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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#2201 Bader

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 06:09 AM

the pace quickens...

If you ever get converted Donq the world will never remember Billy Graham.

Woj, the Church is not dead it goes through metamorphesis ( phaenix) because it comes from Babylon. You should have more respect for the Polish Pope. With his tripple crown he holds up mankind, the earth and heaven, no wonder his neck is aging faster than the rest of his body.
The clothes are the clothes of an emporer, the exact opposite to
the Christ. Same regards the spirit, it does have a spirit, the opposite which has a huge position in bible prophesy is the Anti-Christ, who is a Man of Peace, to come, the world desires.
Some believe it will be Prince Charles, now he's not British Woj,
he's German. I think if I remember correctly his father has Spanish and Jugoslavian royal connections, while Mum is basically German. Anyway its Europe, the women riding the bull, as portrayed on their Euro coiun and as described in the Book of Revelations- babylon the great Harlot of the Leaders of the Nations who prosper from her harlotry, a women in scarlet riding a beast, all sounds familiar, eh what. (and how people want Russia to join the seance, what have they got against the Russians?)
You can say what you like Woj, you dont come close to the
denunciation of the same in the Bible and by Jesus.
I hope the Eastern and Russian Orthodox Churches doesnt drink of the wine of harlotry with the mother of harlots.
Recently the Russian Church leader wanted Putin to make approaches to the Mother of Harlots to help make a new relationship and the man wisely refused.
Did you know Putin was a Christian. The US main press has
refused to allow the US public to know. I expect he is isnt a Babylonian Christian like Bush and the Pope.
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#2202 Bader

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 10:37 AM

Competition to the lion is the "non-integrating gap" nations
and the cooperating nations are called "functioning core".

Bush has demonstrated what happens to those who want to
avoid cooperating. They are deemed to be breeding ground for terrorism. Particularly if you have oil resources at the moment.

Mr Economic Democracy identified "what we are up against"

they were:
corrupt power
individuals
business
capitalism
corporatism
and in stage four he refers to Participatory Economics which "various good ...........have tried to address, which I would
include in his list as ' corrupt information' because while most people can agree things arent what they should be but there is huge variance over how to deal with it and much of the thinking is within the mindset of the problem system, thus they never escape. Which relates to the fifth stage of " I see not enough of".

He included in his thinking the old tug-o-war beteen the worker and the boss/manufacturer/industry, which the Unions and left wing political parties used to ride. That was pure Hegel/Marx
dialectic divide and rule which has lead to free-market, work contracts and exported industry to poor nations. Both the unions and the business world believe in globalism today.
With jobs going over seas, going to low paid immigrants, to people prepared to work longer hours for less, even overtime for nothing to keep the job, he is dreaming of telling the boss 20 hours for a weeks pay or shove it. The Boss will shove it to the next person walking in the door, followed by a dozen others.

The Boss, the Businessman want the same break from ther same Lion.
The lion is best served by the serfs fighting between themselves.
When one wants to win at the expense of the other- the worker and the boss, the lion sleeps soundly at night and doesnt have to pay the Regulators to deal with the ones who are getting
smart.
Bank slavery for the Boss is the same as slave labour for the worker who also has bank slavery through credit cards etc as well.

He got it right in saying the earth increasingly depends on a saner economic system but the economic system is designed to
work for the banksters which he hasnt identied as a problem.
Economic theory is based on a simple principle that industry supplies the money to clear its production, that is, its a self balancing system. This is rubbish but economists are rare who
dont remain deceived by it. One simple example of proof that it cant is the fact that industry has to go off shore to us cheap labour, in another economy, to keep down costs but sell to another economy for the profits. If the theory was true the workers in developed countries would create the goods they use and be able to pay the profits needed to the businmesses they work for, right, given they are self-balancing. Then there is the others side of the same coin. If it is all self balancing there would be/ would never have been the struggle between the Unions and industry, both would have been satisfied by the system.
Another proof of false theory is inflation. Inflation is evidence of a system out of balance.

