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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#2221 donquijote

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 01:18 PM

<What happened to this kibbutz? It is against human behavior.
We must learn to control our behavior and people who are sociable do learn this but sometimes you have to use the tools god gave you to protect yourself. When you try and strip away part of human nature it always fails. People must have the potential to protect themselves. Whether that means running fast or standing up against oppressors the potential must exist or there is not a complete person and one that is vulnerable.
Capitalism did not destroy the kibbutz. You give Capitalism too much credit, by the way.>

I've thought long and hard about the problem, and some people fear the libertarian as much as some people fear the kibbutz. But it ain't nothing wrong with either one, so long as people choose to join them freely. Some people are definitely the kibbutz tyoe(the no-lion approach) and others the free enterprise type (the good lion approach, say), but the real problem--and I was telling Bader this--is the Fox. He's the faker behind both what we know "communism" and "democracy." He's the bureaucrat, the politician, the priest...

En either of the systems above you don't have much room for the fox--people join what they want whether is a kibbutz or a maquiladora. That to me is democracy, real democracy...;)

If you understand that everybody should have options, we are talking about the same thing.
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#2222 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 02:46 PM

Donquichote; Kibbutz is nothing new , de facto it is Platon idea . :( Sorry donquichote.
Plato says that best possible brought up is in the a state nursery. State sponsoring edification was Plato idea. He presented his program in works in
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#2223 Pliny

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 05:46 PM

>>>...but definitely women' role in society should be better than that...<<<

You have that same engineered thought...basically that raising children is below the dignity of women or is some lesser task in their lives. It is the most important thing in a society and has to do with it'sfuture. It seems more naturally their biological role.

I do not condemn all women to the role of child rearing but there is nothing more important than that if someone should choose to have children. The State no longer encourages or supports families. It condemns them and suggests the answer to the problem of looking after children is the province of the state.
You seem to think it a drudgery to be a mother and I cannot stress how valuable they are to children, and the state can never replace one for the good of a child.

As far as a "kibbutz" goes, I always leave the door open to the choice of the individual but that is the crux - choice. State run co-ops are doomed to failure. Your analogy of the fox encompasses my thoughts quite clearly. As I said earlier, the good traits of an individual are what makes an endeavor work and a fox in the henhouse brings chaos and death. In using your analogy I would not condemn the proud lion, but would the stealthy fox.

>>>You know in Denmark they have forbidden TV commercials in children programming?<<<

First you say there is no evidence of problems with daycare. Then you say the above. Is there a problem the state is trying to solve? Is capitalism infringing on children through advertising or is it that the State feels it is protecting the child? It appears to be the right thing to do. What else will the State feel is the right thing to do in the future? Cannot someone choose to not watch TV? If enough people were educated to make correct choices in their lives they would and the change would come about without State intervention. The government is intervening not only in the lives of children but in the livlihood of it's economy and those earning a living and paying it's taxes,basically keeping it going but if it continues it won't be keeping it going for long and totalitarianism is the logical end.

You condemn American commercialism in the same way but how much dos government interventionism contribute to the sinking morals of the economic system? The State is not the good-will, Santa Claus organization most people think it is and it is the den of the fox in my opinion.
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#2224 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 22 March 2004 - 07:40 PM

:mad: As far as a "kibbutz" goes, I think that Sharon is victim of kibbutz early education. Only somebody depressed in childhood, can behave so immature, ha, hha. Am I right?
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#2225 Pliny

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Posted 23 March 2004 - 02:26 AM

Good one! Could be right. Some cold-hearted soul was his tutor.
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#2226 donquijote

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Posted 23 March 2004 - 04:19 AM

<You have that same engineered thought...basically that raising children is below the dignity of women or is some lesser task in their lives. It is the most important thing in a society and has to do with it'sfuture. It seems more naturally their biological role.

I do not condemn all women to the role of child rearing but there is nothing more important than that if someone should choose to have children. The State no longer encourages or supports families. It condemns them and suggests the answer to the problem of looking after children is the province of the state.
You seem to think it a drudgery to be a mother and I cannot stress how valuable they are to children, and the state can never replace one for the good of a child.>

Howdy Pliny
I don't know but perhpas I have a pictuture of two human beings--mother and child--stuck in one small place, one watching soap operas, the other watching cartoons, violence, etc, and I would say, they can't possibly be happy. They both need their peers, and then they have time together after work/daycare, etc. Just picture yourself, I would be screaming.

