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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#2181 donquijote

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Posted 20 March 2004 - 02:59 PM

<donquichote; I already agreed with Bader, that idea of destruction , althought is very attractive is not perfect solution. As a lover of relic and artifacts, I even say, it is very bad thing.>

It's the lion who creates such a danger of destruction, whether because of war or environmental damage. He's just a stupid hungry lion. He's Satan the Lion. But we are the forces of construction, the LION SLAYERS if you will.

<But would be possible Great revolution without attack on Winter Palace?>

I believe so. Communism fell from within and the jungle will fall from within as well. The lie is not sustainable anymore. Not even children would believe the excuses given by the lion to use force. And WE GOT TO REACH CHILDREN WITH THESE STORIES. I've tried but when it got too much interestest from the little ones, I was censored...;)

< On the other hand, let me ask one thing; are you supporter of Bush small nuclear bombs killing only people and infrastructure leaving intact, Iraqi people dead but oil pipes in perfect shape? >

No, Iraqui people must be saying at this point: "Another lion!?" They got rid of one and now got another. They don't need no lion either.

For any positive change to occur in Iraq though, we in the West must become more thrifty in our oil consumption. Bush is just acting as the agent to those vast reserves.:confused:

This could be a good approach (I call it the "don't feed the lion" approcah)...

http://webspawner.co...rs/bikeforpeace
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#2182 donquijote

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Posted 20 March 2004 - 06:27 PM

Sorry to say, but such seems to be the case...

Excerpted from The Science of Good and Evil : Why People Cheat, Share, Gossip, and Follow the Golden Rule by Michael Shermer. Copyright L 2004. Reprinted by permission. All rights reserved.
From The Science of Good and Evil:
Examples of pre-moral sentiments among animals abound. Vampire bats share food and follow the principal of reciprocity. They go out at night in hoards seeking large sleeping mammals from which they can suck blood. Not all are successful, yet all need to eat regularly because of their excessively high metabolism. On average, older experienced bats fail one night in ten, younger inexperienced bats fail one night in three. Their solution is that successful hunters regurgitate blood and share it with their less fortunate comrades, fully expecting reciprocity the next time they come home sans bacon. Of course, the bats are not aware they are being cooperative in any conscious sense. All animals, including human animals, are just trying to survive, and it turns out that cooperation is a good strategy.

http://www.amazon.co...ooks&vi=reviews

Well this got to be an important book judging by the subject. I heard him on TV and I noticed some flaws though:

-Firstly, the study of the Human Being is better understood in light of the power relationships. What does the war in Iraq tells us of the nature of the *American people*, other that they are being manipulated? Wouldn't the approach of *getting rid of the lion* allow us to become the real human beings, searching for happiness, cooperation, community, etc?

-Secondly, he sees humankind getting progressively better when evidence show us that we are at the end of the rope, both environmentally and through warfare and/or terrorism. We are still living in the jungle.:confused: Perhaps we are getting worse: WWI was the last "gentlemen's war." Prisoners were treated respectfully; now they are shown unshaven and sick before a world television audience.
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#2183 donquijote

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Posted 20 March 2004 - 07:54 PM

This is not very much unlike what I do. Just that I use some stories to deliver the message of the jungle (the problem) and of paradise (the solution), being as specific as I can as beautiful words/causes have gone wrong before...

<<<Our modern world reminds us daily - and incorrectly - how "separate" we all are. From politics to religion to sports and even entertainment, we're told it's "us against them." Powerful leaders promote this concept, allowing them to keep control of their people through monotheism, nationalism, racism, sexism, homophobia and oil other kinds of scapegoating rhetoric. Examine closely the true motives of anyone who tries to tell you it's "us against them," because the truth is that there is no "them." There never was and never will be. There is only "US,">>>

http://keywestcafe.net/onehumanfamily/
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#2184 donquijote

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Posted 20 March 2004 - 08:15 PM

hey I'm catching up for time lost.

...the little people look indifferently while big money changes hands. Not vey much unlike this story...

HOW POLITICS WORKS

(This little, tiny story is part of a series, in which I explain to my little daughter how things work.)

