Country buy Big People of Little Country, who, by the way, will be elected in "democratic elections" thanks to big bucks; Big People of Big Country give big loans to Little Country (of course, to buy "made in Big Country"); Big People of Little Country pocket a big chunk, without ever investing in real development (education, health, the environment, etc); Little People of Little Country work for ever to pay back what they never got; Big People of Little Country thank Big People of Big Country in the name of Little Country, and promise to repay the big debt; and Little People of Little Country get big promises, just like Little People of Big Country. And they lived happily ever after...
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#8 Mark7567

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Posted 26 April 2003 - 08:11 PM

Well thats how it is!

Your right, as all in the human race we tend to be human i.e selfish, greedy, ignirant etc... And we take advantage of those who are in a worse position.


I hate it when people blame America all the time because of their on own problems(Nr. Im not American). I think thogh at the same time there should be some sort test to be American President. So that Republican Oil grabbin cowboys are not elected(im not nameming any names *cough* bush)

America join the EU. That is would not happen. The whole point of the EU is for France and Germany and Spain to take advantage of other countries e.g Scottish waters. Damn Brussels!


:mad: :D :D



Doing whats right. Right in your mind. What is good for one is probably not good for the one at the other end.



America I am sure, if it continues down this path, of being 'moraly superior' to all the other cultures in the Universe (obviosly :D ), the Americans are heading for international isolation. And when that trade stops, America stops, for America does not have the resoarces to support herself.

Isolation is the only way America can be tamed!
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#9 donquijote

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Posted 26 April 2003 - 08:38 PM

Originally posted by Mark7567
Well thats how it is!

Your right, as all in the human race we tend to be human i.e selfish, greedy, ignirant etc... And we take advantage of those who are in a worse position.

DQ: The solution would be to make the 'little people' independent from the 'big people'. I know two ways: Either self-employment or COOPERATIVES (say like in Denmark where the folk school specifically taught the little ones that they didn't the big ones).


I hate it when people blame America all the time because of their on own problems(Nr. Im not American).

DQ: America is NOT the only problem, her power to decide life or death to mankind, though, make her dangerous. And it's not only war but also her attitude toward the environment (say the Kyoto Protocol).


I think thogh at the same time there should be some sort test to be American President. So that Republican Oil grabbin cowboys are not elected(im not nameming any names *cough* bush)

PD: I got a good test: learn the meaning of "saving" :) which obviously they ignore...


America I am sure, if it continues down this path, of being 'moraly superior' to all the other cultures in the Universe (obviosly :D ), the Americans are heading for international isolation. And when that trade stops, America stops, for America does not have the resoarces to support herself.

Isolation is the only way America can be tamed!



DQ: I'm not so sure about that. Latin America ain't there for nothing, if you know what I mean...

Peace and Love

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#10 Mark7567

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Posted 26 April 2003 - 08:44 PM

Latin America may be full of sattelite states, but can Americans run their cars on coffee? For last time I checked American Venusalian relations were not harmonius!
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#11 donquijote

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Posted 26 April 2003 - 08:48 PM

Originally posted by Mark7567
Latin America may be full of sattelite states, but can Americans run their cars on coffee? For last time I checked American Venusalian relations were not harmonius!



(I'm not sure if you are reading me good. Please let me know.)

Well, out of the superpowers America is the one with the most resources (probably blessed by God :). But then maybe it'll learn the meaning of 'saving'...

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#12 Mark7567

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Posted 26 April 2003 - 08:56 PM

Well, actually it's Russia who has the most resources.


Thats why i was saying that if America was isolated she could not support herself, for she does not have the natural resoarces. Maybe shes got some but she has not got enough.



Not reading you right??

With international preasure the Latin American countries would come round. That why evn though America is the only superpower, she is still vunerable.
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#13 GORDILL

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Posted 27 April 2003 - 05:16 AM

I can assure the world that America likes who we are, and what we are. If you feel the same way about your country, go ahead and enjoy it.

Why is it necessary to run another nation down that is not hurting you?

Our two recent wars? Hell yes! It's not in the best interest of your health to attack Amrica. We won't take it, we'll hit back! Hard!

If you are jealous of our wealth, just go to work yourself, save your money, invest it, and in a few years you can be rich as well!
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#14 Mark7567

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Posted 27 April 2003 - 10:16 AM

I'm not not speaking badly of America because i dont like her. I'm just saying it how it is.

I don't know why you can sit there and stereotype everything, for not all Americans are welthy. In fact 30% of the population are below the pverty line.

Not everything is in black and white ter,s so don't see it that way.

I dont hate America, I dont dislike America. I'm not a socialist.
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#15 Dr. Arthur Ide

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Posted 27 April 2003 - 11:23 AM

Originally posted by donquijote
(I'm not sure if you are reading me good. Please let me know.)

Well, out of the superpowers America is the one with the most resources (probably blessed by God :). But then maybe it'll learn the meaning of 'saving'...

