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#2401 donquijote

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Posted 05 April 2004 - 05:38 PM

Howdy Pliny, I'm going to address this one at you: I know you favor charity, but can you do so when it creates dependency?

I'd favor social justice, but not in the form of hand outs, but in the form of *opportunities* and *options*... For example few homeless would take a 9 to 5 job in a factory, but many, many would accept to pick up littering in exchange for a decent salary. What do you think?

"We're still coming here" to feed the homeless, "no matter what."

Homeless decry city's bid to end handouts in park

By CRAIG SCHNEIDER
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

JEAN SHIFRIN / AJC
The Rev. Ronald Yates hands out sandwiches to the homeless Sunday in Woodruff Park in downtown Atlanta.

Lynn Williamson took a verbal pummeling Sunday.

He had the unenviable task of trying to stop church groups from feeding homeless people at Atlanta's Woodruff Park.

Williamson, whose regular job is planning music shows for the park, was spreading word of the city's plan to shift these feedings to shelters.

The Rev. Ronald Yates, of Two Fish & Five Loaves Ministries Inc. in Snellville, who was handing out ham sandwiches, cakes and sodas in the morning rain, yelled at Williamson.

"I use my hard-earned money to buy this food," said Yates, his voice rising with a preacher's sense of purpose. "And I am going to make sure this is done right, myself."

The 20 homeless people in line for food also piped up, and Williamson soon had angry voices hitting him from all sides.

"Why do you want to do this?" asked Dave Davis, a 50-year-old homeless man. "You need to stop tearing down lower-income property. That's what you need to do."

Williamson, a little shaken by this, responded, "I don't tear down lower-income property. I provide music in the park."

Sunday's tense interaction pointed out the problems arising with the plan, which affects all city parks. Woodruff, which has been plagued with litter and rats, is clearly the epicenter of the effort, with as many as 50 homeless people occupying the benches regularly.

The plan, announced July 11, calls on charitable groups to take their food donations to one of eight approved homeless shelters and service providers. That way, the homeless can eat there, rather than in the park. The effort is part of the city's goal to end homelessness in Atlanta and its 100-day initiative to spruce up downtown.

Atlanta Mayor Shirley Franklin's homeless commission, put together after complaints from business people, tourists and residents, produced a report in March titled, "Blueprint to End Homelessness in Atlanta."

"Public food distribution causes safety problems related to health, litter and traffic -- and it also violates the Fulton County Health Code," Franklin said.

Legal issues unclear

Several of the homeless at Woodruff branded the feeding plan as harassment intended to drive them from the downtown park.

The mayor says the park should be a place everyone can enjoy, including the homeless. Urging the homeless to eat at shelters and other service providers, she says the homeless can eat in dignity and receive services.

But some homeless people hate such places. They say the sites are not always safe and clean. Many homeless don't want to have to register for services, or be prompted to pray in order to get a meal. They like the way things are, and resent the inconvenience.

"Some [homeless people] are just not eating as much," said Craig Dixon, a 39-year-old man homeless for a year. "If they're not eating, they'll resort to crime."

But the city police who patrol Woodruff have yet to get involved, and several said they're uncomfortable about writing a ticket to a well-meaning church group trying to feed the poor. Police officials say they are still reviewing whether their officers have authority to enforce a Fulton County health code.

No consensus

Meanwhile, the Georgia State University police, who also patrol the park near the campus, have been trying to discourage these feedings for about a year, and many groups have been cooperating, said Maj. Carlton Mullis.

"It's not like we're mean and heartless," he said, pointing to the improved state of the park. "But three years ago, you could come out here at 4 a.m. and see as many rats as pigeons. It made your skin crawl."

Much of the effort has been left to a nonprofit downtown improvement group called Central Atlanta Progress, which receives funding from the business community. It's also Williamson's employer. Periodically the organization has been sending representatives to the park to urge the church groups and the homeless to abide by the plan.

For his part, Williamson, who looked somewhat out of place in his pale Bermuda shorts and giant umbrella, knew he was in for trouble from the start. Many of the church groups have distributed food at the park for years, fulfilling what they see as a biblical mandate to feed the hungry.

After learning about the plan Sunday, the Rev. Louis Mitchell, who brought sandwiches from Chamblee, said he would indeed bring food to the shelters.

But he added, "We're still coming here" to feed the homeless, "no matter what."