Politics works like this: Big People of Big Country buy Big People of Little Country, who, by the way, will be elected in "democratic elections" thanks to big bucks; Big People of Big Country give big loans to Little Country (of course, to buy "made in Big Country"); Big People of Little Country pocket a big chunk and invest it in the Big Country, without ever investing in real development (education, health, the environment, etc); Little People of Little Country work for ever to pay back what they never got; Big People of Little Country thank Big People of Big Country in the name of Little Country, and promise to repay the big debt; and Little People of Little Country get big promises, just like Little People of Big Country. And they lived happily ever after...

New book examines problems in politics, campaign finance
Oct. 17, 2002

KALAMAZOO -- What happens when you mix an increasing proportion of voter apathy, the continuing influence of special interest groups and the deep pockets of wealthy campaign contributors?

The result is a misshapen political landscape where decisions are driven more by who benefits along the way rather than by the purpose of the legislation, says a Western Michigan University professor in his newest book. Dr. Peter Kobrak is the author of "Cozy Politics: Political Parties, Campaign Finance and Compromised Governance," which was recently published by Lynne Rienner Publishers Inc. of Boulder, Colo., and London.

"The use of 'pork,' or small appropriations passed by a legislature to increase the chance of a lawmaker's re-election, goes back to the building of lighthouses after the Revolutionary War," says Kobrak, who acknowledges that the problem is not a new one. "But that is different from cozy politics where far more money changes hands and where wealthy individuals, interest groups and professional associations achieve access and often beneficial treatment in exchange for political contributions."

The stakes are higher than ever for political action committees, unions, corporations and other groups vying for the attention of the president and Congress.

Kobrak, a professor of public administration and political science, examines numerous facts and figures that illustrate his point. For example, presidential and congressional campaign contributions topped $2 billion for the first time in 1992, and four years later, that number ballooned to $2.7 billion. Only two decades ago, says the author, similar contributions totaled less than one-fourth of that amount.

"Today," he says, "during every week of a six-year term, the average senator must raise $10,000 for re-election campaign expenses."

The money has to come from somewhere, and as candidates must seek more cash to get their point across, they often draw large donations from those who expect something in return.

At the same time, voters witness the uncomfortably close relationship between politicians and their financial backers and are turned off. As a result, they become less politically involved and vote in ever smaller numbers, says Kobrak.

"Cozy politics contributes to the increasing erosion of civic confidence and citizen participation, the warping of political parties, the denigration of politicians and the compromise of federal administrative agencies," the author says.

http://www.wmich.edu...0/0203-099.html
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#2185 donquijote

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Posted 20 March 2004 - 08:23 PM

<Joining the EU would definitely be a major plus for Russia. Once again, without some major reforms in the Banking and Financial sectors, I don't really see an invitation being extended. Do you? Its unfortunate because this puts Russia in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't situation." If they make too many reforms, they'll anger some countrymen and businessmen; if they don't no invitation. President Putin's recent shakeups in the cabinet and government have also raised many eyebrows around the world. As a student of history, this time reminds me of Russia during the early part of Peter the Great's reign. A slightly down time with an amazing breakthrough about to come. Quite exciting. >

Sorry for the delay...;)

Perhaps Europe hasn't made any invitations because that would make the big lion very nervous. You know how these power struggles work in the jungle. That pack of lions can represent a threat to this pack of lions, or what's the words for "packs"? Oh I think is "pride"...;)
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#2186 donquijote

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Posted 20 March 2004 - 08:26 PM

<Of course they should. Germany participated, in Germany, during WWII. I remember the picture of Hitler's unhappy face when the African-Americans beat his Aryan sons for the gold medals.>

You sound very convincing in your analogy...;) But look at the consequences of ignoring the lion...:confused:

Which raises the question, at what point should Hitler had been stopped?
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#2187 donquijote

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Posted 20 March 2004 - 08:37 PM

<Woj,

As an American, I must say that religion plays a massive role in American politics. Most Americans don't like to admit it, as the image and notion of a "separation between church and state" sounds good and seems attractive. Unfortunately, that is not the case. American political parties and politicians, mainly the Republicans, count on and cower to the "religious right." Lets remember that our "esteemed" leader, Bush, thinks that God spoke to him and told him to run and he also doesn't believe in evolution. Religion is great for some people, but I think it should be kept out of political decisions.

Mike>

Howdy Mike
It's so important what you say. Actually it's the best step toward peace...

Part I

Here's one strategy...

-Seek world justice* (see Epicurus' opinion at the end).

-Play down religion and nationalism (say the politicians abstaining from mixing politics and religion).

