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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#2361 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 01 April 2004 - 12:57 PM

Soros- Dog of war?
Two young men rushed into the conference room in downtown Kiev and threw water and a white substance at Soros. It said the white substance thrown at him was mayonnaise "You must leave Ukraine, you have nothing to do here,"
The Hungarian-born Soros is the founder of the Open Society Institute, which works for development of civil society in the countries of the former Soviet Union and elsewhere.

"His visit is actually aimed at conducting talks with the Ukrainian opposition to fund the Georgia scenario," Bratstvo member Oles Yanchuk said after the attack. The group's name means 'brotherhood.'
"Everything in Georgia was done by its people, not by me. I had nothing to do with it," he told reporters later Wednesday.
http://news.yahoo.co...l=index&cid=732
"Everything in Georgia was done by its people, not by me. "
He should say it today on April 1, Fools Day.
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#2362 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 01 April 2004 - 01:52 PM

The 15 CEOs with the Largest Pay Packages in 2003:

Total Total
Return Pay
Company CEO (millions)
Citigroup Inc. Sanford Weill * 42% $54
Bear Stearns Companies Inc. James Cayne 14% $40
Cisco Systems Inc. John Chambers 48% $35
Occidental Petroleum Corp. Ray Irani 53% $29
Intuit Inc. Stephen Bennett -2% $28
Kb Home Bruce Karatz 55% $28
Toll Brothers Inc. Robert Toll 80% $24
Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. Richard Fuld 18% $23
Cendant Corp. Henry Silverman 113% $23
Anheuser Busch Companies Inc. Patrick Stokes 11% $23
Goldman Sachs Group Inc. Henry Paulson 23% $21
PG&E Corp. Robert Glynn 100% $21
Lockheed Martin Corp. Vance Coffman -10% $21
Procter & Gamble Co. Alan Lafley 2% $20
Union Pacific Corp. Richard Davidson 18% $19

LOW -10% $19
MEDIAN 23% $23
AVERAGE 38% $27
HIGH 113% $54
http://quote.bloombe...lumnist_crystal

Italy, Turkey, Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands arrested 41 militants in a coordinated crackdown Thursday on a Turkish Marxist group, http://news.yahoo.co...l=index&cid=732

In light of capitalism greedy groups, I don
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#2363 Pliny

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Posted 01 April 2004 - 06:09 PM

I think we're getting to the core of it now.


>>>From your arguments it appeared that wealth/real wealth was gold/money and the main point you promote is that the money not being real wealth (gold/based) is the core of the problem and thus advocate logically that the money system must then return to being gold based (ie 100% reserve) .
So why now say that banks own the wealth? Why return to wealth money if they already have it?<<<

Real wealth is production of goods and services. It is not gold. Gold, for convenience AND it's value, has been used as money and money by definition is a representation of production - value of goods and services.

The fiat currency represents debt to the banks, therefore it is not money. The paper bills in one's wallet represent a debt. They are credit extended to you for your future production and credit extended to the government is the national debt. Basically, when the central bank prints the money and distributes it, it is a bill you/we owe them, as you subsequently say.

On that we agree.

What I am saying, is that "money" by definition no longer exists except between the banks as they transfer gold around. There are currencies and mediums of exchange but they represent, as you correctly outline, "credit".

>>>My interpretation of wealth is goods and services (luxurious living
at the top end as wealth is demonstrated).
I could agree banks own the wealth I am talking about because
all goods and services are being produced by debt to the banks.
The credit of the borrower is his, not the banks, including govts national debt, the credit is the
ability to (repay), create goods and services that they will produce for the market (sales) from which interest will be paid and possibly the principle.<<<

Right. No disagreement with the above. The credit, as you say, belongs to the borrowers and the extension of the credit (debt) by the banks are the tentacles that keep us enslaved.

This credit is based on, not only ability to pay, but on inflation, fractional reserve banking and interest rate. The only valid criteria for this credit being - ability to pay. The others do not represent value of goods and services and is where currency gets created out of thin air.