"Technology could be a powerful force to harness here"

A hundred years ago workers were looking forward to the day when technology would reduce their working hours, eg 20 hour week. Where has the equivalent of wages of technology gone,
that replaced workers and made them redundant?
Its in the prices but not in the pockets of the workers who do work. Self clearing system? No the bankers got the advantage
of the progress of man.
Did you know eighty percent of businesses fail?
Are workers the only victims?
I believe ina system that gives everyone a break except the Lion.
This guy adds a third type of coop enterprize- financial networks of mutual credit.
No one can do anything without money so why is it virtually an after thought? It reads like as if in Genesis God created the animals first then the grass later on which they live and the earth last.
Politcal democracy is where people rule for the people. Economic democarcy is where the money system is by the people (not the
Lion) for the people (both worker and businessman) not the Lion.
Once people have the funds to vote with the practical and honest systems will be created by demand- look after pennies system and the rest will look after themselves.
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#2203 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 01:36 PM

:o When Pope doesn
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#2204 Bader

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 06:38 PM

Thanks for that Woj.

The Serbian Police were supposed to have commited atrocities
in Kosovo. Yet a mass grave was found of serbians there and the mainstream media didnt report it.
The Washington Post only had a photo of relatives looking over the bodies trying to identify them but no story,
and a building that the Kosovo "liberation" arm had been using had serb police uniforms amongst junk they left behind.

Really this, including Iraq, is all a further development of the Wall St behind the Third Reich. The Jewish elite and their so-called Nazi hunt
know all this and could have had all these dealt with including
Bush's grandfather, at real Numremburg trials and saved the world a lot of pain. Well how big are Jews on wall St, their own intregues in Russia starting in 1917 etc. Baring mind they are
not really Jews at all.
There wouldnt have been an Israel without the Third Reich.
Hitler whoes mother was a Jewess , which makes him a Jew by
their culture is used as a scapegoat by the Zionists who blocked the escape of Jews purposefully to create the holocaust industry
and justify the rape of Palestine (where the majority of Jews have never wanted to go).
Who is crying over the rape of palestine, which the UN sanctioned, so who will for the Serbs and all the other victims of their neighbours?
The Zionists were the force behind Roosevelt, who had a strong Jewish line (Delaney's), to create the UN. While they claim the
UN persecutes them
and they appear to play no role there, they have huge influence through the most influential nation that dominates the Permanent Security Council. Well whats knew about the pupeteer. They are not alone of course.
They have the banking system to set the standards and the methods to get what one wants by both hidden and open power
supported by a propoganda press and leverage over poliltical leaders so all or most look the other way. They corrupt history
so the world believes a lie, perputrated by academics so the following generations carry on the lie and delusions that we are getting better as we become more like animals.
Well they believe we are all but animals- cattle to be exact.
Anyone else would be treated as neo-nazi to hold such a belief
but they are allowed to do anything because if you disagree you
must hate them. Thats why re-education of culture and religion is needed so there is no disagreance, then we have peace.
Peace is looking the other way WOj.
Putin is inciting terrorism by such objections, inciting people to
hate the evil that has been done. We shouldnt be talking about
this progess nagatively.
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#2205 donquijote

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 06:45 PM

<He included in his thinking the old tug-o-war beteen the worker and the boss/manufacturer/industry, which the Unions and left wing political parties used to ride. That was pure Hegel/Marx
dialectic divide and rule which has lead to free-market, work contracts and exported industry to poor nations. Both the unions and the business world believe in globalism today.
With jobs going over seas, going to low paid immigrants, to people prepared to work longer hours for less, even overtime for nothing to keep the job, he is dreaming of telling the boss 20 hours for a weeks pay or shove it. The Boss will shove it to the next person walking in the door, followed by a dozen others.>

Aloha Bader
The Union is no more than the little animals organizing themselves and negotiate with the lion better access to the water well. The problem being: 1) You still got to deal with the lion; 2) Some little animals get corrupted and grow fat forgetting about the little ones; and 3) It's only one source of water that can always run dry.

Once you build your water well though you can tell the boss to shove it off, not as means of getting a better treatment, but because you really give a f*** about the dirty water hole the lions controls. Now you have a water well of clean sparkling water, where best of all you are FREE...;)

Allow me to quote this I was just polishing up...

