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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#2441 Bader

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Posted 12 April 2004 - 06:06 AM

Woj:
I accept your differentiation, I was referring to the line of the Lion
of the jungle going back to Babylon and the Iraqi situation you
raise. History and its evidences should be protected.
I am not aware of anything untoward regarding the Sumerian culture and their achievements show intelligence and knowledge
of a standard that indicates civilization perhaps started to go backwards into the Babylonian era which tried to form one world
order as today to brought down intervention according to the Bible record, scattering the peoples into different language groups. Today the tide is coming back in.
You said we are not necessarily Noahs children. I agree hence the move to hybridize the races as a form of genocide.
The Books of Moses (torah) were of course written when clay tablets were probably already underground in rubble with new
civlizations built over them.
Knowledge of the antideluvian world would have passed to the
Sumerian and other early civilizations. If Babylon became the
fountain of rebellion and revolution, it may have meant previous knowledge would have been baned as we recently refurred to in the form of book burning. Clay burying may have been the same
way to protect a new world order. An example of early knowledge is the issue surrounding Abel and Cain and the sacrificial lamb, supposedly thousands of years before its time.
I didnt intend to devalue to worth of the clay records, but merely to show that they are only as good as the rulers will allow them to be, so if the Sumerian leaders and culture were associated with integrity well then good.

Blair is stretching the war of lies into a lie of the granest proportion- civlization and the globe itself. We know it (if we tell a big enough lie people will believe it ) but does he, and upon it hangs his political future.
Mind you on Sept 11 George Nero put the blame on Muslims.
He has put them in the arena, men women and children fighting
Lion soldiers.
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#2442 Bader

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Posted 12 April 2004 - 06:38 AM

Howdy DonQ:
I dont agree with their theology, while the human side as social
progress out of oppression of distorted religious laws and the benefits were there following the impact of the carpenter from Nazareth.

The Guarani society is remarkable and given that the principles they were based on- from the early christian community model
(if we can use that word) it is in stark contrast to capitalism and its worst nature which seems to becoming more increasingly
laid at the feet of Christianity for blame. No one selects beliefs to justify this. no one shows Christians dominate the debt banking system and no one bothers to point out at what time the Biblical
opposition to usury was dropped by the christian churches at large. Perhpas someone has decided-hey it worked for Nero, it should work for us. Cant imagine though the huge protests outside the IMF global meetings and the like diverting to the
local churches drowning out the church services with the noise of
protest outside.

It needs to be noted that part of the success of the Guarani Society is not just from what they have done but what they have not had to do because of the money system that plagues the rest of the world.
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#2443 Bader

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Posted 12 April 2004 - 08:03 AM

"The purpose of studying economics is not to aquire a sert of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to avoid being deceived by economists."
Joan Roninson (1903 - 1983), economist

"When we call the new mass-production system 'automatic' or
'mechanised', we do not mean that the machines have become automatic and mechanised. What has become automatic and mechanical is the worker."
Dr Drucker : The Future of Industrial Man

Woj:
you asked me recently to explain about the above subjects. There is a lot I have covered in the discussion with Pliny and it may have bearly touched the surface of a huge subject.
On the other hand bits I have said may not make a lot of sense
because what I advocate is unorthodox.
One really needs to study it and give themselves time to assimilate because it is a very subtle subject many misconceptions and a different mindset required to the orthodox
representation. (it is simply getting harder as the years go by to defend what clearly isnt working )

I could commend you to two sites to study these from a practical and scientific point of view that also explains precisely the flaws
(constructed) in the present system and see clearly how it enslaves mankind.
But I warn you having declared yourself pro-socialist your mindset will be on the opposite side of the table and thus be
confronted with a philosophy that has the purpose of freeing man from central control. Given that one may believe that socialism
is the better way from capitalism to address the need for social
justice and a means of ensuring the people have the benefit of
the system of modern industialisation, education and medicine
etc, the dynamics of socialism works towards control of all social units we know as people. Having said that, I did not infur that it is capitalistic, because it will make anyone aware that both capitalism and socialism are the investments of the same bankers.

