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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#2261 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 25 March 2004 - 12:04 PM

*********Your point Dong that the Amish people didn
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#2262 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 25 March 2004 - 12:59 PM

donquichote; terrorism will be as long as it doesn
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#2263 donquijote

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Posted 25 March 2004 - 01:22 PM

<<<A movement called the Free State Project has registered some 3,100 people who would help choose a "candidate" state and move there in hopes of canceling laws against drugs, prostitution, guns and other individual liberties, while privatizing current state functions such as schools.

"Rather than change the whole nation it makes sense for all of us to gather in one place," said Elizabeth McKinstry, 33, of Hillsdale, Mich., the project's vice president.>>>

This what I mean, we need an state that would facilitate like-minded people to get together, and lead by example. No need for more complaining. Some would join the Libertarians, some the Kibbutz, some the Mondragon type coops--little room for the fox and no lion since everyone would find their own niche. And the decentralized state would take care of those behind, perhaps divided in cantons and communes according to their affiliation. Sometimes though a centralized democratic government like Scandinavia's would be more fitting. Probably Russia following the latter--having had a centralized regime--while America the former. See what I mean?;)

very interesting...

<<<Ten states are under consideration, all with under 1.5 million residents. Their goal is to get 20,000 people to sign up and move to that state. That's the number they say is needed to be in a politically influential position.

States under consideration are: Idaho, Montana, Alaska, Wyoming, North Dakota, South Dakota, New Hampshire, Maine, Delaware and Vermont. The project is the brainchild of Jason Sorens, 26, a doctoral candidate in political science at Yale University. 3,100 people have signed up so far. When they get 5,000 members, which they expect to happen by the end of the year, the group will vote on the state and members will have five years to move there.

Is this a new take on Woodstock Nation? We can remember an idea circulating shortly after that event that if 500,000 of the nation's hippies moved to Wyoming, they could take over the state. (Back then, word was that Wyoming only had 500,000 residents.) Idealistic and improbable? Sure. But it was also fun to contemplate.

Then there was the movie "Wild in the Streets," about a movement to stop anyone over 30 from holding office. We suspect these ideas come and go, but in these days of the internet, word spreads so fast and among so many that Free the State likely will entice enough people to sign up. Check out their website, it's quite well done and they obviously mean business. We wish them good luck.>>>

http://talkleft.com/...ves/002500.html
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#2264 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 25 March 2004 - 01:41 PM

********One may call it selective silence. I call it fascism.**** says Igor Motsnyi in http://english.pravd...347_Kosovo.html and I agree.
I go even further. I wish that all who accept situation when Serbs do not have right to live and practice their religion on their own land and should find themselves in similar situation.!:D
Whole world knows what is going on in Kosovo I
*********Sure, gays and lesbians have the right to get marriage and the right to be heard, US presidential candidates have the right to explain their views to the US and international public.
Serbs do not have right to live and practice their religion on their own land.******
NATO Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Sheffer called burning down Serbian churches and expelling Serbs from their homes where the lived for centuries "a very bad thing". His further message to Serbs was to be self-restrained and avoid any violence.
Jaap de Hoop Sheffer could have used stronger terms to describe the current situation in Kosovo but why should he?
Who cares about Serbs? Serbs are mentally sick. Just read Tim Judah"s books.

For the period between the 17th and the 19th March more than 20 Orthodox churches and monasteries were set on fire. Some of them were built in the 14th century and protected by UNESCO. More than 3 000 (three thousand) Serbs had to leave their homes.
. No one seems to be disgusted by the fact that for the past several days thousands of Serbs were expelled from their homeland . An average American is more concerned about same-sex marriage than about burning Orthodox churches. An average British is more interested in Kylie Minogue-Oliver Martinez relationship than in thousands of Serbian refugees.
Nowadays there are just ethnic clashes between "the majority Muslim Albanians and the Orthodox Christian Serbs" as Reuters say.
This is just fascism, mere fascism, no more, no less. If you say the others are inferior just because they belong to a particular nation it is fascism. If no one is going to do anything about current Kosovo crisis it means they deny Serbs the very basic human rights: the right to human dignity and the right to life just because they are Serbs.
.....NATO military intervention was inevitable. He admitted some "collateral damage" had been caused to the country but said that it had been necessary to prevent further harm and stop humanitarian catastrophe.
Looks like just very few of us are appalled at the images of Serbs leaving their homes and blazing Serbian churches. The rest of the world does not want to see these images or does not want to believe them. They are ignoring the truth.
One may call it selective silence. I call it fascism. *********
I pray to God to let all of them who accept Serbian situation in Kosovo, the similar situation in their own countries, on their own land and to see ruin of their churches.
I would like to see Vatican change in ruin as orthodox churches.
I woud like to see UN members running for their life, and I think that I am right , I Will see it. .

