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#81 the jack attack

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 07:51 PM

I'll humor you with a reply.

You use "saving the environment" no differently than Bush uses "liberation". It's all double speak, in the end. It's all self interest.

Okay, 5 deer in a meadow. The deer prefer the taste of one grass over another... which will they eat first? What if there is only a little bit of that kind of grass... will they SAVE it for later? Will they replant some in another meadow? No... no... no... They will eat it until it's gone, and one deer will eat it all if he/she can. Those damn deer! What jerks they must be!

More, these same 5 deer have to walk over the hill to the water hole. It so happens that there is an endangered plant that grows only on that hill. The deer, by walking over them, threaten to kill the entire species. The deer could easily walk around the hill, but it would take them twice as long to do it. Do the deer take the long way, or the short way? We know the answer. Those damn deer! They have no respect for nature, the bastards!

Are we really that much different than the deer? Are we not a part of the very same natural system of struggle and adaptation? We are just animals. If you think differently, then keep smoking.

Do you REALLY think that using less gas will somehow save our species? REALLY? Hehe. Life must be pretty simple then. You must cherish the idea that you have control over the natural system?

If oil runs out, and is gone... who gives a crock of spam? We'll use something else. Oil is just a bunch of rotton dino mush. Better to leave it sitting in the ground as a giant tarpit? I'd rather drive while it lasts...

It is SO arrogent to think this recycle crap and conservation crap makes anything but a small dent in world resource consumption. You just trade one resource for another. It consumes resources to recycle...

If we ran out of aluminum, couldn't just mine our landfills? The metal is still there... It hasn't gone anywhere. It just moved from mountain to landfill. Did you know glass is sand? Hehe. Damn. We better be careful, don't want to run out of sand. And so what if we create mounds of plastic and paper... it makes great nests and holes for small mammals. Who are we to say they shouldn't have their plastic fortresses?

Luckily, we can grow the good grass, unlike the deer. And then we can smoke it when we start feeling sorry for ourselves, or if we start feeling so high minded that we need to reach for a new level of "reality"... you know, the one that doesn't really exist.
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#82 donquijote

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 08:26 PM

HOW THE RATS LEARNED TO FLOAT

Once upon a time, in the infancy of navigation, a few rats, who were always afraid of drowning, got together and had this dialogue: "We got to take advantage of the new invention. Have you realized how we could always keep afloat by riding the waves up and down?" "That's true," said the other, "from now on we will sail the seas north and south and east and west, under whatever flag."

One stormy day, though, that the boat took water, the rats discovered an important lesson of navigation they are famous for: "Abandon ship!"

And that's how the rats learned the fine art of navigation in calm seas and turbulent waters, always ready to jump ship...

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#83 donquijote

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 08:34 PM

Originally posted by the jack attack
I'll humor you with a reply.

You use "saving the environment" no differently than Bush uses "liberation". It's all double speak, in the end. It's all self interest.

Okay, 5 deer in a meadow. The deer prefer the taste of one grass over another... which will they eat first? What if there is only a little bit of that kind of grass... will they SAVE it for later? Will they replant some in another meadow? No... no... no... They will eat it until it's gone, and one deer will eat it all if he/she can. Those damn deer! What jerks they must be!

More, these same 5 deer have to walk over the hill to the water hole. It so happens that there is an endangered plant that grows only on that hill. The deer, by walking over them, threaten to kill the entire species. The deer could easily walk around the hill, but it would take them twice as long to do it. Do the deer take the long way, or the short way? We know the answer. Those damn deer! They have no respect for nature, the bastards!

Are we really that much different than the deer? Are we not a part of the very same natural system of struggle and adaptation? We are just animals. If you think differently, then keep smoking.

Do you REALLY think that using less gas will somehow save our species? REALLY? Hehe. Life must be pretty simple then. You must cherish the idea that you have control over the natural system?

If oil runs out, and is gone... who gives a crock of spam? We'll use something else. Oil is just a bunch of rotton dino mush. Better to leave it sitting in the ground as a giant tarpit? I'd rather drive while it lasts...

