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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#2241 donquijote

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Posted 24 March 2004 - 01:48 PM

Hi all, welcome back Bader, I thought the lion had sent a laser beam on your computer.;)

Anyways, I just added this new strategy against Terrorism. See if you like it.

Part III

Yet another strategy would be to declare "no lion" zones/countries. In other words, these areas wouldn't be ruled by the "law of the jungle" and there would be SOCIAL JUSTICE and DEMOCRACY for all, and there should be no alliance of any kind or even diplomatic relations with any lion. Such zones wouldn't represent a legitimate target for either violent monkeys or lions, and should deter any violence on the little people. But as the last resort, they can be armed like the Swiss and be trained to resist any type of predator...

more...

http://webspawner.co...rs/donquijote17
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#2242 Pliny

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Posted 24 March 2004 - 05:12 PM

Welcome back Bader!

I have rather limited time today so will have to be brief.

>>> A further "proof" it doesnt balance (over economic cycles) is that it cant pay the debt on the cycle.<<<

The debt is a circumstance of government overspending. You have to look earlier in time before there was deficit financing and the central bank which was the end of a market without intervention. Previous to that there were times of intervention with tariffs and wars but not like there is now.
I think it is the fear of facing any corrections in the market that brings about intervention but the intervention is usually more detrimental.

>>>Championing the Child is a subtle ploy, <<<

Loved that one!

Woj,

>>>It it the right that British Museum is still standing when English bombed Slavs sacred places? .<<<

Short answer; No.

Donq,

I'll have to peruse your new strategy against terrorism a little more before comment.

Must Run!!
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#2243 donquijote

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Posted 24 March 2004 - 06:45 PM

<donquichote, only frog will tell you truth. Frog is canary.


What can sick frogs teach you about new and resurgent diseases in human populations and other species of wildlife? >

Thanks. We always learnig new and interesting stuff from you.

So we can safely say: Who killed the frog? The lion did...;)
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#2244 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 24 March 2004 - 06:51 PM

donquichote; I saw on http://www.yahoo.com the best and new strategy against terrorism. See if you like it.;
****** Muppets Bringing Peace to the Middle East******

Pliny; I love your answer. :)
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#2245 donquijote

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Posted 24 March 2004 - 06:53 PM

<]To be or not to be?
This is question, which UN in the next few days has to answer itself.
It would be interesting to see if the international community will act with honor and dignity -.. >

Honor and diginity? This is the law of the jungle, boy...;)

I think we better say nowadays: To Kill or Not To Kill.

"In this new era the United States has added some new items to its export portfolio v Kill the weak people, rob their resources, curb the freedom of the Press so nobody questions your aggressions and crimes, and kill the civil liberties and go back to slavery and colonialism. It is time that the American people should ponder the key issue that what is important to them i.e. a better World for all, or a World plagued by violence, wars, bloodshed and international bullies."

http://webspawner.co...rs/donquijote35
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#2246 Bader

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Posted 24 March 2004 - 07:14 PM

Kosovo is the Palestine of Europe.
The Kosovo Serbs are now Palestinians. Driven from their homes and land, not for Albanians, but for the internationalists plan of a
new world. There is usually more than one reason things happen
which makes it harder to see through.

Your Lion-free country DonQ is Switzerland, but it is being
slowly corroded from within. That idea is confronting not taming the lion. Trying to tame the lion is not an issue, cant be done.

We are talking about totally different things, I think Pliny.
Deficit budgets are what debt (corporate world) does to govt, which is why the economic theory doesnt work, because it doesnt balance out over time, as claimed the hole is filled with debt
(deficit) which is why govt is made mad and uncontrollable by the electorate.
The free-market is a fraud like the banking system and "democracy" all through the money power and illuminati
laws and policy. The state/govt has thus been subordinated to
the the international corporates, so it is pointless denouncing govt without simultaneously denouncing the corporate free market and the banks.
Free market policy supposedly shrunk govt, but increased it power and taxes. Only those who believe what they see on the news is decieved.
Saw a news item from the BBC the other day on a site. On the page was a little box for readers to ask questions about a certain issue, not important, but the questions would be put to a certain
person in the Royal Institute of International Affairs. Thats the organisation that Kissinger belongs to and got his knighthood through. These are the internationalists whom cause people like Woj to hate the British. These are the guys who steal more than
relics. Lion media country. These guys are more influential on society than govt. They influence the political parties which the public have no control over.
So much for the beat-up on govts. Makes the lion smile and sleep soundly.
Govt are there to pass illuminati laws and protect corporate interests. How else can laws be passed? The libertarians have never addressed that. A panel of select cororates like Bush has surrounded himself with? See they have the nation both ways.
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#2247 donquijote