Now the crux of the problem is that your, or a nations, credit can be manipulated. Things putter along and appear to be fine but ultimately you are under control of whoever controls the credit.

National policy may now be dictated by the banks. A democratic nation that elects a government not approved by the banks is in for some economic downtrends.

I have to go now but will continue later. Are we making any headway?
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#2364 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 01 April 2004 - 09:45 PM

Pliny; ******Things putter along and appear to be fine but ultimately you are under control of whoever controls the credit.

National policy may now be dictated by the banks.********

Moody's rating
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#2365 Pliny

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Posted 01 April 2004 - 10:09 PM

>>>Moody's rating v is American institution which classified the debts and is setting the interest what country has to pay for their debts.<<<

Moody's is kind of a credit bureau which keeps tabs on national debts and rates their credit. It also rates Provincial and State debts. Part of the banking structure. At least that is my understanding. I would need to read more about it.

The central banks of nations, such as the Federal Reserve, are also private companies. The IRS is a private company commissioned by the Federal Reserve to be the tax collection agency of the US government. It is headquartered in Puerto Rico.
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#2366 Pliny

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Posted 01 April 2004 - 11:56 PM

>>>Summarizing; your way of thinking is like alien in your mind transferred with help of culture to your brain. You are conditioned by culture and you are not even aware of it.<<<

Very good, Marxian deduction.
Marx had no idea about economics or value because he placed all value on the STate and nothing on the individual.

Who is conditioned? The person who must think of himself as worthless and expendable or the person in a capitalist system who places some value on his life.?

We, as individuals, must have purpose in our lives or our lives do not have value. Certainly, to the communist, the purpose of all individuals is to serve the State. They tell you it is for the good of all but there is no recognition of the individual. To think only of the State is conditioning. There are other forces to think of beyond the state. The family, which is eliminated in a communist system. The group which is denied ability to exist in a communist system.All this besides the individual himself.

Naturally, we all like to place value on ourselves, if we consider ourselves worthless, we die earlier than we should.

I enjoy providing a service for others. It gives me a feeling of self-worth and that I am helping others. I chose from many options what to do.

What would you have me do? Follow orders?
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#2367 donquijote

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 12:37 AM

<Did you have a goal to learn to ride a motorcycle?>

Howdy Pliny
No, It wasn't a goal per se. I always was attracted to enduro bikes and when I came across the right model I just plunged into it. The first day I drove off. Stupid of me...;)
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#2368 Pliny

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 12:49 AM

>>>Howdy Pliny
No, It wasn't a goal per se. I always was attracted to enduro bikes and when I came across the right model I just plunged into it. The first day I drove off. Stupid of me...<<<

Not a goal per se? What does this mean? Did someone force you?

I think you just wanted to....Ha..ha!
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#2369 donquijote

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 01:04 AM

<Canada is a nation of people who are very superficially friendly and no one knows their neighbours. There is a high level of taxation but not as high as Sweden or Denmark for sure and perhaps even less than Germany or France. The United States is taxed the least of any, I believe.>

Thank you Pliny for that spectacular comparison, which is more or less what I suspected. But even if Canada has its problems, IF AMERICA WERE TO BE LIKE CANADA THERE WOULD BE NO PROBLEM, more education, better healthcare, less international conflict, but it's not likely to happen, maybe not even desirable...

I mean, there's another example more fitting for America, and maybe even for Canada, which has followed not the socialist road (give them the fish) but the libertarian road (teach them how to fish). Switzerland does take care of SOCIAL JUSTICE but it only collects around a 34% tax.

THE SWISS CANTONAL SYSTEM
A Model Democracy

by Frances Kendall

In this, the first of the "ISIL Solutions" series, we examine the
"Swiss model" of government -- a highly-decentralized system which
Swiss economist Robert Nef more accurately describes as an "ongoing
experiment" than a "model."

The concepts of devolution of power, local autonomy, and participatory
democracy have produced the world's most peaceful and prosperous
country. Of course, Switzerland, with its compulsory military service,
state controlled monetary system, railroad and telephone services, and
taxation, is not a pure libertarian society -- but for those
interested in reining in out-of-control governments in other parts of
the world, there are large parts of the Swiss cantonal system that are
worthy of emulation.

