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Can America be tamed?


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#61 Bede

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 01:25 AM

Gordill,

So you get off on listening to socialists piss. In my books that makes you some kind of a pervert. I don't know where you ever got the idea that socialists don't work. I do. And damned hard.

On the other hand what about the corporate welfare bums? How hard do they work? Don't forget to take your boots off when you go to bed. Pas de classe!

Seriously, what on earth is it that a red neck like you gets out of reading ?????? besides all spattered with urine?

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#62 Guest__*

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 01:29 AM

Also, anyone that truly believes America is going to monopolize the oil coming out of Iraq...I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. c'mon...

Then again...you look at the following and maybe you see why non-Americans have a poor view of the whole thing:

http://www.targetoil...Oil_War2003.pdf



Why don't you just view us like the Borg then...come be assimilated...it won't hurt...honest. :P
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#63 donquijote

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 02:08 PM

Originally posted by Gaddock
Donq,
Holy crap! what a bunch of rambling tangents. Forget to take your meds today???



No, this it therapy to me.

PS: Why don't you answer them?

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#64 Auld Nick

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 02:21 PM

For myself, I don't blame all the world's problems on Dubya. He is not bright enough to create them. What worries me is the way the US administration, most of it unelected, has hijacked the Pres. and is leading him carefully in the direction of a New World Order in which US-style democracy and "civilisation" will be mandatory. Our own prime minister, originally the leader of a democratic socialist party, is now far to the right of our conservative opposition, having bought the same arguments. Like many Europeans, I see an end to cultural diversity, and to the freedom to do anything but make money and spend it. Understand this, and you may understand why this forum gets so bitter occasionally.
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#65 donquijote

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 02:23 PM

Originally posted by boppie
Hello everyone,

I like what the jack attack has inserted into this forum. The USA happens to be the big dog. Lucky for the world, we also happen to have a great society that respects the rights of people. We have a strong moral fiber that will ensure that justice will exist in the equation. Perhaps there WILL be some corruption. Let's all be thankful that the corruption is on the scale that it is. It could be MUCH worse. Bush could be gassing racial groups in mass, or simply exterminating all that oppose. Regardless of what the posters claim, this is NOT happening, at least on any scale even remotely resembling some of the powers of history!

The USA is the big gorilla, but a reasonable gorilla. Or, to quote another thread, the lion. Use the lion, work WITH the lion. Don't piss off the lion. That is just not intelligent.

Thanks! And good day!



OK, so the little animals learn to bear with and even admire the lion because they think that be feeding him one little animal at a time, the'll be safe...

No they won't. To begin with, the 'law of the jungle' will only exacerbate insecurety for all, because when the 'belligerent monkeys' (as opposed to the 'peaceful monkeys' --us) strike back the may do it at random (thing which, of course, we all should be opposed to as much as being opposed to the lion), threatening all the animals, big and small. Secondly, the greedy lion threatens the survival of the jungle itself by carelessly dilapidating its resources and polluting everything, without concern for future generations...

Morale: Either confront violence in all its forms... or perish.

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#66 donquijote

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 02:34 PM

Originally posted by GORDILL
I like to stop by these boards and listen to the socialists pissing and moaning.

If they all got jobs and went to work, saved their money, they might amount to something some day.

Instead they are waiting to divide up what the working people have produced.

Small wonder they don't have anything worth having.



Try what the 'socialists' have accomplished in Scandinavia...

It often has been cited as the 'Scandinavian model,' where Utopia
seems to be taking place, but where exactly is it leading?

Well, I've put together a number of areas where, in my opinion, it's
taking the lead...

-cooperatives (Denmark), particularly in agriculture.

-employee ownership.

-bike lanes along all major streets (Copenhagen), a proposal at this
stage.

-food safety (Denmark and Sweden), tackling salmonella and hormones.

-banning of TV ads for children under 12.

-child care financed with public money.

-no serious poverty.

-the environment, in particular Iceland has promised to do away with
oil.

-peace efforts in foreign policy (Norway)...

Would the world be a safer place by following their example? I believe
so...

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#67 donquijote

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 02:49 PM

Originally posted by dwood
Also, anyone that truly believes America is going to monopolize the oil coming out of Iraq...I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. c'mon...

Then again...you look at the following and maybe you see why non-Americans have a poor view of the whole thing:

http://www.targetoil...Oil_War2003.pdf



Why don't you just view us like the Borg then...come be assimilated...it won't hurt...honest. :P



Awesome analysis. I thought yor were on the side of the lion though... :)

OIL BREEDS WAR. We are launching a campaign called: BIKE FOR PEACE... DON'T BURN OIL... BURN THE CALORIES!