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Posted 24 March 2004 - 07:35 PM

<I'm with Pliny re Kibbutz and the family.
The difference between Amish and Kibbutz is the family v community. The Kibbutz is a soviet model is it not. >

Howdy Bader
Families sometimes suck. Some in my family are lions, some are parrots who repeat what they hear, and worse vote for the lion. I've found a lot of comfort and solidarity from friends and total stranger though. So to me, community is better, while for some it may be the other way around.

How about Amish coops for religious, family oriented people, and Kibbutz for non religious, community oriented people?

But kibbutz predate Russian revolution and have more to do with anarchist ideas (Kropotkin's coops) than State-run kolkhoz.

"The authors develop a model of strategic work interactions in collective enterprises explaining the following observation: the Israeli kibbutz, in which net collective output is distributed equally, has been an economic success, while the Soviet kolkhoz, in which net output traditionally was divided according to relative work input, has been a failure. In contrast, the conventional Cournot-Nash theory of collective enterprises predicts superoptimal output in the kolkhoz, while in the kibbutz, the free-fider problem is predicted to lead to suboptimal effort. Their theory predicts Pareto optimal work effort in the kibbutz and suboptimal effort in the kolkhoz."

http://econpapers.hh...Ap_3A686-99.htm
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#2248 Bader

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Posted 25 March 2004 - 12:44 AM

Howdy DonQ,

As I have said in the past, my greatest interest in coops is the
basic principle that they work on which can be beneficial (the
principles) in society in many different ways.
Naturally the Lion and the foxes, and monkeys will not like it
either because essentially the Increment of Association which the
Lion and sub-leeches feed off, is denied to them. Meaning they should get off their wallets and do some honest work instead of
taking the cream off everyone elses work and leaving them to
struggle on slave-wage against the debt machine.

Family v community: Essentially this is the option of how children are brought up, either the family unit is the basic building block of society, which socialism doesnt like and western govts have undermined- intellectually/academically through liberal-left
philosophy/humanism and through economic policy (mainly of the right) which Pliny would associate only with Govt but it is also international banking policy.
In a kibbutz the members of your family you dont like may have
input into how your children are influenced. In the family
situation as where you now live they dont. You would have to go to another kibbutz because of relatives.

That was great material you posted re the contrast between the
Israeli kibbutz and the Russian.
I note that when the free-market approach is used - rewards for
the biggest input and no carrying anyone ( a more selfish
individualistic approach as opposed to a true community of accepting all as inputing into the coop) it was less successful.
This is the same principle the free market and Libertarians claim
is the more successful principle and will fail for the same reason.
When community is divisive and thus counter-community the lesser mortals are not appreciated and become second class citizens, so how can community succeed under subtle class
regimes?
It has always amused me how these free market parrots want to
reduce the incomes of the lesser mortals and yet they are too one eyed to see they are merely expecting their economy to prosper off paupers, how dumb is that.
See the principle they believe that the industry pays the money the worker will then clear the manufactured goods is not respected at all. They undermine their own deceptions where ever they can, then blame govt and all the people who dont work,
that they laid off to increase profits.
If the financial managers of a kibbutz took over as minister of finance where he would want to balance things he would cause an uproar and get dropped like a hot potato.

One of the great things about the coop (I am reluctant to use the word Kibbutz) is that the world of the community is more natural
as it is closer to the natural world and retains a better balance between the material/technology and nature and the food is
healthy not destroyed to make marketable produce for profits and for global distribution which is why a lot of goodness is destroyed to produce a product that will be frozen and stored
and moved several times over weeks sometimes rather than fresh
local unadulterated natural products.
Besides there shouldnt be a debt system driving all this. The money
ticket system within the coop community and even inter- community
would be a simple part of the distribution/accounting system and nothing like the debt money system which is totally uneccessary
apart from criminal exploitation.
The coop model can be expanded to any level/size so that a whole nation can enjoy the increment of association, not an elite,
and the incement of knowledge and technology, and the cultural inheritance- that which has built up over many generations which all are inheriters off, which is not recognised honored nor included in accounting/economics and should be, not selective and just those who had more "input".
No debt, no poverty, less crime and so on.
Anyhow regards "input", those who we traditionally think have the greatest input are involved in the greatest destruction of many things. Just let you and I sit ona judgement panel anytime
there is a revolution and the top brains, fianciers, business,
indutrialist etc etc apply for elite quotas out of the annual profits.
We will have a team of valuers calculating the social, environmental etc damage. They might be in for shock to learn of their huge deficit they owe society.
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#2249 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 25 March 2004 - 01:20 AM

