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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#2281 donquijote

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 12:57 PM

"The answer is to move from the law of the jungle to the rule of international law"

<As long as that international law did not come from a single governing body I would agree.

Your idea of keeping things small and locally managed sounds best. The States was a good idea until the federal government started overstepping it's mandate and usurping power from the States.>

OK, so long as there's JUSTICE for everyone, it should be OK. It would be a world without so much hypocrisy.

But how should you deal with others stepping on others? How would you deal with the lion stepping out of line? Who would determine that he should be eliminated?
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#2282 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 01:08 PM

Pliny;******Ohio Lesson Plan Pleases Parents, Irks Liberals.**


I think that it is a proof that parent family might be not the best atmosphere for children to grow.
Narrow minded parents are not necessary the best advisers for education of their children.
No the genetic material but rather social level might bring more profound change in the way the people think and what they think.
. When one selects for himself the ******Power of positive nonthinking ****** it is o.k., but tragedy starts when it
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#2283 donquijote

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 01:16 PM

<you left kibuutz subject without pointing to us the kibbutz alumni .
You know, we judge the apple tree by the apples not by the tree. :) >

I believe kibbutz is good side of Jews. Most of all, THEY ARE NOT PREYING ON ANYONE, so there's neither internal lion nor external lion. Where things went wrong is when the Jews state--I published something to the effect before--became a nationalistic state. So any solution would admit Arabs right to citizenship and property.

This article is awesome...

<<<In 1910, the first kibbutz was established. Several followed in the next years. As time passed, more immigrants came to Israel, mostly all first passing through the kibbutzim. As Israel's population grew, so did the number of kibbutzim. In 1948, with UN backing, Israel declared itself a nation. A socialist government was set up which subsidized and furthered the growth of kibbutz communities.

Traditionally, the kibbutzim of Israel promoted a lifestyle based on complete shared ownership of all property, production of commodities, and profits.7 Everyone owned everything, or no one owned anything?depending on how you looked at it. The socialist ethic and communal lifestyle practiced on the kibbutzim helped to created strong community ties amongst its members. People lived quite minimally and simply. Food was served and eaten together, children were raised together, and people worked side by side creating a community. One could live with the peace of mind knowing that their work directly sustained and nurtured them. The fruits of labor were enjoyed by all who lived and worked on the kibbutz.

Many scholars have categorized the kibbutz as the closest thing to utopia, the perfect society. In libraries, books written about the kibbutz were found next to those philosophizing about utopia. However, life did not always progress smoothly for the kibbutz inhabitants and disaster often occurred. Writings from early kibbutz farms often dictated the grimmest of living situations. Starvation, lack of supplies, unpredictable weather conditions, bankruptcy, and war often posed great obstacles for kibbutz survival. The early kibbutz inhabitants were so dedicated to the physical and mental aspects of their lifestyles that they persevered, relying on the support of the community in times of need, and giving to it in times of prosperity. It is this dynamic of community that allowed for the survival of the kibbutz.

The last two decades have brought even more challenges and threats to the kibbutz movement. External and internal economic pressures and increased Western influences have encouraged many kibbutzim to ignore their traditional ideologies and undergo major restructuring.>>>

http://www.overlande...e_kibbutz.shtml
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#2284 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 01:20 PM

Thursday's veto is the United States' 79th
in a long string of vetoes regarding Israel.
The United States used its veto power to quash a U.N. Security Council resolution condemning Israel for killing Hamas leader Ahmed Yassin in a missile strike. The resolution had also condemned the practice of killing suspected militants without trial
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#2285 Pliny

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Posted 26 March 2004 - 05:29 PM

>>>Narrow minded parents are not necessary the best advisers for education of their children. <<<

I wonder how parents get narrow-minded?

Donq,

Sorry, I am not buying into the Utopia. It doesn't sound too good.
It lacks emotion and mostly love. Caring and sharing are sometimes just reasons for someone, especially governments, to extort whatever they can from others. All in the name of compassion of course.

