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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#2661 Pliny

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 12:51 AM

>>>WE shouldn-t pay for American own problems.<<<


I agree. I think they wanted control of this lucrative product.

Bader:

>>>The Chinese own the panama canal these days is what I understood.<<<

True. I haven't seen it in the news yet but I don't pay too close attention to the mainstream media.
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#2662 Bader

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 12:56 AM

I think the list of what the American people lost as posted by Pliny is far greater than poppies to Slavs.
If poppy people believe all life results from chemicals who can
misunderstand them?

By the way Woj Giap didnt fight for independance he fought for International Socialism. National imperialism was destroyed for
global imperialism to prepare for global govt. This is why the US never fought to win in Viet Nam as in Iraq today.
Cuba probably claims to be independant, free, united, democratric and at peace as well. South Africa would claim this as well no doubt where the ANC were marxists and it was kept a secret by western media. Gadafi is boot licking now to join the order out of chaos club.
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#2663 donquijote

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 01:33 AM

<Bring colony the freedom;
it was *music and light Malta -s celebration *dedicated to Malta joining EU enlargement.
Besides Malta program, Warsaw and Berlin concerts were the embarrassing festivities.
They were opened by unknown for me reason, by American fat lady , Suzan Graham with her performance of aria from Carmen. She might substitute dirty soul of Mrs Albright from war on Yugoslavia.
Next was speech , this time very thin English lady who, with her retarded African Queen look and orange hair talked nonsense about Freedom for Estonia.>

(catching up after *another* computer breakdown):confused:

Woj, I can see the high quality of the programming, but I want to know about is the commercials. What was it, chewing gum, McDonald's or SUVs? They may say more than the actual programs;)
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#2664 donquijote

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 03:37 AM

<Charity must concern itself with compassion. Justice need not.

I have one thing to say about justice and that is that when criminality becomes a major concern of society, as a whole, then justice is not being done and justice itself is corrupted.>

Howdy Pliny
OK, I gave you an example of how compassion became a problem when the church wanted to feed the homeless at the park. I also had a problem with the homeless sleeping in front of my apartment, and the policewoman told me that I wasn't "compassionate"--and almost attacked me. How about *my freedom* to enjoy a day at the park or have a beautiful view out of my window?

I think JUSTICE should be emphasized. The homeless, for example, should be given OPTIONS where and how to work, or be institutionalized. I can sum it up as: JUSTICE IS HAVING OPTIONS.
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#2665 donquijote

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 04:14 AM

<When we stop visiting restraunts we hurt our fellow citizens not the Lion. When we stop being charitable we hurt the victims of the Lion not the Lion. As long as we dont show support for each other the Lion is more comfortable. The free market- survival of the fittest-everyman for himself has magnified that. >

Howdy Bader
Marxist rethoric aside, the hope lies in the Proles, the dispossessed. Not even the restaurants owners, or any kind of owners for that matter, would support us--at least at first. The problem is they fear those employees may some day become more expensive. Once though they see the wheel of history turning they may jump on the bandwagon.;)

But I was also looking at it from another viewpoint, the more you spend the more taxes you pay and the more you got to work, which feeds the Lion. Gandhi realized that and preached simplicity, but we don't have to go that far. I know some "pacifists" though who roll a gas-guzzling SUV, and that, my good friend, is HYPOCRISY...;) The first line of defense--of course we can do many more things--is BOYCOTT. "DON'T FEED THE LION!"

Why Boycott America?
Well one solution is not civil disobedience but commercial disobedience - quite simply to stop buying products made by large American corporations. From cars to cola, from sportswear to software, stopping buying products from large American corporates sends out a loud clear message that we are have noticed what is going on, and we are not happy with it!

http://www.boycottamerica.org/
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#2666 donquijote

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 04:46 AM

<Step one is goodwill- natural justice between neighbours respecting each other. Spontaneous and healthy, not plastic
conforming units subject to the carrot and the stick methods.
It is so common the see people mixing the two and not realising.
There needs to be mulit-choice coop life styles of community.
These addresses the fact society will not immediately all agree on what is correct social behaviour etc to effect step one. So a variety over time will develope commonalities and learn from each other while avoiding the "top down" authoritative approach and the increased madness of jungles of complex laws that already strangles sane natural living and making justice a lucrative game
more then about justice- which Pliny identifies also. >

What's first, the chicken or the egg?;) Well, I think there are two ways: the Socialist way--which can be like Scandinavia--or the Libertarian way--like the Swiss. The former emphasizes *society*, the latter, the *individual*, but we can have coops within the Swiss system, so WE MAY HAVE THE BEST OF BOTH WORLDS.