:D
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#2265 Pliny

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Posted 25 March 2004 - 06:09 PM

You guys must all live on the other side of the world!!

I get up in the morning.and there are lots of posts to catch up on.

>>>Wait a minute, I just published this article that the Amish coops--being more productive with low tech than comparative high tech agriculture--do work, and so the kibbutz. They DO work. Are you contradicting reality?<<<

I do not contradict reality. They work because they are agreed upon to work and disagreement is ostracized. They have not changed in so many centuries. The Soviet Union worked for 70 years as well. There was no unemployment, no homeless, no large drug problem, no crime. The problem was they could not ostracize disagreement that all of these things existed.

The Amish are happy the way they are and will not change. Do you rate it as successful to live that way? They are productive and basically honest people with a tight set of standards and morals. They have no problems with "alternative lifestyles". There simply is no alternative lifestyle. There is also no progress, not that our civilization can be today called progress.

The one thing that can be said about them is they are independent. Most of us would probably not survive the
loss of electricity. We are dependent, not only on government and business but each other as well.

So does that mean we should all adopt the Amish model? It would certainly save us from any exploitation by our fellows. But we would have to be exclusive, not inclusive. Anyone disagreeing would have to be excluded and I'd bet the same amount of Amish would exist. They would not tolerate sloth or welfare and your life is in the hands of God not the doctor. so take a more than superficial look at their existence. Yes, they are free from the folly of western civilization as most of us know it but I would not idolize their existence, as hard working and productive as they are. I do not condemn them, either for they do not intend harm. As a species, however, we cannot remain forever in a time warp.

Woj

*********Sure, gays and lesbians have the right to get marriage and the right to be heard, US presidential candidates have the right to explain their views to the US and international public.
Serbs do not have right to live and practice their religion on their own land.******

It is an odd world we live in but not so odd when you understand the machinations of those who would be our masters.

Bader,
Social engineering has the intent and purpose of developing our choices and molding our decisions to a model. It is true we all try to educate to a certain model or ideal but our choices and decisions should be our own and our ability to think should not be blunted to fit the model.

Gotta get going now
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#2266 Bader

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Posted 25 March 2004 - 07:54 PM

Interesting that we have the comments about Amishes by Pliny after DonQ report of a young intellectual from Yale who probably hasnt held a job in the real world, freshly filled with political science from the industry that produces the leaders of the world
fast destroying itself.
As Woj pointed out the world around Amishville may be turned to ashes, what then Pliny.
I agree we shouldnt be superficial but fifty years ago people would just smile at their quaint middle world ways but they have a future, can the rest of the world say that. Our food and water and medicine is poisoned. Our media is poisoned. We slave to pay debt and we are deluded to think that improving technology means better life. These contrasts didnt exist fifty years ago.
What their leaders said fifty years ago is coming true.
Not everyone can live like them but as DonQ keeps saying there are various ways people can form communities to order, go to it.
Which is why he is excited by the youngman from Yale. I would be more interested in people who are older and learnt to forget what the universities have conditioned them to believe.
Personally I would have preferreed to see a state protest at the
Federal Animal usurping the authority of the states.

THe issue DonQ about defying the authority/challenging the Lion
is well covered in Tupper Saussys book Rulers of Evil which I have recommened in the past, on line reading, tuppersaussy.com
as well as exposes the illuminati/vatican clutches on the US from way back.

The ethnic cleansing in Kosovo doesnt warrant NATO intervention WOJ because its anti-Serb, anti-Eastern Orthodox. They came in and bombed serbs previously for the same allegations when it as
partly lies, now its only true and one sided its just passing news.
The Middle East, Iraq, Afghanistan, Jugoslavia, much of africa all cancer zones and expanding, if you think of the globe as a human body. At some point the world will surrender to the Mad Doctor
the UN who had Iraq under its treatment for 12 years.
Iraq went to the doctor with a sore head (Hussein) the Dr cut both legs and arms off. Iraqs dont feel their headache anymore.
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#2267 donquijote

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 12:44 AM

*********Sure, gays and lesbians have the right to get marriage and the right to be heard, US presidential candidates have the right to explain their views to the US and international public.
Serbs do not have right to live and practice their religion on their own land.******

That's hypocrisy on their part, my friend. They live life ignoring INJUSTICE but it'll get to them, it'll get to them. Perhaps they abhor freedom...