Interesting survey (notice they never give you the option to vote for giving them opportunities)...;)

YOUR TURN
What's the best way to handle feeding of the homeless in Atlanta?
Indoors -- in shelters or churches. 48% 3020
Anywhere they are found so that none go hungry. 52% 3218
Total Votes 6238

http://www.ajc.com/m...04homeless.html
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#2402 Pliny

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Posted 06 April 2004 - 01:34 AM

Since you direct this at me I feel compelled to answer.

Observation of the problem over the years has dtermined it is not going away but increasing. The activities to eliminate the problem are not only ineffective but produce negative results.

Who does the most for the homeless today? There is welfare from government which is perhaps the most prevalent and manages to keep a few people off the street, I suppose but it's intent is to provide for the poor and less fortunate no necessarily eliminate homelessness. Today it provides many jobs for people who, perhaps, would themselves be homeless if the problem were resolved. This is so much a problem now that a whole mechanism exists to prevent cuts to programs. An entire industry has been created. We recently experienced a march where the homeless demanded welfare as a right.

The basic fault with this is that, "something for nothing"(and government does not expect anything in return) does not instill any sense of pride or self-worth in an individual. Self-esteem is earned not granted. I would be so bold as to say that it withers if granted without merit.

There are charities that provide food and often accept help in return. They are no competition for the government and are fast disappearing.

Churches offer some relief but are not an answer for some who have a distaste for prosyletizing.

The Solution. I think you are partly right that there must be some return on charity. I do not think enforcement of some sort of menial work is the correct solution. But somehow the person must develop a sense of self-worth and, I believe, only then will he make any headway to self-sufficiency.

Somewhere in the persons life he lost his self-respect and if that could be rehabilitated the person may return to ability and productivity.
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#2403 Pliny

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Posted 06 April 2004 - 02:08 AM

One or two questions.

Of course money must represent goods and services and as I mentioned money has not existed for quite a few decades.
It has been replaced with fiat currencies. The goods and services are the real wealth. Money is something that represents it.
Fiat currencies do not represent goods and services. I do not call them money. The danger in them is they can become valueless tomorrow and over time, due to inflation, lose their value most certainly.

>>>If you agree with me who's credit is being monetarised by the banks and that real wealth is goods and services why then is there any need for gold to interfer? (adding an arbitary cost)<<<

Because gold, itself has value. and if it belongs to the people they will not be able to be enslaved because they will always have an exchangeable valuable commodity. You know full well that if gold is the monetary standard then whoever owns it controls society. The people need to own it. They used to own it and the bankers stole it and replaced it with paper.

Real wealth is, of course, goods and services. Our governments have delivered the goods and services into the hands of the bankers through debt.

There is no mistaking that the huge federal debts of western nations are it's greatest burden and a useful tool for bankers making policy demands.

Remember, I think it was JP Morgan, who said, "Own nothing but control everything."

If I understand correctly, what you want to do is monetarize credit? Place a value on a person or business that represents his goods and services plus credit? Right?
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#2404 Bader

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Posted 06 April 2004 - 08:11 AM

The homeless and the crime stats etc are the fruit of a sick system
and to expect the cause to simultaneously provide a solution
is like expected someone to walk in two different directions at the same time.
The development of fourth world conditions in the developed world is increasing. When people have been left behind by the economic system they can only retain a little dignity- having no home, no income, no security, despised by those who havent yet been left behind. The tug-o-war over the park, a public place,
shows that dignity is loosing its meaning in todays world and being replaced by self-interest at any price.
It will take more thyan BB guns to shoot the system and bury it.
The stats of the freemarket world- the developed world is 20% are winning (5% of them own the best property/assests and the other 15% are their top servants) while 80% are lossing by not progressing- standing still is the same as going backwards. Meanwhile the poverty line is rising up the 80%.
Do something about that and you do something about the homeless, the ....., the ..... etc.
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#2405 Bader

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Posted 06 April 2004 - 10:28 AM

Howdy Pliny:

You are trying, in my view, to incorporate two different systems in one.

Fiat money is legal tender and you say there hasnt been any money in circulation for years. Hadn't noticed the crash of the world economy that would have caused.

You object to paper money ( I assume you mean non-gold backed
paper money and that you dont demand gold coins) because you say it could become valueless tomorrow.
That can happen if there are no goods and services to spend them on. If there are no goods and services to spend them on
and you have gold coins what will you get from the supermarket?
Answer: paper food. You can always take home the colour circulars advertising their specials and pop them in the microwave.
I am being facetious but the point is serious.
But dont go to the park outside DonQs looking for Christian handouts because DonQ will call the Police!