They are: ecn.net.au/~socred/

and douglassocialcredit.com

The Brisbane (au) based one will give you a brief summary on the homepage along with the three subsection of economics, politics and philosophy to click on which will give an overview of what it is all about. Within both there are various alternative perspectives
and explanations of the current banking system faults.
I thoroughly recommend study there for anyone with an open mind. I have done mine through the books of the original man who began the movement, ( C.H. Douglas) not the web sites and I get their journals.
THis is the guy the British Socialists (Fabians) feared the most
because he threatened to expose the banking system to the
exploited, in particular the common working man and thus destroy their hold on the working class from which they (socialists
and the British Labour Party) derived their power and deflate the Marx/Hegelian dialectic strategy from which they rode on the backs of the workers as any Capitalist moneys would. The potential was to turn the whole sick political system on its head. Thats why you will not have heard of him. He died about fifty years ago.

In 1933 a public debate was held and broadcast in Birminham
England between Douglas ( an engineer ) and a Mr Hawtrey, then the Assistant Secretary to the Treasury which represents an exalted position in British Govt relating to finance and the money system. He failed to dispose of Douglas as intended and likewise
his understanding of the money system and its faults. In fact as
far as I can see Hawtrey retreated from the contest because it was getting to the point of showing up the system and things about it not for public attention because Douglas couldnt be
silenced by argument and "facts".
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#2444 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 12 April 2004 - 01:13 PM

Bader; Let us say, people start from ground O. Peoples are involved in barter. And start using silver or gold or some sort of money as an exchange;
from this point;
Communism version; All money coming from sell going to state treasure , it uses money for defense, investing in infrastructure , schools, hospitals and to pay about equal wages for all citizens.
problems; Some people don
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#2445 Pliny

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Posted 12 April 2004 - 05:51 PM

Woj:

Good description of some of the inherent problems of government.
I can easily see those conditions occurring, however, I do not think they are problems of economics but more of government and power.

I read somewhere before that a rational form of government cannot probably be devised before a rational system of economics is in place.

Speaking of economics, Bader, I spent a few hours looking for your answer on "value assignment" but was not successful in finding it. I will take a look at the websites you mentioned to see if I can glean some understanding of your viewpoint before I tackle this again.

The Joan Roninson quote I liked.
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#2446 Slavic Union

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Posted 12 April 2004 - 07:39 PM

What would it take for Russia to be #1?


Why Number #1? .... to much of a target, too many problems. Better off being being number 2 or 3.
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#2447 donquijote

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Posted 13 April 2004 - 12:39 AM

<Why Number #1? .... to much of a target, too many problems. Better off being being number 2 or 3.>

Welcome Slavic
So long as Russia doesn't become next after Sierra Leone in the world ranking...;)

"If the average Norwegian lives 78 years, a child born in Sierra Leone will probaly die before reaching the age of 35. Sierra Leone's average life expectancy is 38.3 years, this is half that in Norway. If all Norwegians are literate and enjoy free education payed by the State, at the other extreme, only 36% of adults in Sierra Leone can read. The average salary in Norway is $45,000, but the average per capita income in Sierra Leone is only $470."

But I assure you we are only speaking about Russia becoming #1 in this sense...

"Economists, philosophers and political leaders have long emphasised human wellbeing as the sole purpose of economic development. A successful community is not that which has one wealthy member and nine living in poverty, but that one where all members of the community have succeeded in achieving a high standard of living. The HDR measures whether the national income of a nation is creating an environment for its people to enjoy a life with good health services, political freedoms, security against crime, greater access to education and a satisfying leisure time."

"When it comes to building a prosperous society, the Nordic countries should be taken a role model for the developing and developed nations of the world."

United Nations: Nordic Countries Best Place to Live in the World
The Nordic countries have the best standard of living in the world, as per the Human Development Report published by the United Nations

Best Standard of Living in the World

The Nordic countries are overall the best countries to live in the world, according to the Human Development Report which is published annually by the United Nations. Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Iceland figure among the top countries on the UN index because of their high levels of education, democracy, income and public health.

The Human Development Report (HDR) is an annual independent study commissioned by the United Nations Development Programme and published into more than a dozen languages. The HDR measures the wealth of nations by the standard of living of their population and considers several indexes related to life expectancy, education, economy and environment.

