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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#261 cpwill

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Posted 10 July 2003 - 07:49 AM

human nature requires power hierarchies, sorry mac.

and success in the medieval catholic church and the ussr was based on Who You Knew or Who Your Parents Are, not actual merit of any kind.
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#262 machlud haul

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Posted 10 July 2003 - 08:16 AM

Hmm, I would say that human nature has resulted in power structures, so far - but I don't see this partially culturally determined factor as a constant. I hope that we'll be able to change for the better: to be more reasoned and enlightened. The question of CC and USSR hierarchies is interesting: I would absolutely claim that a rise in those needed as many specific skills as in any modern corporation - and the competition was very hard indeed (ask Trotsky or Zinovyev about that). You just priviledge those skills that result in modern capitalist success and see others as irrational, but I don't see any objective criteria other than personal opinion (or even philosophy) that would really justify it. Fundamentally, I think we are all there, of course, but then maybe the awareness of this is some sort of objective measure. So, I would see you as very deeply anchored to just one specific moment and location in history and seeing your local values as universal and selfevident (just as any Catholic medieval European or 1920's bolshevik).
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#263 donquijote

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Posted 11 July 2003 - 06:05 PM

<If we simpified the LION down to a con-man, he can be disarmed by public exposure to his tricks- thus people are getting the awareness and enlightenment you and I know society needs.
It is not idealistic to do this, but merely practical. There are identifiable systems, ideologies, policies, and identifiable persons and identifiable organisations and institutions etc that make up,
build/sustain the LION. They are in abundance being exposed on the net. We can't stop at the animals farm stage and expect the LION to go away. We have to move on and expose the who,how and what that makes up the LION.>

Hi Bader

Exactly, the lion can *only* dominate because of his cover (or disguises). Even the Pharaos knew that by assuming the character of god they could easily control people. ***The lion cannot control physically the little animals and uses the lie***. Please look at this...

HOW THE BLACK SHEEP WERE EXPELLED

One day the Wolf, who had been thinking how to best eat the sheep,
decided to dress as a sheep... And that's how the sheep trusted the
new sheep more every day, some confessing to him, others voting for
him, and most allowing to be trimmed by him...

Meanwhile, the Black Sheep thought this way: "If he got paws and fangs
and howls, wolf it is..."

And that's the reason why from then on the Black Sheep weren't allowed
to mingle anymore with the simple and common sheep...

The Internet and the Proles are our only hope... :)

PS: I think the best reasoning we can use is that of evolution and nature. It doesn't use 'secret' Egyptian knowledge--which could be used to manipulate as much as religion--but it goes beyond the materialistic approach. Who can explain what you feel when you hike a mountain in scientific terms?

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#264 donquijote

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Posted 11 July 2003 - 06:31 PM

<capitalism, quite frankly, Works-it will Provide Jobs which will get people money which will allow them to buy food and all sorts of fun things.>

The failure of capitalism...

http://www.sitting-d...cks/capital.jpg

Other than the picture, how can we classify the failures of capitalism, social, environmental or warmongering?
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#265 donquijote

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Posted 11 July 2003 - 07:07 PM

<i think i know a little bit about living conditions during the USSR.
i think, for instance, that during the reagan administration when a fairly liberal media group decided to do a series on poverty in the US in order to embarrass him, that the gov. of the USSR got the tape to show to it's citizens in order to show how living conditions were better in the worker's paradise.
except, of course, that when they started looking at it they quickly stopped-it seemed that our poverty strucken individuals were living much better lives than all but the very upper crust of their population. there was zero social mobility, unless of course, you Knew Somebody. then, of course, the whole system went broke and they are still suffering from it.>

Poverty in America is not even material. You may even have a beat up, polluting 'transportation' vehicle that would be the envy of Kazakhstanians. But when you got to gas it up--and pay repairs, insurance, etc--that 20 year old dinasaur becomes a liability. Then you wished you had the public transportation system of the former USSR...