And yet we should not lose sight that REGULATIONS MAY HAVE A PLACE IN SOCIETY. The German Autobahn may provide some light. American roads can be said to be chaotic--save for speed, which is another money-collection scheme for the Lion. The Autobahn though cracks down on small things like giving the finger to other drivers, which is something common in America, but allows you to go fast, VERY FAST so long as you follow certain regulations. Eventually those regulations become good habits, which allows for the smooth flow of traffic--or society. Everybody's a winner.;)

That's why I say--and you did too--that the system must be at the service of the human being, not the other way around. Let's get the best of everything and experiment and build on experience. CHANGE SHOULD BE ENCOURAGED.
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#2667 donquijote

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 05:47 AM

<<<'It isn't noisy protesters that should bother Americans," she said. ''What should bother Americans are the quiet feelings of anger and disgust filling the hearts of people who normally would be your best friends. America is becoming such a bully and a boor -- deaf to every voice except its own. Demanding its own way, 'Now, now, now!', and suggesting that anyone who disagrees or argues is an enemy. That frightens me. I think it frightens many people."

Her view was echoed by many of the scores of people on four continents interviewed by Globe reporters in recent weeks. Even in former citidels of pro-America sentiment in Asia, Europe, and Latin America, people are starting to chafe and complain. They are increasingly irritated by what many South Koreans facetiously refer to as the Pax Americana -- a world politically dominated by Washington, a world increasingly steeped in US moral values, and a world awash in American culture.>>>

The way I see it, it is not so much that the world is in love with American junk food, Michael Jackson and chase-and-bang movies, but that people are not given better alternatives. I know for a fact that people, even in America, want to see a better culture...];)

One thing I'm aware of though is that we must be able to compete--and win--in the cultural arena. That's where my "secret recipes" come into place...;)

<<<Many of the same people uncomfortable with the powerful economic and military reach of the United States nonetheless still hold American culture and egalitarian values in high regard. American movies, fast foods, and brand names dominate the global marketplace not because of any sinister snuffing out of competition but because people almost everywhere -- from Soweto to Shanghai -- are genuinely enraptured by Hollywood's latest and really do enjoy eating Kentucky Fried Chicken or wearing fashions from the Gap. Activists opposed to free trade may trash US fast-food outlets and retail chains as symbols of cultural imperialism, but no one seriously disputes that these zealots are vastly outnumbered by aficionados of the American style of life.>>>

And this African man thinks the lion is right. The majority of the people around the world, don't...;)

<<<In the African nation of Rwanda, however, Sylvester Rushomwintwal said that it is only natural that America would relentlessly hunt down its enemies. ''What Al Qaeda did [with the 9/11 attacks] was like an insult to the might of the US," said the 46-year-old owner of a recycling company in Kigali. ''In Rwanda, we have a saying: 'Don't go and touch the mouth of the lion.' "

But the king of the jungle is more feared than loved. Less than three years after militant Islamic hijackers smashed the World Trade Center in history's bloodiest terror assault, it is the United States that evokes shudders with its roars and retaliations.>>>

http://www.boston.co...us_grow_louder/
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#2668 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 08:33 AM

Pliny ; *>>>Here's an example. Before 1914 an American could pass through life without being especially aware of any branch of the national government but the post office. He could travel abroad or leave the country with no need of passport or permission. Immigrants arrived with little or no restriction but tests for infectious diseases and had to report to nobody once here. Tariffs were low and used for revenue only, not for reinforcing economic or foreign policy. The national government paid no attention to foreign currency exchanges and had almost no influence on the economy. No drugs were prohibited.