The word "democracy" is derived from the Greek words for people
(demos) and power (kratos). Inherent in the concept is the idea that
ordinary people should keep control of the decisions that effect their
lives. In an ideal democracy, the power of those who govern is limited
by safeguards that ensure that citizens can prevent their elected
leaders from abusing their powers.

SWITZERLAND
Switzerland is considered by many to be the most democratic country in
the world. It is also one of the world's most successful nations in
economic terms. The Swiss people have the highest per-capita incomes
in the world, and Switzerland is consistently rated among the top ten
nations in terms of quality of life.

The key to Swiss success is not to be found in natural resources
(which are in extremely short supply); nor does it lie in the
temperament of its 6.4 million people, who are essentially no
different from the Germans, Italians and French in the remainder of
Europe. It lies rather in Switzerland's political institutions, which
ensure that ordinary citizens are involved in political
decision-making, and that no one interest group is able to benefit
unduly at the expense of another.

http://webspawner.co...ers/donquijote1
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#2370 donquijote

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 01:43 AM

<National policy may now be dictated by the banks. A democratic nation that elects a government not approved by the banks is in for some economic downtrends.>

<<<How can a country work towards growth when it must first work to cancel out the sabotage consistently being imposed upon it? To try to enact economic policies other than harsh neoliberal ones is to become a besieged economy and society. Surviving, even making modest progress under these conditions, has required clever thinking.>>>

That's what's happening in Venezuela, and the same thing is expected anywhere any such project is undertaken...:confused:

Trying to get out of the jungle under the rules of the lion seems a bit difficult, almost impossible. But is there a solution? Yes, the most obvious solution is the COOPERATIVE and the other financial solutions proposed by Bader. The powerful squezee the noose around the poor? Fine, they get together and cooperate, first to survive then to create investment funds to create social projects...

How is Chavez doesn't have that "clever thinking"? Well, maybe he's the new lion in town and don't want to relinquish power over the water well...;)

Fighting the current crisis

The most recent round of Venezuela's ongoing economic crisis began with the U.S.-backed coup in April 2002, followed by the late 2002 general strike led by oil executives at the state oil monopoly Petroleos de Venezuela (PdVSA) and the business elite. The strike, which affected all sectors of the economy, paralyzed oil exports and cost the country nearly $8 billion.

The National Assembly's Economic Advisory Office estimates losses to the country's vital oil sector, which accounts for about one-third of gross domestic product, totaled $3.7 billion. The non-oil sector lost about $1.19 billion and the government said that as a result of the virtual shut down of the economy (meaning little revenue was coming in) it would have trouble meeting $5 billion in debt obligations for 2003.

Soon after the national strike began in December 2002, foreign exchange analysts estimated the bolivar would slip to VEB2000 per dollar by the end of 2003 because of the constant political uncertainty fomented by the business elite. The threat of a steadily devalued currency brought fears of massive capital flight and flight to quality. (4)

As investors began looking to buy dollars and close up deals in Venezuela, the central bank in January 2003 suspended auctions of dollars. Foreign reserves, which act as a buffer against the flight of money and investment, stood at $11.05 billion on Jan. 20, 2003 down from $11.93 billion at the beginning of 2003, according to central bank statistics. Such rapid decreases in capital prompted the Chavez government to revert back to the now-familiar policy of applying currency controls.

This time around, a state-run currency controls board, known as the Cadivi, was set up to sell dollars to companies that pass its strict guidelines at the official rate of 1,598 bolivars to the dollar. Venezuelans privileged enough to travel abroad (a small percentage, given that in 1997 67% lived on less than $2 USD a day) must buy dollars on the black market, where the going rate is about VEB2,500.