It is SO arrogent to think this recycle crap and conservation crap makes anything but a small dent in world resource consumption. You just trade one resource for another. It consumes resources to recycle...

If we ran out of aluminum, couldn't just mine our landfills? The metal is still there... It hasn't gone anywhere. It just moved from mountain to landfill. Did you know glass is sand? Hehe. Damn. We better be careful, don't want to run out of sand. And so what if we create mounds of plastic and paper... it makes great nests and holes for small mammals. Who are we to say they shouldn't have their plastic fortresses?

Luckily, we can grow the good grass, unlike the deer. And then we can smoke it when we start feeling sorry for ourselves, or if we start feeling so high minded that we need to reach for a new level of "reality"... you know, the one that doesn't really exist.



What do you mean 'animals' if we are the 'God chosen people,' according to the very lions who claim to defend?

PS: Beside environmental concerns, it ain't the same to live in dirt and litter as to live in a clean environment, like you got, say, in Scandinavia. Unless you consider yourself a pig...

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#84 the jack attack

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 11:16 PM

Is that the best you could do, don? Animals... chosen people... That was lame.

Perhaps it's time to conclude this thread. The question was, "Can America be tamed?" The answer:

America is tame. A tame lion that has certain self interests that will be pursued. The lion will ignore the smaller and weaker self interested ranters, rightfully so. When the sh#t hits the fan, it really doesn't matter why the lion will choose to pounce... whether it be oil, power, ego, money, evil, whatever.

America will rise as a bright sun, creating a form of empire, until the natural cycle of power shifts. There is no sunset in the near future, but it seems the wolves will tempt their fate and confront the lion to their undoing. Even some rabbits will make their stand against the lion... lord only knows why... some higher ideals, they will claim. Those who support the lion will prosper with the lion. Those who oppose the lion will be eaten. Will you be sitting at the dinner table, or will you be the main course? End of story.
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#85 Dr. Arthur Ide

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Posted 01 May 2003 - 10:26 AM

boppie, you are living in a fantasy world, when you argue, "The USA may be holding a torch that will offer a first taste of liberty." If this is so, then why is there so little freedom under the current rogue regime where John Ashcroft is working feverishly to stem if not curb all civil liberties, where dissent is played as the lack of patrioritism by the GOP, and where Blacks and women still do not have equal standing in the USA in areas of income, housing, schooling, etc.

God bless France, the only true nation willing to stand up for its principles, and not be a puppet of W. Bush and company. I am delighted that they are building a counterweight to the American fauning at NATO--an organization of no value since it is leaguing with one power against all who oppose that tyrannical power.

You are write, in part, when you wrote, "The USA happens to be the big dog. Lucky for the world, we also happen to have a great society that respects the rights of people." But you are also wrong. America does NOT have a great society where hunger increases proportionately with the escalation of golden parachutes for the effete, and where tax cuts for the rich are seeing an increasing number of people displaced from work and home. America is becoming a member of the Third World, where the rich get richer and the poor more poor.

The United States has NEVER had "a strong moral fiber that will ensure that justice will exist in the equation." If you think there is justice in America, then you better go to Texas--to Dallas, in fact, and see the machination of Judge Jack Hampton who says it is alright to kill people you don't like--from his judicial bench. Go to Jarvis, Texas and talk with the Blacks who are attacked in broad daylight while the police watch and smirk. Read the Dallas Morning News. I lived there.

Bush is not yet, "gassing racial groups in mass, or simply exterminating all that oppose." but then explain why Guantanamo, Cuba (our place) is little more than a concentration camp, with unclean and unsanitary facilities. Better read Amnesty International's world report. It is not pretty.

You are right, "The USA is the big gorilla," one more into jingoism and eager to suppress dissent by force. The paid mercaneries from the USA now kill, with W's blessing, civilians in Iraq on a daily basis--just as Israel kills Arabs--as the 12 murdered in cold blood yesterday--check out the news on Yahoo or MSN--for these are blatant attacks for murder and not for principle.