Most Americans today would view such freedoms as unusual, even potentially alarming. A move to restore them would be seen as dangerously radical. That's a massive ideological change.
....<<<
We have lost so much in such a short time.*

Don
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#2669 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 09:24 AM

Bader; * Lost treasures
I think the list of what the American people lost as posted by Pliny is far greater than poppies to Slavs*

You are wrong;:) let remind us a piece of American treasure ; theCarnegie hall historic concert hall at Seventh Avenue and 57th Street in New York City. The building opened in May 1891 and named for the industrialist Andrew Carnegie or Carnegie Mellon University private, coeducational institution of higher learning in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania named after Millionaire's Andrew Carnegie . He was also one of the most important philanthropists of his era. :) Andrew Carnegie's life embodied the American dream: the immigrant who went from rags to riches, the self-made man who became a captain of industry, the king of steel.:)
And now about The Homestead Strike, episode from Andrew Carnegie's life -- the bitter conflict in 1892 at his steel plant in Homestead, Pennsylvania. Carnegie's involvement in the union-breaking action left many men dead or wounded .

The conflict at Homestead arose at a time when the fast-changing American economy had stumbled and conflicts between labor and management had flared up all over the country. In 1892, labor declared a general strike in New Orleans. Coal miners struck in Tennessee, as did railroad switchmen in Buffalo, New York and copper miners in Idaho.

Carnegie's mighty steel industry was not immune to the downturn. In 1890, the price of rolled-steel products started to decline, dropping from $35 a gross ton to $22 early in 1892. In the face of depressed steel prices, Henry C. Frick, general manager of the Homestead plant that Carnegie largely owned, was determined to cut wages and break the Amalgamated Association of Iron and Steel Workers, one of the strongest craft unions in the country.

Behind the scenes, Carnegie supported Frick's plans. In the spring of 1892, Carnegie had Frick produce as much armor plate as possible before the union's contract expired at the end of June. If the union failed to accept Frick's terms, Carnegie instructed him to shut down the plant and wait until the workers buckled. "We... approve of anything you do," Carnegie wrote from England in words he would later come to regret. "We are with you to the end."

With Carnegie's carte blanche support, Frick moved to slash wages. Plant workers responded by hanging Frick in effigy. At the end of June, Frick began closing down his open hearth and armor-plate mills, locking out 1,100 men. On June 25th, Frick announced he would no longer negotiate with the union; now he would only deal with workers individually. Leaders of Amalgamated were willing to concede on almost every level -- except on the dissolution of their union. Workers tried to reach the Carnegie who had strongly defended labor's right to unionize. He had departed on his annual and lengthy vacation, traveling to a remote Scottish castle on Loch Rannoch. He proved inaccessible to all -- including the press and to Homestead's workers -- except for Frick.

"This is your chance to re-organize the whole affair," Carnegie wrote his manager. "Far too many men required by Amalgamated rules." Carnegie believed workers would agree to relinquish their union to hold on to their jobs.

It was a severe miscalculation. Although only 750 of the 3,800 workers at Homestead belonged to the union, 3,000 of them met and voted overwhelmingly to strike. Frick responded by building a fence three miles long and 12 feet high around the steelworks plant, adding peepholes for rifles and topping it with barbed wire. Workers named the fence "Fort Frick."

Frick turned to the enforcers he had employed previously: the Pinkerton Detective Agency's private army, often used by industrialists of the era. At midnight on July 5, tugboats pulled barges carrying hundreds of Pinkerton detectives armed with Winchester rifles up the Monongahela River. But workers stationed along the river spotted the private army. A Pittsburgh journalist wrote that at about 3 A.M. a "horseman riding at breakneck speed dashed into the streets of Homestead giving the alarm as he sped along." Thousands of strikers and their sympathizers rose from their sleep and went down to the riverbank in Homestead.

When the private armies of business arrived, the crowd warned the Pinkertons not to step off the barge. But they did. No one knows which side shot first, but under a barrage of fire, the Pinkertons retreated back to their barges. For 14 hours, gunfire was exchanged. Strikers rolled a flaming freight train car at the barges. They tossed dynamite to sink the boats and pumped oil into the river and tried to set it on fire. By the time the Pinkertons surrendered in the afternoon three detectives and nine workers were dead or dying. The workers declared victory in the bloody battle, but it was a short-lived celebration.

The governor of Pennsylvania ordered state militia into Homestead. Armed with the latest in rifles and Gatling guns, they took over the plant. Strikebreakers who arrived on locked trains, often unaware of their destination or the presence of a strike, took over the steel mills. Four months after the strike was declared, the men's resources were gone and they returned to work. Authorities charged the strike leaders with murder and 160 other strikers with lesser crimes. The workers' entire Strike Committee also was arrested for treason. However, sympathetic juries would convict none of the men.