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All nations see themselves as "blessed by god" and believe that they are the "chosen people" as it is to their best interest. America is no more blessed than is any other nation. America's wealth is because of geophysics and because past generations of Americans stole it from its original inhabitants--the Indians. That means, in short, that America's blessings are the product of theft. In turn that means that the god(s) of America endorse theft, murder, rape, pillage, and war. That is why America goes to war--not to find weapons of mass destruction which never existed--but to placate its god of war in the same way that Rome went to war to appease the blood lust of its god Mars.
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#16 Mark7567

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Posted 27 April 2003 - 11:29 AM

You are right in my opinion about where America has got her wealth.


She plundered the natives and is now doing it with other nations!


But she also got her wealth in being isolated, lack of war with the great powers of the time.
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#17 Dr. Arthur Ide

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Posted 27 April 2003 - 11:29 AM

GORDILL is, sadly, correct. America was founded on war and grew strong on war to cover its theft, its pillaging of the planet, as it covered its slavery and today ignores its poor.

Yes, GORDILL is correct, in the argument that America thinks with its guns not its brains, feeling that war is the answer, and "won't take it, we'll hit back! Hard!" This will not stop until some power drops bombs on American cities, for no nation is invulnerable, just obstinate. America has never wanted to work with the world in equal partnership, but seeks only to control as did ancient Rome, and the Third Reich of Hitler. Now America has it own Hitler, and it will come out to bloody all opposition as the president select has endorsed the politics of assassination. It is too bad that this endorsement hasn't generated a call for his death by other nations that are subject to his evil intents.

As for GODRILL's comment, "If you are jealous of our wealth, just go to work yourself, save your money, invest it, and in a few years you can be rich as well!" Most Americans work hard. They save. They never get ahead, for the sources of wealth are controlled by 1% of the people, and the avenues for advancement are in the hands of 2%. Poverty increases daily as the rich get richer and the poor go deeper into debt. But this is the American dream.

There are Americans, like me, who are working to change this, but until their is a regime change in America, the rogue Administration and its corrupt military supporting it will continue to abuse the masses. John Ashcroft has perfected his goon squad to be more ambitious than the legendary SS or KGB--and they are more dangerous. While in power the world is not safe.
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#18 Dr. Arthur Ide

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Posted 27 April 2003 - 11:33 AM

Originally posted by Mark7567
You are right in my opinion about where America has got her wealth.


She plundered the natives and is now doing it with other nations!


But she also got her wealth in being isolated, lack of war with the great powers of the time.



The only true source of wealth, Mark 7567, is labor, and America's titans of Industry--The Rockefellers, Carnegies, etc.--raped America's labor to enrich themselves and build their castles of grandeur. It is because of the extremes in poverty and wealth that the poor play the lottery in a hope that they someday through magic will be rich. It is for that reason that the poor voted for the rich--and still do so as only the rich can afford to run for public office. And when labor complains, evil corporations such as EDS and GM and others take their industries out of the USA to poor nations to further steal the time and energy of its people to build wealth for themselves.

To keep the world buying American goods--goods which are no longer of quality of longevity but fall apart quickly with the motto of having built in obsolence--the military is sent to war--to destroy nations like Iraq--so that contractors from America can go into this lands to rebuild them and then send their people the bill.
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#19 Dr. Arthur Ide

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Posted 27 April 2003 - 11:47 AM

America is not a land of freedom and democracy. The last election for president proved that, for an unelected electoral college put in W Bush, not the majority of Americans who cast votes that were counted.

America is not a land of milk, honey and opportunity. Blacks still make up the lion's share of those unemployed. Women are still discriminated against and make a great deal less then men for doing the same work. Sexual minorities are not hired, and if they are silly enough to join the military, they are drummed out.

The European vote of 19 to 3 in favor of US policy was cast because of dependency on American dollars. It had nothing to do with the justness of the claims of this rogue administration.

America is rife with crime. It has always been so. And criminals are glamorized as was Al Capone, Scarface, and others, as they lived what appeared to be an enchanted life.

Our friend who writes, "Why do the people who need the best possible health care come to the US?" is out of touch with reality. More than 22% of all aged Americans go to Canada for cheapers prescriptions and medical attention. 32% of all abortions are done in Mexico and Scandinavia. We have socialized medicine in the USA. It is known as Medicare and Medicaid.

There is more poverty in America than anywhere else in the First World of wealth. There is more hunger, and child abuse, than anywhere else in the First World of wealth. Fortunately, because of the tax structure in Europe, Europe doesn't have this evil. They take care of their own, while Americans prefer to see others suffer unless they confess their religious ideas.

Guns for American men are the extension of their penis--a tool to exercise their manhood and get what they can obtain by logic or through reason and labor. It is because of the accessibility of guns that we have the highest crime rate in the civilized world. It is becaue of guns that we have bred a group of calloused people who think war is glorious. And it will be by guns that this nation perishes, for civil war is always rumored. The gun advocates forget that the founding fathers in writing the Constitution said that the ownership of guns is to be with a standing militia in times of war. No where does it say that people have a right to own guns just for that purpose.

