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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#2301 Pliny

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Posted 27 March 2004 - 06:48 PM

And my friend what would a credit union invest in? I suggest it would be some capitalistic ventures. There is definitely no return in a Kibbutz!

There is lots that could be done to improve our lot but it is not being done and there is a reason for that. It is called oppression.
The fact of the matter is that wealth, or the basic necessities of life for that matter, cannot be created without all of us contributing to each other through trade and industry. The farmer provides food, the tailor clothes, the wood worker shelter and on and on. That is capitalism. The form you see today called capitalism is a bastardized mercantilist form which I too rail against.

When I say that, I feel like today's socialist, who claims that true socialism has never existed. In fact, it has, in it's purest form. No matter the good intentions of the proponents it will always deteriorate to what it has already existed as in the past.
The only reservation I have on saying that is, a greater understanding of ourselves could make it workable, but on second thought a greater understanding of ourselves would eliminate the need for such a societal structure to live under.

Your description of a kibbutz, with the parties and dancing sound like you dream of the life of the rich capitalist without having to actually achieve it. Sorry for that barb but, couldn't resist.
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#2302 Pliny

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Posted 27 March 2004 - 07:04 PM

>>>Rats which they were before in similar situation and finally were rescued swim twice as long before they die in compare with rats who never before were subjected to such ordeal. >>>

Yes! Take away all challenges in life and soon no one will be able to face any challenges.

I liked the Louis Brandeis quote.

Like my new signature?
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#2303 Bader

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Posted 27 March 2004 - 11:31 PM

Pliny ask Charles Dickens about your new signature.
Please Sir can I have another bowl of soup?
Please Sir, Mr Nike, can I have a raise of fifty cents a week to $10?

Both (left and right) pay the same Scrooge banker.

No debt, no taxes (no Lion)

American Indians shared everthing, (even food supplies and land?).
Like all tribal cultures they decimate themselves to such an extent that cultures that are growing in number because they stop decimating themselves, then move in and fill the empty spaces. The Middle east has been easy pickings because the
factional tribal Arabs. The catalist for the destruction of the Iraqi people were the perfumed rumped royal Kuwaitis! a paper kingdom created by oil companies.

You cant have democracy and state/group/collective (abstract)
elivated over the people (real world). The Swiss society is based on the family not the collective and their political units are small
enough to retain control and not too big that they loose it to an abstraction manipulated by an elite.
Policy either works towards will-to-power (submission to system/state etc) or towards will-to-freedom, where the individual
is sovereign (and socially responsible) and protected as such.
They are opposites. You cant have the collective as the parent of chidren and create democracy because the collective philosophy
puts the systems sovereignty above that of the individual.
The kibbutz can be democratically run just as a sports club but I refer to the national unit.

Burroughs: I agree we must change out way of thinking (conditioning etc) but he resorts to the same old thinking when he says If you speak for the environment (been captured by globalists), for the worker against the boss ( started way back in Marxs day ... etc, etc, all good basic helelian/Marxian dialectic divide and rule for the Lion.
The Revolutions were the work of Illuminists and international banker. The Lion never lets the people have the power or the money to do these things, even the rich havent moved a finger
and the poor untrained leaderless workers? give over!
The Right wing Spanish party goes to Iraq for the NWO, the opposition says enough we want to be there for the UN control of the NWO. Lion wins both ways. What choice also has the US got between George -who's minding the store-Bush and Kerry. Kerry will make superficial changes and probabaly set a date in the future for the UN to take over and manage what Israel and the US have set up there, and protect the global corps raping the place.
Descriptions of the mess the Lion has got the world in are a dime a dozen today. It is pointless designing new system to counter the symptims, get rid of the essential cause first and the world will naturally change for the better, otherwise we will go from the fryingpan into the fire.
Control money, control humans, politics, economics, information, education etc. Free it and you get what Nicola Cox is after-
instruments of economic EMPOWERMENT. One of the satisfaction fo the Kibbutzite has to be regardless of their disposition for community, is that they are in control of their life and can trust and understand what involves their whole life- which is fast disappearing in the so called west/developed world.
And we can do better than the kibbutz.
Empowerment: will-to-freedom or will-to-power? Thats what matters, thats what will determine the fruit on the tree, down stream, as Woj has said. People want the fruit, and arent educated about trees and what lion would allow such?