I have intentionally provided several paths to prosperity and justice. Actually I think THE BEST OPTION IS TO HAVE OPTIONS. Scandinavia ranks #1 in standard of living, but have the lowest corruption in the world, something unlikely to be matched right away in the regions that most need it. Besides they pay the highest taxes on Earth. So there are two major options left: First, the decentralized Swiss system that accomplishes a lot with lower taxation under a very simple democratic principle: VOTE WITH YOUR FEET among cantons and communes; second, the cooperatives that exist in places like Israel, Basque Country and even Denmark. These are probably the highest level of cooperation among humans. We can say there's no lion in them. I favor the policy of, "DON'T GIVE 'EM THE FISH, BUT TEACH 'EM HOW TO FISH," in which case the last examples fair better. But we should not forget that the Scandinavians are placing the highest priority on the needs of children and mothers, which is the best investment.

Here's an example of why people would join the kibbutz (or whatever we call them once we make a few improvements, notably a shorter workweek and more cultural activities, parties, etc)...

"Most people are living on Kibbutz Arava for two reasons: 1.) to be able to work for themselves [in other words, no boss, no lion], and 2.) to be able to raise their children in a safe and comfortable environment [in other words, no jungle]. In a world whose cities are increasingly becoming more polarized and violent, these basic wants/needs are synonymous with life on a kibbutz.

Internally, Kibbutz Arava functions rather communally and ecologically. There is a central dining room and commons area. Food that is eaten in the dining room arrives as bulk, wholesale crates, thus eliminating retail wastes such as packaging and plastic wrappers. The kibbutz is a pedestrian community. People are able to walk and ride their bikes to any kibbutz activity. In fact, there are only five leisure cars available for the 130 adult members. On kibbutz, people don't throw much away. When things break, they are fixed either by the garage, carpentry shop, or laundry. Things are not easily thrown away, as items are scarce. There are public commodities, such as a coffee and tea lounge, a pool, an entertainment area, a computer and fax room, a music studio, and a horse stable. By offering these amenities, the kibbutz eliminates the need for everyone to have their own T.V., computer, etc."

<The Boss, the Businessman want the same break from ther same Lion.
The lion is best served by the serfs fighting between themselves.
When one wants to win at the expense of the other- the worker and the boss, the lion sleeps soundly at night and doesnt have to pay the Regulators to deal with the ones who are getting
smart.>

They'll always have some little animals to work for them, but that'only normal, and the little animals may even not care, in which there's no lion for them either.

<Politcal democracy is where people rule for the people. Economic democarcy is where the money system is by the people (not the
Lion) for the people (both worker and businessman) not the Lion.
Once people have the funds to vote with the practical and honest systems will be created by demand- look after pennies system and the rest will look after themselves. >

Cornering the lion is a bad policy and can make him bite back. It's better to go separate ways, and let him be so long as he doesn't eat anyone against his will.

Remember the picture of Paradise doesn't show a dead lion?;)
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#2206 Pliny

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 07:04 PM

>>>One simple example of proof that it cant is the fact that industry has to go off shore to us cheap labour, in another economy, to keep down costs but sell to another economy for the profits. If the theory was true the workers in developed countries would create the goods they use and be able to pay the profits needed to the businmesses they work for, right, given they are self-balancing. Then there is the others side of the same coin. If it is all self balancing there would be/ would never have been the struggle between the Unions and industry, both would have been satisfied by the system.
Another proof of false theory is inflation. Inflation is evidence of a system out of balance. <<<

I will only agree that inflation is evidence of a system out of balance and only because it is constant and therefore can be seen to be on of the controlling factors, or tools, used in central bank policy.

Pointing to inequities as "proofs" that it (capitalism) is not a self balancing system is not a logical argument. There would never be a time for "self-balancing" if it were always balanced. That those inequities exist is not arguable. That they will correct in time and thus be "self-balancing" is the argument. I believe they will correct without interventionist actions taken by government, and in fact I would argue interventionist policies to correct perceived imbalances destablizes the market, preventing or prolonging self-balance and introducing it's own inequities.