Economists, philosophers and political leaders have long emphasised human wellbeing as the sole purpose of economic development. A successful community is not that which has one wealthy member and nine living in poverty, but that one where all members of the community have succeeded in achieving a high standard of living. The HDR measures whether the national income of a nation is creating an environment for its people to enjoy a life with good health services, political freedoms, security against crime, greater access to education and a satisfying leisure time.

(snip)

Quality of Life, Income, Education and Life Expectancy

If we would only focus on per capita income statistics, we would perhaps be surprised to hear that the inhabitants of the small central European nation of Luxembourg are the wealthiest in the world, with an average salary of $53,780. The average salary in Norway is $45,000 but the Nordic countries are above all known for being an egalitarian society; of the seventeen richest countries in the world, Sweden ranks first as having the fewest people living in poverty and the fewest illiterate people, while other rich countries such us the United States have the the most, showing that stark inequality persists even in middle or high-income countries.

Education is one of the pillars of the Nordic society. Illiteracy is practically non existent from Iceland to Finland, and the free national education systems breed some of the most skilled workforce in the world. Moreover, when it comes to equality between women and men, all the five Nordic countries top the index and score again the highest; Iceland takes the lead in terms of emancipation, followed by Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Finland on the fifth position.

(snip)

Millions of people from the Scandinavian countries have emigrated out of their homelands during the last centuries to escape poverty and war. Today, the Nordic nations are prosperous and stable countries which have made impressive gains in the developing world and have demonstrated the possibility of eradicating poverty. When it comes to building a prosperous society, the Nordic countries should be taken a role model for the developing and developed nations of the world.

http://www.scandinav...ty/UNreport.htm
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#2448 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 13 April 2004 - 01:30 AM

Bader; **** I do not think they are problems of economics but more of government and power.***
Government in power is result of economic. Capitalism creates corruptive forces characteristic to this system .
Unfortunately your prophet is Frederic Bastiat instead of Karol Marx. And I think that Frederic Bastiat should write rather French madrigals instead the Law.:)
*Man can live and satisfy only by ceaseless labor and since labor is pain in itself
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#2449 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 13 April 2004 - 01:55 AM

Bader; *** a standard that indicates civilization perhaps started to go backwards
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#2450 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 13 April 2004 - 02:15 AM

Donq; *******a child born in Sierra Leone will probably die before reaching the age of 35. Sierra Leone's average life expectancy is 38.3 years; this is half that in Norway. If all Norwegians are literate and enjoy free education payed by the State, at the other extreme, only 36% of adults in Sierra Leone can read. The average salary in Norway is $45,000, but the average per capita income in Sierra Leone is only $470."******


It is result of colonial UK politic. Sierra Leone has diamonds; petroleum refining and uranium. Because Sierra Leone great resources UK and US are meddling in this country trying to get to its resources.
Norway never before was subject of English dependency. Mostly because very harsh climate. Now is really very rich because of oil.
I agree with you that education has future.
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#2451 donquijote

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Posted 13 April 2004 - 02:38 AM

<Mind you on Sept 11 George Nero put the blame on Muslims.
He has put them in the arena, men women and children fighting
Lion soldiers. >

Howdy Bader
You have touched an important point here. It was dawning on me today that the Vietnam massive protests weren't so much about the war but about DRAFTING. The fact that the children of the poor and the not-so-poor had to fight a war--and die. The Lion could't take the heat at the homefront and quit the war. So what didn't he learn? He learned that he could use the poor and the ignorant to fight his wars in exchange for things that are taken for granted in other civilized places like Canada: Free education, healthcare, no ghetto... So in the end the "Lion soldiers" may just be the poor and ignorant ghetto dwellers fighting the Lion's wars. And who's gonna cry for them?:(

I included this in this new version of the 'water well story'...

Meanwhile, an Owl --who had very good eyes-- had been observing life in the jungle, and thought this way: "Every time there's a dry season the little animals must come to the little dirty waterhole where the Lion waits for them... Had they been well fed and strong, he would have had to run after them and even risk resistance. *And, more importantly, the little animals are forced to fight the Lion's wars as the only way out of poverty*..."