If not owning anything and owning everything is part of Utopia it is no wonder it fails. Some will eat more than others and it is only a matter of time before annimosities develop. What about a child's favorite toy that he loses and finds in another's room?
Does he demand it back and face the wrath of others or does he just ask the other to share and say it is his turn now?

The biggest problem with a socialistic society is that inequalities exist naturally and the assignment of value is impossible, since it is an individual thing. The child who loves a toy and is forced to share it will learn to coldly use sharing as an excuse to purloin what he wants.

Of course if everybody owns everything and nothing the problem of theft is eliminated. I see no respect for others or property being encouraged and it is impossible. Common property soon deteriorates. There is the desire to use it but not the desire to look after it.

One, in the case of co-ops, must be like the Amish. Intolerant. Intolerant of outside and inside criticisms and no ability to change. Of course, in Utopia what can one criticze or want to change?
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#2286 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 27 March 2004 - 02:14 AM

donquichote; ********But how should you deal with others stepping on others? ****
Albanians in Kosovo are the Hitler implementation and Tito mistake. Albanians should never be on Holy Slavic land. :D Albanians have their own country and their presence is Kosovo is unlawful. When the Serbs under US pressure will decide on union with Russia, the Albanians will be exterminated with my blessing. :)
Different case is for example in case of Congo, where US is stepping on somebody else land and says..
****Thousands Mining Uranium Illegally in Congo.
Thousands of self-employed miners are pounding away at rocks and descending into makeshift mineshafts at Shinkolobwe, one of mineral-rich Congo's largest and oldest mines in the southeastern province of Katanga.******
In this case I bless the miners who use resources of their own country and I don
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#2287 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 27 March 2004 - 03:00 AM

Bader ; light in the tunnel
.Argentina and Brazil Join Forces to Tame the IMF: David DeRosa
, Argentina and Brazil have agreed to stand as one in future negotiations over loan conditions.
In effect, Brazil and Argentina are acting as if they have an entitlement to borrow billions of dollars from the IMF on terms of their choosing.
Earlier this month, Argentina successfully negotiated a $3.1 billion loan disbursement by threatening not to make a loan service payment . The Fund gave in; Argentina made the payment and the Fund promptly agreed to return the billions to Argentina.
What Argentina learned from that episode is that the IMF is a low-pain-threshold creditor when it comes to its clients threatening it with default. Now Argentina is trying to gain a tactical advantage over the IMF by combining forces with Brazil.
Seeking Exclusion
Rationalization came from Eduardo Suplicy, a senator from Lula's Workers' Party, who claimed the IMF's conditions ``discourage countries to invest in social programs.''
Debtors United :)
What's next? Perhaps a union of Latin American IMF clients? So if Uruguay, for example, needs a loan, the Fund has to sit down with several nations, such as Brazil and Argentina, to work out the terms?
http://www.bloomberg.com/
Immediately is noticeable that US didn
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#2288 donquijote

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Posted 27 March 2004 - 03:40 AM

>>>Narrow minded parents are not necessary the best advisers for education of their children. <<<

<Sorry, I am not buying into the Utopia. It doesn't sound too good.
It lacks emotion and mostly love. Caring and sharing are sometimes just reasons for someone, especially governments, to extort whatever they can from others. All in the name of compassion of course. >

Howdy Pliny
You are responding to Woj, not me, though I happen to side with him. But this is something personal. The type of upbringing I want for my chidren is as individual as the religion I profess, if any at all. I want CHOICES in this area too. Whether your child or mine get a better education is a problem appreciation. Beauty in the eye of the beholder.

<If not owning anything and owning everything is part of Utopia it is no wonder it fails. Some will eat more than others and it is only a matter of time before annimosities develop. What about a child's favorite toy that he loses and finds in another's room?
Does he demand it back and face the wrath of others or does he just ask the other to share and say it is his turn now?>

Who had a better society the American indians who shared things, or the greedy, gold worshipping Europeans? This too is a matter of appreciation.