Previously, I had talked about government cooperation and competition. Just to clarify, under control of the people they are cooperative. Once they have reached a certain size and control by the people has been lost they then are not cooperative with the people but only with those factors in the society which are symbiotic. They do not allow competition. In a democracy there is the perception of competition and perhaps it does exist at it's inception but what is the difference today between a democrat and a republican? It makes little difference in the majority of people's lives who is in office. Bader, you and I can agree that other interests control government actions and the war on terrorism would have occurred under a democrat watch as well as a republican one. Is it a wonder apathy, as regards politics, lives in the citizenry and only major issues mobilize them.

Woj,

Ok, I should have said,"Didn't Putin just give Russia's largest oil company to the Rothschilds?"
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#2207 Pliny

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 07:17 PM

>>>these basic wants/needs are synonymous with life on a kibbutz. <<<

I respectfully disagree. Your kibbutz or commune is the ideal of the flower child of the sixties. Peace and harmony. Turn on tune in and drop out. Our current civilization is flawed, is not necessary and must be replaced.

There is some beauty in it. The hustle and bustle of a city and I could go on but time is limited and I must go for now.

Talk to you all later.
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#2208 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 09:04 PM

:) Bader; ***** Putin is inciting terrorism by such objections, inciting people tohate the evil that has been done. We shouldn
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#2209 Pliny

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Posted 21 March 2004 - 10:01 PM

>>>Rothschilds is is far better investment to real estate on the moon. <<<

Excellent. Spoken like a true socialist. No dreams, no goals - the only purpose is to serve the State and the only excitement is to see how much you can steal from it.

The good qualities of the individual are what matter and make a social system decent. Honesty, honor, respect for others and their property, industry (as opposed to indolence), compassion,
affinity, trustworthiness and reliability. These things are what make life worthwhile under any system. I am afraid statism does not cultivate these qualities in it's subjects. It is too concerned with controlling it's subjects. Perhaps, under Statism, a certain camaraderie among men can be established underground but it is usually quite shallow as the State soon intervenes and they have ways.

Do you think men like Kissinger or Brezinski can be trusted ? They are elitists who have already sold their souls.
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#2210 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 12:05 AM

Pliny; ********. No dreams, no goals*** ;
I read that Mark Rothschild was dreamer and as a result was cooked and consummated by cannibals.
******** Excellent. Spoken like a true socialist. No dreams, no goals - the only purpose is to serve the State and the only excitement is to see how much you can steal from it.*******
I appreciate very much that you see in me socialist, I believe that rights of state is more important than rights of individuals.; can be in democracy the majority rule and dictatorship of individuals? not..
Regarding stealing; socialists are more straight forward; so stealing is stealing, but in capitalism you see irregularities; in Enron, Halliburton Co and so on.....
Regarding rights of individuals you forget ;Patriot act;

I prefer doquishote conception to yodeler in Swiss. :P
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#2211 donquijote

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 01:00 AM

<I respectfully disagree. Your kibbutz or commune is the ideal of the flower child of the sixties. Peace and harmony. Turn on tune in and drop out. Our current civilization is flawed, is not necessary and must be replaced.>

Howdy Pliny
Many would benefit from kibbutz life, particularly children, and best of all, they wouldn't require welfare. But it would just be an option, just like the Mondragon coops (workers' capitalism) and other economic alternatives where people "learn how to fish"...

Children
Most people have heard about kibbutz children from the founding days of kibbutzim. The early idealists felt that the nuclear family unit was obsolete, and the entire kibbutz should be one big family unit. Children slept in children's houses with a caretaker to tend to their night needs. While this made for a fascinating experiment (which Bruno Bettelheim analysed in his "Children of the Dream"), parents and children alike found it distressing.

Today, children on every kibbutz live and sleep with their parents, at least into their teen years, and the children's houses have become day care and activity centers.

On Ketura, most of the children are given an apartment in their senior year of high school, which they share with another senior student.

Still, Ketura takes a small-town view of shared parental and community responsibility: "It takes a whole kibbutz to raise a child." For preschool children, this means providing full day care. For school-age children, it means not only after-school activities, but also a commitment to being a part of the regional school. Outside of regular hours, there are evening activities for school-age children, as well as summer camps and outings.

The physical focus for all of these activities is in the children's houses, and the official language of all activities (despite our many native English-speakers) is Hebrew.