Woj: In your list of invasions/operation in others countries by the US you missed the British colonies in Nth America!
Your question: is political corruption the main problem of the developing countries and the global economy? Right or wrong?
My answer is wrong. Thats the Club of Rome hobbyhorse which is working towards the only answer is world govt to bring national politicians into order. Starts from the abstrct collective as communism, same as ministers of finance destroying standards of living to balance the books in a system that is
stacked against everyone. Same lion.
A lot of the money that ends up in Swiss bank accounts comes from the IMF, thats their bonus for selling their peoples future
industry to the Lion.
So it is great to see Brazil and Argentina acting together against the IMF- fifty one percent owned by "US" bankers. That might change soon to euro dominated. Which may simply be just a logo change on the sign out front and on the letterhead, if the Fed is predominantly European owned as one auther has stated.
The debt of nations is so great it is pointless pointing to a few hundred million syphoned off into Swiss Banks. If an elephant escaped from a zoo and did a lot of damage and a flea was living on the elephant would the headline news be - flea
runs amuck?

The Georgian development says a lot for the Soros foundation
bringing new light and hope to the world. Soros = sorows.

Pliny: we havent seen capitalism for 50 years.
That surprised me for one who appears to support the free-market which rubbished the pre-1980s world of Keynesian
socialist democracy and state driven economics.
Also the descriptives you gave socialism is becoming a feature of the global monolpolistic corporates who kill opposition so they dont have to be efficient above competition, plus they are also
policy/ideology driven much like politics (the politics of the market)
and they become steeped in arthritus and protection because they are run also by bureaucracies and human nature.
Rheteric and propoganda abound through professionals just the same. And they arent controlld by the shareholders anymore than politicians while they are able to buy politics.
One of the lies of market propoganda was that the private enterprise was going to be more efficient and everyone benefit.
They sacked the lower workers and moved the wages to the top,
nothing saved. Our Railway state owned was running at a profit
and now it has been privatised ten years the taxpayer is buying part back after subsidizing it. Our telephone system when privatised had the highest linecharges in the west and the top man was getting a million dollars a year (ten years ago).
Thats capitalism, exploiting opportunites, no reference to social justice. I only believe in free enterprize where your freedom is limited by someone elses, where there is limits to how some are free to exploit others- like the size of a prison cell.

The information about the Sth American countries reminds me of part of the result of the deregulating of the Australian banking system which removed the standard ten percent reserve to virtually limitless and foreign banks to set up shop and compete,
in the same limited fishbarrel. The existing banks to protect their future got busy and persuaded farmers to extend credit as much as possible, which was just soaking up what potential there was from the foreigners to threaten their future. Natuarlly there would have been a lot of activity from the farmers spending this
huge release of money which they didnt need and the political party that led the charge into the free market would have been
boasting to the media how the free market was booming the
economy. Well for every action there is a an opposite balancing reaction and the the market prices never takes notice of the financial needs of the borrower and so the farmer suddely become a victim of the squeeze that banks no put on them to repay all this extra mortgage on their property, which the bankers not the farmers wanted, and many a farmer lost all,
including their wives no doubt and lives to suicide. got to the point the bank managers were ringing up the wives during the day and putting pressure on them knowing the husmabd was out working, they wanted to push them off and sell for their money.
The bankers put themselves in that position of borowers defaulting so forcing sales was their answer, farmer dont like loosing all anymore than bankers. Eventually farmer got to the point where they formed a "coop" of supporter/victims and went
with friends to see the bank manager and they started to stand up to the the little lions and the managers lost their psychological
hitler edge when they faced more than one across his desk and the banks had to back down after telling them it couldnt be done.
Same lion just a different scale/level.
The IMF requires deposits from members and then the members borrow figures on paper that allow their economies to function.
The Sth American countries can do the same on their own computer programme. The only need for a deposit is the same as solicitors fidelity fund to cover defaults/underhandedness.
Individuals do much the same with green dollars. Global trade coops can do the same and forget the international bankers, just as nations.
The world needs a Martin Luther of the financial world. And the Vatican is still a global power- spiritual, fiancial and politcal with hundreds of millions in its fold so we cant expect absolute change
but opportunites of alternatives including ones with dancing and free music, right!
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#2304 Pliny

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Posted 28 March 2004 - 02:36 AM

>>>Pliny ask Charles Dickens about your new signature.
Please Sir can I have another bowl of soup?
Please Sir, Mr Nike, can I have a raise of fifty cents a week to $10?
<<<

Sorry, Bader. I don't understand your comment here. What do you mean?
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#2305 Bader

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Posted 28 March 2004 - 09:57 AM