You dont acknowledge my point of the added cost-daily,weekly,monthly,annually- the burdon of first buying gold so you can buy anything else. Probably just as cheap and less
of a hastle to retain the debt system and just swipe ya card.
Then there is the point I also made about rocketing gold prices.
Are you trying to fill all the parks up? And thats a valid question,
more so if the supply of gold doesnt go around, which is why I suspect they went off it.
Not only will gold go up but the demand will drive the expensive minning resouces being sat on at present, as all the low cost extraction resourses will not cope anyway.
I would rather live in a communist state where there is a work
quota to satisfy in order to receive my basic needs.
Better still there will be options/choices at DonQs kibbutz.
You seem to be saying you need to bank your wages and gold weekly in order to draw on them. You cant keep writing checks/cheques against the same piece of gold.

"You know full well that if gold is the monetary standard then whoever owns it controls society"
Yeah. Who ever controls the creation of money (gold or no gold)
controls society, thus a democractic society cannot remain so if they give this power away to banking corporations- gold or no gold.
Gold or no gold, debt still takes over ownership and control.
A nation must control the creation and cancellation of the money
supply so that it doesnt have to borrow or tax people to repay the debt. The money must be a balanced claim on the goods and services
- real wealth- so that its circulation assures production of these
and that they will be "cancelled" by consumption, just like a bus ticket on arrival at ones destination.
One hundred seats- one hundred tickets is a balanced economy
bus company, new tickets for every cycle. Eighty tickets cheats consumers and rises prices deceiptfully and people miss out.
One hundred and twenty tickets means too many turn up expecting a seat, the tickets loose value because there is no guarantee one will get on board. This is deflation and inflation which is a permanent part of the present corrupt system. Little wonder there are vitims who end up in parks. And we envy
the likes of those who ran Enron! And its a local crime for Christians to feed the destitute! It figures.
The main function of money (like tokens, tickets etc) is as a
distribution system. Distributing goods and services to order-ensuring sucessful businesses in manufacturing and services etc.
You have two options: by State regulation and limited choice due to bureaucratic expedience
or
by individual choice
and if the people control their money the private based distribution of goods and services will be multi-choice (by demand)as DonQ knows it can and should be.
But bring down on the people a bank regime or gold regime it
is just another "govt" burden people have to carry they cant control.

When I refer to monetarizing credit - the credit I refer to is the
ability of people to earn/produce etc, just as in the case of being
scrutinized regards finance re higher purchase, in which they need to know your ability to repay. Collectively a nation of people have an ability to produce and this is what the international banker will want to know. This is one of the reasons african children have starved to death or to poor health
so they are incapable of education (brain underfed) so they become useless, when their govt is persuaded to sell their food
in order to pay debt. (And they say Hitler was bad)
Why go to vultures and lay down and die for them by borrowing against your ability to produce when a nation exercising its sovereignty can create and cancell its own money for itself. All it takes is a computer programme, not gold.

A political cartoon produced back in the seventies by a monetary reform party showed a man and his son on a beach, sand all around, a plastic beach bucket and spade in front of them, both sitting in the sand. The boy said to his dad: Dad why cant we build sandcastles?
Dads reply was: because we have no money.
A picture is worth a thousand words.
Reword that cartoon so dad says: because we have no gold.
A nation of people have resourses- sand, buckets and spade
equipment, they have the will and the skill. All they need is a
ticket system to facilitate demand and production, distribution and consumption to cancell the tickets and start again.
It can be done digitally without gold or paper for that matter.
paper gives the greatest flexability and is cheap to produce so
there is little arbitrary costs.
Such a system has the monetary part a part of the economic system, like our nervous system in our bodies. The current
banking system is autonomus, arbitrary, outside and above the economic system thus making it subordinate to it as it does our govt. Gold is exotic and likewise subordinates all to itself.
Rather than gold being the central dominating factor, in the system I am describing, the people are- they are the brain to which the nervous system is attached facilitating the industry and expendature of energy. People rule over the tangible (gold) or intangible (debt), not servants off.