Indeed capitalism provides jobs--the automobile, tire, insurance industry--and opportunities. Our boys have to go and fight in oil-rich rogue nations to keep the old piece of junk going. But hey, they got "opportunities". :)

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#266 donquijote

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Posted 11 July 2003 - 07:13 PM

<i gave you ireland-which was socialist, failed, got rid of all that; and succeeded greatly.
show me a similar example of unprecedented incredible growth via following capitalism.
even socialist china grows when it leans more towards capitalism in it's policies. when it went the opposite way (Great Leap Backwards) it failed miserably.>

China is doing beautiful. The Chinese people? Well they went down to the 140th + place in health care when it was privatized. But hey, nothing's perfect!

Here's some more details of their success...

Making Trinkets in China, and a Deadly Dust
By JOSEPH KAHN
Source: The New York Times

HUANG TU, China, June 15 ? With his handsome smile and full head of
black hair, Hu Zhiguo hardly looks 44, much less gravely ill. The
giveaway is his wispy voice, faint from clotted lungs.

One doctor told him he had tuberculosis. Another guessed it was
cancer. The final diagnosis, based on the cumulus of gray that clouds
his chest X-rays, is a severe case of silicosis, a disease Chinese
workers call dust lung.

Mr. Hu got the illness making cheap necklaces and bracelets from
iridescent stones like opal, sold by the containerload to United
States retailers. Working long days at a factory in booming Guangdong
Province, he probably inhaled more quartz dust in 10 years than
China's own safety standards would permit in a thousand.

Mr. Hu has now retreated to his hometown here in the rugged hills of
Sichuan, where he tried, and failed, to help his wife run a dry-goods
store.

"I cannot lift a bag of rice," Mr. Hu whispered one recent evening in
the back of the family shop. "I am a wasted man, waiting for death."

China has emerged as Asia's leading exporter of manufactured goods to
the United States, but the workers who produce those goods are victims
of a surge in fatal respiratory, circulatory, neurological and
digestive-tract diseases like those American and European workers
suffered at the dawn of the industrial age.

China in that sense is not only recreating the industrial
transformation that brought prosperity to Europe, the United States
and some East Asian nations. It is also reliving its horrors.

Even by its official count, China already has more deaths from
work-related illnesses than any other country or region, including the
industrialized economies of the United States and Europe combined.

Last year, 386,645 Chinese workers died of occupational illnesses,
according to government data compiled by the International Labor
Organization.

The statistics may understate the situation in China's thriving east
coast industrial centers, where tens of millions of migrant workers
like Mr. Hu produce the bulk of China's exports for well under a
dollar an hour without employment contracts, health care plans or
union representation.

The company where Mr. Hu worked, called Lucky Gems and Jewelry, is now
based at a multibuilding site in Huizhou, about two hours north of the
mainland Chinese border with Hong Kong. It employs 3,000 workers,
almost all of them from far away provinces, living in dormitories
inside a gated campus or in the harsh residential community that lines
the unpaved streets and construction sites surrounding the factory.

Its owner, a Hong Kong businessman named Wang Shenghua, was a pioneer
in bringing jewelry manufacturing to southern China in the mid-1980's,
when he opened his first factory in the mainland's experimental
economic zone of Shenzhen.

With Lucky and hundreds of small-scale rival manufacturers, China
dominates a labor-intensive industry once scattered widely around East
Asia and the Middle East.

Lucky says it takes safety seriously. While the owner, Mr. Wang,
declined a reporter's request to talk with him and visit the factory,
he appointed a lawyer to answer questions about its safety record. The
lawyer, Kang Ziying, said the company has always protected its workers
and invested heavily in equipment to prevent workers from contracting
silicosis, though he acknowledges there have been some cases of the
disease among its employees.

"We have always met the government's standards for safety," Mr. Kang
said. "Otherwise, they would not let us operate."

Mr. Hu was a 30-year-old peasant farmer eager to earn a worker's wage
when he left his home in northern Sichuan in 1990. He traveled for
four days, by train and bus, to Shenzhen. There, he landed a job at
Lucky, introduced to the company by a distant relative.

He learned how to cut and sand semiprecious stones like opal, topaz
and malachite into hearts, stars, pearls, and diamond shapes that are
strung together to make rings, bracelets and necklaces.

Mr. Hu sat shoulder to shoulder with other cutters and polishers in
confined workshops. Often working 12- and even 18-hours days, they
generated clouds of dust that hung in the air even when windows were
wide open and the fans were set to high.