The USA has become the evil empire. It will get worse. Soon even your liberty will be forfeited if Bush and Co get their way.
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#86 Dr. Arthur Ide

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Posted 01 May 2003 - 10:36 AM

GORDILL, you speak like a member of the GOP in your attack on those who contribute to this forum by inanely writing, "I like to stop by these boards and listen to the socialists pissing and moaning." I write here, so I am the opposite of what you libel others when you write, "If they all got jobs and went to work, saved their money, they might amount to something some day." I work and I employ more than 100 people in any one of my corporations. Better check also on Bill Gates (Microsoft) and read why he oppose's W's tax cut for the wealthy and believes firmly in a death tax, as do I, and I am worth far more millions of dollars than you probably will earn, exposing the other lie that you wrote: "Instead they are waiting to divide up what the working people have produced."

See: http://slate.msn.com...7/entry/102449/
http://www.schoolofp.../WhoWillPay.htm

As for your absurd claim that those who contribute to this wonderful democratic and open forum, "Small wonder they don't have anything worth having." You error again. My house has more than $1 million in art work, including 3,000 year old Greek vases, etc. I have no debts, various vehicles of quality, a superior library--exceed $3m in value of over 45,000 volumes. But you see, I read, I think, therefore I contribute.

Get a life. Get facts. Bring your head out of the Bush.
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#87 Dr. Arthur Ide

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Posted 01 May 2003 - 10:39 AM

Excellent point, unbias, when you wrote, "All I said was: "Yes, everything is the fault of W Bush and his evil regime. (keep telling yourself that...) His next plot is to throw out the constitution and remain in office indefinitely."

To blame all the world's problems on this leader is ludicrous. Why not blame his father, and the yo-yo that preceeded him...? Or just wait a little longer because we'll be blaming him all the way until 2008."

I do blame George H. W. (father) Bush, and Ronald Reagan--the glib actor that put America in near bankruptcy 1982-1984--when most of my state of Iowa went broke and farmers were selling off their tractors, etc. For the sources, see my BUSH-QUAYLE: THE REAGAN LEGACY.
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#88 Auld Nick

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Posted 01 May 2003 - 11:13 AM

Some mistake here. I didn't say that. I was responding to it. I said:

For myself, I don't blame all the world's problems on Dubya. He is not bright enough to create them. What worries me is the way the US administration, most of it unelected, has hijacked the Pres. and is leading him carefully in the direction of a New World Order in which US-style democracy and "civilisation" will be mandatory. Our own prime minister, originally the leader of a democratic socialist party, is now far to the right of our conservative opposition, having bought the same arguments. Like many Europeans, I see an end to cultural diversity, and to the freedom to do anything but make money and spend it. Understand this, and you may understand why this forum gets so bitter occasionally.

For the record.
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#89 Dr. Arthur Ide

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Posted 01 May 2003 - 11:19 AM

Either I am blind, unbias, or I responded to a different post. I agree with your assessment that "Dubya. He is not bright enough to create them. What worries me is the way the US administration, most of it unelected, has hijacked the Pres. and is leading him carefully in the direction of a New World Order in which US-style democracy and "civilisation" will be mandatory. Our own prime minister, originally the leader of a democratic socialist party, is now far to the right of our conservative opposition, having bought the same arguments. Like many Europeans, I see an end to cultural diversity, and to the freedom to do anything but make money and spend it. Understand this, and you may understand why this forum gets so bitter occasionally."

I sincerely hope that Tony gets trounced in today's elections. He is far worse and more dangerous than Margaret Thatcher and her inglorious little war against Argentina over a sheep island. Tony, unlike W who is just stupid, is far quicker to end diversity--but like W should be tried in a world court for crimes against humanity. If convicted, he should be executed along with his partner in crime: W Bush.
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#90 Auld Nick

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Posted 01 May 2003 - 11:28 AM

I've just been watching this Gloucester White flying past the window....
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#91 donquijote

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Posted 01 May 2003 - 05:30 PM

Originally posted by the jack attack
Is that the best you could do, don? Animals... chosen people... That was lame.