<The biggest problem with a socialistic society is that inequalities exist naturally and the assignment of value is impossible, since it is an individual thing. The child who loves a toy and is forced to share it will learn to coldly use sharing as an excuse to purloin what he wants. >

Maybe it's not important who owns it, but the sharing itself. This too is another subject for appreciation.

<Of course if everybody owns everything and nothing the problem of theft is eliminated. I see no respect for others or property being encouraged and it is impossible. Common property soon deteriorates. There is the desire to use it but not the desire to look after it.>

State communism--sometimes called "state capitalism"--doesn't work. Voluntary association does, as the kibbutz show.

<One, in the case of co-ops, must be like the Amish. Intolerant. Intolerant of outside and inside criticisms and no ability to change. Of course, in Utopia what can one criticze or want to change?>

Who wants to change under capitalism? Not the ones who got any power. The jungle is self-perpetuating until it annihilates itself.:confused:

The kibbutz though ARE changing in response to pressure from American culture. Much to be regreted, because they should absolutely hold original practices of EQUAL PAYMENT FOR ALL, and ROTATION OF PERSONNEL. If you don't like it, you got the Mondragon coops or the Libertarian communes whatever, fair?;)

<<<The decision-making process is democracy in action
The kibbutz functions as a direct democracy. The general assembly of all its members formulates policy, elects officers, authorizes the kibbutz budget and approves new members. It serves not only as a decision-making body but also as a forum where members may express their opinions and views. Day-to-day affairs are handled by elected committees, which deal with areas such as housing, finance, production planning, health, and culture. The chairpersons of some of these committees, together with the secretary (who holds the top position in the kibbutz) form the kibbutz executive. The positions of secretary, treasurer and work coordinator are, as a rule, full-time, while other members serve on committees in addition to their regular jobs.

Kibbutz ideology made farmers out of city dwellers
For the founders, tilling the soil of their ancient homeland and transforming city dwellers into farmers was an ideology, not just a way to earn a livelihood. Over the years, kibbutz farmers made barren lands bloom, with field crops, orchards, poultry, dairy and fish farming, and - more recently - organic agriculture becoming the mainstays of their economy. Through a combination of hard work and advanced farming methods, they achieved remarkable results, accounting for a large percentage of Israel's agricultural output to this day.

The kibbutz economy has diversified:
Production activities of the kibbutzim are organized in several autonomous branches. While most of them are still in agriculture, today virtually all kibbutzim have also expanded into various kinds of industry. Although manufacturing a wide range of products, from fashion clothing to irrigation systems, the majority of kibbutz industry is concentrated in three main branches: metal work, plastics and processed foods. Most industrial facilities are rather small, with less than a hundred workers. In many areas, kibbutzim have pooled their resources, establishing regional enterprises such as cotton gins and poultry-packing plants, as well as providing a gamut of services ranging from computer data compilation to joint purchasing and marketing. The contribution of the kibbutzim to the country's production, both in agriculture (33 percent of farm produce) and in industry (6.3 percent of manufactured goods) is far greater than their share of the population (2.5 percent). In recent years, increasing numbers of kibbutzim have become centers for tourism, with recreational facilities such as guest houses, swimming pools, horseback riding, tennis courts, museums, exotic animal farms and water parks for Israelis and foreign visitors alike. As Israel's population grew and urban centers expanded, some kibbutzim found themselves virtually suburbs of cities. Due to this proximity, many of them now offer services to the public such as commercial laundries, catering, factory outlet stores and child care, including summer camps.