There's an article on the subject at Time magazine...

<As far as a "kibbutz" goes, I always leave the door open to the choice of the individual but that is the crux - choice. State run co-ops are doomed to failure. Your analogy of the fox encompasses my thoughts quite clearly. As I said earlier, the good traits of an individual are what makes an endeavor work and a fox in the henhouse brings chaos and death. In using your analogy I would not condemn the proud lion, but would the stealthy fox.>

We totally agree. But where is the working model that most resembles the libertarian model? I'm sure it would work, just that for some. And if it works for all, people would join you, right?.

>>>You know in Denmark they have forbidden TV commercials in children programming?<<<

<First you say there is no evidence of problems with daycare. Then you say the above. Is there a problem the state is trying to solve? Is capitalism infringing on children through advertising or is it that the State feels it is protecting the child? It appears to be the right thing to do. What else will the State feel is the right thing to do in the future? Cannot someone choose to not watch TV? If enough people were educated to make correct choices in their lives they would and the change would come about without State intervention. The government is intervening not only in the lives of children but in the livlihood of it's economy and those earning a living and paying it's taxes,basically keeping it going but if it continues it won't be keeping it going for long and totalitarianism is the logical end.>

I'd put it this way: If you can stop the junk food companies from preying on innocent children by education alone, hey, go for it; but if you can't, hey, lets lend a hand from Big Brother, no?

Do you reject a warning label on cigarettes?

<You condemn American commercialism in the same way but how much dos government interventionism contribute to the sinking morals of the economic system? The State is not the good-will, Santa Claus organization most people think it is and it is the den of the fox in my opinion. >

By far the greatest problem is the fox. So a solution I see is people who don't like foxes, create their own cooperatives, corporations, etc. It's like expanding the principle of political parties into the economic, no?
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#2227 donquijote

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Posted 23 March 2004 - 04:21 AM

<Good one! Could be right. Some cold-hearted soul was his tutor.>

But "state engineered" Scandinavian children are not that violent, are they?
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#2228 donquijote

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Posted 23 March 2004 - 04:40 AM

< As far as a "kibbutz" goes, I think that Sharon is victim of kibbutz early education. Only somebody depressed in childhood, can behave so immature, ha, hha. Am I right? >

Weren't you socially engineered under communism too? I was and it didn't work...
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#2229 donquijote

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Posted 23 March 2004 - 04:47 AM

Advantages...

"Ongoing research by the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development suggests that children in quality daycare centers may even have an intellectual edge over those in other kinds of care. When researchers compared kids in quality daycare to those in other, equally high-quality childcare situations, children in centers performed a little better on tests.

Finally, toddlers can benefit from the chance to socialize with other children, which they may not get to do as often or at all when a nanny or a relative cares for them at home."

Disadvantages? Sure, mostly high cost.;)

but also be aware of this...

It's true that quality of care dips when a person has to watch over too many children, but good centers make an effort to keep the teacher-child ratio as low as possible. Also, having a number of teachers at these centers means they can support each other when needed. Quality daycare centers keep the number of children in each group low, too. "It's easier to give one-on-one attention and be responsive when there are fewer kids in a room," says Stephanie Glowacki, director of accreditation programs at the National Association for the Education of Young Children, a benchmark of quality.

The organization recommends:

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#2230 Pliny

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Posted 23 March 2004 - 06:58 AM

>>>I'd put it this way: If you can stop the junk food companies from preying on innocent children by education alone, hey, go for it; but if you can't, hey, lets lend a hand from Big Brother, no?<<<

No.

Why does it take big brother to stop junk food companies from selling their wares? These companies came about in an era when diet wasn't a concern. People were eating more healthily and didn't really have a lot of extra money for junk food which was called a treat.

We now know it should be called junk food and rarely, if ever, eaten. Once again it is assumed people are stupid and need the strong arm of government to curtail their poor eating habits.

There has been a lot of misinformation disseminated over the past century regarding diet and health. For the past forty years
low fat consumption has been pushed. The result has been epidemic levels of obesity and diabetes.