Kibbuts, Coops or any form of education are only the form of conditioning;
CONTROLING WHAT HAPPENS. Controlling what happens is the dream a of majority of statesmen .
Generally students of social study became familiar with many experiences involving a rats who respond similarly to human beings to conditioning.
Rats in crowded space or bad nourished are very aggressive to each other. This knowledge was used for example in US invasion on Yugoslavia. Before planed invasion US implemented economic sanctions to make sure that declining living conditions will increase animosity between Albanian and Serbs.
Of course if US would be truly interested in solving the ethnic problems , US would implement economic help.
In Iraq was different situation. In contrary to US expectation for revolti in case of sanction in Iraq, US failed. Religion might help in Iraq to overcome rat nature of human beings.
Generally we would say that people who cannot be conditioned for the successful respond are drug addicts. Enslaved by addiction they are immune for the social conditioning. :)
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#2250 donquijote

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Posted 25 March 2004 - 04:55 AM

<Your Lion-free country DonQ is Switzerland, but it is being
slowly corroded from within. That idea is confronting not taming the lion. Trying to tame the lion is not an issue, cant be done.>

I believe so, but anyways don't do like the monkey in the story who got carried away into dressing as a lion. The lion only accepts another lion like partner.
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#2251 donquijote

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Posted 25 March 2004 - 05:35 AM

<As I have said in the past, my greatest interest in coops is the
basic principle that they work on which can be beneficial (the
principles) in society in many different ways.>

Right, for the people in them, and for the workers outside who get a better treatment because the lion fears their defection.

<Naturally the Lion and the foxes, and monkeys will not like it
either because essentially the Increment of Association which the
Lion and sub-leeches feed off, is denied to them. Meaning they should get off their wallets and do some honest work instead of
taking the cream off everyone elses work and leaving them to
struggle on slave-wage against the debt machine.>

I know, they hate competition. You never hear much about coops even though it's so obvious.

<In a kibbutz the members of your family you dont like may have
input into how your children are influenced. In the family
situation as where you now live they dont. You would have to go to another kibbutz because of relatives. >

Not a chance they would join the kibbutz, and that would be fine because I'd have plenty of like-minded friends.

<When community is divisive and thus counter-community the lesser mortals are not appreciated and become second class citizens, so how can community succeed under subtle class
regimes?>

Yeap, divisive societies would create skeptical people who wouldn't have a stake in giving their best performance. Perhaps that's the case of blacks in America.

<One of the great things about the coop (I am reluctant to use the word Kibbutz) >

It's OK, I don't like it either, but we can certainly learn from their mistakes and successes. I would change a few things, and I'd make them more fun places to be at. In other words, better PR geared toward the young and idealist.

<The coop model can be expanded to any level/size so that a whole nation can enjoy the increment of association, not an elite,
and the incement of knowledge and technology, and the cultural inheritance- that which has built up over many generations which all are inheriters off, which is not recognised honored nor included in accounting/economics and should be, not selective and just those who had more "input".>

It makes sense. But nothing set, we can try one way, then the other, or simply experiment simultaniously. This system is not set, the way Marxism was, but flexible and correctible.

<No debt, no poverty, less crime and so on.
Anyhow regards "input", those who we traditionally think have the greatest input are involved in the greatest destruction of many things. Just let you and I sit ona judgement panel anytime
there is a revolution and the top brains, fianciers, business,
indutrialist etc etc apply for elite quotas out of the annual profits.
We will have a team of valuers calculating the social, environmental etc damage. They might be in for shock to learn of their huge deficit they owe society. >

I couldn't think of a better image than those predators at the top of the food chain, who claim the sheep owe them their protection. The Owl sees only predators eating the little animals.;)
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#2252 donquijote

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Posted 25 March 2004 - 06:05 AM

there's a lot of interenting stuff on the changes taking place at kibbutz, some good some bad...

