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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#201 MarquisDeSade

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Posted 07 July 2003 - 03:59 PM

I think enough for the jungle. the characteristic of the animals spell it all. what is important is the system. But, which are the animals that are going to lead it? how is it possible? there are still more to contemplate and ponder after so much discussion.

this is my ideal system: a swiss democracy, curitiba approach- to serve the PEOPLE that is, and lastly "natural capitalism" thinking society.

any better ideals?
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#202 donquijote

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Posted 07 July 2003 - 06:50 PM

<I think enough for the jungle. the characteristic of the animals spell it all. what is important is the system. But, which are the animals that are going to lead it? how is it possible? there are still more to contemplate and ponder after so much discussion.>

Hi Marquis

I think a lion is a lion whether he rules in a kingdom called communism or capitalism. So the first moral of the story is that we don't need any lion--or any other animals in upper food chain. And the second is that we don't need belligerant monkeys that once dressed as a lion will never take off the suit. It happened with Stalin, Castro and most others revolutionaries...

However they got a right to exist so long as they don't prey outside their jungle. They can show off in other areas where they don't threaten the whole world as it is the case now.

<this is my ideal system: a swiss democracy, curitiba approach- to serve the PEOPLE that is, and lastly "natural capitalism" thinking society. >

Exactly. A system that combines ideals--like the environment--and practical solutions--like those proposed in Natural Capitalism, one of which is Curitiba--laid out before the little people would be the best guarantee against any predators. One thing like the Swiss approach: Each commune has a different system, and people *vote with their feet*...

I've put out several flyers and the little people are responding overwhelmingly in favor. The hope lies with the proles, as Orwell would have said.

PS: Did you read Animal Farm? Did you finish Natural Capitalism?

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#203 Bader

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Posted 07 July 2003 - 11:28 PM

Howdy Marq and Donq,
are we now starting to agree the systems serve the people and not the reverse? Which means the state is not supreme.
For a while it seemed we were split into two opposing groups
over which served which.
Then the lion who has authority from the animal community
is accountable to the community in his discharge of his power
in service of the community. And can be recalled if not.
This is fundamental and without establishing which one of these
is the foundation of society we are not going to progress but
argue because they are opposites.
Once a society chooses this fundamental principle it has to be enshrined in their constitution so no government or power
broking group behind government can usurp power or pervert the systems against the common interest.
This is why the Lion rules whether it is communism or capitalism
as Donq said. Wall Street (New York) interests financed and staffed the Boshivist gov, invested in the Third Reich, set up the Cold War and now the fascist globalisation. There are other
centres of power.
The lion has corrupted finance, law, politics and media, just to
cover some of the critical pillars of society. Their control has to be
neutralised by decentralising them and making them all subject to
principles set in a constitution so the real decision making is done
by the people.
It then becomes the politicians job to ensure the public sector bureacrats produce the outcomes chosen by the people. Since the bureacrats are the
experts on how to do things, its up to them to devise the best
and most efficient way of producing those outcomes.
If bureacrats try to produce other outcomes or manipulate the
facts to persuade the politicians and the public what they want them to have they can be replaced since they violate the principle of service.
Same goes for the politician. If he/she doesn't keep the
bureacrats in service they are replacable and likewise if they or their party try to usurp the publics power of choice they are down the road as well.
there is a famous quote from old man Rothschild of the famous banking dynasty (who was the Vatican banker!) said that he couldn't care less who made the laws if he was permitted to control the creation of money. Today they are intertwined to protect one another. If you don't decode them, especially the financial side you will fight shadows, smoke and mirrors.
Most of the problems of the world most people are concerned about are the result of the debt money system but people go round in circles fighting the symptoms because they don't
perservere and get their heads around the myths and misleading
propoganda of the banks and economists.
The political system is the easiest to see through and decentralise power from the select few who have captured it.
The Swiss voting and political system offers the best at present,
the same has to happen within the money and legal systems
otherwise you are trying to run a car on one good tyre.
All the tyres are bad and need replacing.
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#204 The Beat

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Posted 07 July 2003 - 11:33 PM

Hey guys,

A word of caution from one who lived in Switzerland for four years. This referndum thing they do, which essentially means: vote every other weekend, really weighs heavy on many of the voters.

They get tired of constantly voting - at least my ex and her family and friends did. Look at the numbers. A typical vote will only attract 20 to 40% of the voters. the more obscure the referendum, the less likely the turnout - even though they vote on weekends.

That needs to improve, especially in the larger nations in Europe and the US. If only 20% of total voters cast their ballots, some strange sh** could happen - especially in the US.
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#205 donquijote

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 12:53 AM

<are we now starting to agree the systems serve the people and not the reverse? Which means the state is not supreme.
For a while it seemed we were split into two opposing groups
over which served which.>

Hi all

So far so good. Communism failed because it became a monster himself, and far from representing a real challenge to the old lion it created a simbiotic relationship, in which the only losers were the little people.

Now it's so simple either to say "four legs good, two legs bad" (or to say a mane is bad) but rather the pressing issues at hand: who's for world justice, who's for the environment, etc. At least it won't be like now: the bad--but rich--guys win...