The object of society is standard of living. The object of economy is goods and services (material wealth) which the standard of living is based on/measured by (but actually goes beyond the material well being). The goods and services which are real wealth come from energy and knowledge. The real gold of society is the energy which originates from the Sun and is free
and knowledge which has accumulated over thousands of years.
Notice no one can own either of these so that they can hold a mortgage over society if they attempt to benefit (apply) either.
Not Govts , not bankers and not gold minning corporations.
The whole world is effectively paying royalties on these two unownerable items of "gold" to a small bunch of leaches.
State control (communism) and bank control (capitalism) keep
people in the dark and in bongage preventing free and natural enterprise. ( of which a coop is a classic example)
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#2406 donquijote

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Posted 06 April 2004 - 12:33 PM

<The homeless and the crime stats etc are the fruit of a sick system
and to expect the cause to simultaneously provide a solution
is like expected someone to walk in two different directions at the same time.
The development of fourth world conditions in the developed world is increasing. When people have been left behind by the economic system they can only retain a little dignity- having no home, no income, no security, despised by those who havent yet been left behind. The tug-o-war over the park, a public place,
shows that dignity is loosing its meaning in todays world and being replaced by self-interest at any price.
It will take more thyan BB guns to shoot the system and bury it.
The stats of the freemarket world- the developed world is 20% are winning (5% of them own the best property/assests and the other 15% are their top servants) while 80% are lossing by not progressing- standing still is the same as going backwards. Meanwhile the poverty line is rising up the 80%.
Do something about that and you do something about the homeless, the ....., the ..... etc.>

Howdy Bader
I couldn't agree more, but I'll rephrase it: Get rid of the jungle, get rid of the lions and foxes, get rid of the pigeons. The 20% at the top of the food chain creates a jungle of which the pigeons are a natural consequence. The little people in turn are forced to live indoors--or go shopping whenever they can afford it--for fear of venturing out there. The world of the lions is closed to them; the world of the pigeons--our better parks--is closed to them. And if you try to do something about removing a homeless in front of your house--like it happened to me--you are threatened by the hyenas into keeping silence, the way the indifferent majority do.

Is that the same indifferent majority that witnessed Jesus' cruxifixtion? That's the crux of the matter: How can we turn the indifferent little people into a protagonist role?
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#2407 Pliny

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Posted 06 April 2004 - 09:47 PM

>>>Fiat money is legal tender and you say there hasnt been any money in circulation for years. Hadn't noticed the crash of the world economy that would have caused.<<<

Money to be money must have value. There can be a fiat currency but not a fiat money per definition. A fiat currency is a representation of nothing, it is a piece of paper or token, it can be anything. It has more value than what it is made from, only because the government says so and the citizenry agrees to accept it. When confidence in the government is lost so goes it's fiat currency. If the government of the US collapsed the USD would be close to worthless.

If you want to know why they went off the gold standard here is a link that will tell you.

http://www.mises.org...sp?control=1482

What keeps a government honest?

The US used to print dollar bills which had printed on them that the US government had on deposit in the US treasury the amount of real money printed on the "bill" and promised to redeem the bill for that amount of real money. In this case gold or silver.
The basic reason the government went off the gold standard is that it could not create more dollar "bills" than what "money" (in this case gold and silver) it had in it's reserves. It was very limiting to the government. They could not be spendthrifts and the American people at that time owned the gold in the vaults, on the governments trust and promise to redeem those dollar "bills".

>>>Sun is free and knowledge which has accumulated over thousands of years. Notice no one can own either of these so that they can hold a mortgage over society if they attempt to benefit (apply) either.
Not Govts , not bankers and not gold minning corporations.
The whole world is effectively paying royalties on these two unownerable items of "gold" to a small bunch of leaches. <<<

No one can own either of these things (Sun or knowledge)but through debt they have managed to get us to forfeit it to them.
And yes the whole world is effectively paying royalties to a small bunch of leeches.

If their wealth becomes threatened, and it is in their interests, they can cancel the fiat tokens (what you call money) at any time.

Wealth, we have agreed, is the goods and services of a nation and, if I understand you correctly, you think the supply of currency should be in balance with the available goods and services. Debt, to you, is representative of the "future" production of goods and services.
So the total currency supply would balance with the goods and services plus debt (future production). Do I have that right?

In the interests of time I won't wait for an answer but assume what I have said in the previous paragraph is basic to
the system you describe. The questions I have for you are this.

Let's say, now, that I have ten thousand dollars worth of goods in my possession. I decide that an object in my possession is more valuable and I won't part with it for less than the price of all my possessions. Does the nation just become richer? Do we make an entry in my bank account for that amount?