-Save oil.

-Educate, educate, educate.

I doubt there would be much terrorism left after these steps are
taken.

Part II

I'm at the same time pessimistic and optimist...

The pessimism is that destruction may happen any time...

The optimism is that a solution is really around the corner and it may
come as either the enlightenment of our leaders (not all must be
stupid, or sold out, are they?) or as a campaign of nonviolence.

Say, if we had an enlightened leader, he may think like this...

(Source: World Press Review, letters)

Yes, we need to fight a war, but no, the enemy is not Iraq... The
enemy is oil with 65+ percent of the known oil reserves in the
politically unstable, "Death to America"-chanting Middel East. Imagine
the advances the United States could make to world stability and
developing domestic employment opportunities if it spent the $79+
billion Congress recently approved for Bush's Iraq war on alternative
energy subsidies and investment. Might this be a better way to fight
terrorism, support our troops, and regain world favor?

Jay Lustgarten
San Anselmo, California

more...

http://webspawner.co...rs/donquijote17
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#2188 donquijote

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Posted 20 March 2004 - 09:33 PM

It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either.
-- Mark Twain
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#2189 Bader

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Posted 20 March 2004 - 10:06 PM

The world was a paradize and socially still could be in terms of social justice/economically but the means will remain in dispute
even if there was no lion.
Basically there are two approaches:
the state or
free enterprize
Both need money to function and few people have any understanding of money so who controls the money still controls
society all we would do is assist the metamorphesis of the same beast.
The first step in a problem solving exercise is to correctly
dentify the problem. It is so common to see people regergitate what the education system, the political system and the mass media systems (all lie-on based) have feed the populas for so long.
Look how popular globalistic thinking is, anti-nationalism, anti-religion, what people are begging fore in the main is benign
dictatorship with no right and no wrong, everyone re-educated who has specific views, -MOa China/UN/US policy.
We can cut it all short and just say WE SURRENDER without
discovering we have already been captured.

Chiang Kai Chek sold out: to who?
Did he give away the mainland to Mao for 10 million dollars?
He was sold out by the "US" just as they sold out Eastern Europe
to Stalin. The story line, repeated over and over about corruption
in Nationalist China (its a natural part of the whole world of politics) just like how bad Hussein was and justifies greater crimes
and mass destruction of civilians in potilical upheavals and yet we still, thanks to the systems, think we are getting better.

Good to see protests all over the world, better late than never,
should have happened a year ago and nothing will change.
The prize is obtained, is the goal, not the hiding of the methods
to gain the prize. They cant hide everything, and so what, the public respond so late they get what they want anyway and tomorrow will have its own events that will soon leave the other behind. No protest in the UN because the govts will not represent the people. There is no democracy and the UN supercedes it. Most protesters will agree the UN should take over. Who is the most powerful influence in the UN (Permanent Security Council) where the decisions are made? Who holds power over them? Those who are gaining from Iarqi invasion.
The protest is against shadows. They demand peace which equates with order which equates with benign dictatorship
(which will evolve into tyrany) because they dont want justice.
No peace without justice. But they dont want justice, that means democracy- to control the polticians and corruption and fight money power. Thats too much, they might loose jobs etc, na we just want peace. /order, we're scared.
The NWO- world govt will bring peace all right, no protest no resistence.

Yeah theres no "them", no lie-on, just us, even Bush is "us", just captured and divided on animal farm and so its inevitable we must be getting better.

Prof Kobrak: money has been ruling for a long time, but the US
as everywhere else will choose between two prostitutes this election and not protest, only about the war. There's the seeds of progress right there.
Ever changing always, the same.
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#2190 donquijote

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Posted 20 March 2004 - 10:26 PM

<The world was a paradize and socially still could be in terms of social justice/economically but the means will remain in dispute
even if there was no lion.
Basically there are two approaches:
the state or
free enterprize
Both need money to function and few people have any understanding of money so who controls the money still controls
society all we would do is assist the metamorphesis of the same beast.
The first step in a problem solving exercise is to correctly
dentify the problem. It is so common to see people regergitate what the education system, the political system and the mass media systems (all lie-on based) have feed the populas for so long.>

