Is Italy Balkan?
Posted 03 May 2003 - 07:28 PM
Pflantzer or better Pflanzer or Pflantzer or maybe sombody who teases? :confused:
In a way he was a planter. The way he plants was very unpopular in Triest region. Mostly he planted in Montenegro. And the Brits said he was a good Pflanzer.
Balkan: Austrian deffinition. Jenseits von Save und Seife.
On the soapless side of river Save.
Austrians are never arogant.
Gabriele D'Annunzio in Fiume, wasn't Fiume in Jugoslavia?
The question should be:
Is Italy the Balkan? or
Is the Balkan Italy?
Posted 03 May 2003 - 07:34 PM
Posted 03 May 2003 - 08:38 PM
Interpreting pacific and GiBis posts, don't you think Italy needs somebody to recultivate the structures. You would be my first choice.
SAXKIGOTHAKOBURGISTAN ehem I mean Bulgaria was not mentioned. Ruled by a sinister businessman. Where should we put Bulgaria to? H :confused:
Posted 03 May 2003 - 08:48 PM
There is most in common in the History of Italy with the History of the others Country of the Balkans.
Ottoman-Turkish and Osterreichiesses dominations, the wars against the Turkish and the wars of indipendences against the Ausburgs (the Central-Empire of Austria-Hungary), the request of indipendece of Hungary-Magjar against Austria-Osterriech.
I've looked, there is a lot in common in the History.
Venice-the Serenissima Republic-and Genoa, and others maritime republics of Italy have interest in the History of the Balkans.
The ancient Rome was in the Balkans, Italy and Romanie are neo-latin linguistic group.
There is a lot in common in the History and there is a common interest of development in the south of the Alpen-Carpathian moutain Arch.
I think it's not a peregrin idea to put the Italy inside the Balkan region, there is a lot in common.
It's a good provocation to know what the people think related to the question in an age of ethnical and political trouble.
sapless ( P ) Pronunciation Key (spls)
Devoid of sap; dry.
Lacking spirit or energy.
\Sap"less\, a. 1. Destitute of sap; not juicy.
2. Fig.: Dry; old; husky; withered; spiritless. ``A somewhat sapless womanhood.'' --Lowell.
Now sapless on the verge of death he stands. --Dryden.
adj 1: lacking physical strength or vitality; "a feeble old woman"; "her body looked sapless" [syn: decrepit, feeble, infirm, weak, weakly] 2: destitute of sap and other vital juices; dry; "the rats and roaches scurrying along the sapless planks"- Norman Mailer
Is Italy in the South of Sava river?
Posted 04 May 2003 - 08:15 AM
I'm going to leave Italy to Italians, just this time. Anyway, I have something to contribute to this debate - also historical, only it doesn't concern this recent history pacific is talking about.
Once upon a time, when Earth was still young (or at least 7 - 8 thousand years younger), there existed a civilization in the Balkans. Pretty famous Lithuanian historian cum ethnologist, Marija Gimbutas, calls this the "Old Europe". Its remains can be seen in archaeological sites such as Vinca, Starcevo, Lepenski Vir (all Serbia), Butmir, Obre (Bosnia), Vukovar (Croatia). There are a number of other sites in other countries. Actually, there wasn't much else in most of Europe in those times (neolithic). These "old Europeans" were free to use the river basins to expand to the sparsely populated areas in the north (central Europe), occasionally encountering a Paleolithic hunter-gatherer or two. There is even a theory that this area has been the first centre of the PIE language, from where it spread to the rest of Europe.
The most important other group neigbouring this ancient Europe had been the nomad peoples of north Pontic, so called kurgans, who are also credited (by the same Marija Gimbutas) for the spread of the Proto-Indoeuropean Language. Old Europeans initiated the contact with them very early, settling in some parts of modern Romania, Moldavia and Ukraine bordering these kurgan (mound) people. However, their relations turned violent. The first incursion of the Kurgan folk into Old Europe began in 4500. BC, and the largest one was, I believe, around 3500. BC. This time the invaders came to stay, and a large number of Old European sites were abandoned, some not settled again in some 500 years. This can be considered, more or less, the end of Old Europe. There is a story, an assumption actually, that some of Old European fled to Crete, and that the civilization of Crete is actually the continued civilization of Ancient Europe.