Howdy Pliny,

trust, cooperation and compassion are frozen out by the dog eat dog-every man for himself free market society which hates taxes and big govt.
No denying taxes can be a spoiler in its own right.
People should also war on interest and debt since it is worse, but they dont because they can understand taxes but they have to work a lot harder to understand the money racket which is the cause of taxes anyway.
The difference is one is private and the other public, so it is an ideological issue not an economic issue as it is presented.
The two "please sirs" relate to the old and new free market
experiences.
In the US billions of super money has disappeared and Bush is cutting taxes. Trust and compassion have evapourated with the
funds while people in the likes of Enron, like tapeworms, find new hosts to live on.
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#2306 Bader

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Posted 28 March 2004 - 11:11 AM

Howdy DonQ:
In NZ credit unions which are more friendly than the commercial banks are governed by Treasury which determine what interest must be so they cannot undercut the banks- competition.
They dont have the power to create money but can only lend
from what is in savings as people think all banks do, so if people want to borrow at very low rates they then have to accept low returns on savings.
I have never used one but i expect that they are competing in the area of bank charges besides being locally owned and not foreign owned.
There is only one private bank in NZ not foreign owned and if you keep a minimum deposit of $5000 with them they make no bank charges. Bank charges have been going up steadily in recent years, in some areas 400%!, so no charges is a significant saving.
And banks have been shedding staff, closing branches through computerization!
Since banks will multiply the $5000 many times over and get interest back from just creating figures in accounts, there shouldnt be any charges anyway.
I would like to know how the Mondragon Credit Union/system worked. While the one in your post is still within the system they
have the right principle of creating facilities to serve not to bleed.
Banks create "money" as figures in accounts against our credit,
not their gold/holdings etc although naturally they need to have capital/assets likewise, but it runs on public/national credit and we dont get royalties from them for using our credit, we get into debt to them! So to democratize the system we can have a
national banking system that uses the nations credit just the same which is like a coop owned by all involved and there is no need to charge interest, merely a small service charge and repay principle.
Public spending like roads, hospitals etc which are assets doesnt require we all repay ourselves (as owners of the national credit authority) and the money issued to pay the contractors etc is cancelled when it comes back to the Authority as "money" is cancelled in the banks as it comes back to the banks. The public assets of course live on, contributing to the economy for decades and the quality of life. Foreign investment-debt and paying several times over through interest rates is a fraudulent racket.
We should be getting dividends from the public assets each year,
not foreigners, after all the nation and its economy, an economy of scale parallel to a kibbutz/coop are a business which the people not the govt own. There is no grounds to pay the govt taxes than the police protection money.
The govt should be going cap in hand to the people for approval
of their budget in order for the peoples national credit authority
to grant govt the money reguired for the budget.
There is no point in us lending the govt money because they would have to tax us to repay us.
Thats why there shouldnt be taxes either. The only people paying taxes should be foreigners/non citizens/toutrists, who havent been nationalized.
Money like oxygen and h2o should never be privately controlled
for the same and obvious reasons.
That is democracy. To actuate freedom we have to have means
and in modern society means is money. when people have means to be free they will vote with their money and keep alive all businesses, services, entertainment, kibbutzs, govts etc that are in demand by choice/need. (if the component resources are avialable). Then the Libertarians and the socialists will stop bitching and fighting each other and political parties will become obsolete because when the people have the means who needs bum promises from taxes that dont exist. The politicians will do what they are told because we are their bankers.
So the politicains of political parties like the banker will fight us
all the way to hell and back. Like Woj says they like us to be predictable. No one is more predictable than a slave.
Banks will not be obsolete, because people will still need accounts kept and saving made. They will be like credit unions,
no power to create money because that would create inflation,
given that the nations total budget needs will be met by the credit authority - not controlled by Govt!
Banks and finance companies will lend real money not figures on paper.
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#2307 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 28 March 2004 - 12:24 PM

Pliny/donq; ****Your description of a kibbutz, with the parties and dancing sound like you dream of the life of the rich capitalist without having to actually achieve it. Like my new signature?*******

In Poland socialism was the great cultural sponsor; , theaters, musical events on every levels were booming, general quality of life was much on higher level that is now. Now Poland was robbed by foreign capitalists, foreign Media and church.
As long government will follow IMF requirements and pay for keeping Polish soldiers in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan , Iraq , Kuwait, Bosnia against the will of Polish citizens, I don
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#2308 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 28 March 2004 - 01:00 PM

donq; ***** Terrorism
Hi all, welcome back Bader, I thought the lion had sent a laser beam on your computer. Anyways, I just added this new strategy against Terrorism. **********

I think I read better solution on Pravda.



ParadiseBirds http://engforum.prav...?threadid=64401
Personally I dont give a hoot who you "put in office".