But will Bush risk bringing back the draft? Well, maybe after February...;)

Will Bush Bring Back the Draft?

NEW YORK - When I was a kid, standing around the post office waiting for my mom to buy stamps, I entertained myself by flipping through the "wanted" notices clipped to the bulletin board. I was impressed by the fact that most of the people who'd done bad things didn't look all that evil in their mug shots. Mostly the felons looked tired. And poor. You could tell from their frayed collars.

Mixed in with the accused murderers, kidnappers and mail fraud conspirators (this was the post office, after all) were local kids wanted for dodging the draft. Their profiles didn't look anything like those of men wanted for tri-state killing sprees. The sections dedicated to "prior convictions" were blank and the government didn't have fingerprints for them. Draft evaders' photos came from their high school yearbooks where everyone turned a little to the right, grinning with optimism and framed by shaggy early '70s haircuts. Nevertheless, the message was clear. As far as the government was concerned, evading service in Vietnam was as bad as boosting a bank.

Whenever the feds needed more cannon fodder, they interrupted primetime sit-coms to broadcast a draft lottery. Two guys wearing American flag lapel pins would turn a metal tumbler and pluck out slips of paper bearing birthdays from 18 years earlier. "If you were born on April 4, 1951, you have 30 days to report to your local Selective Service bureau."

Shirley Jackson's short story "The Lottery" wasn't nearly as creepy.

"How long has this war been going on?" I asked my mom while Uncle Walt recited body counts along with the closing value of the Dow Jones Industrial Average. Born in 1963, I must have been about 8.

"Pretty much since you were born," she replied. Then she corrected herself. "Well, really even before that."

"Will it end before I turn 18?"

"I don't know. Probably not. I hope so."

They stopped the draft when I was 10; we lost the war two years later. I never had to resolve the terrible dilemma that drove those kids on the wanted posters to flee to Canada. Were they pacifists or were they wimps? Everyone knew that Vietnam wasn't winnable. Was it wrong to refuse to die for nothing, or was it good sense? Was defending the corrupt South Vietnamese regime of President Nguyen Van Thieu "fighting for your country"? Even if a war was both winnable and moral--World War II, say--was forcing a human being to risk death and dismemberment a form of slavery?

War is the riskiest and gravest endeavor that can be undertaken by a nation-state. Defensive combat, the struggle for self-preservation, is the only kind of war a just and prudent nation may wage. Unless an overwhelming majority of a country's citizens agree that a war is necessary--a real war like Iraq (news - web sites) or Vietnam, not a lark like Grenada or Panama-it cannot be won. And a country united by the consensus that it must fight doesn't need a draft. Citizens will line up to volunteer.

In early November, the Pentagon (news - web sites) website DefendAmerica.mil put out a call for applicants willing to serve on Selective Service System draft boards. "Serve Your Community and the Nation--Become a Selective Service System Local Board Member," the ad read. "If a military draft becomes necessary, approximately 2,000 local and appeal boards throughout America would decide which young men who submit a claim receive deferments, postponements or exemptions from military service, based on federal guidelines." Noting that the SSS hopes to fill its 8,000 draft board slots by spring 2005, many journalists are wondering aloud whether the Bush Administration plans to reinstate forced conscription of 18-to-26-year-olds after the election, just on time for invasions of Iran, Syria and/or North Korea (news - web sites).

Reports of a big uptick in the draft agency's budget from '03 to '04 abound, yet the feds claim that ramping up Selective Service is part of "the routine cycle of things." "There are no secret discussions," says SSS spokesman Pat Schuback. "We aren't doing any planning that we don't do on a routine basis." Yet they refuse to issue a categorical denial. A February Surprise, perhaps?

Our armed forces are stretched dangerously thin. 60,000 of the 130,000 troops stationed in Iraq come from the National Guard or reserves. 90,000 more are serving in Kuwait, Afghanistan (news - web sites), South Korea (news - web sites), Kosovo and Macedonia. Demoralized by low pay and long tours of duty under harsh conditions--why won't Bush invade someplace with nice weather and hot babes?--49 percent of soldiers told Stars and Stripes newspaper that they won't re-enlist. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and top brass say they prefer volunteer professionals to surly conscripts, but in the end they may not have a choice.