All the strikers leaders were blacklisted. The Carnegie Company successfully swept unions out of Homestead and reduced it to a negligible factor in the steel mills throughout the Pittsburgh area.


"It's easy to say that Carnegie was a hypocrite,", it's being torn between wanting to pose as a great democrat and liberal and at the same time wanting to make sure Carnegie Steel came out on top." http://www.britannic...gie&ct=&fuzzy=N :confused:
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#2670 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 10:08 AM

Donq; *what about the commercials?
<Bring colony the freedom;
it was *music and light Malta -s celebration *dedicated to Malta joining EU enlargement
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#2671 Pliny

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 03:57 PM

Andrew carnegie was a close friend of Rockefeller. I wouldn't be surprised if Rockefeller was an advisor to Carnegie as regards the above passage.

Carnegie, admired by most Americans, as a great industrialist and philanthropist, was cut from the same cloth as Rockefeller.
Rockefeller, was however, the master of deceit. He controlled most of the oil and transportation lines, rail-steel supplied by Carnegie, and set up a vast network of businesses which he held in trust and controlled but a cursory look never revealed his name in connection with them. He controlled prices this way by creating an apparency of competition when there wasn't any. As you know he despised competition.
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#2672 Bader

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Posted 04 May 2004 - 08:09 AM

Howdy DonQ:

To use your term- the question of the chicken or the egg-
charity is voluntary in general but in a particular church group a moral obligation. The people didnt go to the parks because the church was going to bring food there. The food followed the people.
The main problem is socio-economic not moral in my view. Take away the food and the situation remains as it was before the food arrived.

I got your point about not feeding the Lion. I was just making the point of it being more desirable if we didnt voluntarily go into divide and rule rather than being pro-social and united. I agree
the majority of business people wouldnt appreciate what
others are doing and if we were in the same position we would
want to protect ones livelyhood and investment although they can be supportive if they were not so selfishly narrowminded for their own world - who cares about anyone else (while anyone else is the next customer around the corner!).
Philosophically you are correct - the "dont feed the Lion" is wiser
than rebellion/revolt since he has the power to arrest disorder.
The three step plan suggested was called revolt but rather it is
the soft option (soft not meaning weak, but unobtrusive and non-
confrontational) and one of the outcomes could well be a
new disposition that become an everyday practice of not feeding the Lion including not conforming mentally and culturally in a similar way that it is mentioned on current posts about US culture
and those who live there want something better and thus dont fiancially support the trash industry which is the same as bouycoting which can be political, cultural, health, moral etc
based.
The drive for lower wages impacts back on the business world
as lower wages means people for-go buying because they cant afford things and thus the business world suffers. This is because of the false economic reasoning subordinate to the false
money-system plus the Hegelian/Marxist dialectic materialism
of the worker v. the boss/business. Businesses are in the jungle too but they think they are superior only because of materialism
when the citizens of the jungle should recognise they have a common dictator.
I dont think of Scandanavian countries as socialist, rather liberal
( as in neo-socialist) capitalism which typified the western world up until the free-market revolution- about 1980 on.
I have yet to see anything that suggests to me that Switz. is libertarian. I assumed they were much the same as SCand. but more democratic in practice. Libertarian to me means small govt and free-market economics. What actually is their social Policy
re health education benefits etc?

Woj:
Thanks for the addition to pliny's list of losses in the US.
-McKinley.

Pliny made the point "before 1914". It is to be expected, given the creation of the Fed. Reserve in 1913 which began to suck the lifeblood out of the nation and increase influence over govt policy.
Which bring out the point Pliny made about Rockefellers hating competition- free enterprise.
The world wars were also used to change society dramatically which people just accepted being distracted which would have caused hell-to-pay in peace time if some political party had of tried. Note the changes since Sept 11.
Neither those changes nor the invasions of Islam were the aim of al qaeda. Since they couldnt have had the motive for these outcomes, who did?
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#2673 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 04 May 2004 - 12:40 PM

Donq;* Well, I think there are two ways: the Socialist way--which can be like Scandinavia--or the Libertarian way--like the Swiss. The former emphasizes *society*, the latter, the *individual*, but we can have coops within the Swiss system, so WE MAY HAVE THE BEST OF BOTH WORLDS.
But I was also looking at it from another viewpoint, the more you spend the more taxes you pay and the more you got to work, which feeds the Lion.*

Best answer to it is the Pliny statement ;

"The level of trust, co-operation and compassion in a nation's citizenry is inversely proportional to the level of taxation, in whatever form, by it's government." Pliny
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#2674 donquijote

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Posted 04 May 2004 - 12:42 PM

"Those in power are frightened by the rebel, the non-conformist. They know that even small acts of resistance can have unforeseen consequences."