Just get the goons out of worlds countries and stop stiring things uo so that USA can "move in" and scavange resources.

Pay for the resources like all other countries.


Magneto has a point. I will answer it from my point of view> Quote Bush: "You are either with us or against us."

Think about that quote and who it is from, and you tell me who stole the middle ground?

________ http://engforum.prav...64401__________


What about it donq?
BTW . I am still waiting on any name of your dancing kibbutz graduates
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#2309 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 28 March 2004 - 01:20 PM

Question.
The Manhattan Project's Taskmaster
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#2310 Pliny

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Posted 28 March 2004 - 06:38 PM

Woj,
>>> Now Poland was robbed by foreign capitalists, foreign Media and church. <<<

Poland and all nations have been robbed of their assets by the international corporate banking cartel - I don't believe it had to do with capitalism. If capitalism existed the wealth of all nations would be in the hands of the people. What has been left in the hands of the people are meaningless pieces of paper that in an instant can be valueless.

Bader,

>>>The difference is one is private and the other public, so it is an ideological issue not an economic issue as it is presented.
The two "please sirs" relate to the old and new free market
experiences.<<<

Public debt is quite different. It involves mortgaging the lives of future generations. Got to go but will comment further later.
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#2311 Bader

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Posted 28 March 2004 - 07:21 PM

The cold war could not be unless the Soviet Union was also a nuclear armed military power counter balancing the US, so called champion of the free world.
The preparations for the cold war were made by the meeting of the big three (Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin) in the latter part of the war. I accept the allegations that the Atomic bomb information was given to Moscow by the powers that B in the US.
Fuchs or no Fuchs making money on the side.
The Council of Foreign Relations which provide the key US players/planners, eg Kissinger, Bzrezinski etc, had a policy of balancing the two giant military forces without which there could not have been the cold war which has destabilized much of the world in preparation for the terrorist stage.
Given the power of Israel today which has come through the cold war, I expect they were able to penetrate both sides in preparation of the next stage in which they are becoming more
powerful and noticable.
The Zionist wanted to have the world ruled from Jerusalem,
where nuclear weapons were to be stockpiled under world disarmament. Nation armies are becoming world govt policeforce
without concent of the people.
Looks like a major incident in Palestine and possibly a huge death tole of palestininas and Israelis may be on the cards to bring in a
new development there and UN presense and a great plan for peace. Out of the ashes, like a great seance based on human sacrefice. Nothing new here. Peres has promised the Pope a
seat in Jeuralem, he will head the new world religion.
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#2312 Pliny

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Posted 28 March 2004 - 10:31 PM

>>>Looks like a major incident in Palestine and possibly a huge death tole of palestininas and Israelis may be on the cards<<<

A very plausible scenario. The loss of lives is not important to the cause.

How do governments finance things like - a cold war, a world war, an invasion in Iraq? Since the inception of the central bank it has been to borrow on the future production of the nations involved. The banks then have control of the future governments of those nations and those governments are to install a system that makes it impossible for anyone to amass any amount of wealth. The US is the last nation to fall and I believe it has just sold the farm. The idea now is to create the debt necessary and exhaust the current wealth for the banks to gain full control.

Then it is el cruncho time. When, as you say, the nations armies become the world police.

That appears to be the plan. It doesn't matter that Bush says he is going to cut taxes. The implementation of a medicare program will break the taxpayer and he is then dependent on it. so there will be no turning back. Just as in Canada.

Knowing that the global elite have been in control of things pretty much since the beginning of the 20th century. I find it difficult to understand how you can think capitalism is all that bad when it is the machine that drives the government? The government is like a huge vacuum that sucks as much energy out of the economy as it will bear and if it can think of other ways to attach itself, it will.
It regulates business, gets in bed with corporations, crushes whatever it perceives is a threat to it's position, is wasteful, inefficient, and any study of it's lack of service to the public is concluded to be due to insufficient resources which means higher taxes. Undoubtedly, the plan of the central bankers to bleed the wealth of nations into their hands.

The fiat currency we use, which is not money nor is it backed by money, is of no value. It can be exchanged for goods yes, and is being used for that purpose but it has no intrinsic value.

The paper dollars are not wealth, per se, and it's face value can be revoked at any time. The US Federal Reserve (Central Bank)is at the moment flooding the global economy with USD in exchange for goods. The debt of the nation and the people individually is rising at unprecedented levels.
The US has the largest trade surplus it has ever had. The countries trading their goods for American dollars are getting edgy
about their stockpile of dollars.

Economically, it appears, we are teetering on the edge, on a global level.

Almost time for the world police to step in.