Commitment to work is an integral part of kibbutz ideology
Work is a value in and of itself, the concept of the dignity of labor elevating the most menial job, with no special status, material or otherwise, attached to any task. Members are assigned to positions for varying lengths of time, while routine functions such as kitchen and dining hall duty are performed on a rotation basis. Each economic branch is headed by an elected administrator who is replaced every 2-3 years. An economic coordinator is responsible for organizing the work of the different branches and for implementing production and investment plans. Although management positions are increasingly professionalized, the kibbutzim have adopted various methods of administration and organization to adapt their economic structure to the needs of the times without losing a sense of mutual responsibility and equality of work. Women are equal participants in the labor force, with jobs in all parts of the kibbutz open to them. However, in contrast to kibbutz women two generations ago who sought to prove their worth by doing "men's work," the majority today are reluctant to become involved in agriculture and industry, preferring jobs in education, health and other services. Older members receive suitable work assignments according to their health and stamina. Most members work in the kibbutz itself. However, some are employed in regional kibbutz enterprises, a few are sent by the kibbutz to perform educational and political functions under the aegis of its national movement, and others pursue their own special talent or profession outside the kibbutz framework. The income of these outside workers is turned over to the kibbutz. The occasional lack of personnel for factories, agricultural tasks, tourism services and other jobs necessitates hiring paid workers, although this practice is contrary to the kibbutz principle of self-reliance in labor. Many kibbutzim host young volunteers from Israel and abroad for periods of one month or longer in exchange for work, thus partially solving the dilemma of obtaining outside labor.

Children grow up with their peer group
Unlike former times when they lived in communal children's houses, children in the majority of kibbutzim today sleep at their parents' home until they reach high school age. However, most of their waking hours are still spent with their peers in facilities adapted specifically for each age group. At the same time, parents are becoming increasingly involved in their children's activities, and the family unit is gaining more importance in the structure of the kibbutz community. Thus the granddaughters of women who 75 years ago insisted on being released from domestic chores are now the leading force within the kibbutz for more parental involvement in the upbringing of young children and for allocating women more time at home with their families. Children grow up knowing the value and importance of work and that everyone must do their share. From kindergarten, the educational system emphasizes cooperation in daily life and, from the early school grades, youngsters are assigned duties and take decisions with regard to their peer group. Young children perform regular age-appropriate tasks, older children assume certain jobs in the kibbutz and, at high school level, they devote one full day each week to work in a branch of the kibbutz economy. Elementary schools are usually on the kibbutz premises, while older children attend a regional kibbutz high school serving several area kibbutzim, in order to experience a broader range of academic subjects and social contacts. At all age levels, accommodations are available for youngsters with special talents or needs. Some 40 percent of all kibbutz children return to settle on their kibbutz after army service. The majority of kibbutz members today grew up in the kibbutz and decided to build their life there.>>>

http://essenes.net/kib.html
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#2289 donquijote

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Posted 27 March 2004 - 04:07 AM

** I wonder how parents get narrow-minded? **
<State didn-t provide them chance for education. They were locked in their work, by capitalistic propaganda of material success,>

Exactly, State never meant to make them decision makers, just consumers. The only decision they are allowed to make is between Coca-Cola and Pepsi...

Which one would you choose, Woj?
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#2290 donquijote

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Posted 27 March 2004 - 04:58 AM

This article is awesome all around. It addresses consumerism, child-oriented commercialism, the failure of 20th century revolutions, and the NEED FOR THE ULTIMATE NONVIOLENT REVOLUTION. Long live the Revolution!!!

<<<Corporations, benefiting from two centuries of increasingly efficient means of production, flood the world with commodities. And once manufactured, they must be sold. William Burroughs, a radical American novelist, has charged that "The junk merchant doesn-t sell his product to the consumer, He sells the consumer to the product. He doesn-t improve and simplify his merchandise; he degrades and simplifies the client."3 If I read Burrough-s correctly, the idea of a self-made man is myth. We serve the advertisers and corporate magnates.