So the big question is - How is value assigned so that goods and services are kept in balance especially in view of the fact that value is a personal, subjective, and thus arbitrary, assignment and is also subject to an ever changing supply and demand?
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#2408 donquijote

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Posted 06 April 2004 - 11:44 PM

<But dont go to the park outside DonQs looking for Christian handouts because DonQ will call the Police!>

<And its a local crime for Christians to feed the destitute! It figures.>

Howdy Bader
I'm not only talking about theoretical problems and solutions, but I'm reporting right from the jungle! Christians have every right to help the poor, just they often feed the problem! It's not even like they shelter the homeless in their own churches because I often see them sleeping outside the fenced churches, while the priests inside turn a blind eye. Hypocrisy I call it. They feed the homeless hanging out in the parks that belong to the people. Then the parks are *occupied* by the homeless and the people is scared away.:confused:

I wouldn't call the police on them though. I just defend my right to have a decent view from my apartment. If I have to live with the homeless sleeping across the street I may be tempted to become one myself and choose a nice green park--and avoid paying big bucks to the landlord who flies 3 American flags in his vehicle. When I told him that the jungle wasn't in Iraq but across the street, he looked up and down and didn't say a word.:)

<The object of society is standard of living. The object of economy is goods and services (material wealth) which the standard of living is based on/measured by (but actually goes beyond the material well being). The goods and services which are real wealth come from energy and knowledge. The real gold of society is the energy which originates from the Sun and is free
and knowledge which has accumulated over thousands of years.
Notice no one can own either of these so that they can hold a mortgage over society if they attempt to benefit (apply) either.
Not Govts , not bankers and not gold minning corporations.
The whole world is effectively paying royalties on these two unownerable items of "gold" to a small bunch of leaches.
State control (communism) and bank control (capitalism) keep
people in the dark and in bongage preventing free and natural enterprise. ( of which a coop is a classic example) >

I like this part which is at the core of what I propose. I think capitalism thrives on selling ice to the eskimos.;) But we can produce the ice ourselves and keep the change.:cool:
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#2409 Pliny

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 01:22 AM

I think I will point out every time you call people idiots.

I do not know how you propose for the people to get rid of the lion when you think they are such fools that can be so easily blind-sided by "capitalism". True, their education leaves a lot to be desired and they are more easily led now than earlier in history but that is not a result of capitalism that is a function of social engineering.
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#2410 donquijote

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 01:41 AM

<I think I will point out every time you call people idiots.>

Howdy Pliny
No, I don't. I think most of them see the problem with the system but see no way out so they go along with it. Call it, "fake it to survive"...

<I do not know how you propose for the people to get rid of the lion when you think they are such fools that can be so easily blind-sided by "capitalism". True, their education leaves a lot to be desired and they are more easily led now than earlier in history but that is not a result of capitalism that is a function of social engineering. >

What you call "capitalism" has been used to sell a monopoly set up by and for the lion. Whether good capitalism exists remains to be demonstrated, and I want to hear of such cases. Maybe only after we get rid of the fox...;)
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#2411 donquijote

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 02:47 AM

"We are going to have to realize that mad, pointless acquisition for acquisition's sake (avarice) has simply got to be tempered. We have to give back. We have to help those nations, and those peoples, whose suffering contributed for centuries to the creation of the Wonderland called America. We have to respect, and help, others around the world and here at home."

Pliny, what do you think of all those SUVs CAPITALISM is selling us? What on Earth do we need an SUV for in a city environment? Isn't the job of the foxes to sell us ice, or SUVs for that matter?

Do We Really Need All Those SUVs?
By: Dr Arthur N Lewin
Mar. 04, 2002

Tell me where I'm going wrong? It seems pretty obvious. So why isn't somebody saying it? Do we really need to be running around with all these SUVs and all these other gas-guzzling contraptions? After all, no matter what theory you use to explain 911, our heavy, and steadfastly increasing, consumption of oil from an unstable region is hardly helping the situation.
So why don't we cut back? No, the media and our leaders are not telling us to do this. But doesn't commonsense tell us that we must?

Think back to that day, the awful day the earth stood still. That was six months ago! Back then six days, let alone six weeks, seemed like an eternity. We've been given a second chance. And what are we doing with it? Trying to make life go back to exactly like it was before? Why?

Because of the events of 911, there are now fewer cars on the streets of New York and fewer planes flying the skies. Isn't that good? We're tearing less of a hole in the ozone layer and slowing the pace of global warming.

Any engineer will tell you that you cannot place two critical, and potentially flammable, systems in one location. But we do. We get much of our fuel from a region that is a tinderbox of ethnic hatreds and economic inequality. And the money our oil dollars pour into the area only fans the flames of discord.