This scenario could have been avoided if the USD were on the gold standard because then people would have wealth in their pockets instead of paper bills owed to the central bank. Also, no war would have been able to be started by creating money from nothing and increasing indebtedness to the banks.

Woj,

The signature is the comment or quote or whatever at the bottom of all of a persons posts, if he puts one there.
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#2313 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 01:25 AM

Pliny; ***** War would have been able to be started by creating money from nothing and increasing indebtedness to the banks.******
War is big money maker for country uninvolved directly in war.
For example USA in WWI, and partially for bigger part of WWII. Another example was also Swiss during WWII. Her neutrality was gold mining.
NEXT example UK and Argentina war; US supplied arms to both countries. BTW, it was illegal accordingly to NATO status, US and UK are both NATO members, and US as member of NATO had obligation to defend the UK.
Of course it didn
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#2314 Pliny

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 06:56 AM

>>>Pliny; ***** War would have been able to be started by creating money from nothing and increasing indebtedness to the banks.****** <<<

It would not be started so easily if govenrments did not have authority to go into debt for any reason.


>>>War is big money maker for country uninvolved directly in war.<<<

Agreed! And for bankers!
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#2315 Bader

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 10:51 AM

you have got the global police force.

Howdy Pliny,

We have different definitions of capitalism, money and the essential problem with finance. There is however much we agree on.
I dont accept that free enterprize is synominous with capitalism.
I associate free enterprize with democracy while capitalism
isnt necessarily associated with democracy as it is just at home with fascism and communism.
For example a state can be capitalist just as the corporate giants
and they dominate the conditions of the political and economic
environment in their favour at the expense of free enterprize of the rest of the community/economy. In our country it has been
well repeated that the small businesses which only employ a few people are the biggest employing group in the country and likely to be the same in the developed world. But they have no impact on govt or the political parties/law makers like corporates do. The simple reason I differentiate is because of the nature of the
beast and how it has such global power now. It is running amuck with Georgie boy and both need to be disciplined by sane people.

I dont hold that in recent decades Govts are a power unto themselves, the cabal around Bush and the corporate interest in
the so called war on terrorism shows that Govt is a prostitute
that knows it place, lying on the bottem, not on the top.
1913 was the beginning of the end of the US govt being a law unto itself, when it gave its power to the banking corporations
that formed the Federal Reserve. Britain started on this slide in 1694 with the formation of the Bank of England (based on precious gold). (there has to be an intrinsic relationship between the British imperialism and that of the US and their respective banking Castles.- the same means that Spanish and Polish troops are abroad today)

You probably didnt mean to indicate that capitalism drives govt, is therefore bad because govt then drains so much energy out of the economy. But that is what you appeared to say which therefore means that capitalism is a bad influence on govt and I will agree. Can you think of a better business than to rent figures as money to govts who can extract money by various means out of the people by law.
If you were a banker would you prefer to see govt budgets
based on taxes or on borrowing on the basis of interest repayments. If interest was ten% then the bankers would be lending ten times more than if the principle was the equal of the taxes.