Firstly, some fats are essential in the diet, that has never been clearly defined to the public so they just avoid all fats. Then the public replaces the fats with sugars and carbohydrates. You cannot get information regarding diet and sugar today. It's as if sugar had no effect on health. I've heard it and read it from people who should know better than to say,"sugar was not included in the study because it is not a significant factor."

Type ll diabetes used to be called sugar diabetes and correctly so. If the government tries to lower the level of suggested daily sugar intake, the sugar conglomerate along with coca-cola and pepsi lobby them to not make the change or at least lessen any cuts in daily diets. They have their own scientists that prove the negligible effects of sugar in people's diets. Government can only look at the facts presented to them and the donations that are made to the right political parties to make their decisions. Governments and corporations are in league together for their mutual benefit and to the detriment of the citizenry. The corrupted FDA is a fine example of this. Where do FDA executives go when they leave the FDA? On the boards of giant pharmaceutical companies as compensation for their contributions to the pharmaceuticals.

All of this is starting to unravel and the internet is an excellent vehicle to do the unraveling. The media whores only print what they are told to.

We do have a problem in that a whole generation of children have been subjected to miseducation. They are disrespectful, can't read(Public education), and only demand they be catered to(daycares?).
I think the great majority can, with correct information, straighten themselves out and I don't mean to imply they are bad. It is just how they feel they should behave.

I could go on forever about the social engineering that exists in society and people aren't even aware of it. They think they are making their own decisions. "Hmmm... the government oughta do something about that!"

Science has also been bastardized to prove whatever someone will pay them to prove or not prove. You quote form the National Institute of Child Health and Development but they have already dismissed the "nuclear family" as not being an option. "Family" juxtaposed with "nuclear"???? What's with that - do you not see some intent behind coining that phrase?

Their job is to ensure that proper social engineering occurs. They would not have a job if it was found that the "nuclear family" was the best option and leave it at that. Research must go on and experimentation must continue. Never mind what has occurred over the last 10,000 years of development. It was obviously successful because we are still here but I am not sure how much longer we will be here when the government has to do all the thinking for us to the point of telling us what commercials to not watch on TV.

Daycares teach the children how to socialize. They don't allow inappropriate behavior. They must be caring and sharing. All that compulsory sharing does, is teach the child that he can own nothing. Nothing is his. And enforced caring is what one feigns for favor. The enforcement of this behavior makes a child feel evil if he does not want to share or does not like someone for some reason and doesn't care about him. He has no choice to share with whom he cares for. Forcing him to share with someone whom he has no connection with is more child molestation than anything else.

I have heard of events where a child is tormented by someone to the breaking point and when he retaliates he is punished? Of course the counsellor does not see the activities of the fox only the retaliatory action. Does this teach respect for others? I know that is anecdotal but I see no vast improvement in the upcoming generation over the previous one.

We must be able to observe. I see the crumbling of a civilization. What arises out of it, who knows? Maybe nothing. I am an optimist though and I think there are enough people who can still think and act to pull something out of the ashes. Those waiting for the government to make decisions for them will be doing just that - a lot of waiting.

Governments are, as I say, the foxes den and must be held under tight rein.
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#2231 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 23 March 2004 - 12:05 PM

Social engineering is like and Mortal Choices ;
Thomas Traut in Matters of Life and Death says;
public health and mortality is universal interest . What should our national and global goals regarding infectious diseases and cancer be? Should we increase our efforts to find cures? Are there alternative strategies for preventing, or at least reducing, the incidence of major diseases?
From ancient records, he demonstrates that in the past large cities had amazingly high mortality rates. In 1st century Rome, 50 percent of all children died by the age of 10. It was not until the 19th century that this pattern became altered as common efforts for public health led to removal of waste and to better protection of water supplies.
In an age in which our attention is focused on cures for AIDS and cancer, the author carefully details how prevention is the more rational strategy. Although cancer is most simply viewed as the result of a mutation in DNA for which some medical treatment must be found, we are given a review of cancer epidemiology that emphasizes how some cancers are caused by environmental carcinogens (preventable by controlling their dispersal) and how other cancers are caused by infectious viruses (preventable by vaccination).
Preventive measures have specific costs . Analogical situation is in Social engineering. As for Health care the most important is removal of waste and to better protection of water supplies, for Social Engineering the most important is to punish criminals for
.... trying to grab oil or attempting to colonize the whole world . You can not talk about of heath care in presence of waste; i or social engineering at presence of British Museum. :D
British Museum is the symbol of crime of Western civilization.
In British Museum everything is stolen , nothing created by British by their own.
As waste are source of viruses and bacteria , the British Museum artifacts are the proof of Western civilization and particularly British crimes.
Can we talk seriously about social engineering and same time, prize opium war in China , war in Burma, Laos , Kambodia and India and Pakistan and Afghanistan and in Iraq and Iran and so on. :mad: NO.
As long world desn
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#2232 Pliny