This much is certain: If Bush resumes his neocolonial landgrab after "re"election, he'll have to bring back the draft. And a new generation of young men, ordered to disrupt their lives to feed the vanity and bank accounts of a cabal of gangsters, will ponder whether to flee or fight.

http://www.truthout....3/120603B.shtml
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#2452 donquijote

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Posted 13 April 2004 - 02:48 AM

http://engforum.prav...?threadid=71413
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#2453 donquijote

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Posted 13 April 2004 - 02:56 AM

<It is result of colonial UK politic. Sierra Leone has diamonds; petroleum refining and uranium. Because Sierra Leone great resources UK and US are meddling in this country trying to get to its resources.
Norway never before was subject of English dependency. Mostly because very harsh climate. Now is really very rich because of oil.
I agree with you that education has future. >

Howdy Woj, somehow we end up agreeing.

Well, Norway has mineral resources galore, but Denmard doesn't, so it must be something else. And Sierra Leone has plenty resources and so Russia, but they may end up next to each other if they don't change their policies.

I'm sure we can make Sierra Leone #1 too, just that it may take a bit longer...

"Sierra Leone is an extremely poor African nation with tremendous inequality in income distribution. It does have substantial mineral, agricultural, and fishery resources. However, the economic and social infrastructure is not well developed, and serious social disorders continue to hamper economic development, following a 11-year civil war. About two-thirds of the working-age population engages in subsistence agriculture. Manufacturing consists mainly of the processing of raw materials and of light manufacturing for the domestic market. Plans continue to reopen bauxite and rutile mines shut down during the conflict. The major source of hard currency consists of the mining of diamonds. The fate of the economy depends upon the maintenance of domestic peace and the continued receipt of substantial aid from abroad, which is essential to offset the severe trade imbalance and to supplement government revenues."

(who can doubt the CIA?);)

http://www.cia.gov/c...ok/geos/sl.html
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#2454 Pliny

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Posted 13 April 2004 - 06:08 AM

Hi Woj,

Law is justice. Bastiat is saying what it should be, not what it is.
We know that it is not just today.

DonQ,
>>>The fate of the economy depends upon the maintenance of domestic peace and the continued receipt of substantial aid from abroad, which is essential to offset the severe trade imbalance and to supplement government revenues."

(who can doubt the CIA?)

Of course aid is essential. How else can they keep their finger in the pie? A blatant pretense to allow meddling in national affairs while letting their corporate buddies rip off the resources.

My, oh my, I think my blood pressure is going up.
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#2455 Bader

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Posted 13 April 2004 - 10:17 AM

Howdy Woj:
I support your point law doesnt equate with Justice, law equates with power. The Lion gets the Lion share because he has the biggest (lion share of) influence, sounds like justice but is merely the law (of the jungle).
law is an attempt, that gets ambushed, to try and effect justice.
Politics, law and money are the three wise monkeys trained by the previleged. They dont see hear or report anything wrong
they just impersonally function to order.
The people who pay taxes, pay for the Courts, the law making
(politicians salaries and running of govt), pay the Judges salaries as all Court staff, so the people own the law and justice system
and when they have a legal issue to be resolved they have to go the a private professional and pay to get the benefit of what they own. That is justice! Just like borrowing "money" a private
corporation creates out of nothing because the borrower has the credit/asset.
Same in politics the people have to go to the political party reps,
when any political party consists of a very small part of the population, to try and get what they want- yet the people own the govt, the bureaucrats and the polies.
Same smell in all three avenues.

It just reminded me of a quote from a young Australian on a video made in Aust. about the money system. The young man said something both dumb and profound-
It doesnt matter who you vote for the government still gets in!
I expect you would have loved that one Pliny.