Perhaps it's time to conclude this thread. The question was, "Can America be tamed?" The answer:

America is tame. A tame lion that has certain self interests that will be pursued. The lion will ignore the smaller and weaker self interested ranters, rightfully so. When the sh#t hits the fan, it really doesn't matter why the lion will choose to pounce... whether it be oil, power, ego, money, evil, whatever.

America will rise as a bright sun, creating a form of empire, until the natural cycle of power shifts. There is no sunset in the near future, but it seems the wolves will tempt their fate and confront the lion to their undoing. Even some rabbits will make their stand against the lion... lord only knows why... some higher ideals, they will claim. Those who support the lion will prosper with the lion. Those who oppose the lion will be eaten. Will you be sitting at the dinner table, or will you be the main course? End of story.



No it wasn't that lame. There's a contradiction: either we are the 'God chosen people' --in which case no matter how much we destroy everybody and everything the Lord is with us...-- or we are 'homo sapiens' --and we know we are part of a fragile web, which we got no right to destroy at will.

Your view of the lion, though, is consistent with the admiration of power, which can only bring us a catastrophe.

Check this out...

Source: book 'You Are Being Lied To'; article 'Will the Real Human Please Stand Up?' by Riane Eisler. Fragments.

Humanity at the Crossroads

Today the mix of the dominator model and advanced technology become increasingly unsustainable, the blade is the nuclear bomb and/or biological warfare and terrorism [written before Sept. 11th!]. Increasingly advanced technologies in the service of a dominator ethos threaten our natural habitat, as well as that of most species with whom we share our planet.

Regions ranging from the former Soviet Union to countries is Asia, Africa and Latin America are being forced into a replay of the robber-baron days of early capitalism.

In sum, the outcome of the tension between the partnership and dominator models as two basic human possibilities is far from settled. We are now at what scientists call a bifurcation point, where there are two very different scenarios for out future.

One is 'dominator system breakdown': the unsustainable future of high technology guided by the dominator model [the Lion]. This is where high technology in service of the domination of nature despoils and pollutes our natural habitat. It is a future where advanced technologies will be used not to free our human potentials, but to more effectively control and dominate. And ultimately, it is a future of environmental, nuclear, or biological holocaust.

The other scenario is 'breakthrough to partnership': the sustainable future of a world primarily orienting to the partnership model [for the benefit of all species]. Here advanced technologies are developed and used in ways that promote environmental balance and the realization of our species' great untapped potentials. International regulations ensure corporate accountability to workers, communities and natural habitats. [I'd add here the promotion of cooperatives as an option and counterbalance to corporations.] New economic institutions and rules recognize the value of the work of caring and caregiving, and discourage violence, exploitation, and the despoliation of nature.

"Nonviolence is the answer to the crucial political and moral question of our time; the need for man to overcome oppression and violence without resorting to oppression and violence" -M.L. King

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#92 donquijote

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Posted 01 May 2003 - 05:42 PM

Originally posted by Larani
Dear Dr. Arthur Ide,

You know when I look at all these posts I feel saddest when I read yours. For many of my fellow Brothers and Sisters I can understand thier positions just by taking in their level of education and the ability they have had to free information and education.

The fact is you blast the right and then the right blasts you and in the end balance and harmony within the American Democtratic System has been achieved.

What gets me is if you are the intellectual you claim yourself to be, I would think you would know and present that. It would not do the world any good if the Left were to take over any more then it would if the right took over.

Look at society the Left powers, ACLU, DSHS, ect and these are the services of socialist, The right powers Police, and the Military and these are the protecters of the left.



No, the 'democratic left' --if meaningful, unlike the Democratic Party-- can be quite good. If in doubt, check on the services and quality of life of Scandinavia, Western Europe or even your neighbor Canada...

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#93 donquijote

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Posted 01 May 2003 - 06:28 PM

Originally posted by the jack attack
The environmentalist pitch... wow... your sinking lower and lower don.