4. Differential Recompense for Work: The profit term "consideration for value" is understood as the granting of a non-equal monetary reward for communal jobs and tasks within the employment structure of the kibbutz. Until now all kibbutz members received identical allowances without regard to the amount, type or quality of their work. Various proposals for change in this area have been put into effect, thus implementing certain proposals that vitiate equality among members' allowances, and create differences in their standard of living. One proposal concerns the creation of a connection between the number of days of work a member puts in and the allowance received (implemented in 11% of kibbutzim according to Getz, 1996). A second proposal calls for giving a special recompense to those who undertake disagreeable tasks (item 3 above). Another proposal concerns the giving of a differential wage to members according to their work, or at least the introduction of a differential component in the allowance according to the contribution to the kibbutz; this proposal has been implemented in 6% of kibbutzim (Getz, 1996).

http://www.utoronto....n1/v1n1palg.htm
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#2253 donquijote

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Posted 25 March 2004 - 06:20 AM

<Kibbuts, Coops or any form of education are only the form of conditioning; >

I don't see coops as social engineering. Quite the opposite, both politically and economically the individual must participate in decision making. When you got a boss though, you better follow orders...or else.;)
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#2254 donquijote

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Posted 25 March 2004 - 06:54 AM

Well, the Amish, they don't chip in with the lion. Is it an example for the right wing? And how is it that their example is not followed by the libertarians?

And is the kibbutz its counterpart for the left? And what's stopping us? Why is it that we talk so much, without following through? Is it the lack of a clear vision?

This libertarian article proposes that the lack of such a vision may impair any such society. Or perhaps only the lion stands on the way. They pacified the beast, but can we?;)

<<<Which people in America today don-t serve in the military, pay no social security taxes, homeschool their children, and generally have convinced the federal government to leave them the hell alone? The Amish, in communities scattered throughout the U.S. and Canada, live in a state as close to property-based anarchy as you-re likely to find in the Western world.

As the federal government ballooned during the 20th-century, the Amish immediately recognized it as a threat to their unique way of life. In his A History of the Amish, Steven Nolt recounts their growing opposition to the expanding welfare state.

For the Amish, the reality of the welfare state caused serious conflict. The "better life" toward which the system strove was not at all like the Amish ideal. Government-directed programs seemed to destroy community-based mutual aid. Church-centered care and extended family responsibility tended to become irrelevant in the face of public intervention and activity. Moreover, the welfare state-s promises of upward social and economic mobility were not important goals for the Amish. Since the mid-1950s, confrontation between the Amish and the government-s many public service programs have occurred often. Ultimately, the Amish have been rather successful in limiting the state-s encroaching tentacles of power and influence. But the Amish right to care for themselves has not been an easy privilege to gain. The Amish story proved to be one small chapter in the larger U. S. civil rights movement of the time. (Nolt, 270)

Through a combination of social pressure and non-violent civil disobedience the Amish have successfully maintained a distance between themselves and the seemingly omnipresent State.

What-s Liberty for, Anyway?

So, what do the Amish have that enables them to successfully resist the encroachment of state power into their lives? I would suggest that they-ve been successful precisely because they didn-t set out to oppose the state. The Amish have what some philosophers call a "thick" conception of the good life. That is, they have a very definite and detailed vision of the kind of community they want to live in and raise their children in. Because they have this vision, it was very clear to them when the government began to threaten their way of life. A definite way of life, embedded in concrete practice, history, and community, and not devotion to abstract libertarian theory, gives the Amish the inspiration they need to resist the seduction of the state-s false promises of security and welfare.>>>

http://www.anti-stat...?article_id=283
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#2255 Pliny

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Posted 25 March 2004 - 07:01 AM

As you all know I prefer the free-market to any devised or contrived economic theory to date. It cannot be discounted as a failure as it has served civilization for thousands of years.

The fact we are in a global economy, although touted as cause for re-evaluation, does not change the basics of economics.

The commune,co-op or Kibbutz or whatever the latest term will always fail, beyond the most rudimentary of forms, unless forced. Once the force of the structure is eased collapse is imminent and a reversion to natural trade for mutual benefit will occur.

I am surprised Bader that you accept the results of a study clearly supporting a model that the authors are obviously biased for and whereas socialism is heavily promoted by our social engineers. The study was interesting only in the fact that it coalesces with the promotion of socialistic ideals.

We have not been, since the creation of the World bank and IMF a world that is free. We are economic slaves, if you will.