The move to fix the bolivar to the dollar was an admission that Venezuela, again, was in an economic crisis and at the mercy of foreign investors and elites. The opposition's characterization that the currency controls are a retaliatory measure by Chavez to punish the private business sector bears little steam. The bureaucratic burdens and financial losses the business elite are facing in the wake of these controls are an after-effect of their intended purpose: to protect the economy from capital flight. As history has shown, the application of these currency controls is one of the few monetary policy tools the government has to protect the economy from the whims of international investors and their domestic puppets. To banks and brokerages, foreign governments and institutional lenders, poor countries like Venezuela (coldly referred to as "emerging markets") are just another form of investment to pull in and out of in times of boom and bust. The real implications of such whimsy can be found in the growing numbers of poor, out of work citizens and indebted governments.

Foreign reserves are also being preserved and replenished through controls on credit card spending. The Chavez government is limiting the amount of money Venezuelans can spend while traveling abroad to $2,000 a year, meaning the currency controls cannot be circumvented by elites looking to exchange bolivars for dollars. Under the restrictions, the government will heavily fine anyone spending over the $2,000 limit.

The move, while inconsequential to the majority of Venezuelans too poor to travel abroad, has angered the business elite. Fedcameras - the leading business group - and Consecomercio - the leading retail umbrella group - have pushed hard for an overturn of the currency controls and will go to great lengths to see these policies changed. Fedcameras, incidentally, was a leader of the strike and one of its former leaders, Pedro Carmona Estanga, was Venezuela's 48-hour dictator during the coup in April 2002.

But the Chavez government has been careful not to choke off much-needed foreign investment totally. Since August, the finance ministry has issued billions of dollars in bonds to be sold within Venezuela, providing institutional investors as well as private citizens with an opportunity to get around the currency controls. This is an innovative approach to stimulate investment in Venezuela's economy while protecting it from these investors.

The bond sales, of course, are not without some controls of their own. The Finance Ministry said financial institutions as a group - meaning banks and brokerages - will only be able to purchase 20% of the latest $1 billion in bonds being issued. This leaves $800 million of the bonds for residents and private investors. Each individual financial institution will only be able to purchase a total of $50 million of the bonds.

The 10-month long currency controls have proven their efficacy. The Venezuelan finance ministry estimates foreign reserves will end 2003 at $20.7 billion - an increase of $9 billion, or roughly 30%, since mid-January.

Venezuela's economy is expected to contract 10%-11% in 2003, Finance Minister Tobias Nobrega has said. Nobrega said fourth-quarter GDP growth could be around 0%, as the economy begins to recover, and he said 2003 inflation will be around 25%. These estimates don't say much about a Venezuelan economic recovery, but should be taken in the context of constant assaults on the Chavez regime and therefore, the country's economic stability. How can a country work towards growth when it must first work to cancel out the sabotage consistently being imposed upon it? To try to enact economic policies other than harsh neoliberal ones is to become a besieged economy and society. Surviving, even making modest progress under these conditions, has required clever thinking.

http://www.zmag.org/...44&sectionID=45
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#2371 Pliny

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 03:04 AM

Decentralization of government is a desirable goal. Switzerland is probably the sanest place in Europe. Don't go quoting me mental health statistics now.

The federal government of the United States has become a monster and stolen powers from the States themselves.
In other words centralizing power as in Canada. Turdeau (typo intended)was quite a socialist and centralized power in the Federal government of Canada lessening the provincial powers.

Venezuela and Argentina are balking at the IMF. It's good to see but may be calamitous for the citizens.

I know the peole who can afford to get out of Venezuela are sending their families away. Chavez is not popular and I think you are right, he does not want to relinquish power.
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#2372 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 12:56 PM

Mexico expelled six rescued British cave enthusiasts. Members of the Mexican press had speculated the explorers were searching for uranium.
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#2373 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 01:30 PM

Pliny; >>>Summarizing; your way of thinking is like alien in your mind transferred with help of culture to your brain. You are conditioned by culture and you are not even aware of it.<<<
Very good, Marxian deduction.
Marx had no idea about economics or value because he placed all value on the STate and nothing on the individual.
Who is conditioned? The person who must think of himself as worthless and expendable or the person in a capitalist system who places some value on his life.?**********