(snip)

The promise that scientific and technological achievement and material progress would benefit mankind has apparently failed. Something is missing. This void in the "American way" has resulted in startling exposures among various groups of Americans. Veterans from Korea, Vietnam, and the Persian Gulf War constitute 42% of all homeless people.7 Since 1960, the Veterans Administration reports that 100,000 Vietnam era veterans have committed suicidevand those are the bona-fide cases, let alone those who are slowly drinking themselves into oblivion or living off of pills dispensed from the system that used them and then discarded them.8 In a way we consume the troops like we do perishable goods. If our veterans don-t come home ready to celebrate the robust virtues of war, we-d rather honor them as dead and buried heroes than be forced to look at the shattered wrecks many of them actually are. Neither has economic output shielded children. A survey of the 26 wealthiest nations in the world reveals that 75% of child homicides occur in the United States.9 Last year parents at the John Cooper School in the Woodlands stepped in to break up a group of 5th graders who systematically excluded other children from their group if their daddy didn-t own one of the high-priced cars on their "list." Labor remains in a state of tension. The Houston Chronicle has reported that companies have rewritten the social contract between management and labor, with the result that high-level executives grow richer while downsizing and mergers lay off the workers.10 Ethnic groups suffer as well. One in every seven black males will experience incarceration at some point in his life.

Debate rages over the cause of these figures and trends. I suggest we look at how we set priorities. Too little emphasis is given to human needs. We also tend to ignore the delicate demands of an environment that we expect will sustain the human species forever. We give too much credence to the unchallenged axiom that what is good for business is good for everyone else. During the 1996 presidential campaign, the Dole-Kemp ticket proclaimed that the Republican Party leadership would double the size of the American economy in 15 years. No one challenged it. The public ostensibly accepts the theory that buying and consuming twice as much we will make us twice as happy. Acceptance of this supposition implies that we might be able to solve the problems of underdevelopment, poverty, and economic dislocation by doing more shopping!

Well, shopping won-t solve the transitional problems of the former Soviet Union, or raise the standard of living in Haiti, or eliminate ghettos in east Philadelphia. It won-t even make us happy. A study conducted in 1957 revealed that Americans, despite cold war anxieties, were happy. Forty years later, researchers asked the same questions to consumers. They found that despite a massive increase in material accumulation, people of 1997 showed substantially less enthusiasm for life. They felt locked in an endless cycle of making more to get more but with zero rewards for the soul. The rush for affluence had alienated--or separated them--from their favorite activities and from those family and friend relations they had held dearest.11 During the 1980-s a strange duality existed. The worship of wealth and the freemarket led many to idolize the Donald Trump-s and Ivan Boesky-s of America. At the same time, we sentimentally watched Little House on the Prairie. You might recall that Michael Landon-s daughter, Laura Engels, could store all her belongings in a trunk that she could slide under her bed. They appeared so happy and well adjusted to us. I wonder why?

The global consequences of our orgy-like rate of consumption affects more than the nuances of American culture. Global consumerism directly threatens the idea of a sustainable global community and environment. Paper and wood offer one index of consumption. The Average American consumes 618 pound of paper per year.12 An average of 2 football fields worth of timber disappears every minute to support global consumption. Only 20% of the world-s old growth forests remain. Oil and energy consumption constitutes another benchmark of consumerism. The United States consumes 25% of the world-s energy, but we consume 28% more than we actually generatevand we are only 5% of the world-s population.13 At current rates of consumption, known oil reserves will last about 170 years.14 That-s about 50 years younger than our nation is. Unfortunately, the rate of consumption is climbing. Our current habits will ultimately be unsustainable.

The root problem is that humans have become accustomed to relating to their external world through their jobs.15 Our jobs determine where we live, how much time we spend with our family and friends, how much time we devote to personal improvement, and how we view the world-s problems. We must change this way of thinking. You, members of Phi Theta Kappa, are the intellectuals who should raise awareness of these issues. Some futuristic thinkers believe that your generation will lead the anti-consumer revolt. The theory goes that in about 25 years, 15% of you will embark on a sort of revolution. This 15% will trigger a paradigm shift. You will see that life had become so saturated with things that existence had become nearly meaningless. But you will kindle the flame of revolution. Leaders like you will reject the Cornucopia of Plenty. You will push yourselves away from the mashed potatoes and yell, "I-ve had enough! I-m going to create instead of consume; I-m going to give instead of take; and I-m going to simplify life and restore it to the simple decency that is my birthright!" You guys will find the deepest meaning of life: to forge quality relationships with other people, with the environment, and within yourself. If you speak for the environment against the exploiter, if you speak on behalf of workers against the boss, if you defend the dispossessed and the downtrodden against the rich and powerful, you will never, ever go far wrong. Do this and your life will have fulfillment.