I am aware that international bankers control governments. I blame governments for selling out and it is wholly within the understanding of their nature that they would do just that - sell out to the corporate banker for economic favour. The central bank, fiat currency, fractional reserve banking are all products of the International banker who has manged to steal the wealth of the world from under everyone's noses. If you think the free market creates inefficiencies and inequities well it wasn't as bad as it will get under the World Bank and the IMF. Talk about greed and corruption. I find it difficult to understand how the free-market gets blamed for the failings in the economy and more and more intervention is the hew and cry when a market economy has not existed for the last fifty years.

Yes there is a 7 trillion dollar US Federal Debt. Guess who gets to pay it back? The future generations. The children of the future have already been sold into slavery and with the advent of socialistic policies worldwide the chains are tightening. The government will then protect and shield you, not just from offensive advertising, but from seeing any kind of truth.

Guess what? The lion, fox, hyena, monkey, parrot and all the little animals all live within each and everyone of us. Being civilized, and as long as we remain so, we control our behavior to be socially acceptable. Some more successfully than others. It is social scientists that tell us we are just a jumble of electro-chemical reactive responses and these plus our genes are more the cause of our behavior than our will. I suspect from that, that somewhere in the near future we will all need to take at least one of the latest in behavior modification drugs so that we can be civil according to what is dictated by the State.

You are not supposed to see who is the proxy for our "democratic" governments because there isn't supposed to be one. We are supposed to think we have choice and are making the decisions and most do think just that. I could not convince anyone in my country we live in a socialist society here. They are free in their estimation. They will not realize until they are deemed undesirable and refused the benefits of their social programs or thrown crumbs to appease them that they are not.

No. Governments alone are bad enough but under the influence of corporate international bankers they are merciless. Terrorism from our own governments is the greater fear today. The biggest crime in the world has not been the stolen wealth, it is the creation of dependency of citizens on their governments for their sustenance and it's continued promotion as the supplier of all that is good.
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#2256 english

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Posted 25 March 2004 - 07:19 AM

POLICE REPORT- URGENT- please download http://www.equalwage...oliceReport.txt

Attached Files


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#2257 donquijote

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Posted 25 March 2004 - 07:30 AM

<The commune,co-op or Kibbutz or whatever the latest term will always fail, beyond the most rudimentary of forms, unless forced. Once the force of the structure is eased collapse is imminent and a reversion to natural trade for mutual benefit will occur. >

Wait a minute, I just published this article that the Amish coops--being more productive with low tech than comparative high tech agriculture--do work, and so the kibbutz. They DO work. Are you contradicting reality?

<The government will then protect and shield you, not just from offensive advertising, but from seeing any kind of truth.>

You don't believe in the Good Lion (Jesus) Bad Lion (Satan) dichotomy? Wouldn't the government ever be able to do something good, say banning commercial on children TV, while allowing free exchange of information? Wouldn't the opposite of what we got now possible?

<Guess what? The lion, fox, hyena, monkey, parrot and all the little animals all live within each and everyone of us. Being civilized, and as long as we remain so, we control our behavior to be socially acceptable. Some more successfully than others. It is social scientists that tell us we are just a jumble of electro-chemical reactive responses and these plus our genes are more the cause of our behavior than our will. I suspect from that, that somewhere in the near future we will all need to take at least one of the latest in behavior modification drugs so that we can be civil according to what is dictated by the State.>

I believed some libertarians claimed the goverment was a den of some bad characters...

"an ideological revolution that shows people the state for what it is: a glorified den of thieves and killers." (source above)

<I could not convince anyone in my country we live in a socialist society here. >

They easily believe they live in a jungle though. It's about choosing the right words.;)

<No. Governments alone are bad enough but under the influence of corporate international bankers they are merciless. Terrorism from our own governments is the greater fear today. The biggest crime in the world has not been the stolen wealth, it is the creation of dependency of citizens on their governments for their sustenance and it's continued promotion as the supplier of all that is good. >

That's very clever on the part of the lion: Create a water well he controls. But some say it's an act of kindness out of him. Others say though they better build their own water well.
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#2258 donquijote

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Posted 25 March 2004 - 07:36 AM

<POLICE REPORT- URGENT- please download>

Man, that sounds bad. You think they are following you?;)
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#2259 Bader

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Posted 25 March 2004 - 07:41 AM

Can anyone name a competitor who attended the Olympics unconditioned?
Can any name a engineer who makes bridges without
conditioning?
No man is a an island and given the sentitivity Woj indicates
we can come back to the choice of who does the conditioning/
upbringing/educating of OUR children? Community, state or family. Part of the answer is who you can trust.
The pack instinct will impose conditioing on members, even if
the system doesnt and most systems do even if just a code of ethics or purpose for which the group unite.
So one needs to be specific rather than just say social conditioning.
Our social conditioning by us on this thread if we can speak of it is to instill a defence against social conditioning by the lion, fox etc.