"The world is divided into two camps: all who abhor freedom, because they only want it for themselves, are in one; those who love freedom, and want it for all, are in another"
-Jose Marti (1853-95)

Think about it...;)
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#2268 donquijote

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 01:01 AM

<The Amish are happy the way they are and will not change. Do you rate it as successful to live that way? They are productive and basically honest people with a tight set of standards and morals. They have no problems with "alternative lifestyles". There simply is no alternative lifestyle. There is also no progress, not that our civilization can be today called progress.>

Howdy Pliny
I understand, but as the "call on libertarians" post above, they have a clear vision of what the good life is--and they live it. You can have a different vision and still live it, and that's what we are talking about. Maybe our Utopias--yours and mine being different--will be adapted to real life in many ways, but the important thing is we all don't have to put up with the life imposed by the lion. We live in a world created by the lion and for the lions, and I don't like what I see. THIS IS DICTATORSHIP.:mad:
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#2269 donquijote

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 01:42 AM

<Not everyone can live like them but as DonQ keeps saying there are various ways people can form communities to order, go to it.>

Howdy Bader
You always get it.;)

Thinking of MARKET ANARCHISM or LIBERTARIANISM, it looks to me it's a jungle.;) But not one like we got now where the lion got the laws made for his own benefit and uses deceit--the "democracy" mask--but one where everybody agrees to it and has an equal chance. In other words, there's NO LIE. What you see is what you get. And if you make $20 bucks an hour, $5 won't go to feed the hungry stupid lion, and his stupid wars and projects.

Whether it works or not, it would probably have to be adapted to real life--just like kibbutz have--and issue some kind of parameters to follow: Legalized drugs? I can live with it--actually I think they should be regulated, not prohibited. No drivers license? They'll probably have to issue one. One gun on each home? If they do it like the Swiss, following training, and so on. I think Switzerland is a good model that can explored and developed further and is the closest we got to libertarianism. They must have their own space, for the lack of it can produce new McVeighs...;)

<Iraq went to the doctor with a sore head (Hussein) the Dr cut both legs and arms off. Iraqs dont feel their headache anymore.>

The patient got a problem? Then you kill him and take his organs. No more problem!!!:)
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#2270 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 01:50 AM

Bader; Most politicians want not only predict behavior, but strive to know how to control.
We can predict correlation between sunlight and plant grow, but sunlight alone is not enough. It needs necessary water and soil.

So it is not surprise that William Shocley Nobel Prize winner co-inventor of the transistor advocated and provided the necessary justification for Congress in 1924 to pass immigration law restricting immigration from various countries. It concluded that Alpine and Nordic countries of Europe sent their better racial stock.
Mediterranean and Eastern Europe were biologically inferior racial stock.
So fact that US support killing the Serbs is the result of soil and water of American racists. In 1924 Shocley recommended voluntary sterilization, today US with their base in Bond Steel in Kosovo silently wait for Serbian death.
donquichote; I know that Serbs death is very funny for you , but Roman Empire altered in Roman Empire of German Nation . Think about it. :)
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#2271 donquijote

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 02:05 AM

<<<The State and War

The apotheosis of State power is war. In war the State's force is not hidden or implicit, it is vividly on display. War creates a hell on earth, a nightmare of destruction on an otherwise unimaginable scale. No matter how much hatred people may sometimes feel for other groups of people, it's difficult to conceive why nations have chosen so often to go to war. The calculation for the ruling class may be different from that of the people. War often brings the State more power, by drawing more people under the control of a particular State. But war can enhance State power even in the absence of conquest. (Losing a war, of course, can topple a ruling class, so warmaking is a gamble, but the payoff is good enough to attract gamblers.)>>>

It's so true. And YES--it was written by the libertarians. They know where the lion is. But do they offer a solution for all?

http://www.libertari....org/ex-11.html

Their emphasis on the MARKET can be as valid as the emphasis on COOPERATION, just like Yin and Yang. There shall be NO ONE SIZE FITS ALL.