Children on Ketura enter the day care system sometime between 3 and 6 months of age. Age groups are primarily divided according to the eventual school year of the children. Groups are usually between 6 and 10 in number, so every child gets a great deal of individual attention. The day care system includes a physical therapist and educational and psychological advisors who periodically observe each group.

School-aged children take the bus to the regional school, which is located on Kibbutz Yotvata 5 + miles (10 km) down the road. Because of all the children of native English-speakers in the area, the school has a separate class for them when they begin English studies in the third grade. The school recently won an award from the Ministry of Education and has been recognized several times for excellence.
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#2212 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 01:16 AM

Bush or Kerry?
Isn
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#2213 Pliny

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 01:31 AM

>>>I appreciate very much that you see in me socialist, I believe that rights of state is more important than rights of individuals.; can be in democracy the majority rule and dictatorship of individuals? not..
Regarding stealing; socialists are more straight forward; so stealing is stealing, but in capitalism you see irregularities; in Enron, Halliburton Co and so on.....
Regarding rights of individuals you forget ;Patriot act; <<<

There can be the dictatorship of the majority in a democracy and worse, there can be what we see today - the dictatorship of the minority. People do not realize democracy has not been around for at least a half a century in western civilization. Those that know best have been running the show. Siting, Enron, Haliburton and a few other corporate miscreants doesn't blight the whole economic system because what has occurred is government interventionism, cronyism and over-regulation that doesn't allow for self-correction.

It would be good if you read Boehm-Bwerk's treatise on Marxist economics for a good understanding of why socialism cannot work.

I differ with your cnocept of socialists being more straight forward. I believe capitalists are more blatant about their activities than socialists but that's not to say there aren't greedy capitalists. Socialists must ride the coat-tails of
production and must suckle from it parasitically.

It is easily discovered who is being "contributed to" more than they feel they are contributing. The whiners and complainers and socialists who leave responsibility for their lives to the State.

Rockefeller knew the way to riches was through the competition of the capitalist market and being the greediest capitalist of them all supported communism and socialist ideals in order to protect his riches from others and be the only one able to amass the wealth of the world, which is basically controlling the production of people and ensuring they do not amass any great wealth by extorting it through taxation and redistributing it - great philanthropist that he was - he loved the poor. Ha, Ha.

The patriot Act!!!! I do not forget it. It is merely further indication of a lack of democracy.
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#2214 donquijote

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 01:35 AM

"The small size and homogeneity of the community allow parents to take an active role in deciding how their children are educated."

Sorry, but works, works. Scandinavia spends a whopping 50% tax to keep up a welfare system, but these kibbutz take care of their kids at the local level. So I see this solution more as libertarian than socialist, is it not?

PS: Pliny, are you libertarian?

Children at Lotan
Children's Houses and Educational Activities
The number of children born each year on Lotan has risen steadily from an average of one a year in the late '80s to three a year in the early '90s to about seven a year now. But in 1998 thirteen babies were born! Our children have always slept in their parents' homes. From the age of three months, we provide daycare. Currently, our children are cared for and educated in three separate systems: Infants and Toddlers

We care for our preschoolers (ages 2-4) at Lotan, in one building, with two bedrooms, kitchenettes, bathrooms, and central play areas. The bedrooms are designed to hold up to seven small beds. The infants are cared for in a remodeled family house. In 1999, we built an extension, and in the summer of 2000, we completed the play yard using community-based work and alternative building techniques (used tires, garbage and mud.)

The children's days include a brief morning service with morning prayers and songs, breakfast and lunch together, a "tiyul" (walk) around the kibbutz to visit cows, goats, or other branches of community life. The children also have playtime outdoors in their play yards and other educational and creative activities as are age appropriate.

Kindergarten and Pre-Kindergarten
Lotan's 4-5 year olds attend the kindergarten at neighboring Kibbutz Yahel, located seven miles north of Lotan. As both kibbutzim belong to the Reform Movement, the educational match is natural.