<To use your term- the question of the chicken or the egg-
charity is voluntary in general but in a particular church group a moral obligation. The people didnt go to the parks because the church was going to bring food there. The food followed the people.
The main problem is socio-economic not moral in my view. Take away the food and the situation remains as it was before the food arrived.>

Howdy Bader
Well, I think the food reinforces the problem. Perhaps we should use the same principle of *people follow food* and put the food in a coop and have them work *lightly, according to their capacity* in order to earn it. Because if I was a homeless, having lived without a lion for a long time, and you tell me that I got to work and have a lion watching my back, I rather stay homeless!;)

<I got your point about not feeding the Lion. I was just making the point of it being more desirable if we didnt voluntarily go into divide and rule rather than being pro-social and united. I agree
the majority of business people wouldnt appreciate what
others are doing and if we were in the same position we would
want to protect ones livelyhood and investment although they can be supportive if they were not so selfishly narrowminded for their own world - who cares about anyone else (while anyone else is the next customer around the corner!).
Philosophically you are correct - the "dont feed the Lion" is wiser
than rebellion/revolt since he has the power to arrest disorder.
The three step plan suggested was called revolt but rather it is
the soft option (soft not meaning weak, but unobtrusive and non-
confrontational) and one of the outcomes could well be a
new disposition that become an everyday practice of not feeding the Lion including not conforming mentally and culturally in a similar way that it is mentioned on current posts about US culture
and those who live there want something better and thus dont fiancially support the trash industry which is the same as bouycoting which can be political, cultural, health, moral etc
based.>

Exactly, "You Lion got all the power in the world, but that power comes from all of us. So we got to shake off all that indifference and stop feeding you. In the meantime, *I* ain't feeding you, stupid hungry Lion!";)

THE POWER OF TRUTH
"To survive, Power must create its own consciousness, its own system of beliefs. Truth is the enemy of Power. Any act that challenges the false premises that Power-s world is constructed upon is a threat to Power.

Power craves order. Chaos is the enemy of Power. Any act, no matter how innocuous it may seem on the surface, that disturbs the smooth-running social engine is a threat to Power.

The committed resistance of one person, whether acknowledged or not by official historians, has the potential to set off seismic waves that can echo down throughout history. Those in power are frightened by the rebel, the non-conformist. They know that even small acts of resistance can have unforeseen consequences. Power-s Palace of Illusion is built on shaky ground that is always subject to destabilization and avalanche."

http://www.fragments...x/powonetx.html

<The drive for lower wages impacts back on the business world
as lower wages means people for-go buying because they cant afford things and thus the business world suffers. This is because of the false economic reasoning subordinate to the false
money-system plus the Hegelian/Marxist dialectic materialism
of the worker v. the boss/business. Businesses are in the jungle too but they think they are superior only because of materialism
when the citizens of the jungle should recognise they have a common dictator.>

They are in the upper part of the food chain, or perhaps they have that illusion by having people under them. That's the problem...:confused:

<I dont think of Scandanavian countries as socialist, rather liberal
( as in neo-socialist) capitalism which typified the western world up until the free-market revolution- about 1980 on.
I have yet to see anything that suggests to me that Switz. is libertarian. I assumed they were much the same as SCand. but more democratic in practice. Libertarian to me means small govt and free-market economics. What actually is their social Policy
re health education benefits etc?>

Their policy is more of teaching them how to fish, but, as I said, you got no choice but to work for a lion, and that's what we mean to address: being able to fish *without* having a lion on your back!

Note: I use the terms "socialist" and "libertarian" to mean, "The Scandinavian and the Swiss are somewhat on that path and this is what they have accomplished." It can give us some clues to their limitations and to their potential. Of course, we mean to go above and beyond them.