It is because of guns that our schools are terrorized. Not just the recent issue in Pennsylvania, but in Colorado, Illinois, Texas, Iowa, etc. etc. Even in rural Iowa, my home, we had a college student plant bombs in rural mailboxes, injurying the elderly. There is no peace in America and so everyone keeps their door locked fearing that they will be like the foreign student in Louisiana who was shot to death by an enraged father who thought his daughter was in the same house--she was 2 blocks away.

Humanist education means to study that which is provable. It doesnot include the waste of time studying religion or other unprovable issues. We need more study of grains and natural resources, to "keep the children safe with food in their stomachs."

"crossfire between 'gods" what gods or goddesses? whose gods or goddesses? Why is there even a need for this mythology? It does not put food on the table, and as for "manna"--no it does not mean bread in the original language--but birds--falling from heaven--that is an old wives tale from central Europe that the ancient Habiru incorporated in their canon of religious literature along with the myth of Moses taken from the Egyptian records of Thutmoses III.
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#20 donquijote

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Posted 27 April 2003 - 08:17 PM

Originally posted by Dr. Arthur Ide
America is not a land of freedom and democracy. The last election for president proved that, for an unelected electoral college put in W Bush, not the majority of Americans who cast votes that were counted.

America is not a land of milk, honey and opportunity. Blacks still make up the lion's share of those unemployed. Women are still discriminated against and make a great deal less then men for doing the same work. Sexual minorities are not hired, and if they are silly enough to join the military, they are drummed out.

The European vote of 19 to 3 in favor of US policy was cast because of dependency on American dollars. It had nothing to do with the justness of the claims of this rogue administration.

America is rife with crime. It has always been so. And criminals are glamorized as was Al Capone, Scarface, and others, as they lived what appeared to be an enchanted life.

Our friend who writes, "Why do the people who need the best possible health care come to the US?" is out of touch with reality. More than 22% of all aged Americans go to Canada for cheapers prescriptions and medical attention. 32% of all abortions are done in Mexico and Scandinavia. We have socialized medicine in the USA. It is known as Medicare and Medicaid.

There is more poverty in America than anywhere else in the First World of wealth. There is more hunger, and child abuse, than anywhere else in the First World of wealth. Fortunately, because of the tax structure in Europe, Europe doesn't have this evil. They take care of their own, while Americans prefer to see others suffer unless they confess their religious ideas.

Guns for American men are the extension of their penis--a tool to exercise their manhood and get what they can obtain by logic or through reason and labor. It is because of the accessibility of guns that we have the highest crime rate in the civilized world. It is becaue of guns that we have bred a group of calloused people who think war is glorious. And it will be by guns that this nation perishes, for civil war is always rumored. The gun advocates forget that the founding fathers in writing the Constitution said that the ownership of guns is to be with a standing militia in times of war. No where does it say that people have a right to own guns just for that purpose.

It is because of guns that our schools are terrorized. Not just the recent issue in Pennsylvania, but in Colorado, Illinois, Texas, Iowa, etc. etc. Even in rural Iowa, my home, we had a college student plant bombs in rural mailboxes, injurying the elderly. There is no peace in America and so everyone keeps their door locked fearing that they will be like the foreign student in Louisiana who was shot to death by an enraged father who thought his daughter was in the same house--she was 2 blocks away.

Humanist education means to study that which is provable. It doesnot include the waste of time studying religion or other unprovable issues. We need more study of grains and natural resources, to "keep the children safe with food in their stomachs."





ALL QUIET ON THE HOMEFRONT

(Recommended viewing or reading: "All Quiet on the Western Front," by Erich Remarque)

Now that the Marines are being used to fight the problems of the world, it occurs to me of some other place where they are so badly needed.

The country I'm speaking about has the chilling record of 30,000 human beings killed by firearms each year. It is so dangerous that the streets have become no man's land. People live with so much fear that they refuse to talk to strangers. Shoot-outs break out among gangs in the middle of the street. Tourists are assaulted at gunpoint if they don't follow the map given at the airport. It's so, but so bad that kids, fed with violence on TV, take guns to school, taking innocent lives. Meanwhile, guns are openly sold.

I was going to say what place I am talking about, but I'd better say goodbye because I see a stranger coming my way...

Teen Killed by Two Armed Home Intruders

Source: WSVN, channel 7, Miami.

FORT LAUDERDALE -- A 15-year-old is shot to death by two home intruders.

On Friday, March 21, 2003 at approximately 1:50 AM, two men entered the residence, located at 92 N.E. 59 Terr. Once inside, the offenders demanded money from the occupants.

For some unknown reason, one of the offenders shot 15-year-old Anthony White, who died a short time later at Jackson Memorial Hospital.

After shooting White, the offenders held the other family members at gunpoint and demanded money.

Ultimately, a small amount of money was taken and the suspects fled the scene.

Violence is the American Way at...

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