A much lesser known fact is that these people, the Old Europeans, had a pre-writing system, so called linear script. It is not yet sure that it actually was a fully developed script, but some linguists (as Georgian Gamkrelidze and Russian Ivanov) believe it was, which would make it the first script ever, predating even the Sumerian. Some have even noted similarities of these symbols engraved on the Old European vessels/pots and the Linear A from Crete.
Why am I telling you all of this on this topic, you might be wondering? Well, it might become a bit clearer if you go to this link and look at the areas/countries included in the zone of this Old Europe.
You notice that the region included is mainly the Balkans + southern Italy and Sicily. The ancient connection does exist.
Another note - southern Italy was also heavily settled by Greeks, and in Roman times this part of Italy, as our Italian friends will certainly confirm, was called "Magna Graecia". Most of these people were, with time, assimilated into modern Italians. In more recent times, 15. century or so, it was also settled by the Albanians, and I believe there are still some villages where the arbereshe dialect is spoken. They claim they had a significant involvement in the events of 1870 (Garibaldi).
In racial terms, the population of southern Italy is more or less identical to the population of Balkans, being composed of dinarics, dinaricized mediterraneans, the only significant difference being the presence of western mediterranean racial type. I believe the mentality is not that radically different from the mentality in the Balkans. Albanians are well known for their blood-for-blood vendetta, so are the Sicilians.
Anyway, we're not that far away, guys. And oh yes, as the crow flies, Sarajevo is closer to Rome than Milan or Turin, I believe. What it comes down to is that pacific's theory, although it is based on a different type of argumentation (geography) can be substantiated (to some extent) by history as well. The Balkans, Hungary and Italy (or some of its parts) were indeed once a part of a single cultural entity, and a great one at that.
Isn't history great?
Here are some links and quotes:
Old European / Vin?a
These symbols have been found on many of the artefacts excavated from sites in south-east Europe, in particular from Vin?a near Belgrade, but also in Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, eastern Hungary, Moldova, southern Ukraine and the former Yugoslavia. The artefacts date from between the 7th and 4th millennia BC and those decorated with these symbols are between 8,000 and 6,500 years old.
Some scholars believe that the Vin?a symbols represent the earliest form of writing ever found, predating ancient Egyptian and Sumerian writing by thousands of years. Since the inscriptions are all short and appear on objects found in burial sites, and the language represented is not known, it is highly unlikely they will ever be deciphered.
Symbols dating from the oldest period of Vin?a culture (6th-5th millennia BC)
"Old Europe" is Lithuanian-born Marija Gimbutas' name for the region of southeastern Europe shown on the map above. She argues that highly artistic, matrilinear, indigenous peoples lived here peacefully in Neolithic villages long before the often violent incursions of nomadic, patriarchal, Indo-European tribes from the eastern steppes. Finding her evidence in a meticulous study of Old Europe's unique pottery and sculpture, and combining the tools of archaeology, comparative mythology, linguistics, and folklore, Gimbutas developed a new interdisciplinary field: archaeomythology. Her theories have generated controversies as well as enormous excitement.
Posted 04 May 2003 - 08:27 AM
The Balkan Peninsula takes its name from Bulgaria's Balkan Mountains, running westward from the Black Sea. The peninsula as a whole possesses scattered fertile valleys separated by chains of rugged mountain ranges. Intense ethnic feelings come naturally to communities which are isolated from one another by these mountainous mazes. World War I started in this region; hatreds simmering in that war's aftermath led to World War II; on the eve of a new millenium, hatreds still boiling over from the 1940's are erupting anew in this region.
These are lands rich in ancient myth --- the harpist/mystic, Orpheus, came from the mountains of Bulgaria near the Black Sea. Dionysus was no stranger to these wildernesses. Marija Gimbutas' "Old Europe" encompasses this region -- and her discoveries point to a time when these lands knew peace and cooperation, when early non-Indo-European peoples worshipped life-loving deities who appreciated beauty, joy, and inspired a wide range of sacred arts. Long suppressed by later monotheisms, those ancient deities nevertheless are still wedded to the Balkan lands.