This cultural revolution will come from below, spread slowly through society, and hopefully alter some long-held values. Here are some things to think about now:

1. Consumerism has been basted on us layer by layer. We-ll have to peel back those layers. For example, Teenagers became market targets when the first surge of the baby-boom turned 14 in 1965. Perhaps we can start by eliminating children as corporate targets of sale first.

(snip)

I use the revolutionary model as the path to happiness and anti-consumerism in a qualified way. I am the first to admit that social and political revolutions of the 20th Century have uniformly failed to deliver promises. There are many reasons for that, but one significant one is that most revolutionaries have proven more interested in power than in reform. Your revolution will not be violent, of course. It will, however, have the drama equal to the sight of those 90 minutemen standing on the Green of Lexington in front of 220 British light infantrymen in 1775. It can capture all the hope represented when "Pancho" Francisco Villa-s "Division el Norte" rode into Mexico City in 1914 after the Battle of Torreon. It can be as momentous as the evening Lenin stepped on to the train platform in St. Petersburg while a band played "Le Marseilles" and "The Internationale." It can be as thrilling, as many students of 1959 viewed it, as the day Che Guevara and Fidel Castro marched arm-in-arm down the streets of Havana after their overthrow of Batista and the expropriation of the mafia-s gambling casinos and prostitution houses.

For the benefit of the revolutionaries and reactionaries out there alike I-ll conclude with the Cuban battle cry of 1959: "VENCEREMOS," loosely translated as: "Long live the Revolution!">>>

http://www.woodstock...eeches/ptk.html
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#2291 Bader

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Posted 27 March 2004 - 05:21 AM

actually means "no where". And if we take the expression "'beauty in the eye of the beholder", that's where utopia is. Nowhere/everywhere, let the individual choose, by rhe Law of DonQ.

"Narrowminded parents are not the best advisors for education of their children"

That sentence has a great variety of issues Woj, which is why we have all responded to it, so Its not only foxes that get everyone going.
narrowmindedness may not be the best at everything or anything except narrowmindedness. You seemed to have steriotyped the citizens of the capitalist world. In the capitalist world as in the socialist world parents in the main depend on the state education system and have no input what so ever. In the socialist world there is not private school option. But I dobt it makes much difference because the quality of teachers is the
difference rather than the quality of education. A higher percent
of students passing the same dumbing down education exams means nothing outside the delusion.
The "state doesnt provide them a chance for education" is an open statement about states, capitalist or socialist, so what are you into now anachism- anti-state? All states do.
And this connects with the statement you made a few posts back that politicians like predictability, so make them all dumb!
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#2292 Pliny

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Posted 27 March 2004 - 07:03 AM

>>>State communism--sometimes called "state capitalism"--doesn't work. Voluntary association does,<<<

Well Donq,

Voluntary association is key. Perhaps a "Utopia" (nowhere land)
could be achieved for everyone! How ever I find the constraints of a co-op, commune or Kibbutz, too unyielding to develop one.
It's sole concern seems to be the maintenance of the status quo and that is ultimately the membership's sole charge.

We have been living under communism since the forties.

The article you posted regarding the failure of "capitalism" is really not about capitalism at all. We have not seen capitalism for a half century. If it were only about consumerism, selling products
and making as much money as you can I would understand people's consternation. That is what it seems to be today but it is the bare bones of what is left of it.

It is a vibrant, challenging, ever-changing and always improving mode of economics. It would be today if it hadn't been taken over by the global elite and stripped of it's vitals. Socialism and socialists always define "capitalism" in these terms.

I agree with Bader, that the Ayn Rand point of view is a bit overboard and perhaps points out the human frailty of self-aggrandizement. If "Atlas Shrugged" was about capitalism then it rather, in my opinion, failed it. If it was about the overtaking of the means of production by government decree then it is a success. I think it accurately describes what occurs to production that is under the control and auspices of government and that is, eventual decay through incompetence, inefficiency, patronage and the lust for power.