We need the fat man in the example before...

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#68 Guest_isrdeu_*

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 03:19 PM

Once in the jungle two blind orphans were born, a snake and a lion. Both didn't knew what are they until they coincidentally met on this board. The lion , due to his blindness treaded the snake and said :" I'm sorry, you must excuse me, since I'm blind and orphan , and nobody told me who I am". "Oh" said the snkae, "I am blind myself and an orphan too and nobody told me ever who and what I'm. Let me feel you by touch and by the tactile structure of your body I'll tell you who and what are you". The lion agreed and the snake touched the lion and after 1 minute said: "You are strong, with a large mane, sometimes you roar and sometimes you are like a big kitten - you must be a lion". "Thank you my dear ally, now I understand that I'm the king of the jungle. Let me now find by tactile touching who are you". After more than a hour the lion said : "Your are smooth slippery, you have double tongue, I did find any spine , and wher are you hiding your balls? I guess you are a European".
Both new allys went each on his way. On their way to this board they met few rats. As the lion sensed with whom he is dealing he roared in order to enforce jungle laws and rats ran quickly to their holes. The snake, now aware of his new position convinced the rats to get out of their holes and defy the lion's share and the rest is written in the history of the UN and in this board.
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#69 Auld Nick

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 03:30 PM

You've posted this before, haven't you? But you keep getting it wrong:

"Thank you my dear ally, now I understand that I'm the king of the jungle. Let me now find by tactile touching who are you". After more than a hour the lion said : "Your are smooth slippery, you have double tongue, I did (sic, but you must mean didn't) find any spine , and wher are you hiding your balls? I guess you are ........"


.......Tony Blair.
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#70 Guest_isrdeu_*

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 03:47 PM

Great Britain was never part of Europe (I got your point Tony), not in spirit neither in principles. Thanks for your corrections (English is not my mother's tongue) and finaly not, I am new on this board and it the first time I post this scope on this board.

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#71 donquijote

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 04:08 PM

Originally posted by isrdeu
Once in the jungle two blind orphans were born, a snake and a lion. Both didn't knew what are they until they coincidentally met on this board. The lion , due to his blindness treaded the snake and said :" I'm sorry, you must excuse me, since I'm blind and orphan , and nobody told me who I am". "Oh" said the snkae, "I am blind myself and an orphan too and nobody told me ever who and what I'm. Let me feel you by touch and by the tactile structure of your body I'll tell you who and what are you". The lion agreed and the snake touched the lion and after 1 minute said: "You are strong, with a large mane, sometimes you roar and sometimes you are like a big kitten - you must be a lion". "Thank you my dear ally, now I understand that I'm the king of the jungle. Let me now find by tactile touching who are you". After more than a hour the lion said : "Your are smooth slippery, you have double tongue, I did find any spine , and wher are you hiding your balls? I guess you are a European".
Both new allys went each on his way. On their way to this board they met few rats. As the lion sensed with whom he is dealing he roared in order to enforce jungle laws and rats ran quickly to their holes. The snake, now aware of his new position convinced the rats to get out of their holes and defy the lion's share and the rest is written in the history of the UN and in this board.



At that point, though, some of the rats thought this way: "If I'm friend of the lion, I'll get to eat from his scraps." While some others thought: "If I'm a friend of the snake, the lion will eat me"...

And that's how the snake decided that the lion wasn't worth it a fight, and went back into her dark little hole too...

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#72 donquijote

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 04:17 PM

Originally posted by isrdeu
Once in the jungle two blind orphans were born, a snake and a lion. Both didn't knew what are they until they coincidentally met on this board. The lion , due to his blindness treaded the snake and said :" I'm sorry, you must excuse me, since I'm blind and orphan , and nobody told me who I am". "Oh" said the snkae, "I am blind myself and an orphan too and nobody told me ever who and what I'm. Let me feel you by touch and by the tactile structure of your body I'll tell you who and what are you". The lion agreed and the snake touched the lion and after 1 minute said: "You are strong, with a large mane, sometimes you roar and sometimes you are like a big kitten - you must be a lion". "Thank you my dear ally, now I understand that I'm the king of the jungle. Let me now find by tactile touching who are you". After more than a hour the lion said : "Your are smooth slippery, you have double tongue, I did find any spine , and wher are you hiding your balls? I guess you are a European".
Both new allys went each on his way. On their way to this board they met few rats. As the lion sensed with whom he is dealing he roared in order to enforce jungle laws and rats ran quickly to their holes. The snake, now aware of his new position convinced the rats to get out of their holes and defy the lion's share and the rest is written in the history of the UN and in this board.