<Then the lion who has authority from the animal community
is accountable to the community in his discharge of his power
in service of the community. And can be recalled if not.>

There's another balancing factor we can stimulate, one where the *worst* the system the better it is... the *cooperatives*. They can certainly be an escape for anyone who doesn't want to cooperate with the lion, however tamed he may be. In other words, such competition between capitalist, socialist and cooperative enterprises would encourage one of the most democratic voting methods know to man: vote with their feet!

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#206 The Beat

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 12:58 AM

THIS IS A GRAMMAR NOTE, NOTHING ELSE

Don't
Communism failed because it became a monster himself

Do
Communism failed because it became a monster itself

Agreement between the subject and its possessives
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#207 Bader

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 01:00 AM

strange sh.t is already happening.
Tally up the deaths from un-natural causes since the beginning of the last century through to the man-made deseases stalking
nations like the present one which can mutate and come back with another weapon when doctors think they have it covered.
Have you seen the biodiversity treaty that came out of the
1992 Earth Summit. It requires about 2/3 of the world population to take early retirement to another realm. You want to volunteer
The Beat?
Thats from the present common systems and so called experts who think they know whats best for people and the planet.
Referendum can have thresholds so if there isn't enough interest
across society it goes no where, stops a lot of time wasting.
How come you aren't concerned about the polies who put out laws without public support?
Binding refs. cut these down by public veto.
At the end of the day- what is the price of freedom. We can work an extra day to make ends meet and pay increasing taxes or
increasing inflation, but a time to consider and exercise the
responsibility of a democracy and the cost of holding the refs,
(is a small price to pay) is too much for many.
Look a the billions the U.N. pays for time and papertrails, all for what. In fifty odd years where so called experts make decisions for the good of humanity, all manipulated to conform to certain
international interests anyway.
Time to give it to the grassroots. Since in the main the public have been indoctrinated to advocate their responsibilities to others (small minorities) it will take some time and re-education.
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#208 donquijote

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 01:02 AM

<Don't
Communism failed because it became a monster himself

Do
Communism failed because it became a monster itself>

Note taken, but since I was talking about a monster...
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#209 The Beat

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 01:37 AM

Wait a sec, good buddy,

I never said referendums are bad. The overuse of same brings out a diminishing return of voters, allowing special interests to win victories when not enough voters turn out.

In Switzerland this is not a problem. All the Swiss I know have this inate sense of "what is right" for the country. It's incredible. Once, I was cussed out by Swiss-Germans (and I don't speak German) because I jay-walked! I flipped them off (they're not my parents anyway).

But the Swiss speak with one voice when it comes to Switzerland. The US speaks with about 100 million voices when it comes to the US. It just won't work. We're taught to be "independent" when it comes to control of livelihood. Referndums don't work.

We all agree with the notion that the US will continue. As what, who knows.
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#210 donquijote

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 01:43 AM

It seems the lion hates Animalism as much as he hates the environment!

It's so clear that Orwell did reject both Marxism (the pigs) and Capitalism (the farmer), that it hardly needs to be bothered about. Nevertheless we can learn from the enemy, I mean the lion...

One comment at the end...

ENVIRONMENTALISM is ANIMALISM is COMMUNISM

"Four legs good. Two legs bad." - Animal Farm

Animalism was the philosophy of the revolutionaries depicted in Orwell's "Animal Farm". Animalism has amazing similarities to present-day Environmentalism, which gains money and power by extolling the virtures of animals and nature over human-beings, and blames human activity for the world's evils. As was the case in "Animal Farm" the followers of this philosophy are merely dupes helping its proponents to tyrannical power.

The following excerpt is from ANIMAL FARM, Chapter One:

"Is it not crystal clear, then, comrades, that all the evils of this life of ours spring from the tyranny of human beings? Only get rid of Man, and the produce of our labour would be our own. Almost overnight we could become rich and free. What then must we do? Why, work night and day, body and soul, for the overthrow of the human race! That is my message to you, comrades. Rebellion! I do not know when that Rebellion will come, it might be in a week or in a hundred years, but I know, as surely as I see this straw beneath my feet, that sooner or later justice will be done. Fix your eyes on that, comrades, throughout the short remainder of your lives! And above all, pass on this message of mine to those who come after you, so that future generations shall carry on the struggle until it is victorious."

"And remember, comrades, your resolution must never falter. No argument must lead you astray. Never listen when they tell you that Man and the animals have a common interest, that the prosperity of the one is the prosperity of the others. It is all lies. Man serves the interests of no creature except himself. And among us animals let there be perfect unity, perfect comradeship in the struggle. All men are enemies. All animals are comrades."

At this moment there was a tremendous uproar. While Major was speaking four large rats had crept out of their holes and were sitting on their hindquarters, listening to him. The dogs had suddenly caught sight of them, and it was only by a swift dash for their holes that the rats saved their lives. Major raised his trotter for silence:

"Comrades," he said, "here is a point that must be settled. The wild creatures, such as rats and rabbits - are they our friends or our enemies? Let us put it to the vote. I propose this question to the meeting: Are rats comrades?"