Starting from scratch- barter:
Thomas Jefferson said: " If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, thereby deflation, the banks....will deprive the people of all
property until their children wake up homeless on the continent
their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people to whom it properly belongs."
May sound a bit extreme to some, especially in the past, but people are now starting to live in the parks because they lost all property, the dollar is incapable of redeeming itself, even by war.
The Russians and Argentinians know what losing (state)property means amongst many others-because of debt.
Abraham Lincoln said that one of the greatest duties a govt can perform is to issue its people their own money to facilitate their
enterprize. THat was in my words but I dont have the quote on hand.
A universal medium of exchange is needed to become a modern
society, commonly in the form of notes and coins. There are various factors that people include in a definition of money but the
first reguirement is that it be held in trust- that if one parts with property (eg goods one produced) in exchange for it, it will be
?ommonly accepted by any other person when one comes to spend it.
For security and large sums involved checks/cheques and cards
are practical as intructions to the banks as to what you have spent and to whom so the bookkeeping can be done that will
honour the transaction that took place between the persons
involved.
The next thing vital after having money you can trust and a banking/bookkeeping system you can trust is to have a money
creation and cancellation system. At this point people have to decide ( and govts wont put this to the people, whether capitalist or communist) who should have this power.
If the state has this power it will use the money to regulate the economy and freedom of the people to keep itself strong and indispensible and conversely the people weak and dependant.
The capitalist private bankers do the same, so that the people have two forms of govt over them, one visible and the other invisible.
The answer then is to create a credit authority with the responsibility of a central bank of the nation that is autonomous of govt control, transparently run so watchgroups and political parties are able to monitor it. Govt should have to conform to democratic standards in oreder fot it to be supplied for its budget
which would be huge force (power) on behalf of the people to not only keep Govt honest but democracy strong.
In other words a dictatorship of a party in office having the numbers to pass everything cant abuse the public money system
for their own ends. A referenda would be the best way to prove to the Chief Credit Authority the right to new money.
Creating its own money a nation wont be charging itself interest, but there could be the posibility of loans which would have to be repaid with a service charge. Otherwise the bulk of the money would be debt free meaning it is for use to facilitate goods and services both public and private and gets cancelled. Profits and savings arent cancelled until they are spent.
Because costs consist of two main types of expenses- those that are paid for labour eg wages etc, and the other -everything else.
While wages are included in many things eg raw materials, someone had to mine/produce/ package/transport/advertise etc
but since all remuneration is the purchasing power the costs and the profit margin are always going to be greater than the total of disposable income. Under the present system people borrow to
make up the shortfall in the system which affects their purchasing power in the future which ensures the bankers they will be back often- nice for them- no coincidence!.
The way around that is to supply the system not just the workers
with the medium of exchange that is required for the system to be
sustainable and a servant, not a ruler, or a protection racket for
an elite. THus there is no debt and interest costs, there is no creating jobs and wasting resouces and the environment purely
for the sake of creating employment just to get more money into circulation to balance the disposable income with the goods and services to prevent inflation and deflation. Think about this, it doesnt cure the problem its onlya temporary messure like an asprin that dulls the pain but doesnt remove the cause. It becomes a form of inflation, ever increasing the dosage in order the cover the last expansion.
Thus the world looks on in horror as this happens and all they see is the biggest economy (US) gobbling up more than its share
of the worlds resources. So they blame the Yanks as they look on their life style and the bankers escape scot-free. Meanwhile all other nations under the debt system are doing exactly the same- ever increasing dosage to prevent a collapse.
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#2456 Bader

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Posted 13 April 2004 - 11:00 AM

Heres the left hook.

I have just explained the need to expand the disposable income to sell what has been produced.
Here is the other part.
Nearly 100% of the money supply is bank credit- created at the tap of a keyboard number into a borrowers account. In due course that "money" has to be repaid plus the interest owing.
We can see where the principle is coming from because we know it is in the system/economy. The interest owing on it and all the other loans hasnt been created, has it? Well now how fortunate for the banker, he is going to be called on by society to lend some more in order to prevent a loss/ bad debts in the case
of individuals and a collapse/recession etc economy wide.
Little wonder there is an 80% business failure rate.
If 80% of travelers crashed on highways, on aircraft, ships etc,
80% of building fell down etc, something would be done about it.
Fortunate again for the bankers their system is internal and not transparent, shrouded in misrepresentation and mystic and the politicians and media faithfully repeat the misinformation. Anyone
among their ranks who doesnt soon feels it in their future prospects.
So its musical chairs which decrees someone to drop out all the time.
Another factor is the inflated costs through financial costs being
added in at every point a business entity is involved in the chain from raw material to the retail shelf.
In the public sector as the debt spirals up the output in services eg health spirals down. And the rightwingers say it is only because of inefficient govt bureaucracy because there is no competition.
Well both corporations and govts hire university trained business
managers who sat the same exams and I have yet to hear anyone say the 7 Billion debt of the US is pure inefficiency!