DonQ,

I do not deny you and your associates the right to choose this lifestyle. I just don't see it as one to which I would subscribe.

I basically understand that you are trying to eliminate the negativities of life. The struggle, the failure, the inequities, the poverty, oppression, to smooth out the roller coaster ride and to bring decency to life through mutual understanding and respect. All worthy goals for which to aspire.

That is all we can do. I look at it a little differently. The struggles are challenges. The failures mean I tried and perhaps I will try again. The inequities define me. The poverty and oppression are yet other challenges. This is the stuff of life. Eliminate them and you eliminate a part of life. It is all in one's view of things.

The happiest people are not the idle rich, they are the people that have overcome the obstacles in their lives and make achievements.

When I get tired of the roller coaster, maybe I'll find a quiet little kibbutz somewhere.

Why does anyone want to climb the Matterhorn and risk his life or face failure? This to me is what life is. I would like to pursue my life
without obstacles being artificially placed in my way and I do not want that for others. Their goals and dreams are hard enough to attain without the oppression of our fellows. The artificial blocks are the most difficult to overcome and I believe at this point in time they will take an all-consuming effort on many people's part to remove them.
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#2293 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 27 March 2004 - 01:55 PM

I hope that it is not only tough talk, but acts will follow**** ..RUSSIA CONTINUES TOUGH TALK...
"the toughest measures [in] the fight with [ethnic Albanian] extremists should be taken, their organizational structures...liquidated, their disarmament [completed], and instigators and participants in anti-Serbian massacres...detained and punished,". "It is necessary to make the Albanian leaders of Kosovo strictly fulfill requirements of the UN Security Council" set down in 1999 in Resolution 1244, the diplomat added. He also called for the quick return of Serbs who fled during the recent violence and the repair of their homes and religious buildings. The text is aimed at projecting a mood of indignation, emphasizing that Moscow wants a central role in regional affairs. http://www.rferl.org...sline/4-see.asp
Slavs unite!:)
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#2294 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 27 March 2004 - 02:10 PM

News from supported by US, Rose revolution; Wave of popular exultation that ensured Saakashvili's January triumph has somewhat abated. GEORGIAN PRESIDENT Mikheil Saakashvili told a press conference in Tbilisi on 24 March SAYS HE DOES NOT NEED OPPOSITION REPRESENTATION IN PARLIAMENT...
http://www.rferl.org...sline/5-not.asp ha, ha ha.
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#2295 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 27 March 2004 - 02:35 PM

LONDON (Reuters) - Circumcised men are less likely to be infected with the virus that causes AIDS http://www.yahoo.com/.
I think , itt is the Racial statement. Correctly should be said; Eunuchs from any country of the world are AIDS risk free.
Sad but true.
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#2296 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 27 March 2004 - 02:42 PM

The reaction against US invasion to Iraq can be easily understood in the region only by looking at its recent history.

During the last two centuries, US troops invaded Cuba, Nicaragua, Guatemala, El Salvador, Haiti, Colombia, Grenada, Panama, took half of Mexico and toppled Presidents in Chile, Uruguay and Argentina.

Hernan Etchaleco
PRAVDA.Ru
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#2297 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 27 March 2004 - 02:56 PM

"Political corruption undermines the hopes for prosperity and stability of developing countries, and damages the global economy," said Transparency International chairman Peter Eigen.

Right?