School
Our school children attend the regional school, Ma'aleh Shacharut, located at Kibbutz Yotvata which serves all ten kibbutzim in the Southern Arava. School in the lower grades is held six days a week, from 8:00 to 12:30. High School kids are in school for five days a week (longer days) and work one day a week on the kibbutz. Lotan's children then attend after-school activities in one of three centers:

After-School Study and Play Centers
Since September 1997, there are enough school-age children on Lotan to provide after-school activities here. Answering a request that came from the children themselves, we have begun afternoon activities for all the school age kids, in renovated apartments and a bomb shelter. Today there are three groups: 1st through 3rd graders, 4th through 7th graders, and 8th - 12th graders. These groups engage in age-appropriate programming aimed at building positive Reform Zionist identity and increasing their feeling of connection and pride in their community.

Childcare and education form one of the hallmarks of kibbutz. The "on-site" daycare saves parents the strain of balancing the demands of children and career, and encourages both parents to be active in educating their children. The small size and homogeneity of the community allow parents to take an active role in deciding how their children are educated. The supportive community of the kibbutz allows children to experiment in "real life" at an early age. Our children take an active part in the cultural and religious life of the kibbutz, helping to prepare holiday celebrations for the entire community. The older children create their own "children's community," creating their own rules and norms, integrating younger children into the activities. Until now, we did not have enough children to develop a vibrant children's community. Finally we have almost all that we need -- more children every year, trained adults enthusiastic about working with them, and a long list of ideas.

http://www.birdingis...ty/children.htm
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#2215 donquijote

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 01:52 AM

<Rockefeller knew the way to riches was through the competition of the capitalist market and being the greediest capitalist of them all supported communism and socialist ideals in order to protect his riches from others and be the only one able to amass the wealth of the world, which is basically controlling the production of people and ensuring they do not amass any great wealth by extorting it through taxation and redistributing it - great philanthropist that he was - he loved the poor. Ha, Ha.>

So, he did indeed hate competition, a trait of the lion. In Communism they have an even tighter control of the water well. In their hate of competition, Communism is the highest stage of Capitalism, which explains why they get along so good (say China, Cuba...)

"The greatest sin is competition." - JD Rockefeller

And such statement makes a lion a lion.
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#2216 donquijote

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 03:35 AM

Here is to show how much pressure there is on kibbbutz to go capitalist--and where that pressure is coming from.

I find highly suspicious that the idea was never exported... Could it be that they would have supplied a water well to the thristy little animals?;)

An arms-selling kibbutz echoes a shift in Israeli values

Riot-control equipment was shipped by an Israeli kibbutz to Zimbabwe last month.

By Ben Lynfield | Special to The Christian Science Monitor

KIBBUTZ BEIT ALFA, ISRAEL v With its haystacks, rusting plows, and the scent of livestock, Kibbutz Beit Alfa at first seems to resemble its founders' vision of a model community based on agriculture.
For generations, members of this kibbutz prided themselves on their idealism, defined themselves as a vanguard of Zionist socialism, and believed that their effort to create a utopian community was part of a revolution that would improve the lot of mankind.

(snip)

"I am absolutely against any sale of military or paramilitary equipment to countries that abuse human rights," says Celso Garbarz, the international secretary of HaShomer HaZa'ir. "It goes against the values of humanism."

Mr. Avrahamy, the kibbutz historian, says: "Instead of the kibbutz influencing the society, we on the kibbutz have become ruled by a wave of brutal capitalism and Americanization. It certainly is no cause for happiness. I hope there will be a reverse process, with an emphasis on humanism, not just capitalism."

full article...

http://www.csmonitor...07s01-wome.html
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#2217 Pliny

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 03:40 AM

>>>"It takes a whole kibbutz to raise a child." <<< Ok, I understand where you are coming from now and totally disagree.

The "nuclear family" (funny how they tied those two words together, isn't it?) is promoted as being obsolete by our social engineers. Your counsellors, psychological advisors are all products of of an engineered education and promote what behavior they are taught to promote and quash what behavior they are taught to quash.

The whole history of the demise of the family, the promotion of feminism, and the acceptance of alternative lifestyles is very thoroughly documented by Henry Makow.(www.savethemales.com)

I tend toward libertarianism, yes! I believe government should be limited in it's mandate and scope. The individual and family can, with a proper education not an engineered one, look after their affairs more precisely and efficiently than any government. If it is mutually beneficial and agreed upon to operate a commune or kibbutz, I don't have a problem with it. It however should not be legislated.