I believe the new system can work something like this: kibbutz style coops on the left, Mondragon type coops--a workers' capitalism--on the center, and the Libertarians on the right. Then an State that offers a SAFETY NET to those falling outside and being the arbiter of the whole CONFEDERATION, not very much unlike Switzerland.

Where is the Fox gonna hide? I don't see much room for him...;)
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#2272 donquijote

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 02:15 AM

"I have lived inside the monster and know its entrails."
-Jose Marti

<I know that Serbs death is very funny for you , but Roman Empire altered in Roman Empire of German Nation . Think about it. :) >

What are you talking about Pliny? The smiley is not offensive in any way. Just think of the message I quoted, and you'll see how much it can predict that the problem with the Serbs is people in the West who abhor liberty because they only want it for themselves. Either you love freedom for all, or you hate it.;)

Jose Marti was a Cuban Humanist who died fighting the Spanish and was very much aware in the 19th-century of the lion to come.

<<<In a nation as divided as Cuba, only one man, Jose Marti, a poet and freedom hero, has been able to unite all factions. In his short life, Marti struggled against the dual oppressing forces of Spain and the U.S. to gain independence for his island nation while upholding his beliefs in liberty, freedom and greatness of the human spirit.


"Like stones rolling down hills, fair ideas reach their objectives despite all obstacles and barriers. It may be possible to speed or hinder them, but impossible to stop them."

"Liberty is the right of every man to be honest, to think and to speak without hypocrisy....A man who obeys a bad government is not an honest man."

"One just principle from the depths of a cave is more powerful than an army."

"Men of action, above all those whose actions are guided by love, live forever. Other famous men, those of much talk and few deeds, soon evaporate."

A fervent believer in Cuban independence, Marti was against the often proposed annexation of Cuba to the U.S. Marti's own beliefs reflected the dysfunctional love-hate relationship between Cuba and its "monstrous" northern neighbor. As a thinker he was enamoured with the American love of freedom and its image as the land of opportunity. But the reality of Washington's own imperial designs on Cuba made him think of the United States as the "turbulent and brutal North." In an unfinished letter to a friend found after his death he spoke of risking his life to stop the U.S. taking control of Cuba.


"I have lived inside the monster and know its entrails."

"Just as he who gives his life to serve a great idea is admirable, he who avails himself of a great idea to serve his personal hopes of glory and power is abominable, even if he too risks his life. To give one's life is a right only when one gives it unselfishly.">>>

http://www.myhero.co...sp?hero=j_marti
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#2273 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 02:35 AM

donquichote; Jose Martin and Clinton

In*** Use of Human Beings,*** Norbert Weiner defined control as a the sending messages.
Researches at the Yerkes Primate Center in Georgia demonstrated a correlation between rank of status in social groups of monkeys and level of testosterone, the male gonadal hormone. Although several factors influence testosterone levels in males, those males with high social rank, have higher hormone levels.
This correlation opens the question of whether a leader becomes a leader because of his higher hormonal levels whether his testosterone rises after he becomes a leader. In experiment were changed the positions. The results were consisted; variations in status caused variations in male hormone levels.
So if you depose democratic leader his testosterone level falls, if you create a leader it raises. (Tom Gordon)
Anybody heard about any new Clinton romances lately?
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#2274 donquijote

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 03:22 AM

So we have fallen below the Law of the Jungle, for in it animals do not prey on the same species...:confused:

(Just go to Google, and see how many hits you get for the Law of the Jungle. That's what we are living under, and even children must get the story. Perhaps they can put pressure on their parents and society.)

<<<Creating art in arid no man's land

AL KARAMA, Jordan (UNHCR) v The victim's naked reddish body lies on a black background. His face is contorted with pain and disbelief while a black crow standing on his forehead watches two hawk-headed men stick their cutting claws into their prey's flesh, one plunging his head to devour the victim's heart, the other opening his hooked beak ready to bite greedily at the man's amputated arm.

"It is an expression of very hard feelings," says the artist, Azad, an Iranian Kurd who has spent 24 of his 29 years in refugee camps. "It is my own view of the times we are living in. Times when Man does to his brother things wild animals do not do to each other. According to the law of the jungle, animals do not eat the flesh of their same species. But in our world, the so-called humans unscrupulously devour their brothers.">>>

And few even hear about this. Perhaps not newsworthy...:(

<<<Human bones scattered on arid red sand, a skinny naked child burying his face into the dust in a desperate search for food, tell all about the famines that devastated the Horn of Africa in the past years. "It is the work of an African refugee. I am sure he saw many children die of hunger before his eyes, maybe even his own," says Bassem.>>>

http://www.noticias....nid=20741&src=0
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#2275 donquijote

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 03:50 AM

<<<in the Palestinian segments, the producers try to teach children to respect others with differences, without specifically referring to other religions or nationalities, namely Jews and Israelis.