Mohamed Suharto, Indonesia, 1967-98, 15 to 35 billion dollars is leading ruler with most money stolen
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#2298 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 27 March 2004 - 02:59 PM

donq; >>>State communism--sometimes called "state capitalism"--doesn't work. Voluntary association does,<<<

I think that seminaries are school of voluntaries associates and Stalin graduated in on of them in Giorgia and Dzierzynski in Poland. :P


Pliny; ********The struggles are challenges. The failures mean I tried and perhaps I will try again.*******

You are the blindly subject of mother Nature conditioning. :(
Rats behave in similar way.
In laboratory test the rats were e forced to swim in container.
Rats which they were before in similar situation and finally were rescued swim twice as long before they die in compare with rats who never before were subjected to such ordeal.
Mather nature is cynical with her conditioning. It is called hope. ha, ha ha. :)
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#2299 donquijote

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Posted 27 March 2004 - 03:23 PM

<Voluntary association is key. Perhaps a "Utopia" (nowhere land)
could be achieved for everyone! How ever I find the constraints of a co-op, commune or Kibbutz, too unyielding to develop one.
It's sole concern seems to be the maintenance of the status quo and that is ultimately the membership's sole charge.>

Howdy Pliny
I think the main concern of a kibbutz is to provide the "good life" without much stress. But I see other advantages to kibbutz...

-Say you want to travel around the world, or are the adventurous type, what better way than KIBBUTZ HOPPING? Nothing ties you up, not house, not job. I could picture myself doing that--at least for a while.

-In them there's no jungle: no boss, no drug pushing, no crime, no dangerous roads. I like that.

-I believe the kibbutz though are too concentrated on work. We need a shorter workday (6 hours) and more culutural activities and parties. Yes, parties. Perhaps because I go to a place where there's free admission to dancing in an open place and they have a band every evening. They figure most people buy something, but you don't have to. Many regulars--like me?--go and socialize and dance. These people couldn't care less about material success. Many lions--rich tourists whatever--sit around and watch us but never dance. It's like two different worlds. The kibbutz would be perfect for that , no? Say a conglomarate of 5 kibbutz throwing a party each every day. That to me is part of the "good life" too...;)

The option would be for us to stay home and watch TV like everybody else.

<We have been living under communism since the forties.>

That's for sure.

<The article you posted regarding the failure of "capitalism" is really not about capitalism at all. We have not seen capitalism for a half century. If it were only about consumerism, selling products
and making as much money as you can I would understand people's consternation. That is what it seems to be today but it is the bare bones of what is left of it.>

There got to be another reason for life other than shopping though. But you have a lot of pressure to make it to the top, or you are left down at the bottom of the food chain. Everytime the lion eats you when you are not one yourself. Where I live now, we got no place to park. The lion ignores our complaints and preys on us via tickets and towing. At work though, we have to please every wish of the lions, even the ones that are not expressed. Is this world made for the lion?

<I do not deny you and your associates the right to choose this lifestyle. I just don't see it as one to which I would subscribe.>

That's OK. You got CHOICES. Maybe I'd join your Utopia--for a while too. Perhaps the Mondragon coops--a workers' capitalism--is better than both kibbutz and libertarian communities. Who knows.

<I basically understand that you are trying to eliminate the negativities of life. The struggle, the failure, the inequities, the poverty, oppression, to smooth out the roller coaster ride and to bring decency to life through mutual understanding and respect. All worthy goals for which to aspire.>

Removing the obstacle or jungle may mean the difference between life and death for people in Africa or even in the ghetto. I do not believe "suffering is good for the spirit.";)

<When I get tired of the roller coaster, maybe I'll find a quiet little kibbutz somewhere.>

Maybe for travelling on the cheap.

<Why does anyone want to climb the Matterhorn and risk his life or face failure? This to me is what life is. I would like to pursue my life
without obstacles being artificially placed in my way and I do not want that for others. Their goals and dreams are hard enough to attain without the oppression of our fellows. The artificial blocks are the most difficult to overcome and I believe at this point in time they will take an all-consuming effort on many people's part to remove them. >

Why climb the Matterhorn if you are not into climbing? Don't make the people climb the mountain in order to survive. Keep the Olympics for a few super athletes, but don't make everyone compete to survive. We got to come out of the jungle...;)
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#2300 donquijote

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Posted 27 March 2004 - 04:58 PM

<<<the model for her idea was inspired by the actions of the extremely successful Mondragon credit union in the Basque region of Spain. ?What they did ... they moved from creating a single credit union to creating a whole economy.
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