Howdy Bader
Good talking to you again.
The solution doesn't have to be an "if or solution," but the offering of options. In other words, "both competition and cooperation" are right. Likewise we can't impose a view of the world on Islam--nor they can on us. Live and let live, religiously, politically, economically, culturally... Perhaps we can all agree on the concept of the lion, but it would be up to each human tribe/nation to deal with it. Do you want a Hussein or Castro, even when he's bad to you? Chances are people are not masochistic though.
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#2191 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 12:00 AM

Donquichote ; *******President Putin's recent shakeups in the cabinet and government have also raised many eyebrows around the world.*********

Ha, ha ha; Putin is elected president of Russian people not to make happy Western banks. It was role of Jeltsin , who though ordered to storm Russian parlament, he was never criticized by Western **democracy***. Btw bill to deprive Boris Yeltsin immunity on March 17 was only 69 to 72. Next time might pass. ha, ha ha. ;)
When Putin will help to eliminate the tragedy of Serbs in Kosovo, everybody will love him. Opinions of foreigners about Russia ompletely are unimportant for any Slav.

*****Which raises the question, at what point should Hitler had been stopped?******

Hitler should be stopped before Anschluss of Austria, but Churchill hoped for Hitler
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#2192 donquijote

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 12:22 AM

<Hitler should be stopped before Anschluss of Austria, but Churchill hoped for Hitler-s attack on Russia, so didn-t help than or after attack on Czechoslovakia or Poland. :D Generally Hitler played, positive role in the world because in result of second war Poland received back Silesia and countries like China, Burma , Laos, India Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, Palestine, Nigeria won at that time their freedom. It is true; many people died during WWII, but millions became free from British colonization. ;) Unfortunately UK has still problem with separation from Iraq, Jordan and Kuwait, but it is some hope, that after present war in Iraq, UK will lose Scotia. >

Yeah, but even so the balance was mostly negative: the USA bacame #1 and the former USSR #2, and Jews became the martyrs. We still suffer the consequences...:confused:
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#2193 Pliny

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 12:32 AM

>>>In other words, "both competition and cooperation" are right. <<<

Correct - In the absence of government. An interesting book by Murray Rothbard called "Man, Economy and State" outlines the fact that Government's role is that of protector of the citizenry and nation and is the only organization that is legitimately sanctioned by the citizenry to be able to use force in this mandate. It is only a matter of time that it accrues enough power to force it's will on the people. Mainly because it creates "free" services that some enjoy but others pay for. Needless to say the demand for it's services is never satiated and their solution is to coercively increase taxation. Government is the only organization that does not have to compete nor cooperate.

You also say, Education is important. I basically agree it is very important. But I do not call today's system of instruction an education. So how should education be approached? Knowing that a public or government education will result in a well-behaved citizen per it's requirements and for it's continued legitimacy, it cannot be supported, except perhaps at an elementary level but even then I would urge caution and never make it a monopolistic venture.
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#2194 Pliny

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 12:38 AM

Putin is making western banks happy, don't worry.

Didn't he just give your largest oil corporation to the Rothschild's?
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#2195 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 01:05 AM

Pliny;
*****Didn't he just give your largest oil corporation to the Rothschild's?***
I am Polish and don
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#2196 donquijote

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 01:33 AM

Here are some insights from America's most revolutionary writer. No wonder nobody hears his words around...;)

"Who are the oppressors? The few: the king [of the jungle:)], the capitalist and a handful of other overseers and superintendents. Who are the oppressed? The many: the nations of the earth; the valuable personages; the workers; they that make the bread that the soft-handed and idle eat."

Mark Twain and Social Justice

THE TWAIN THAT MOST AMERICANS NEVER MEET
by Norman Solomon
With the start of 2000 less than two months away, I've been thinking about a beloved American writer who stuck his neck out the last time people went through a change of centuries.
We revere Mark Twain as a superb storyteller who generates waves of laughter with powerful undertows of biting satire. One generation after another has grown up with the adventures of Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn. Some of Twain's essays were less palatable; his most scathing words about organized religion seemed so blasphemous that they remained unpublished for half a century after he died in 1910.

The renowned author's fiery political statements are a very different matter. They reached many people in his lifetime -- but not in ours.

Today, few Americans are aware of Twain's outspoken views on social justice and foreign policy. As his fame grew, so did his willingness to challenge the high and mighty.

Samuel Clemens adopted the pseudonym "Mark Twain" in 1863, when he launched his writing career as a newspaper reporter in the wild Nevada territory. During the next five decades, many of his most incendiary paragraphs first appeared in newsprint.