Ha, ha ha. Thank you for recognizing Marxian deduction
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#2374 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 01:55 PM

donq- *********THE SWISS CANTONAL SYSTEM A Model Democracy********
Swiss has *O *- Zero the Domestic Product Grows....
It means that Swiss are not involved in any work in own country.
Swiss invest their high standing franc (with full service of foreign domestics who manicure their grass around residences) in places with the best returning. This returning Swiss invest in another laundry operation.
If money laundry operations is called democracy I congratulate democracy.
Swiss CANTONAL SYSTEM Goal is only to maintain Status Quo. :)
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#2375 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 02:08 PM

Polish president Kwasniewski hosts Economic Forum in Warsaw this month. People living in apartments in around hotel will be forced (with compensation) to leave their apartments on time of forum.
People living in distance from hotel hosting the forum and who have apartments larger than 60sq meters are obligated to accept strangers to their places.
Who says that attack on Iraq makes world safer place? :)
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#2376 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 02:17 PM

Gossips says, that not Polish president Kwasniewski ,( great enthusiastic of Polish participation in war on Iraq ), but his substitution greeted the Polish soldiers in Iraq.
Kwasniewski may consider himself to big treasure for democracy to risk his life. :)
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#2377 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 02:43 PM

Should the U.S. send more troops to Iraq?
Yes ; 341 votes (38%)


No, maintain current troop levels
; 303 votes (34%)

No, there are too many there now
257 votes (29%)

http://online.wsj.com/public/us

Who says that civilians are not responsible for war time in democratic country?
:)
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#2378 Pliny

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Posted 02 April 2004 - 03:00 PM

Well, you missed the question. Follow Marx and follow orders from the State or follow the money? The difference is I can choose to follow the money in what ever way I deem best for myself, my friends and my country. Perhaps I will find what I love to do and follow that. It is only necessary for me to work hard enough to buy groceries and a place to stay, if I so choose. There is only one choice from Marx.

>>>Polish president Kwasniewski hosts Economic Forum in Warsaw this month. People living in apartments in around hotel will be forced (with compensation) to leave their apartments on time of forum.
People living in distance from hotel hosting the forum and who have apartments larger than 60sq meters are obligated to accept strangers to their places.
Who says that attack on Iraq makes world safer place? <<<

Orders from the government? How novel?

They really don't trust people anymore, do they?
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#2379 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 11:09 AM

Pliny; ********Well, you missed the question. Follow Marx and follow orders from the State or follow the money? The difference is I can choose to follow the money in what ever way I deem best for myself, my friends and my country. Perhaps I will find what I love to do and follow that. It is only necessary for me to work hard enough to buy groceries and a place to stay, if I so choose. There is only one choice from Marx.********

Pliny; You missed the answer. I am not a agitator to get more members for socialist world. I just simply think that socialism is higher way of leaving. Follow the money is nothing else than the follow the food by animals. Nobody in any country is actually free from the orders from the state or standing behind the state. :)

You could more decided about your vocation in communism, than you can do in capitalism unless you extremely rich or gifted. :)

Moving Poland to so called capitalism is nothing else but act of robbing Poland from industry, banks , art and everything. Poland from position on seventh place in world is now completely eliminated to the West competition. All individuals who are responsible for that happened should never leave the prison for state treason. :D
I don
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#2380 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 03 April 2004 - 12:24 PM

God bless the Arabs for Slavs sake;

...bout Hizb-ut-Tahrir
The name of the organization is translated as "Islamic Party of Liberation" from Arabic.
This is a Sunnis religious and political organization established in 1953 in Jerusalem by judge of Shariat Court of Appeal Takiuddin an-Nabhani. After his death in December 1977, Palestinian Kadim Zallum, born in 1925 and living in Jordahn, became the leader of the organization.