Add a new species to ANY environment... they will disrupt it in a variety of ways. Disruption of the environment is a natural as it gets.

All animals use resources and pollute in their own ways. Our pollution will kill some things and give rise to others.


Perhaps you are right about this point. New things will rise... RATS!

"Even if we found the way to feed ourselves, it would be impossible to ensure decent living condition to that multitude. To survive like rats is not what we would wish for our children and grandchildren"

-Jacques Cousteau, Rio, ECO'92
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#94 donquijote

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Posted 01 May 2003 - 06:42 PM

Originally posted by Larani
donquijote says
No, the 'democratic left' --if meaningful, unlike the Democratic Party-- can be quite good. If in doubt, check on the services and quality of life of Scandinavia, Western Europe or even your neighbor Canada...


Face it donquijote if the ( Hawks/Right ) in thge United States had not spent on the United States Military the way they did these socialist countries wouldn't even exists. Look at them they spend over 50% of their taxes just supporting thier government and their going broke trying to be involved in world affairs. If it wasn't for the Mighty US military being allied and protecting these countries these countries would be burdened with their own defense and their wonderful societies would have the cash to have their great societies. Face it the US held back Communisim and if it wasn't for the United States advanced technology and willingness to be hawkish, while so many governement in europe went dovish under the protection the US military umbrella your great society would exist.

Tony Blair is smart and he knows this and that's why he is not trying to alienate Europe from the US like the Germans and the French are. These Socialist Governements cannot afford the military expenditures without letting their own people and thier economies suffer.

The world is not a safe place nor will it be for a very very long time. Until all countries a representitive and respectful of human rights their will be terrorist who are brainwashed by these dictators willing to blow you up going to work in their attempt to bend the world to their needs not thier peoples.



So the quality of life of the American people is sacrificed in order that other nations can work on the betterment of their quality of life!?

Your assumption is flawed on several accounts:

- The former USSR fell from within as much as it fell from without. It had the same internal contradictions the US got: big expenditure in military and fancy projects, while the people suffer from basic needs.

- If these countries in the democratic left had been attacked, it would have sparked WWIII with or without the US, some of them --the UK and France--having nuclear weapons.

- It was the very existence of American Imperialism which gave the proper excuse to come up with Soviet Imperialism.

Opposite poles often attract each other...

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#95 the jack attack

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Posted 01 May 2003 - 07:05 PM

Rats get a very bad rap... undeservingly so. I saw a good show on discovery channel about rats a while back. They're amazing! I think some are smarter than most humans I listen to.

But, to get back into the spirit of the thread... there is one bad thing about them. They are too small!!! It takes too many of them to feed the lion from meal to meal. At least they seem to multiply at a fairly rapid pace... The lion will never go hungry! Hehe.
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#96 donquijote

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Posted 01 May 2003 - 07:22 PM

Originally posted by the jack attack
Rats get a very bad rap... undeservingly so. I saw a good show on discovery channel about rats a while back. They're amazing! I think some are smarter than most humans I listen to.

But, to get back into the spirit of the thread... there is one bad thing about them. They are too small!!! It takes too many of them to feed the lion from meal to meal. At least they seem to multiply at a fairly rapid pace... The lion will never go hungry! Hehe.



I know, rats will do good feed for the lion. Perhaps they should be fed the hormones our food is laced with...

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#97 donquijote

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Posted 01 May 2003 - 07:54 PM

"Living like rats" can also mean struggling or even killing each other over water. Pollution not only can cause a sudden catastrophe but also a slow death...

Fresh water: A scarce resource

Source: BBC

Scientists are meeting in Plymouth, UK, to work out how to preserve the world's fresh water supplies.

Water shortage has become a key environmental issue as we enter the 21st Century, with many commentators warning that the situation is likely to become so severe over the next few decades that it could trigger major civil unrest and even war.

The $6m Global International Waters Assessment (GIWA) project has been tasked by the United Nations to establish the extent of the problem.