In a sense, on September 11th, the world blew, a fuse so to speak. We overheated, and there was a deadly short circuit. We need to listen to what the earth is telling us. To slow down and rethink the way we are carrying on. We need to adopt a different world order.

We are going to have to realize that mad, pointless acquisition for acquisition's sake (avarice) has simply got to be tempered. We have to give back. We have to help those nations, and those peoples, whose suffering contributed for centuries to the creation of the Wonderland called America. We have to respect, and help, others around the world and here at home.

And in so dong we will have less. Yes, that is true. But we will have gained something money cannot buy. Peace of mind. No, our leaders are not telling us this. They are almost all tied, inextricably, inexplicably, to the old, outmoded order. But we know instinctively what we have to do. We must make what a few have long been doing, full-time, the work of us all. We must regain the love of the earth, our Mother and our home, and the regard of its peoples, our brothers and our sisters under the sun... Ramsees7@yahoo.com

http://www.blackwebp...m?ArticleID=612
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#2412 Pliny

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 02:49 AM

>>>No, I don't. I think most of them see the problem with the system but see no way out so they go along with it. Call it, "fake it to survive"...<<<

Call it social engineering. They have been made to feel insignificant first and comfortable second in order to decide to "fake it to survive..."

All the negativities in life, as we know it, cannot be eliminated by any social system. Death will still occur. Greed, avarice, hostility cannot be, nor do I think they should be, eliminated. They are baser instincts necessary to survival but have little place, if any, in a civilized society. I think you can agree with that.

We did rise above that once and are now on a descent into chaos and the eventual implementation of a police state where our baser instincts may become more valuable for our individual survival.
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#2413 donquijote

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 03:09 AM

<Call it social engineering. They have been made to feel insignificant first and comfortable second in order to decide to "fake it to survive...">

OK, what's in a name? Social engineering which occurred as much in capitalism as in communism. The perfecting of Pavlov's theory if you may.

<All the negativities in life, as we know it, cannot be eliminated by any social system. Death will still occur. Greed, avarice, hostility cannot be, nor do I think they should be, eliminated. They are baser instincts necessary to survival but have little place, if any, in a civilized society. I think you can agree with that.>

I do, but we can be so much better if we do change the system. Perhaps it's more worthwhile because we only got one shot at life, at least in the flesh and bone sense.

<We did rise above that once and are now on a descent into chaos and the eventual implementation of a police state where our baser instincts may become more valuable for our individual survival.>

I believe Orwell had the key to the problem. Big Brother is watching you... The hope lies in the Proles...;)
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#2414 Pliny

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 03:20 AM

>>> The hope lies in the Proles...<<<

It always did and it always will.
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#2415 donquijote

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 04:49 AM

>>> The hope lies in the Proles...<<<

<It always did and it always will.>

Yeap, whether it's consumers or proles, they got the key...;)

"In my nightmare scenario, everything has one of these tags in it, and everyone's watching you all the time," she said. "The only thing to keep businesses from creating a total surveillance world is consumers taking positions against it."

The Sound and the Fury
Michael Fitzgerald - ExtremeTech

I watched horrified as Tom Cruise's character in the movie "Minority Report" was bombarded by personalized ads as he walked through a shopping center. The advertisers keyed into Cruise via laser technology that read a unique, iris-based eye print. That was fiction, though. In our future, the invasive technology will be different and, according to some privacy advocates, even worse. It's called RFID.

RFID stands for radio frequency identification. It's fairly straightforward wireless technology that's been around since World War II, when the Allies used it to help their planes avoid friendly fire. An RFID tag is like a tiny luggage label. It contains a small microchip with detailed information about the thing it's attached to (name, address, serial number or airplane number). Zap the RFID tag with a burst of wireless energy, and it broadcasts everything it knows to whoever can receive the signal.

http://story.news.ya...=1739&ncid=1729
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#2416 Pliny

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 12:11 PM

I have seen first hand an RFID tag and the syringe that injects it under the skin.

It too will be sold to the gullible consumer in the name of safety.