Twain was painfully aware of people's inclinations to go along with prevailing evils. When slavery was lawful, he recalled, abolitionists were "despised and ostracized, and insulted" -- by "patriots."

As far as Twain was concerned, "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul." With chiseled precision, he wielded language as a hard-edged tool. "The difference between the right word and the almost right word," he once commented, "is the difference between lightning and the lightning bug."

Here are a few volts of Twain's lightning that you probably never saw before:

* "Who are the oppressors? The few: the king, the capitalist and a handful of other overseers and superintendents. Who are the oppressed? The many: the nations of the earth; the valuable personages; the workers; they that make the bread that the soft-handed and idle eat."

* "Why is it right that there is not a fairer division of the spoil all around? Because laws and constitutions have ordered otherwise. Then it follows that laws and constitutions should change around and say there shall be a more nearly equal division."

* "I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land."

At the turn of the century, as the Philippines came under the wing of the U.S. government, Mark Twain suggested a new flag for the Philippine province -- "just our usual flag, with the white stripes painted black and the stars replaced by the skull and cross-bones."

While the United States followed up on its victory in the Spanish-American War by slaughtering thousands of Filipino people, Twain spoke at anti-war rallies. He also flooded newspapers with letters and wrote brilliant, unrelenting articles.

On Dec. 30, 1900, the New York Herald published Mark Twain's commentary -- "A Greeting from the 19th Century to the 20th Century" -- denouncing the blood-drenched colonial forays of England, France, Germany, Russia and the United States. "I bring you the stately matron named Christendom, returning bedraggled, besmirched and dishonored from pirate-raids in Kiao-Chou, Manchuria, South Africa and the Philippines, with her soul full of meanness, her pocket full of boodle and her mouth full of pious hypocrisies. Give her the soap and a towel, but hide the looking-glass."

Twain followed up in early 1901 with an eloquent essay titled "To the Person Sitting in Darkness." Each of the world's strongest nations, he wrote, was proceeding "with its banner of the Prince of Peace in one hand and its loot-basket and its butcher-knife in the other." Many readers and some newspapers praised Twain's polemic. But his essay angered others, including the American Missionary Board and The New York Times.

"Particularly in his later years," scholar Tom Quirk has noted, "the fierceness of Twain's anti-imperialist convictions disturbed and dismayed those who regarded him as the archetypal American citizen who had somehow turned upon Americanism itself."

We can imagine what Mark Twain would have to say these days. But policymakers in Washington can rest easy. Twain's most inflammatory writings are smoldering in his grave -- while few opportunities exist for the general public to hear similar views expounded today.

Perhaps time has verified Mark Twain's caustic remark: "None but the dead are permitted to speak truth."

Even then, evidently, their voices tend to be muffled.

http://www.progress.org/sol23.htm
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#2197 Bader

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 02:38 AM

If Churchill (the Churchills are zionists) wanted the Third Reich to go to war with the Soviets, he would have accepted Hess's attempt to do just that. Churchill was put in power to decalre war inspite of the fact neither he or the french were capable or doing so.
The real Hess who was taken into custody before he could talk to those he hoped to after his flight to Scotland has never seen the light of day. The one kept in Spandau by he Soviets until he died was a stand-in.
The world has never been allowed to know the truth about the Second World War. Information is still coming out and there are alot of skellitons in the cupboard yet as we meantioned recently.
Africa has been liberated to what?
Bush thinks he liberated Iraq.
How liberated was Poland after WW2? They now want to be liberated by becoming swallowed up by another block of nations
that strip Poland of its sovereignty. This would still be way in the future if Wall St hadnt of built up the Nazi war machine and help promote Hitler. THats is progress but not for humanity.
The powers that be who are still using the British and the US are
still liberating the world from independance and who knows maybe elected govt by the people.
Empires within the great empire of old may change by the
Babylonian empire of the Lion still stands firm.