"We tried to get out of the Israeli-Palestinian model. We want [kids] to see they are part of a larger world," Kuttab said.>>>

Woj brought this up, the Muppets in the Middle East. This particular sentence emphasizes my proposal of PLAYING DOWN NATIONALISM AND RELIGION.

Muppets on a Mideast peace mission
By Ellis Shuman March 23, 2004

The creators of "Sesame Street" have teamed up with Israeli, Palestinian and Jordanian producers in a new attempt to promote peace and tolerance.

In the early 1980s, a Hebrew edition with local characters, and starring hedgehog Kippy Kipod (pictured), aired successfully in Israel.

The creators of the Sesame Street children's program have teamed up with Israeli, Palestinian and Jordanian producers in a new attempt to promote peace and tolerance among the region's children.

http://web.israelins...re&enVersion=0
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#2276 donquijote

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 04:14 AM

"The answer is to move from the law of the jungle to the rule of international law"

OpenDemocracy: Just after the attacks in Madrid on 11 March, the Brigade of Abu Hafs was reported in a London-based Arabic paper to have asked: "
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#2277 Pliny

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 05:37 AM

Woj,

Here is an interesting article at www.eagleforum.org

Ohio Lesson Plan Pleases Parents, Irks Liberals.


Hi Donq,

"The answer is to move from the law of the jungle to the rule of international law"

As long as that international law did not come from a single governing body I would agree.

Your idea of keeping things small and locally managed sounds best. The States was a good idea until the federal government started overstepping it's mandate and usurping power from the States.
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#2278 Bader

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 07:34 AM

Keep it small and keep it simple,
every cell in the body is a complete unit, linked to others. Each cell needs to be healthy, then the organ (collective) is healthy.
We arent healthy if we are only outwardly healthy, which is the global disposition and will bring down world govt on us.
Healthy units (social) will attract non-healthy units to get healthy,
(this why DonQ promotes informal "competition" to search out better social units) but people have to be free to create healthy units and copy other healthy units to the extent they want to.
The Bush strong-arm tactics for global reform is as clumsy and disfunctiuonal is as Idi Amin. The UN sanctions on Iraq and the
murder of over half a million children makes Idi look like a granny
that is in the wrong occupation.
The answer isnt to move from the law of the jungle to the law of international power, at least in the jungle there are places to hide, groups/packs to run in for protection. The international Lion will centralise all information and surveilance and root out disidence. Why go from Lion To Mega-Lion? Which is what he has
in the pipeline and people have to be blind or asleep not to see it.
There can be no doubt about the conditioning of the planets
population regards globalisation thinking. It has been masterly done.
How do you counter an eye for an eye. Justice that works, prevents the first eye, otherwise you are asking how do you stop retaliation which is easily answered by saying prevent/ address the first crime. (who is going to address the crimes - ethnic cleansing against the Kosovo Serbs? the silence of the UN is deafening!)

The State and War:
"War can enhance State power even in the absence of ..."
Merge terrorism and war and the classic example is the Zionist State of Israel. it is their only road to the oil of Mid East/Central Asia. They could have accepted peacefully a sectioin of palestine
and lived peacefully as for centuries but no they had to do exactly what the Albanians are doing to Serbs. The Iraq invasion is based on the same strategy (long term), no evidence off any preparation to bring reasonable order.
Without the Cold W threat of Soviet influence in the Mid East and the hostility of the Arbas stired up the US wouldnt have been so
generously funding their exploitation.

I enjoyed Marti DonQ.

Woj: while I remember I wasnt guesting re Putin being a Christian.
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#2279 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 12:01 PM

donquichote; "The answer is to move from the law of the jungle to the rule of international law"
ha, ha ha.

"-it is allowed for them to kill our children, women, old men and youth in Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine and Kashmir and not for us to kill them?". How do you counter that logic of 'an eye for an eye'?
Answer is very obvious on example of Yugoslavia. The Serbs didn
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#2280 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 12:35 PM

donquichote ;
you left kibuutz subject without pointing to us the kibbutz alumni .
You know, we judge the apple tree by the apples not by the tree. :)
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