The Increment of Asociation:
the output/result of enterpise is great than the sum of the indivdual parts/input. this is a scientific fact that the Lion has kept out of the education system for obvious reasons.
Once people realize that they can be more successful working with other than on their own (generally speaking) then society would have developed the coop enterpise by its benefits rather
than look for work for someone else as people do in the main.
So the purpose of socialism and the free market both promoted
by the same Don King of internationalism, as we read recently about the Rockefellers, then the citizens are kept dependant and bled by drip-feed by debt and taxes.
When I say the principles of the coop this is what I am talking about avoiding- being bled individually. We are social creatures
and the propensity the contribute collectively outside of a
political ideaology is natural. So while I do believe coops could have been a major feature of society but for social conditioning, I am not indicating that it should be the basis of
our economy and certainly not promoting the concept of a summer camp style all year round through out life living in a military type community. (kibbutz)
I am supporting the free choice of people cooping on any basis they like to coop on and utilizing their resourses for themsleves
not some blood suckers and in the process provide for the wider society with its produce. Neither the banker not the state should be dominant and indeed are required to be, so goodbye capitalism and communism. Remember one is: man preying on
man while the other is the other way around.

What the Amish saw coming is exactly what Pliny pointed out a little way back and it has been spoken up against from time to time in the media in this country and partly to support the
free market ideology which the libertarians support. This is something I agree with the Liberts and the principle of freedom and people being in control of their lives as much as poss/pract
but the Ayn Rand stuff is out of balance to the opposite extreme to communism. Anyway when the left and right extremes move apart evetually they come together back to back around the other side of their worlds so there is no difference between the faceless bureaucrat of the state and the corp.

Your point Dong that the Amish people didnt set out to oppose the state is a significant factor. They didnt fight the lion directly nor tried to tame the Lion but wisely and circumspectly outmanuvered as far as possible to repain in peace.
But the Lion didnt care because people laughed at them anyway,
no threat of a social revolution there. But given the mess the worlds in politically, socially and economically and environemtally
they can truly say we played no part in it. kibbutz included in this regard. If the power grid went down on these guys like in NY they would probably light the candles and get the guitars out
and have a great time.
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#2260 donquijote

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Posted 25 March 2004 - 08:15 AM

<Can anyone name a competitor who attended the Olympics unconditioned?
Can any name a engineer who makes bridges without
conditioning?
No man is a an island and given the sentitivity Woj indicates
we can come back to the choice of who does the conditioning/
upbringing/educating of OUR children? Community, state or family. Part of the answer is who you can trust.>

Exactly. I'd have rather had my daughter be educated by any other than her family. She's been raised in the ways of her grandma, who was herself educated in the ways of her grandma. So my 11 years old daughter is getting some 19th century education, taught to stay indoor and watch Walt Disney.

<So while I do believe coops could have been a major feature of society but for social conditioning, I am not indicating that it should be the basis of
our economy>

As many as people want, no more no less. But remember we are also speaking of the Mondragon coops. They are unique in being industrial and are very successful. PEOPLE WANT TO HAVE CHOICES.

< and certainly not promoting the concept of a summer camp style all year round through out life living in a military type community. (kibbutz)>

It could be military to resist a lion, not to defend it.

<Your point Dong that the Amish people didnt set out to oppose the state is a significant factor. They didnt fight the lion directly nor tried to tame the Lion but wisely and circumspectly outmanuvered as far as possible to repain in peace.>

We can learn some of that too. The vision part is already taken care of as we got the literature and people love it.

<But the Lion didnt care because people laughed at them anyway,
no threat of a social revolution there. But given the mess the worlds in politically, socially and economically and environemtally
they can truly say we played no part in it. kibbutz included in this regard. If the power grid went down on these guys like in NY they would probably light the candles and get the guitars out
and have a great time. >

The lion sees no significant competition in these monkeys, and they never made the stupid mistake of dressing like a lion.:)
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