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Posted 23 March 2004 - 05:08 PM

What has occurred has occurred. The British Museum may have stolen artifacts, the Americans (mostly former Europeans)may occupy stolen lands. Righting the past wrongs of our ancestors is an impossible task unless we all fall on the sword. What was, was.

Social engineering has to do with one individual controlling the behavior of other individuals. Societies have done this for a long time asserting their superiority and oppressing others. Today it is refined to controlling the individual and they have abandoned trying to force people. Force and coercion has been the past tools of social engineering but were never fully successful as once the force is removed reversion to their own contrary will is the result.

Today the fox uses behavior modification and "experts" and "authority" to get agreement without the person realizing he is being led in a certain direction. Most in western society are comfortable and complacent to the point where government has been accepted as the giver of all good - the price - only high taxes. The real price - our freedom.

Herbert Spencer once said, "The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools." Governments prefer fools to independent thinkers.

So we see, that government will shield us from the the effects of advertising and junk food consumption as the world becomes peopled with fools.
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#2233 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 23 March 2004 - 08:54 PM

Pliny; ********What has occurred has occurred.********

Present is determined by the past . Specific situations happened to specific populations . For example bovine spongiform encephalopathy, or simple mad cow disease become epidemic in England. ( BTW. UK rejects anybody as a blood donor who had blood transfusion after 1960.) These prion sickness is still in transmission mode in Papua New Guinea ex colony of UK, next transferred to Australia until independence in 1975.
Robert Klitzman in A Personal Account of Kuru, Cannibals and Mad Cow Disease investigated Kuru trembling and mad Cow as a diseases transmitted by cannibalism. . ...
I don
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#2234 donquijote

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Posted 24 March 2004 - 12:54 AM

>>>I'd put it this way: If you can stop the junk food companies from preying on innocent children by education alone, hey, go for it; but if you can't, hey, lets lend a hand from Big Brother, no?<<<

<No.

Why does it take big brother to stop junk food companies from selling their wares?>

Because they are mighty powerful and Pavlov's dogs, I mean children don't stand a chance to reject that. Look...

"Tv corrupts completely so be careful what you watch.

The less tv you watch, the smarter you become, you begin to see the effects almost immediately. No longer are you bombarded to buy one gadget or the other, you no longer have to hear about all the nasty disease that may never afflict you, but which is used to scare you to buy more and more insurance, you will no longer be bombarded by something you don't need, but which is advertised to you as indispensable. If you want to watch tv, fine but make sure to not stay too long otherwise you'll be hypnotized like pavlovs dogs and become insatiable for everything with the side effect being that you go deeper in debt for things you don't need with the result that you become over-dependent on your boss for employment. If you don't borrow money for consumption, you'll be free to live your life anyhow you want, you'll be able to quit your job and do whatever you do well and enjoy. Think about it, the less someone tells you what you need to make you happy, the easier it becomes, to find what truly makes you happy so if happiness is your goal in life, start by taking responsibility for your desires, actions, and creativity, and don't get caught in the productivity trap, it'll ruin you bad, humans are naturally creative and that's what you really should be doing, creating rather than producing stuff others created. The ball is in your court but the lesser your demands on life, the more you enjoy what life freely offers you, without money and without price. In the final analysis, the best things in life are free so grab a seat, stop and smell the roses once every while and enjoy the numerous free bounties of life, from a walk in the park, to relaxation at the beach which by the way, are all incredibly free."