Excellent story... I think the rats got the point.

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#73 Guest_isrdeu_*

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 04:28 PM

Originally posted by donquijote
Excellent story... I think the rats got the point.

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Thanks.

;)
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#74 the jack attack

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 04:46 PM

Yes, funny story.

So, was don a rat or a snake? I have a guess...

It seems like snakes and rats are trying to tame the lion, with sharp jabs and ridicule. Perhaps the lion needs to tame the snakes and rats? Or eat them.

This reminds me of a "deep thought" from an old S.N.L. episode. It went something like this:

"I bet people would not be so casual about cutting down trees if trees could scream. Unless they screamed all the time, for no good reason."

(I think that's a proper recitation of the deep thought. If anyone has the deep thoughts book [which is hilarious, BTW], then please correct me.)
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#75 donquijote

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 05:57 PM

Originally posted by the jack attack
Yes, funny story.

So, was don a rat or a snake? I have a guess...

It seems like snakes and rats are trying to tame the lion, with sharp jabs and ridicule. Perhaps the lion needs to tame the snakes and rats? Or eat them.

This reminds me of a "deep thought" from an old S.N.L. episode. It went something like this:

"I bet people would not be so casual about cutting down trees if trees could scream. Unless they screamed all the time, for no good reason."

(I think that's a proper recitation of the deep thought. If anyone has the deep thoughts book [which is hilarious, BTW], then please correct me.)



I'm a pacifist monkey (homo pacificus)... The belligerent monkeys (homo belicosus) are the ones trying to get the lion through violence. We know what they going through, but we can't possibly share their methods. Both the lion and the belligerent monkeys threaten the jungle by their stupidity and/or greed.

The little animals, as always, suffer the consequences...

PS: Jack, are you ready to die for cheese?

Deep thoughts: "My struggle is not against the puppet, but against the puppeteer"

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#76 donquijote

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 06:10 PM

Will the Lion (power, greed, individualism, violence, fanatism) or the Monkey (intelligence, generosity, cooperation, nonviolence, enlightenment) win? seems to be the crucial question posed here...

September 11th and Its Aftermath: Where is the World Heading?

Noam Chomsky

(This is only a brief summary; please write for full text.)

Public Lecture at the Music Academy, Chennai (Madras), India: November
10, 2001

Presented by Frontline magazine and the Media Development Foundation and
supported by 22 representative organizations

A few years ago, one of the great figures of contemporary biology, Ernst
Mayr of Harvard published some reflections on the search for
extra-terrestrial intelligence. His conclusion was that the likelihood
of success was effectively zero. His reasoning had to do with the
adaptive value of what we call higher intelligence, meaning the
particular human form of intellectual organisation. Mayr estimates the
number of species since the origin of life at about 50 billion, only one
of which, he writes, achieved the kind of intelligence needed to
establish a civilisation. It did so very recently, perhaps a hundred
thousand years ago in a small breeding group of which we are all
survivors. And he speculates that this form of intellectual organisation
may not be favoured by selection, and points out that life on earth
refutes the claim that "it's better to be smart than stupid," at least
judging by biological success, which is great for beetles and bacteria
but not so good as you move higher up the level of cognitive
organisation. And he also makes the rather sombre observation that the
average life expectancy of a species is about a hundred thousand years.
We are entering a period of human life that may provide an answer to the
question of whether it's better to be smart than stupid. The most
hopeful prospect is that the question will not be answered. If it
receives a definite answer, that answer can only be that humans were a
kind of biological error, using their allotted hundred thousand years to
destroy themselves and, in the process, much else. The species has
certainly developed the capacity to do just that, and an
extra-terrestrial observer, if one could exist, might conclude that they
have demonstrated that capacity throughout their history, dramatically
in the past several hundred years, with an assault on the environment
that sustains life, on the diversity of more complex organisms, and with
cold and calculated savagery, on each other as well. September 11th and
the Aftermath are a case in point.