"Govt is the only organisation that does not have to compete or cooperate":
The so called free-market model has been impossed on govts
around the world which incorporates the principle of competition,
which is really phoney but then capitalism isnt truely freely
competitive, some have even devised a name to describe our post monopolistic capitalist world.
Govts do cooperate, particularly with the multi-nationals and in fact will adopt economic policy that favours the corporates ahead of the citizens even to the point of subsidizing the corporates.
One could say that the international bankers have inpossed the
capture of govt by the corporate world on their behalf.
There is no voting or democracy in the corporate world, likewise the bureacracy of socialist/communist states isnt intended to be democratic either. In this there is no difference for the majority of the citizens regards freedom.
There are huge restraints on peoples freedom, health, propects
via the financial and economic fronts, just more subtle than the
the decrees of a state dictatorship.

Artifacts and historic treasures.
You arent the only one who likes them Woj. It is alleged that when the Nazi moved into Austria the Roman Centurian spear
supposedly used to spear Jesus in the crucifixion was seized by Hitler from Vienna. Later someone in the US seized it on the fall of the Third Reich. Its about the pursuit of powers.
Some have claimed Hussein was 33 degree Mason - among the elite. Do they eg Hussein and Hess understand their expendability should the game twist or turn against them?
Do Bush and Kerry see themselves as two centurians in the arena seeking to influence the big thumb of the Man who watches from the seat of power?
THis was one of the reasons the knights Templars the forerunners of the Masons used the crusades into the Holyland.
Same would apply for the plundering of the Bagdag museum. This is the Babylon factor that Hess, Hitler, Bushs and Kerry all
understand, the factor behind the developments from Frankfurt
and the rise of the jesuits and the Black Pope the power behind the papal throne. Caesars, Shars, Czars, there are others of the same moud and the US President has become virtually the same, mirror images within mirrors images all the way back into ancient history.
Ever changing always the same.
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#2198 donquijote

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 03:01 AM

<<The simple fact of not having a power structure--such as a coop--could make life so easy on the little animals... >>

Donq in Biscay hotel ; Did you change your job, I thought that you told us that you math teacher and you teach children two plus two-.

I was a teacher *a long time ago* and now try to do something here and there without getting too tied up.

<Your favorite Swiss coops prospect very well on laundry money so it is not sophisticating example. They might get burn. You see, revenge is gods's pleasure. >

True, but it can claimed that's the other nations fault that they allow their money be invested in Switzerland. The same can be claimed about the US, but it's obvious this country uses corruption to gain influence.

Yet Switzerland has chosen to create a real democracy and chosen to remain neutral. Something America--and the world--can benefit from. Besides other models are provided, notably the Mondragon coops, which started from scratch.

<As long any little animal has chance to be a lions, why shouldn-t resign from this life opportunity?
And it is also good message to the lions; tomorrow or after, you will be the little animals. So Donq, never give up your life opportunity, you might loose your life excitement. >

Unlike Marx I see the proletarian as both good and evil. I have posted in this thread a criticism of Marx theory under the light of Orwell's animalism, which shows--perfectly in "Animal Farm"--how the little pigs get corrupted once in power. The concept of a lion, present or future, would prevent the pigs from ever turning too big. We got to keep 'em in check.;)
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#2199 donquijote

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 03:49 AM

This is an activist who proposes the same thing I propose. The mere threat of competition will make the lion offer concessions. In other words, COMPETITION CAN TAME THE LION, without a need for confrontation and can result in direct benefit of those choosing not to cooperate as well those who want to join a coop. He proposes to create such coops in the medium term as a mean to get there; I propose though to gain political power in the short term to effect such taming in a much shorter period of time. How otherwise can you establish the necessary logistics and education that go with it?

<<<I see it this way:

Stage I: I see corrupt individuals and businesses

Stage II: I see Corporate Power as a problem
that must be fixed, and unless it's fixed,
we'll never fully address I.

Stage III: I see "the system" (or "Capitalism" or "Corporate
Capitalism") as the problem that must be fixed, and unless it's fixed,
we'll never fully address II.

Stage IV: Ok, I know what we're against, now what are we FOR?
"Participatory Economics" and various good Libertarian Socialist /
Anarchist writings have tried to address this.

Stave V -- where I see not enough of -- is a real
pragmatic-idealistic "how do we get from here to there". And we need
to aim to get there in, say, 10 years. We may not, but if we don't aim
for that, we'll fail; we shouldn't "aim for" 100 years from now...

(snip)

Certainly I agree we don't want a "Vanguardist approach" We also need
to "make it happen" for everyone. I would suggest at least three types
of reasons as to why: first, they deserve it as much as we do; second,
our own ability to have it for ourselves is at risk if the majority
continue to slave under the current system; and thirdly, not to be
overly ominous sounding, but the future of the earth increasingly
depends on the human race attaining a saner economic system.