I created my MythingLinks website to focus on worldwide sacred lore and traditions. In some parts of the world, "sacred traditions" have deep, tormented roots in the distant past; when these explode violently in the immediate present and threaten to drag many peoples into ruin, it is crucial to examine both the ancient roots, their paths of transmission, and their contemporary manifestations. This is not to focus blame on the Balkans, nor to "demonize" the monotheistic and patriarchal Catholic, Orthodox, and Moslem traditions of the peoples now inhabiting that peninsula. It is, rather, to see the Balkans as a mirror of hatreds running rampant throughout the West, and to see where countries far distant from this small peninsula nevertheless bear much of the responsibility for exacerbating and manipulating old hatreds.
. In some parts of the world, "sacred traditions" have deep, tormented roots in the distant past; when these explode violently in the immediate present and threaten to drag many peoples into ruin, it is crucial to examine both the ancient roots, their paths of transmission, and their contemporary manifestations.
I just love this comment above. So true. As our Austrian friend Wolfgang Petritsch once said, the problem with the people of the Balkans is that they simply have (and generate) too much history. And then some idiot, or a couple of idiots, tries to get the geography to go with it. You know what I'm talking about. :mad:
Posted 04 May 2003 - 12:30 PM
many cross and many artlets and many trees in the write language
I II III III and many numbers and sun or moon symbols
Great links, a lot of thanks
They write like in the Donald Duck Comics of Walt Disnay or Dysnei
The common History and Civilization of southeastern Europe.
From the Danube and Adriatic to the northern and western Europe.
The falling of Rome and the Barbarians in South Eastern Europe.
Posted 04 May 2003 - 01:41 PM
in the meantime...you can go to this page...for more information about the script...
Flavin, Richard D. 1998. 'The Karanovo Zodiac and Old European Linear,' in the Epigraphic Society Occasional Papers, Vol. 23; pp. 86-92.
The Karanovo Zodiac and Old European Linear*
Richard D. Flavin
*An earlier version of this paper was published in the February 1994 issue of the Louisiana Mounds Society's Mounds Newsletter. The author wishes to thank Bill Rudersdorf for his editing, lay-out and encouragement with both versions.
Recent work comparing the Old European Linear script with Cretan Linear A  and the Classical Cypriote syllabary  suggests a writing tradition which continued from Neolithic Europe down to later eastern Mediterranean cultures. This approach challenges theories that "stimulus diffusion" from ancient Egypt, or elsewhere, gave rise to the linear scripts of Crete and, ultimately, Cyprus.  Perhaps someday we may better understand the origins for Cretan Linear A and the Classical Cypriote syllabary, but the problem of Old European Linear remains unaffected by these efforts. It has been shown that constellation or calendar symbols have often influenced the development of various scripts,  and with the identification of a sequential constellation map, or zodiac, from Karanovo, Bulgaria c. 4800 BC, it appears a similar relationship existed between calendar symbols and the Old European Linear script.
Posted 04 May 2003 - 02:57 PM
The simbolism is from the natural wildness world of the earth and from the skies.
The numeric series of signs is the most important if you want justify the meaning of the others signs and simbols.
The numbers are an abstraction, the first abstraction and the main.
The astronomy begins from the numbers and from the numbers (the first abstraction) begins the write language or visual language.
The number is always an abstraction a philosophic meaning which is not related to the wildness system and which catch meaning from the related wildness symbols.
The most interesting is this link
I II III IIII IIIII and a simbols which could be "many things or a crowd of enemies"; one single hand system of calculation over one hand they are many, a lot, a crowd. This is related to the crowd of the life of the humans groups. Few people, few numbers necessary.
Few animals necessary to survive, the deer (or similar) seems the most important.
From one to five are the only numbers, this means that from one to five is all the life and all the meaning of the life. Little groups of people. over five they are a crowd, a moltitude.
The etruscan signs are very near to the Vinca signs.
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