"In Switzerland, rising unemployment in the early 1990s forced a rethink about the objectives of policy towards those in receipt of social assistance. The underlying objective of social assistance remains that of ensuring that recipients are provided with an adequate standard of living. If Switzerland is able to pay relatively high levels of benefit, it is partly because it has persisted with some unusual provisions: social assistance is repaid in the same way as debt; the recipient-s family may be called upon to contribute; and local politicians are involved in decisions to allocate benefits. Even though many cantons are reluctant to apply these rules strictly, the prospect of running up debt and the fear that the family may be contacted discourages many potential recipients from claiming benefit. Across Switzerland, much greater stress is now laid upon training and subsidised work than previously, though as yet the focus has been more on those who have been unemployed for a few months, rather than on the long-term unemployed. Cantons may have to explore new ways to ensure that even the most disadvantaged in society can benefit from the recent upswing in the labour market."

http://www1.oecd.org...sh/pb99-24a.htm
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#2675 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 04 May 2004 - 12:50 PM

Bader; *If poppy people believe all life results from chemicals who can misunderstand them?*

Who create chemicals?
Still if you think about horror of surgery on West,( I saw Rembrandt( ? )picture , where only alcohol was used as a anesthetic , you would think with more respect about Slavs. :)
Slavs performed the brain surgery and bone cutting procedures *trepanning
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#2676 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 04 May 2004 - 12:55 PM

Donq; *In the African nation of Rwanda, however, Sylvester Rushomwintwal said that it is only natural that America would relentlessly hunt down its enemies.*

Donq. you make racial generalizations, suggesting that all blacks are idiots, when it is not truth.
Zimbabwe left Commonwealth and Congo are very persistent in their fight for freedom and independence.:)

BTV; Some even suggest that rather Al-Quida hunts US than in contrary.
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#2677 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 05 May 2004 - 12:55 AM

U.S. Set for Long Haul in Afghanistan
KARSHI-KHANABAD AIR BASE, Uzbekistan - The din of bulldozers and steamrollers competes with the roar of aircraft engines at this U.S. outpost for the anti-terror campaign in Afghanistan (news - web sites). The Americans are digging in for the long haul
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#2678 donquijote

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Posted 05 May 2004 - 02:42 AM

<Donq. you make racial generalizations, suggesting that all blacks are idiots, when it is not truth.
Zimbabwe left Commonwealth and Congo are very persistent in their fight for freedom and independence.:)>

You got a very powerful imagination. I never said, or even implied, that all blacks have the same opinion, let alone that they are stupid. Actually the most enthusiastic supporters of this campaign are *African Americans*. They are probably the first victims of the Law of the Jungle...;)
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#2679 donquijote

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Posted 05 May 2004 - 02:53 AM

<<Donq; *The committed resistance of one person, whether acknowledged or not by official historians, has the potential to set off seismic waves that can echo down throughout history. Those in power are frightened by the rebel, the non-conformist. They know that even small acts of resistance can have unforeseen consequences. Power-s Palace of Illusion is built on shaky ground that is always subject to destabilization and avalanche."*>>

<Conclusion Donq; Power doesn-t have to worry ; 3 is more than 1.>

You don't have to go very far to see it works...;)

NONVIOLENCE WORKS! Arizona office spreads the word on nonviolence
Wondering how best to spread the message of nonviolence after September 11-and show that it can work-AFSC staff in the Tucson, Arizona, office decided to show half-hour segments from the PBS series "A Force More Powerful: Nonviolence at Work." Calling the project NONVIOLENCE WORKS!, these success stories of nonviolence direct action include the South Africa economic boycott; *the solidarity movement in Poland*; the salt march in India; the Danish resistance movement during WWII; the plebiscite in Chile that led to the end of the Pinochet regime; and the lunch-counter sit-ins in Nashville, Tennessee.

http://www.afsc.org/az/tshirtbg.htm
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#2680 DirtyHarry

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Posted 05 May 2004 - 03:36 AM

USA@Republicans Walk Out Of Federal Hearing On Voting Machines,"
In response to message #57

Did I miss that ?? http://www.dissident.../Landes0413.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PA. USA College Kids http://www.why-war.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------SWARTHMORE COLLEGE eVOTING FRAUD FIGHTERS ! + 50 COLLEGES =================================
http://www.wiki.voli...ld-cd/FrontPage ==========================================--
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