The vote was taken at once, and it was agreed by an overwhelming majority that rats were comrades. There were only four dissentients, the three dogs and the cat, who was afterwards discovered to have voted on both sides. Major continued:

"I have little more to say. I merely repeat, remember always your duty of enimity towards Man and all his ways. Whatever goes upon two legs is the enemy. Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend. And remember also that in fighting against Man, we must not come to resemble him. Even when you have conquered him, do not adopt his vices. No animal must ever live in a house, or sleep in a bed, or wear clothes, or drink alcohol, or smoke tobacco, or touch money, or engage in trade. All the habits of Man are evil. And above all, no animal must ever tyrannise over his own kind. Weak or strong, clever or simple, we are all brothers. No animal must ever kill any other animal. All animals are equal."...

THE END

And why is it that you lions put human beings below the greedy system and even God, who you haven't even seen?

Yoy feed better the pigs than the children...

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#211 The Beat

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 01:56 AM

The Animal Farm continueth
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#212 donquijote

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 02:03 AM

<Time to give it to the grassroots. Since in the main the public have been indoctrinated to advocate their responsibilities to others (small minorities) it will take some time and re-education.>

Again the coops--because of the fact they are smaller and don't have a lion--could be the best way to direct democracy. Yet they are far from perfect and there are different types of coops (kibbutz, Danish coops...)

What can we learn from the following problems? Will the abscense of a lion make it attractive enough for the masses of workers?

Problems with democracy at Mondragon

Kasmir (1996) notes some problems with democracy at Mondragon, that should be considered seriously.

Theoretically, blue collar workers have much more power in a Mondragon cooperative. For instance, the Social Council can convoke the General Assembly, where the majority decides according to the princple: one worker, one vote. Because most cooperators are blue collar workers, they should have definite power in a cooperative.

But reality learns otherwise. The cooperators, when confronted with new plans from the management, are supposed to formulate alternatives. However, they lack both time and expertise. The representatives in the social council have only three-quarters of an hour each month to report to the workers what was said at the Council , and they have to do so in the factory, amidst the noice of machines. Whereas management is paid to develop plans, members of the social council have but a couple of hours to work on possible alternatives. Moreover, they are have no access to independent expertise. They cannot ask a lawyer or engineer or economist for help.

Full Text...

http://www.ping.be/j...ndemocracy.html
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#213 donquijote

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 02:05 AM

<Promises Promises!>

How about this, neither farmers nor pigs?
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#214 The Beat

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 02:06 AM

Just pig farmers
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#215 Buttersideup

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 02:09 AM

Are animals guilty of bestiality?
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#216 The Beat

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 02:24 AM

Only the most bestial of them.

the others are just, inhuman
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#217 MarquisDeSade

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 03:11 AM

"I've put out several flyers and the little people are responding overwhelmingly in favor. The hope lies with the proles, as Orwell would have said."

Hi don, you sound like you are the lion. arent you contradicting yourself by asserting for a system without the lion.

have not read the animal farm, will read it. about to finish reading natural capitalism.

there are still problems for the mondragon coop, which is why didnt include it into my ideal system. i believe the curitiba approach would overcome it.

cheers
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#218 MarquisDeSade

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 03:20 AM

"are we now starting to agree the systems serve the people and not the reverse? Which means the state is not supreme.
For a while it seemed we were split into two opposing groups
over which served which."

Hi bader, if you have read the earlier posts by me, you should have know my stance, but i guess not.

i doubt any real progress can be made.

cheers
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#219 Bader

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 05:42 AM

You said that you didn't say referenda (um) are bad, but then
further on you said they don't work. Not much choice here really,
The Beat.
Joking aside, you were rather negative, but since you qualifies it
in relation to the U.S. it clarifies what you were saying.
The point I was trying to make is that if only twenty percent respond (vote) there shouldn't be a result so a fringe element
don't get away with something they shouldn't.
For example, although not a case of referenda, the act that
sanctioned the formation of the Federal Reserve (a private
banking monopoly, not a state institution) was passed on Christmas eve in 1913 after most of the represenatatives had left
to return home for xmas. The handfull who waited knew what they were doing. Today the U.S. citizens, men women and children have a huge debt over their life-span because they are
now trillions of dollars in debt. Today young men (GIs) are dying around the globe for corporate and international interests, because the borrower is the servant of the lender.
Nations can adapt the principles of refernda to suit themselves.
I understood that referenda was operating in a number of U.S. states. It should work better at state level which I believe is the
level ths constitution intended the citizens to be governed at.
That the Federal dimension was only to facilitate the common
needs of the state collectively and not for the Fed to dictate to the states.
A good question though The Beat about the future of the States.
Baring in mind the people it should have a continuing great and long future. Given the corruption and the international rogues
nesting in the exclusive creations of power the future looks dim
and short. But that won't make Russia number one, in fact both seem to be plagues by similar people.
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#220 Bader

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 06:27 AM

It gets a bit mindboggling after a while trying to remember
who is where-on what, with the focus changing as well as the
perspectives.
Someone else suggested there was a split previous and there
are some expressions that still need clarifying.
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