Intrinsic value:
Fiat money is intrinsic, it has the national stamp of govt on it.
The world has been through the gold standard era and crashed.
I came across an article recently where someone was quoted as saying that the debt of the US at the end of WW2 was greater than the known gold in the world. What now? Paint lead gold?
You said it yourself govts borrow against future production for
the supply of money (regardless of what backs the money). If gold owned by the banks is behind the money before it is lent when govt gets it, it is based on gold and the future production
for anyone paid by them.
Lets say the 7 trillion debt of the US will take 30 years to pay off,
on the basis that the average economic conditions continue with
no major disasters, new debt will be needed as matter of course,
the nation and budgets and inflation are all growing ( and the supply of gold out of the ground had better be growing along with it) until the surplus is too small for the interest payments (they dont pay back principle!!!!!) The guy on gold-eagle.com calculated the US will hit this wall in 2014 I think it was. Now the money they are borrowing we are saying, for this exercise, is backed by gold. The US hits the wall, so what? Gold or no gold.
Take the third and fourth world debt crisis. Gold or no gold they cannot repay because the system is designed that they cant. Gold hasnt got anything to do with that.
You are advocating that the quantity of gold be the limit to the
civilization on the earth because that is the outcome.
I billion people - 1 billion loaves of bread, two billion people but 1 billion loaves of bread, three billion people- 1 billion loaves of bread and so on.
It will be just the same- we have the need, we have the land, we have the seed, we have the machines to harvest but we dont have the money, so we starve or fight.
And if the world money supply has already greatly exceeded the quantity of gold we will undertake a grand depression performance and then remain in a seige economy. Truely a world war will become every attractive like never before.
Fiat money= notes and coins: make up 3% of our nations money
supply, I expect a similar ratio in the developed world. 97% is
figures on computer. banks will never lend notes with real gold thread in it and their next step is a chip.
We will still want to borrow and they lend regardless of gold and all "money" in circulation will be principle (lent) and the volumn of money required to pay interest with never gets issued. It has to come out of the next lot of principle borrowed and it just grows on from there, like musical chairs- not every one makes it. It is mathematically impossible to escape.
It is common sense that the finite volumn of gold in/on the earth
cannot be the limit to the economic demands of the planet. When they get around to reducing the population down several billion which they intend to do within our life time that will be possible but those of us who survive will still be in debt to the system.
When nations and govts forgo their sovereignty and borrow/ allow another entity that power, regardless of the backing of the money they will go into debt and thus their policy will be dictated
as Prof Carrol Quigley pointed out and govts will conform to global regimes. Old man Rothschild is quoted for having said just that- if he could control the money he would be more powerful than the law makers. lawmakers are govt.
The claim money must be backed by gold merely incourages nations to borrow and not try and become independant, if the lion were to anounce on April the first all money must have gold
backing to be legal tender, there will be a gold crisis and its price will go through the roof and it wont happen unless he has cornered the gold first. It will be like the supermarket putting all the small businesses out of business. I cant think of a better way to get one global bank for one global govt to control the
use of the planet and all human activity.
How convenient to be able to blame the gold for the siege and not the global bureaucrats or their boses.
And revise the value of gold so they get what they want.
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#2316 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 02:32 PM

Bader; *******I dont hold that in recent decades Govts are a power unto themselves, war on terrorism shows that Govt is a prostitute*****

********You probably didnt mean to indicate that capitalism drives govt, is therefore bad because govt then drains so much energy out of the economy. But that is what you appeared to say which therefore means that capitalism is a bad influence on govt and I will agree. The claim money must be backed by gold merely encourages nations to borrow and not try and become independent,...*********

War on terrorism was already projected by Marx or Lenin.:
The last stadium of capitalism , earth were to be witness of the global war for resources, and it just happened.
Amish foresee, in the result of the capitalists war , that these resources might not be needed after all, life will start from scratch; primitive agriculture will begin, a primitive hoe will be use, maybe even matriarchal society will start
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#2317 Pliny

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 05:55 PM

Good morning!
Bader,
<<<The world has been through the gold standard era and crashed.>>>

It was on the gold standard for hundreds, nay thousands of years.

It wasn't until bankers started fractional reserve banking that they started getting into trouble. That was a long time ago as well. When they started handing out fiat currencies, which occurred in 1963, they had finally managed to steal the entire wealth of the nation - the USA.

There are problems with pure capitalism in that it also does not produce anything. In that respect it becomes much like government. It creates money with money. It is not good when private enterprise lobbies government to it's benefit. The medical establishment, with healthcare, does that. The results are disasterous. The medical establishment then become lobbiests to government instead of healthcare deliverers.

I think we do agree on the global picture quite closely, I believe we are still hashing through economic ideologies.

You mention the amount of gold would not be enough for the world. Well, if gold would have been kept as the standard a pair of shoes would still cost around 75 cents. Inflation would not have become rampant. Look for some super-inflation, in the US, which is about to occur. Probably after the election.
Inflation is the way debt gets partially written off in western governments.
The dollar becomes almost valueless and everyone will have to be a millionaire just to buy the necessities of life. The currency has nothing to do with wealth. Money does and money is what is accepted for trade. What is considered legal tender by government is what they print but if there is no confidence in the government the currency loses it's ability to be used for trade. It is especially fragile when it is just paper. People will then invent a new medium in which to trade.

>>>Fiat money is intrinsic, it has the national stamp of govt on it.<<<
Intrinsic means standing alone, on it's own. Forget the national stamp of government. It is a piece of paper with some ink on it.
A currency is also not money by definition. It is a representation of money and a medium of exchange but always, in order to maintain it's value, must be exchangeable for money. Fiat currencies are merely tokens handed out by government. The same way a tansit authority hands out tokens for bus rides.
Basically, today we are just trading tokens. They lose value and eventually are fairly worthless through inflation.

<<<< The claim money must be backed by gold merely encourages nations to borrow and not try and become independent,...*********>>>

It means governments have to be responsible to the people for their borrowing, if they borrow. They cannot just vote to borrow for whatever cause they want and create it out of thin air. Nations then can create real wealth instead of debt.