(sorry to say don't try this advice, as a walk around your neighborhood or park may be dangerous to your health.);)

http://www.iraqwar.r...d=41098&lang=en

<All of this is starting to unravel and the internet is an excellent vehicle to do the unraveling. The media whores only print what they are told to.>

I know that. I call them the snake.

"take the next step.....

rather than just refusing to watch bogus news....why not start to boycott the products advertised during these news broadcasts. We all know the media that distort the truth so why allow them to make money by advertising. A few quick emails to the advertisers to let them know that a boycott campaign is about to start may get some attention. Another Item...In The Guardian newspaper today there is a story about the U.S. government confessing to the hiring of actors posing as journalists praising George W. Bush. How low can you go!" (same source)

<I could go on forever about the social engineering that exists in society and people aren't even aware of it. They think they are making their own decisions. "Hmmm... the government oughta do something about that!">

That's the bad lion, but the goverment could do something good for once, no? Otherwise, what do we need it for?

<Daycares teach the children how to socialize. They don't allow inappropriate behavior. They must be caring and sharing. All that compulsory sharing does, is teach the child that he can own nothing. Nothing is his. And enforced caring is what one feigns for favor. The enforcement of this behavior makes a child feel evil if he does not want to share or does not like someone for some reason and doesn't care about him. He has no choice to share with whom he cares for. Forcing him to share with someone whom he has no connection with is more child molestation than anything else.>

Long stretch of the word, but I would include in the definition the preying on children by junk food companies.

<We must be able to observe. I see the crumbling of a civilization. What arises out of it, who knows? Maybe nothing. I am an optimist though and I think there are enough people who can still think and act to pull something out of the ashes. Those waiting for the government to make decisions for them will be doing just that - a lot of waiting.>

I think we can tame the beast, can't we?

<Governments are, as I say, the foxes den and must be held under tight rein. >

Foxes (the politicians), hyenas (who do the dirty work for the lion), snakes (the media), parrots (who repeat the same lies), roaches (bureaucrats in Kafka) and other pests...;)
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#2235 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 24 March 2004 - 01:38 AM

Doquichote; ****Foxes, hyenas, snakes, parrots (who repeat the same lies) and other pests...***

donquichote, only frog will tell you truth. Frog is canary.


What can sick frogs teach you about new and resurgent diseases in human populations and other species of wildlife?


In recent decades, amphibian populations around the world have experienced dramatic declines, with some species showing high rates of deformities and others simply disappearing. What is causing this widespread mortality? The human-induced climate change can explain many of the losses. Amphibians seem to be particularly sensitive to changes in the environment, such as chemicals and climate change, making them sentinel species in our 21st century world
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#2236 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 24 March 2004 - 01:54 AM

To be or not to be?
This is question, which UN in the next few days has to answer itself.
It would be interesting to see if the international community will act with honor and dignity
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#2237 Pliny

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Posted 24 March 2004 - 03:06 AM

Haven't seen Bader for awhile?

Donq,

Your quote is correct about TV. However, we have the choice to not watch it and I watch very little of it. Advertisers pay obscene amounts of money to producers in television so not watching it will result in no sales to advertisers. No sponsors means no support for and cancellation of unwatched shows. Perhaps we are already a world of fools?

I will say that TV is now not just a medium of entertainment, as it started out to be, but one of social engineering. We are supposed to accept a lot of "politically correct" ideals. They are promoted and the media tends to be biased towards political correctness with shows about "alternative lifestyles" and other politically correct "nice-isms". This tells me that what is on TV is not there because demand is driving it.

Children are vulnerable but one cannot "shield them from the effects of folly" completely or they will not be prepared for life.
Remember the old native story of why the grandfather did not stop his young grandson when he saw him pick up a glowing coal from the campfire and blister his hand. The old native said, "He will not do it again." and he was right.

Chidren of course need protection but what kind of people take advantage of children. Only fools? Hmm....Those advertisers are definitely not as wise as they would have others think nor are the parents who don't explain the mechanism of advertising.

I don't believe in boycotts because there could be a valid use or need for a product and someone else is deciding for you whether or not you should have it.

Woj,

The "American Scientist"???? Wha,ha ha ha!!
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#2238 Bader

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Posted 24 March 2004 - 12:12 PM

Guinness Book Of Recods.