A different form, a GPS wrist band, was on the Montel Williams show and is being marketed to parents now in order to know where their children are at all times. It is such a caring-sharing tool.
A few kidnappings advertised on the news and consumers will stampede like lemmings to protect their child. Once the majority of children have one it is a short hop to wanting to have others know we are safe as well.
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#2417 Pliny

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 03:24 PM

Gone fishing!
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#2418 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 07 April 2004 - 11:42 PM

Eden ******* liberated******* by US by bombs; ... Sumerian Uruk , modern Tall al-Warka' is ancient Mesopotamian city located northwest of Ur (Tall Al-Muqayyar) in southeastern Iraq. The site has been excavated from 1928 onward by the German Oriental Society and the German Archeological Institute. :)
Erech was one of the greatest cities of Sumer and was enclosed by brickwork walls about 6 miles (10 km) in circumference. A lot of Biblical parallels in Sumerian literature. What are they?
Traces of Sumerian religion survive today and are reflected in writings of the Bible. As late as Ezekiel, there is mention of a Sumerian deity. In Ezekiel 8:14, the prophet sees women of Israel weeping for Tammuz (Dumuzi) during a drought.
The bulk of Sumerian parallels can, however be found much earlier, in the book of Genesis. As in Genesis, the Sumerians' world is formed out of the watery abyss and the heavens and earth are divinely separated from one another by a solid dome. The second chapter of Genesis introduces the paradise Eden, a place which is similar to the Sumerian Dilmun, described in the myth of "Enki and Ninhursag". Dilmun is a pure, bright, and holy land - now often identified with Bahrain in the Persian Gulf. It is blessed by Enki to have overflowing, sweet water. Enki fills it with lagoons and palm trees. He impregnates Ninhursag and causes eight new plants to grow from the earth. Eden, "in the East" (Gen. 2:8) has a river which also "rises" or overflows, to form four rivers including the Tigris and Euphrates. It too is lush and has fruit bearing trees. (Gen. 2:9-10) In the second version of the creation of man "The Lord God formed man out of the clay of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and so man became a living being." Enki and Ninmah (Ninhursag) use a similar method in creating man. Nammu, queen of the abyss and Enki's mother, bids Enki to "Kneed the 'heart' of the clay that is over the Abzu " and "give it form" (Kramer & Maier p. 33) From there the similarities cease as the two create several malformed humans and then the two deities get into an argument.
Returning to Enki and Ninhursag, we find a possible parallel to the creation of Eve. Enki consumed the plants that were Ninhursag's children and so was cursed by Ninhursag, receiving one wound for each plant consumed. Enlil and a fox act on Enki's behalf to call back Ninhursag in order to undo the damage. She joins with him again and bears eight new children, each of whom are the cure to one of his wounds. The one who cures his rib is named Ninti, whose name means the Queen of months, (Kramer & Maier 1989: pp. 28-30) the lady of the rib, or she who makes live. This association carries over to Eve. (Kramer, History Begins at Sumer 1981: pp. 143-144) In Genesis, Eve is fashioned from Adam's rib and her name hawwa is related to the Hebrew word hay or living. (New American Bible p. 7.) The prologue of "Gilgamesh, Enkidu and the Underworld" may contain the predecessor to the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This tree not only contains a crafty serpent, but also Lilith, the legendary first wife of Adam. The huluppu tree is transplanted by Inanna from the banks of the Euphrates to her garden in Uruk, where she finds that:
...a serpent who could not be charmed
made its nest in the roots of the tree,
The Anzu bird set his young in the branches of the tree,
And the dark maid Lilith built her home in the trunk. (Wolkstein and Kramer 1983: p. 8)
It should be noted that Kramer's interpretation that this creature is Lilith has come into quiestion of late.
Another possible Sumerian carry-over related to the Fall of man is the lack of "pangs of childbearing" for those in Dilmun. In particular, Ninhursag gives birth in nine days, not nine months, and the pass "like good princely cream" (Kramer 1981: p. 142,145) or "fine oil" (Kramer & Maier 1989: p. 25)
The quarrels between herder god and farmer deity pairs such as Lahar and Ashnan or Enten and Emesh are similar in some respects to the quarrels of Cain and Abel. In the Sumerian versions death appears to be avoided, although we do not have the complete Lahar and Ashnan story. (Kramer 1961 pp. 49-51, 53-54)
The ten patriarchs in Genesis born prior to the flood lived very long lives, most in excess of 900 years. The seventh patriarch, Enoch, lived only 365 years before he "walked with God". (Genesis 5). The account which numbers those Patriarchs as ten is attributed to the Priestly source. The Yahwist source (J), details only seven Patriarchs prior to Noah, so that with him included, there are eight antediluvian patriarchs. (Genesis 4: 17-18) The eight antediluvian kings of in the Sumerian King List also lived for hundreds of years. (Kramer 1963 p. 328) S. H. Hooke notes another version of the Sumerian King list, found in Larsa details ten antediluvian kings. (Hooke, p. 130) The clearest Biblical parallel comes from the story of the Flood. In the Sumerian version, the pious Ziusudra is informed of the gods decision to destroy mankind by listening to a wall. He too weathers the deluge aboard a huge boat. Noah's flood lasts a long time, but Ziusudra comes to rest within seven days and not the near year of the Bible. He does not receive a covenant, but is given eternal life. (Kramer 1963 pp. 163-164; Kramer 1961 pp. 97-98)
As far as the New Testament goes, many also draw a parallel between Dumuzi and Jesus because Dumuzi is a shepherd-king and he is resurrected from the dead. This is perhaps appealing to some as Dumuzi's Akkadian analog, Tammuz, appears in the Bible, however Dumuzi's periodic return from the underworld is not unique even in Sumerian literature. His sister Geshtinanna also rises from the dead, and if one counts those born as deities, Inanna does as well. Periodic death and rebirth is a common theme in agricultural myths where the return of the deities from the earth mirrors a return to life of plants.