New Zealand followed the free market reforms formula closer than
anyone else and we saw Govt get bigger and more powerful
over the nation but less responsible, including doubling the tax system!
You cant hide ideology.
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#2457 donquijote

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Posted 13 April 2004 - 01:31 PM

>>>The fate of the economy depends upon the maintenance of domestic peace and the continued receipt of substantial aid from abroad, which is essential to offset the severe trade imbalance and to supplement government revenues."

(who can doubt the CIA?)

<Of course aid is essential. How else can they keep their finger in the pie? A blatant pretense to allow meddling in national affairs while letting their corporate buddies rip off the resources.

My, oh my, I think my blood pressure is going up. >

Howdy Pliny
It seems you know how the jungle works...;)

Aid is essential...so they buy the key officials--or should I say that they appropriate it without the Big Country knowing?--who, in turn, will give the Big Country "special prices" on commodities. Then the officials invest that money in the Big Country--so they have a safe haven--before they are caught, and the process begins anew with another democratic contender. "Banana Republic" is called...;)

PS: Chatting with friends at Pravda who also know how the jungle works should help your blood pressure. I get it too when watching the official media...:cool:
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#2458 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 13 April 2004 - 02:26 PM

Bader; I think that financial institution in capitalism is an independent reigning body;
independent from government, independent from Congress and president.
Financial institution , it is Dictatorship organization in so called ****democratic country*** :D
When money is power, Greenspan and Co is power in US. Balcerowicz in Poland.

These institutions setting the base interest rate paying by borrower, interest rate paying by bank to the people on their money deposit, and setting the interest pay by banks to the government .
Of course if money were to be secured by gold, bank wouln
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#2459 Pliny

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Posted 13 April 2004 - 03:19 PM

Well, I guess we are all agreed that the socio-economic system is flawed.

Bader: I did like that one. Woj's quote form the Baron was good too.

Woj has a point about the financial system being independent of government et al. How do the people maintain control of the system you describe? The more you describe your system the more I think it is exactly what exists - with the exception of allowing debt. That isn't a minor point, I agree, and is perhaps the major fault of the current system other than the rats that run it.

For money to be held in trust it has to have some value, don't you think? Bankers were supposed to hold our "money" in trust and wound up stealing it all and giving us debt in return.

The 7 trillion debt of the US is a staggering sum and I think Greenspan knows exactly what he is doing and it ain't in the interests of the citizenry.
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#2460 donquijote

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Posted 14 April 2004 - 01:48 AM

Howdy guys, I must confess that money matters turn me off, but why reinvent the Mediterranean when we got some real models out there?

Mondragon Cooperative Complex

Cooperative Economics

Local Cooperative Economics means just that--- an idea of local people cooperating with each other to provide for the essentials of living. Cooperative here means that people work together to develop self-reliant, locally-based and community controlled economies within a given bioregion. This could be a mixture of cooperative, employee-owned, and private-owned businesses. [This is exactly what I propose...to have OPTIONS.];)

The idea of community-based economic development has been generally considered by those in the field of development to involve the infusion of outside monetary and technical support. However, this generally has not reversed poverty in any significant way--- in fact, poverty is worse today. The gap between rich and poor continues to grow. Encouraging local people to become competitors in the gladiator combat known as the "global economic order" is misguided.

Instead, we need to help build up local cooperative economic newtorks that help *to create local people's banks to reinvest the capital*. Capital can be "turned" in a local community to revitilize the local economy.

Fortunately, there are many examples of cooperative efforts that are community -owned and controlled--- where development decisions are made by local people and not simply well-intentioned outsiders or by "neo-colonial" interests.

http://home.earthlin...pmondragon.html
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