Sweden is not in such geat shape. It has the highest incidences of heroin overdoses in the world and their crime statistics are skewed by the fact they consider most crimes to be behavioral problems requiring medical intervention rather than criminal prosecution.

Yes - Rockefeller did hate competition. The best tool to eliminate it is communism and socialism. It is good enough for the masses.

>>>These groups engage in age-appropriate programming aimed at building positive Reform Zionist identity<<<

Social Engineering ?

A little further on the nuclear family. All the faults are pointed at by social engineers but when you point at today's rising crime rates and kids disrespect for authority and others it is not attributed to the daycare nor lack of a stable individual in their lives that is always there for them. Parents still get the blame. Even after responsibility for discipline has been taken away.
The government promoted feminism because it saw a 50% increase in it's tax base if women went out to work. Forget the family. True, women did take a lot of oppression and that correction was necessary but the importance of the family unit should have been stressed instead of the get your own career and make your own money and be independent - the capitalist lure. Families are about the only thing that should be socialist and perhaps dictatorial if and when necessary.

If public education provides what is needed for children then why are parents having to purchase $800 phonics kits in order to read properly or tutoring to ensure access to a higher education.
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#2218 Pliny

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 04:01 AM

>>>For generations, members of this kibbutz prided themselves on their idealism, defined themselves as a vanguard of Zionist socialism, and believed that their effort to create a utopian community was part of a revolution that would improve the lot of mankind.<<<

What happened to this kibbutz? It is against human behavior.
We must learn to control our behavior and people who are sociable do learn this but sometimes you have to use the tools god gave you to protect yourself. When you try and strip away part of human nature it always fails. People must have the potential to protect themselves. Whether that means running fast or standing up against oppressors the potential must exist or there is not a complete person and one that is vulnerable.
Capitalism did not destroy the kibbutz. You give Capitalism too much credit, by the way.

In western society why hasn't the government taken over the distribution of food. If it is so efficient and can do a better job why doesn't it? Because it can't. Look at healthcare in Canada. Long lineups, restricted service, mediocre practitioners, inefficiencies. The best go elsewhere. It's a shambles. I don't recommend putting medicine on the business model at all. It belongs in the charitable model. Churches grew phenomenally without government taxation and interference and the same could be true of hospitals and medicine. That churches are now contracting has nothing to do with government but with their own service that has been replaced by science and secular humanism. Churches can no longer deliver to a gullible public.
They have no foundation to hold their beliefs together.
How can one prove theology? It is all a matter of what one will accept and sounds logical. The idea of god and spirit is totally acceptable in my view and science has not provided a better theory.

I have some work to do so I must be going and it is time to end this rant for now at any rate.

bye for now.
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#2219 donquijote

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 01:03 PM

<Ok, I understand where you are coming from now and totally disagree.

The "nuclear family" (funny how they tied those two words together, isn't it?) is promoted as being obsolete by our social engineers. Your counsellors, psychological advisors are all products of of an engineered education and promote what behavior they are taught to promote and quash what behavior they are taught to quash.>

Howdy Pliny
We can certainly keep the community approach to education/rearing of the child without any praying/indoctrination. But I believe you supported--and forgime me if I'm wrong--the example of the Amish, when I brought up their example before. Anyways I think the libertarians support their lifestyle. What's the diff? We could make as many corrections to the kibbutz as we want but the fact remains that many people join them to have a better education for their children. They don't want them to be educated in the jungle...:confused:

I've taken your point of *why* women have been actively pushed to work, but what's the solution, for the women to stay home and raise the child while watching soap operas? I think it should remain an option for some, but definitely women' role in society should be better than that...;)

Do we have anything that indicates that American children are better educated in their homes than Scandinavian children in daycare? You know in Denmark they have forbidden TV commercials in children programming? Where do we score better in America, having brought up consumers of junk food and gadgets?
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#2220 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 01:09 PM

:D ....They attempt to grab oil now , but before they tried to colonize the whole world .
British Museum is a symbol of Western civilization; Everything is stolen there , nothing their own.
Exponents there are just witnesses of British crime; as opium war in Chaina , war in Burma, lLos , Kambodia and India and Pakistan and Afganistan and in Iraq and Iran and so on.
And West dosn
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