Fact that Bible might be oldest artistic plagiat also could press some to commit the crime on Iraq. . Elimination of all traces of six thousand years old civilizations would give the Bible priority in the world. But fortunately it doesn
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#2419 donquijote

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Posted 08 April 2004 - 02:23 AM

Hey, Woj, don't forget to vote. I know your answer...;)

Think about it from the little people's perspective: "If Jesus is no God, then he's a faker and not worth it of any sacrifice; if, on the other hand, he is God, then he would go to Heaven for another 2000 years and leave us stuck at the mercy of Rome. We better stick with Rome."

And that how the practice of always sticking with the powerful was passed to future generations, chief among them the Germans under Hitler and some other cases out there...

vote...

http://engforum.prav...?threadid=70312
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#2420 donquijote

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Posted 08 April 2004 - 02:49 AM

Howdy, Pliny, I know you went out there to fish, but I just want you to know that you were right about the UN. They are big fox. I wonder where the USofA stood at that though. Well maybe the intelligence services were on vacations...;)

US Congress reviews alleged abuses in UN's oil-for-food program for Iraq

WASHINGTON (AFP) - US lawmakers examined ways to prevent a recurrence of the kind of corruption alleged to have riddled the United Nations (news - web sites)-administered oil-for-food program in Iraq (news - web sites).

Proceeds from the humanitarian effort reportedly were illegally diverted to prop up the regime of Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein (news - web sites), increasing the suffering of Iraqis who were denied access to food and medicines.

"Although the precise extent of the corruption and mismanagement in this program is not yet known, there is no doubt that billions of dollars that should have been spent on humanitarian needs in Iraq were siphoned off by Saddam's regime through a system of surcharges, bribes and kickbacks," Senate Foreign Relations Chairman Richard Lugar said at the hearing.

"Even more disturbing is the prospect that governments or individual officials may have opposed the (US-led) coalition's decision to use military force against Saddam Hussein in part because an overthrow of the regime would expose ongoing corruption in the oil-for-food program," Lugar said.

Lawmakers said they were particularly concerned, as a June 30 date for handing control of the country back to Iraqis nears, that future humanitarian efforts by government and independent groups could again be diverted.

Lugar expressed concern that there is no system in place to "supervise the situation that led to the graft and corruption."

John Negroponte, Washington's UN ambassador, said an upcoming inquiry launched by UN Secretary General Kofi Annan (news - web sites) to investigate fraud and corruption in the program "will perhaps assist in recouping lost funds for the Iraqi people."

The UN oil-for-food program, authorized by the UN Security Council, was put in place in December 1996. The Security Council approved the program to alleviate the hardship brought about by international sanctions imposed on Baghdad in August 1990, in an effort to force Iraq to withdraw its occupying troops from Kuwait.

The program allowed for the import of foods and medicines into Iraq using the proceeds from controlled Iraqi oil sales, but maintained sanctions on other commerce.

The US General Accounting Office (news - web sites), the investigative arm of the US Congress, estimated in a report issued last month that some 5.7 billion dollars in illegal oil was smuggled out of Iraq from 1997 to 2002, in violation of the UN sanctions.

All told, the GAO estimated that the Iraqi regime skimmed some 10.1 billion dollars in illegal revenues from the oil-for-food program during that period.
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