(snip)

Let s turn to another apparently inexorable tendency -- the destruction of the
environment that sustains human life. The Bush Administration has been
widely criticised for undermining the Kyoto Treaty. The grounds that
they presented are that to conform to the Treaty would harm the U.S.
economy. Those criticisms are rather surprising because the decisions
are entirely rational within the framework of existing ideology. We re
instructed daily to be firm believers in neo-classical markets in which
isolated individuals are rational wealth maximisers. The market responds
perfectly to their votes, which are expressed in currency inputs. The
value of a person s interests is measured the same way. In particular,
the interests of those with no votes, no dollars, those interests are
valued at zero. Future generations, for example, who don t have dollar
inputs in the market.
So it's therefore entirely rational to destroy the possibility for
decent survival for our grandchildren, if by doing so we can maximise
the particular form of self-interest that's hailed as the highest value,
reinforced by vast industries that are devoted to implanting and
reinforcing them. The threats to survival are currently being enhanced
by dedicated efforts to weaken the institutional structures that have
been developed to mitigate the harsh consequences of market
fundamentalism and, even more important, to undermine the culture of
sympathy and solidarity that sustains these institutions. Well, that's
another prescription for disaster, perhaps in the not very distant
future -- but again it's rational within a lunatic system of doctrines
and institutions.

(snip)

These developments could prove very important if the momentum can be
sustained in ways that deepen the bonds of sympathy and solidarity and
interaction that have been developing. And I think it's fair to say that
the future of our endangered species may be determined in no small
measure by how these popular forces evolve [prolonged audience
applause].

"Nonviolence is the answer to the crucial political and moral question of our time; the need for man to overcome oppression and violence without resorting to oppression and violence" -M.L. King

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#77 the jack attack

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 06:20 PM

Don,

Are you too self righteous to see your own strings? Maybe the lion is swiping at your puppeteer. Could it be that you are a mere pawn in your own illusion?

I'll let the mice die for cheese.

Death comes to us all. Only a few are blessed with life... the creators of destiny. For the rest, they can critique, evaluate, speculate, wish, dream, and exist at the whim of fate.

Is your feast the fray or the editorials? You should really look in the mirror and follow the strings. You might learn something. You are not an island, none of us are. We are a world with 5 billion religions, and 5 billion political parties. I belong to mine, and you yours... Never forget the strings... You may find me tugging at the end of one of yours...
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#78 the jack attack

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 06:29 PM

The environmentalist pitch... wow... your sinking lower and lower don.

Add a new species to ANY environment... they will disrupt it in a variety of ways. Disruption of the environment is a natural as it gets.

All animals use resources and pollute in their own ways. Our pollution will kill some things and give rise to others. Step out of the box, don. Look at the bigger picture. And get off the soap box and try gripping reality for a moment.

Condem the human race all you want. I love the human race. I think we are very creative and extremely resourceful. We will adapt until we can no longer adapt... someday, we might die. Is this anyone's fault? Or is it just a symptom of nature? Are you so high minded that you surpass the laws of nature, don? Are you an eternal kind of species that is forever harmonious with our great mother earth... bull crackers.

When you wake up... Peace.
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#79 donquijote

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 06:38 PM

Originally posted by the jack attack
Don,

Are you too self righteous to see your own strings? Maybe the lion is swiping at your puppeteer. Could it be that you are a mere pawn in your own illusion?

I'll let the mice die for cheese.

Death comes to us all. Only a few are blessed with life... the creators of destiny. For the rest, they can critique, evaluate, speculate, wish, dream, and exist at the whim of fate.

Is your feast the fray or the editorials? You should really look in the mirror and follow the strings. You might learn something. You are not an island, none of us are. We are a world with 5 billion religions, and 5 billion political parties. I belong to mine, and you yours... Never forget the strings... You may find me tugging at the end of one of yours...



Well the puppeteer is the one that thinks he's got it right ('democracy' for this, 'democracy' for that), that he's above the law (withdrawing from treaties, eg. Kyoto Protocol) and in general having his puppets dance to his tune...

I know we are part of the same web, but he seems to forget --or couldn't care less-- how fragile it is...

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#80 donquijote

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 06:48 PM

Originally posted by the jack attack
The environmentalist pitch... wow... your sinking lower and lower don.

Add a new species to ANY environment... they will disrupt it in a variety of ways. Disruption of the environment is a natural as it gets.

All animals use resources and pollute in their own ways. Our pollution will kill some things and give rise to others. Step out of the box, don. Look at the bigger picture. And get off the soap box and try gripping reality for a moment.

Condem the human race all you want. I love the human race. I think we are very creative and extremely resourceful. We will adapt until we can no longer adapt... someday, we might die. Is this anyone's fault? Or is it just a symptom of nature? Are you so high minded that you surpass the laws of nature, don? Are you an eternal kind of species that is forever harmonious with our great mother earth... bull crackers.

When you wake up... Peace.



It's part of the same thing, all being connected like you preach --in the abscense.

The mighty hungry lion threatens the stability of the jungle by war and pollution. It all amounts to the same thing: Power and Greed...