Computer has been in for service.

Where do I start?

Economic system not balancing (time is an important factor in economic cycles, I wasnt excluding time), I couldnt see your point Pliny in saying what I said wasnt logical. A further "proof" it doesnt balance (over economic cycles) is that it cant pay the debt on the cycle. Prime Example everyone should be conscious of is the US 7 Trillion debt. Ayone like to try and balance that, Central Asian and middle East Oil not included! (thats for the zBritish to steal).

50% taxes means a lot of debt. Just servicing the interest like the US? Time will tell and tell heavily.

I'm with Pliny re Kibbutz and the family.
The difference between Amish and Kibbutz is the family v community. The Kibbutz is a soviet model is it not. I think that one could compare it to a corporate model, which brings me to the point that govt intervention and corporate intervention in govt ( as by Rockefeller for reasons given) are more in common
as govts are very much subject to bankers so the liberterian approach is a little incomplete.
A classic example of corporate influence on the public is what DonQ opposes- tv and ads. How much does the govt control the
US news for example or intervene?
Championing the Child is a subtle ploy, while it is naturally rated very highly but the subtlty is undermining the family to get at the child. Totalitarianism angles for the child- the next generation,
to put roots down for the revolution, while the older ones educated by past systems with values not wanted (here is the UN), Nazi and Communists, Catholic Church all the same here in
imposing a dominant role of the system hierachy over the parents.
The family is first, for the benefit of the child.
Research in Australia showed early learning centres/kindy's etc
were places children developed social problems which carried on through their lives.

I got your point the first time Pliny re the issue of cooperation and competition - govt. I raised points in another dimention.
I agree with you.

Woj the pointI made re Putin was in guest. Thus the Bush crusade, shadowing the UN- no disidents allowed because that
is the cause of terrorism- everyone must be subject to the same social engineering to bring world "peace".
Thanks for the info on Plato, I was right years ago it does still remind me of Mao China, and we are supposed to look up to his thinking, mind you Marx is highly esteemed in western universities.
The British Museum is where Marx used to study, I wonder if he is steal there.
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#2239 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 24 March 2004 - 12:23 PM

When Cat is dead, Cat is alive. TIt is the best answer on David R. Hoffman, Legal Editor of PRAVDA.Ru article ***** America: what else is there to "market"?-"*****

Generally, it is all true with some omission of Monica Levinsky skirt and Clinton war against Yugoslavia. This omission is particularly painful because we are on Slavic and we are on also Orthodox site.

Voltaire also never lost actuality with his *****It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong****. So where is the problem ? - in timing. :)

This article with some small corrections would fit everywhere for ages. It is nothing new.
Today is different problem. Possibility of Death of International, Democratic Institution. UN.
We are all waiting on International Institution to take stance, if it will not, it is dead even not knowing about it. :mad:

Pliny; Sorry that you don
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#2240 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 24 March 2004 - 01:46 PM

Why we should cry other 9/11 when US is responsible for

Centuries of Culture Vanish in Kosovo City?
- Bishop Atanasije Jevtic dusted ashes away from the base of the fresco in the 14th-century cathedral gutted during recent Albanian mob violence in Kosovo

Orthodox Christian Serbs and symbols of their culture and history were targeted throughout Kosovo in violence last week.
. In all, 366 homes were destroyed and 41 churches burned.

US supported mob specifically targeted churches, the very symbols of Orthodox Christian Serbs,. US bombed a 78-days Serbia to give ethnic Albanian Serbian land.
The churches of Kosovo, the province which is considered hallowed ground and the birthplace of Serbian identity. Kosovo was the site of an epic battle between Serbs and Turks in 1389.
Among the province's many treasures was the Holy Virgin of Ljevis Cathedral. Albanian mob transformed the brick structure into a gutted hulk.
"In France there is Notre Dame ... but for us that was the Holy Virgin of Ljevis Cathedral."
Father Sava said that Serbs who remained in Prizren after the war have left for good now ....
use some intercepts from shttp://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=518&ncid=732&e=6&u=/ap/20040324/ap_on_re_eu/kosovo_charred_churches
Americans in US base in Bond Steel fortification in Kosovo don
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