(snip)

The way we will Win is when they start to make concession in that
direction when there is a Credible Threat of worker-run collectives [the water well]
across the country (and world) who to a greater and greater extent,
dont' Need the corporation in order for people to supply the basic
material needs they have for survival. Then, instead of saying "ok,
we'll take your 31 hours a week offer [less work to drink the precious liquid] and destroy our autonomous
collectives" we'll use our extra power to not only demand more from
them (great, but not enough) but to Build more for ourselves, *until we
reach 100% self-sufficiency for any human being who wants to have
freedom from wage-slavery*; those who want to continue being
wage-slaves and do so [those who want to stick with the lion]. I don't have any doubts as to the (long-term)
decisions people will (eventually) make given a real choice like that. [In other words, the best choice is to have choices.]

So what I've been trying to argue is, even if you are not convinced
that capitalism "can't handle" 20hours/week, as you ARE on the
Anarchist page, I imagine that getting 20 hours per week like
"working for the man" is NOT your "ultimate" quest; rather, a liberated
workforce which is democratically run and self-governing and not under
an employer's rule. Right..?

Well I am stating, we don't' have to Wait Until we win that battle for
20 hours a week from employer, to only THEN fight for the next step
(or several steps ahead) of eliminating wage slavery.

Actually I'm saying much more: not only we don't have to wait, but *we
Must Not wait*. And not only because workers deserve for us to move in
that direction because they deserve to be free, but because the extent
to which we *partially* get there (meaning, the number of
democratically run workplaces/collectives available for workers)
is the extent to which workers negotiating power vis a vis their
employers will be hugely increased.

There are other parallel struggles:

Likewise, while we should continue to fight for national nonprofit
health care as a right for all, we need to create grassroot
co-insurance networks which, step by step, move towards providing
that. As such, we don't beg for the corporate state to give it; we
TAKE it for ourselves; you'll be amazed at how "generous" the
corporate-state nexus will become when we have barely achieved 50% of
it for ourselves independently of them; they will suddenly offer to
do something for us when they realize *we don't NEED them because we
can get it for ourselves*. [Like I said before, we must build our own water well.]

Similarly, there is a power shift of a gigantic order of magnitude, to
the extent that a worker, or group of workers, can tell the boss (or
the corporation) and tell the truth when saying this: I can GET
20 hours per week (plus a democratically worker-run workplace, plus
much more) OVER THERE. Now, what counter-offer do you have for me to
get me to want to continue to work for YOU?" [Nice, no?]

The dynamics of the negotiation are radically altered from begging, or
even "pressuring" for them TO GIVE TO US what we want, to one where
we ALREADY CAN provide for ourselves what we want (or a substantial
percent of it, at least...) and ask them for a counter-offer. This is
extremely potent, as you can see!

(snip)

My vision is to have a large scale national (and eventually global)
growth of networks of autonimous but interdependent and cooperating
groups which nurture one another. Technology could be a powerful force
to harness here. The "Groups" and networks would be of different
kinds anarcho-syndicalist types by profession/vocation; networks by
areas of life-needs like in the area of health the co-insurance
network idea; and at least a third type, namely financial networks of
mutual credit. This is a thumbnail sketch. I am working on a piece
which will go into much more detail, hopefully done by end of this
summer (I started incubating these ideas in 1999 and earlier,
the Media, rather than Economy ideas, are already under Projects
in my www.EconomicDemocracy.org)

But even when that is done, I will solicit the input from many other
who share the vision to refine, modify, improve, expand on, and make
this strategic vision and its tactics ever more detailed. I hope this
sounds exciting to you in the sense of your being interested in
(sometimes less frequent, sometimes more frequent, but) long-term
contact and collaboration.>>>

Best,

Harel Barzilai

www.EconomicDemocracy.org

http://www.economicd...ic-emancipation
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#2200 woj1@cyberonic.

woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 03:59 AM

I have today the great day , I saw how moral authoritative altered to dust;
No one church today condemned today invasion on Iraq. No one church condemned Albanians . They with American acceptation organized new war on Serbs.
Today really started a new era, the New MILENIUM .
Church after 2 thousand years of power went to ashes.
Church doesn
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