PS: In your system of values, defending the environment means 'sinking'? What's the highest, waging war?

PS: Hey, Rambo, I mean Jack, check it out...



DON QUIXOTE VS RAMBO!

When the environmental crisis worsens, how can one remain passive? Neither the Rio Earth Summit nor the Kyoto Protocol*, regrettably, will do much for the crisis.

I have been long enough on this planet to witness the rampant abuse of resources. We still cherish, here in America, the big, fat SUV and the motor boat.

I have, however, a few earthy proposals:

1. INCREASE THE PRICE OF GASOLINE, such as in Europe and Japan. The revenue so raised could be used to IMPROVE ALTERNATIVE TRANSPORTATION, from fast trains to the creation of bicycle paths along all major streets.

2. Open letters from parents to children, perhaps encouraged via the schools, in which the parents vow to specific lifestyle changes. Such letters are to be conspicuously displayed in the home. Say, for example, it could say "ride bicycle to work", etc.

Let's not only give our children their lives, but the chance to live it as well. Don Quixote would have said: "Sancho, let's go for him!"

* The U.S. unilaterally withdrew from the Kyoto Protocol...



SOURCE: The New York Times of February 15, 1996. (While this article refers to one period of cheaper prices, the fact remains: Gasoline is way too cheap to encourage conservation. Proof of that are the ever larger SUVs on American roads.)

(CAPTION ON PHOTO: "Mary and David McIntosh, with their four children and two Chevrolet Suburban sport utility vehicles, sometimes exceed 70 mph driving for weekend ski trips. Energy specialists say these driving habits are typical of Americans." [The McIntoshes smile.])

WITH PRICES LOW, GASOLINE GUZZLING MAKES A COMEBACK
By Agis Salpukas

Gas guzzling is back.
Americans are driving bigger cars and trucks longer distances and at higher speeds -ignoring warnings about increased pollution or another oil shock.

And why not? [!] Gas costs less, in inflation-adjusted terms, than at any time since the 1950's, the golden era of gas guzzling, when metallic monsters with fins spewed noxious fumes and got 10 miles to the gallon in city traffic.

Today, gas is so cheap that Mary McIntosh never looks at the price signs when she goes to fill up the 40-gallon tank of her hulking Chevrolet Suburban spot utility vehicle. She just pulls the truck, which seats nine people, into the first Mobil station she sees -because she has a Mobil credit card. "I zip it through and that's it," she said in her living room here as her husband, David, who drives his own Suburban, nodded in approval...

Today, the forces of the marketplace and the work place [?] seem to be conspiring to erase Americans' former energy austerity [referring to the conservationist fervor that swept the nation after the Arab oil embargo of 1973].

Millions of Americans, like the McIntoshes, find that the cost of gasoline barely dents their budget. Adjusted for inflation, the current average price of $1.14 for a gallon of unleaded gasoline is only half what it was in the early 1980's.

Meantime, the long-term trend away from using mass transportation to get to work continues. Between 1980 and 1990, for example, when 18 million jobs were created, 22 million more commuters hit the highways rather than the train or bus -usually driving alone.

The McIntoshes chose their Suburbans, which barely get 12 mpg in local traffic, two years ago because they were big enough to ferry their children and all their gear, and because the hefty size made Mrs. McIntosh feel safer, especially with a toddler in the car. "I know it's so American," [!] she said. "It's big and has a lot of power."

Another factor whetting the national thirst for gasoline is the continuing suburbanization of America, making long drives essential to keeping in touch with friends. Wellington Sears, a 74-year old retired engineer, drives 15 miles in his 1987 Lincoln to get free coffee and play bingo along with dozens of other retired people at the Caldor department store in the Fayetteville Mall near Syracuse. His wife drives her Mercury to the same bingo game, and afterwards the two go separately to other malls to meet friends. It burns a lot of gas, Mr. Sears concedes. "I don't care," [!] he said. "I do my thing, she does hers."

And if big is beautiful for many American motorists, very big is back, too. An increasing number of people want to take living room, kitchen and bathroom along when they travel, keeping demand strong for gas-hungry recreational vehicles. In the 1990's sales of these vehicles have grown dramatically, hitting a peak in 1994 and falling slightly last year.

Eric Rector, general manager of a dealership in Clifton Park, NY, walked through his cavernous showroom filled with gleaming white vehicles, which get as little as 8 mpg on the open road. Stepping inside the $150,000 Sun Voyager, he showed how the 13-foot-long living room can be expanded when the vehicle is parked.

"People work hard," he said, "and they work to have fun." [!]

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