Hizb-ut-Tahrir proclaims itself "a political party whose ideology is Islam". The purpose of this party is assisting to Moslems" returning to the true Islamic way of life and promoting Islam worldwide by means of jihad. Hizb-ut-Tahrir sees re-establishing the untied theocratic Moslem state - caliphate. The organization emphasizes that all its member have the purpose of absolute liberation from the domination of the "unfaithful".
The organization does not name the time for re-establishing the caliphate and hopes entirely on "Allah assistance" in this.
Russian presidential elections: it is easy to find excuses for toughening policy to Russia if the public is convinced that political processes in Russia are not legitimate.
Many Russian experts believe that moving Western politics into anti-Russian direction is inevitable. Director of Pamir-Ural research group Alexander Sobyanin said that there is no special plan to undermine Russia. Western elites do not think bad about Russia and are not going to bring Russia down. According to Mr. Sobyanin, sharp increase of anti-Russian propaganda resulted from the crisis of the Western society elites. "The elites of only three countries were in the mainstream of the global economic and social development in the last century - Russia, the USA and Great Britain.
The world entered the stage of changing dimensions - it has to abandon outdate absolute "financial criteria" and elaborate the new paradigm of development. Implementing changes will be accompanied by wars and social conflicts. Anglo-Saxon elites are not ready for this yet", said Alexander Sobyanin. He believes that there is a chance that Russia can elaborate new, alternative algorithm for global development (in lat century it was socialism), and for this reason the West perceives Russia as the dangerous ideological competitor.
Experts name several key distinctions between Russian and Anglo-Saxon models of social order. "Western model" implies having certain "agreement" accepted by the society. One of the backbones of this agreement is competition between individuals. Russian tradition does not recognize competition as positive factor because competition awakes low instincts in people and does not improve the quality of products, but, on the contrary, worsens their quality. When Russians enter competitive environment they start pursuing either tough aggression or sabotage. Russian model of social order is based on dominating the "common interest" when people receive "assignments" from authorities.
In Western society conscience of individual, his/her position are valued, the individual is authorized to develop the norms of his/her behavior. Any fault in the system results in flourishing its worst features. This explains abundance of gay marriages and other deviations from traditional society norms. According to Western traditions, a person himself is in charge of his/her way of life and is accountable neither to society nor to his/her ancestors. In Russian social system a person applies the society values to him/herself and for this reason the person is more stable", said a Russian sociologist in an RBC interview. He thinks that the main problem is Western model aspirations for absolute domination. "All people subdued by Anglo-Saxons must accept their civilization values and regulations, otherwise these people may be wiped out like 200 million Indians in North America. Russian model of civilization implies preserving diversity when all people have right to pursue they values", said the sociologist.

Obviously, the two civilizations are incompatible. "The West and Anglo-Saxon elites being on the threshold of severe crisis, see Russian social order model as a competitor", Alexander Sobyanin says. For this reason, the fight over controlling the areas near Russian borders (former Soviet Republics and East European countries) is in progress. The outcome is still uncertain: East European countries joined NATO, but did not borrow Western society values. :) Mikhail Chernov Source: RBC
Russia has no allies one says.....
Perhaps he would also like to explain why his/US regime flouted international law, breaching the UN Charter, the Geneva Convention and the founding principles of NATO itself, by carrying out an act of mass murder in Iraq, in which war crimes were committed. And on the subject of moral clarity, how does he justify lying, forging documents and bullying members of the Security Council to constitute his causus belli?:D
Are the purposes of the Alliance to commit war crimes, to drop cluster bombs into civilian areas, to bomb wedding parties, to slaughter children, to target civilian infra-structures and to hand out contracts without tenders, to set up a string of military bases around the globe within easy striking distance of the world's resources?
In this case, let us change the name from North Atlantic Treaty Organization to North Atlantic Terrorist Organization.:)
Bush , at the ceremony at the White House, after Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia were admitted into this organization: "As witness to some of the great crimes of the last century, our new members bring moral clarity to the
purposes of our alliance...They understand our cause in Afghanistan and in Iraq...because tyranny for them is still a fresh memory".
This idiotic and intempate nonsense was backed up with phrases by the now clearly assimilated Colin Powell, like nations "yearning for freedom".
:)
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