I gotta go.
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#2318 donquijote

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 07:25 PM

<And my friend what would a credit union invest in? I suggest it would be some capitalistic ventures. There is definitely no return in a Kibbutz!>

Howdy Pliny, all
I've sent my computer for tuneup, so I have to do some catch up.

We always think of an expanding Universe, but we got finite resources and a growing population. What's the solution? Maybe we got to consider "Zero Growth System," at least for some. Is the purpose of life to always growth or just live it?

<There is lots that could be done to improve our lot but it is not being done and there is a reason for that. It is called oppression.
The fact of the matter is that wealth, or the basic necessities of life for that matter, cannot be created without all of us contributing to each other through trade and industry. The farmer provides food, the tailor clothes, the wood worker shelter and on and on. That is capitalism. The form you see today called capitalism is a bastardized mercantilist form which I too rail against.>

I can see. Let me put this way in my jungle example: What we got now is not capitalism but a system set up by the lion and other animals at the top of the food chain NOT to have competition from the little animals. It's CORPORATE CAPITALISM. If the little animals knew this or wanted to do something about it, they would organize together and--and knowing their individual weakness--would form COOPERATIVES. But you are saying that they too should become strong individually and face the big predators, in which case we would have a TRUE LAW OF THE JUNGLE.

And I'm saying that a combination of the two--cooperation and competition--would be the best SOLUTION for all. Think about it.;)

<When I say that, I feel like today's socialist, who claims that true socialism has never existed. In fact, it has, in it's purest form. No matter the good intentions of the proponents it will always deteriorate to what it has already existed as in the past.
The only reservation I have on saying that is, a greater understanding of ourselves could make it workable, but on second thought a greater understanding of ourselves would eliminate the need for such a societal structure to live under.>

I believe we haven't had neither communism nor capitalism, because we always had a lion or hierarchal system and because we lived under the lie-on (the lie)--something noticed by Bader.

<Your description of a kibbutz, with the parties and dancing sound like you dream of the life of the rich capitalist without having to actually achieve it. Sorry for that barb but, couldn't resist. >

Exactly, that's the point: to create the good life--on the cheap...;)
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#2319 donquijote

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 07:44 PM

<The world needs a Martin Luther of the financial world. And the Vatican is still a global power- spiritual, fiancial and politcal with hundreds of millions in its fold so we cant expect absolute change
but opportunites of alternatives including ones with dancing and free music, right!>

I give out my flyers, and people--teenagers, women, all--ask me, "*When* is the party?" And I go, "next month.":)

I don't in what context Emma Goldman said this, which is ofter quoted...

"If I can't dance, I don't want to join your revolution."

http://webspawner.co...ers/donquijote9
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#2320 donquijote

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Posted 29 March 2004 - 08:32 PM

<ParadiseBirds http://engforum.prav...?threadid=64401
Personally I dont give a hoot who you "put in office".

Just get the goons out of worlds countries and stop stiring things uo so that USA can "move in" and scavange resources.

Pay for the resources like all other countries.


Magneto has a point. I will answer it from my point of view> Quote Bush: "You are either with us or against us."

Think about that quote and who it is from, and you tell me who stole the middle ground?>

I went there and chipped in...

Just choose anyone else
<You must have missed my point.

OK so we impeach BUSH .... AND PUT WHO IN OFFICE???????

WHO????? GORE ????? KERRY????? HILLARY???????

Let's not forget Sept. 11. I know you all now discount an attack on US soil. But you can bet your feathers joe average America will never forget it. >

<<<Try Michael Moore, or just try almost any other American at large. Chances are, he'll be better!>>>

<What about it donq?
BTW . I am still waiting on any name of your dancing kibbutz graduates-. >

Trust me, a party drags more people than politics, particularly if we want to bring in the youth. No wonder the Roman lions used "bread and circus" to bring in the poor. Capitalism does it too just that very low quality. Food is the worst, and the show sucks. They were able to bring down the Soviet Union with Rock because communism was so boring and was afraid of Western pop.