It will then be down to world governments to agree measures to tackle the waste and pollution that threatens to deprive millions of people of the adequate supplies of clean water they need to drink and irrigate crops.

'Serious abuse'

"People have woken up to the fact that abuse of the environment is very serious," says Professor Laurence Mee of the Plymouth Environmental Research Centre, based at the University of Plymouth."

"A long-term legacy of abuse of global waters means that the biggest strategic issue this century is going to be the degradation of water, and without water all life on this planet would cease to exist."

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#98 donquijote

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Posted 01 May 2003 - 10:53 PM

Originally posted by Larani
Where is your faith in human invention?

Think of this what is the world population now. 27 billion hell who know its way up there.

I am 1/2 American Indian so I can say this.

Now consider we were still primitive say American Indian level technology Think anout just how much pollution there would be from are own crap. True diseases would be a lot worse and many more of us would die from those disease to balance it all out but come on.

3/4 of the Earth Surface is covered with water. We have the Technology to make it drinkable and usable it's just not neccessary enough to make it cost effective, but if their were no more sources oh you bet we would have Salination Plants all over the place.

Hell the Rich Arabs already do.



My faith in human invention is down there with the 800 million people going hungry at this very minute while grain is being fed to the cows, or simply dumped...

It's so much PREVENTION we can do, much simpler than treating water later on, no?

If anyone, the Indians had it right.

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#99 donquijote

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Posted 02 May 2003 - 12:02 AM

Originally posted by Larani
I said,
We are finally reaching a stage of development that we have the technology to see and stop such a global threat when it comes if we catch it in time.

Well at least the United States does anyway. Africa will just have to be glad the United States was there to do the job.
==============================================

Actually let me correct this the International Space Station is a joint effort and I wouldn't want to exlude those nations capable of helping in this endevour. I guess as an American I am suffering from defending the United States position as the World Super Power so much I forget to include those countries that are actually working with us for Global Safety vs Just being Anti-American everything.



I forgot to mention a couple of points:

First, the Indians had it right insofar as the learned to live WITH nature, not FROM nature. Also their gods were the nature itself, as opposed to a God who doesn't care --or doesn't seem to care--about the environment...

Secondly, it doesn't look to me so much a technological problem as a POLITICAL problem. We got the technology to feed the world, we just don't care...

Please look at this storty...

HOW THE LION BENEFITS FROM THE LITTLE ANIMALS' POVERTY

One day all the little animals went up to the King of the Jungle and complained about their poverty, and in particular about the fact that every time, during the dry season, they had to travel long distances to drink the precious fluid, and demanded a water well be built for them... They cited how the resources that they contributed to the kingdom were wasted in wars and fancy projects to the tastes of the King... He, however, replied with all kinds of excuses: the lack of resources, that it wasn't a matter of him not wanting it, but that it was a matter of priorities --which was one of his favorite words...

Meanwhile, an Owl --who had very good eyes-- had been observing life in the jungle, and thought this way: "Every time there's a dry season the little animals must come to the little dirty water hole where the Lion waits for them... Had they been well fed and strong, he would have had to run after them and even risk resistance..."

And that's how the Owl landed an important --and well paid-- post in the brand new Astronomy Department created by the King of the Jungle... to the effect of exploring life in other planets...

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#100 donquijote

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Posted 02 May 2003 - 12:05 AM

Originally posted by Larani
Sorry but those 800 million had better learn a thing or two about birth control before I subscibe to sending in foodstuffs.

I would rather spend 1.00 to by a fishing pole for 1 man so he could fish and feed himself and 4 others letting 5 die than to by a loaf of bread for a dollar that could feed 10.

Why becuase tommorrow those 10 mouths will be standing their waiting for another loaf, while in scenario 1 their will be 5 men taking care of themselves. and if they learn to control their population maybe just maybe in time they will have a surplus of fish they can sell vs consuming 100% of it.



Right, I don't subscribe to giving them the fish either, but to teach them 'how to fish'. The problem being nobody is teaching them that, nor it's even talked about.

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