In the article I reproduced the other day about "libertarianism," they spoke about the need for a messiah who was a mix of two people and...Bob Marley! Yeah man, the power of music can rock the walls of Babylon!!!:)

<<<[Bob Marley] adapts the Gandhian principle
that "an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind." Violent
revolutions inevitably bring to power a "new boss" who, although
previously oppressed, once in power, turns into an oppressor. This is
the cycle of his-story. We have seen it in Yugoslavia. We have seen it
in the tribal war between the Hutus and the Tutsis.
The only way to break this cycle, Bob is saying, is through a revolution
in consciousness. A revolution that goes beyond merely naming what it
opposes, and learns to create a more attractive alternative.>>>

In other words, he rejects the idea of fighting a lion, only to put another one in place.:confused:

I think two songs of his represent the solution. The first next, and the second, "One Love"...:cool:

(You can find--and listen--all his songs at the website below)

GET UP, STAND UP [Bob Marley; Peter Tosh]

Get up, stand up: stand up for your rights!
Get up, stand up: stand up for your rights!
Get up, stand up: stand up for your rights!
Get up, stand up: don't give up the fight!

Preacherman, don't tell me,
Heaven is under the earth.
I know you don't know
What life is really worth.
It's not all that glitters is gold;
'Alf the story has never been told:
So now you see the light, eh!
Stand up for your rights. Come on!

Get up, stand up: stand up for your rights!
Get up, stand up: don't give up the fight!
Get up, stand up: stand up for your rights!
Get up, stand up: don't give up the fight!

Most people think,
Great God will come from the skies,
Take away everything
And make everybody feel high.
But if you know what life is worth,
You will look for yours on earth:
And now you see the light,
You stand up for your rights. Jah!

Get up, stand up! (Jah, Jah!)
Stand up for your rights! (Oh-hoo!)
Get up, stand up! (Get up, stand up!)
Don't give up the fight! (Life is your right!)
Get up, stand up! (So we can't give up the fight!)
Stand up for your rights! (Lord, Lord!)
Get up, stand up! (Keep on struggling on!)
Don't give up the fight! (Yeah!)

We sick an' tired of-a your ism-skism game -
Dyin' 'n' goin' to heaven in-a Jesus' name, Lord.
We know when we understand:
Almighty God is a living man.
You can fool some people sometimes,
But you can't fool all the people all the time.
So now we see the light (What you gonna do?),
We gonna stand up for our rights! (Yeah, yeah, yeah!)

So you better:
Get up, stand up! (In the morning! Git it up!)
Stand up for your rights! (Stand up for our rights!)
Get up, stand up!
Don't give up the fight! (Don't give it up, don't give it up!)
Get up, stand up! (Get up, stand up!)
Stand up for your rights! (Get up, stand up!)
Get up, stand up! ( ... )
Don't give up the fight! (Get up, stand up!)
Get up, stand up! ( ... )
Stand up for your rights!
Get up, stand up!
Don't give up the fight! /fadeout/

***Please check last link at bottom for his lyrics and more***

The "Real Revolutionary's" Guide to Bob Marley's Star

By Gregory Stephens

Twenty years after his death, Bob Marley is being embraced by the
mainstream American entertainment industry. On February 6 (his 56th
birthday), Bob gets his star in Hollywood; on February 14, he is the
subject of a documentary on the PBS "American Masters" series, and
February 20 he receives a Lifetime Achievement Award at the Grammies.
This is a sharp irony, given Marley's fierce critique of the system now
honoring him.
The PBS documentary, Jeremy Marre's excellent "Rebel Music," makes clear
that Bob's talents as an entertainer are among the least of the reasons
why people are still talking about him today. Marley was a "real
revolutionary," on whom the CIA kept a file which it still refuses to
release, for reasons of "national security." He was the voice of a new
world trying to be born, the face of international freedom movements,
both political and spiritual. Today, Bob is a paradox: it is primarily
as a spokesperson for underprivileged people that he has become a global
icon, but his music and image have become thoroughly commodified in
every imaginable way.

(snip)

On Racial Frontiers, I list three main features of this alternative:
non-racialism (One Blood); sustainability (living within the earth's
limits), and I-and-I consciousness ("the God within"). If we recognize
that the Creator is everywhere, then there is no division between us and
our Creator, no division between us and Creation. So we cannot hate
other humans, and destroy creation, without hating and destroying
ourselves.

(snip)

Bob sometimes claimed he and his people were revolutionaries, "fighting
single-handed with music." But here he adapts the Gandhian principle
that "an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind." Violent
revolutions inevitably bring to power a "new boss" who, although
previously oppressed, once in power, turns into an oppressor. This is
the cycle of his-story. We have seen it in Yugoslavia. We have seen it
in the tribal war between the Hutus and the Tutsis.
The only way to break this cycle, Bob is saying, is through a revolution
in consciousness. A revolution that goes beyond merely naming what it
opposes, and learns to create a more attractive alternative. Bob's more
attractive alternative to the "Babylon System," and "mental slavery" of
all forms, he called Rasta.

more...

http://webspawner.co...rs/donquijote10
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