"It was always like dusk inside the factory, no matter how much
sunlight there was outside," he said. "It was like a heavy fog. We got
used to it."

By the late 1990's, Mr. Hu began having trouble climbing stairs and
lifting rocks. He came to dread winter, when a common head cold caused
prolonged torment. "If I walked quickly, I would run out of breath
right away. If I got a cold, I felt like I was suffocating," he said.

If anyone at Lucky was aware of the risks that workers might acquire
diseases from exposure to quartz dust, Mr. Hu says that information
was not shared with him. Local doctors first told him he might have
tuberculosis, then lung cancer. By late 1999, he felt too weak to
continue and took a low-paying job selling fruit on the muddy street
in front of the factory.

A short time later, when numerous colleagues began developing similar
symptoms, Mr. Hu joined them on bus trips to the provincial capital,
Guangzhou, to seek a diagnosis. There, a doctor at a hospital that
specializes in occupational diseases suspected that jewelry workers
might be developing silicosis in large numbers.

The pulmonary ailment comes from overexposure to silicon dioxide
trapped in quartz, minerals, rocks and sand. Though it is one of the
oldest known occupational diseases, it has only recently become a
priority for Chinese authorities, who now consider it a leading
work-related illness.

Despite what Lucky workers described as a campaign by the company to
deny the problem, provincial authorities eventually ordered all of
Lucky's workers to undergo X-ray exams. How many workers showed signs
of the disease is uncertain. At least 50 people claim to have fallen
sick at Lucky. What is clear is that the company began battling dozens
of workers over medical claims, while installing equipment to improve
ventilation.

Mr. Kang, the lawyer, said some of the people seeking compensation
were fakers and opportunists who either never worked there or who did
not really have chronic illnesses. He acknowledged that the company
invested $1 million to improve ventilation at the factory after 2001,
but said those were not the first steps the company had taken to clean
up the work environment.

Workers tell a different story. In the shadows of the Huizhou plant,
where the ear-splitting whine of stonecutting machines pierces the
air, about two dozen old friends and colleagues of Mr. Hu rent tiny
rooms in restaurants, shops and private homes. They spend their days
petitioning the government and gathering evidence to use against the
company in court.

"Our boss cares only about the money in his pocket," said Liu Huaquan,
a 39-year-old former craftsman at Lucky. In 2001, he was the first
worker at the company to have silicosis formally diagnosed, but he is
still fighting for compensation.

(snip)

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#267 Buttersideup

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Posted 11 July 2003 - 07:17 PM

No one would choose public transportation except for the trip to work. I do remember a twinge of embarasemt during the 90's. A local news station had an exchange of anchormen. He was doing a story at one of this cities worst housing projects. With a look of incredulous disdain he asked "the goverment owns these?"
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#268 Buttersideup

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Posted 11 July 2003 - 07:20 PM

DonQ:

If you wanted to point out how much it sucks for the average Chinese, good job. If not, what was the point?
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#269 donquijote

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Posted 11 July 2003 - 07:21 PM

<Well, I kind of think that any hierarchy is quite irrational as its basis is bound to be an irrational, subjective and often almost random choice of criteria, whether heredity, theology/ideology, physical force, ability to gather fruits, money, weapons etc. etc., even I would say, intelligence. Capitalism would not survive without corporations and companies and the structures and roles they require: owners, managers and employees at various levels. This is a narrow criteria and leads to a great waste of human potential. As to liberalism and social democracy, I would say that the differences are mostly semantic or questions of degree, but the point is still good: without social security capitalism wouldn't survive long.>

Hi Mach

I think one thing is to cope or get along with hierarchy--we may never root it out--and another thing is to incentive it to the end of squeezing the most out of the people at the bottom. It's probably safe to say that most people of the world live under fear: not necessarily from terrorism, but from the boss, from being laid off, from getting sick, and not being able to feed their family...

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#270 Buttersideup

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Posted 11 July 2003 - 07:24 PM

It's probably safe to say that most people of the world live under fear: not necessarily from terrorism, but from the boss, from being laid off, from getting sick, and not being able to feed their family...

That is safe to say, and undeniably true.
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#271 donquijote

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Posted 11 July 2003 - 07:46 PM

<If you wanted to point out how much it sucks for the average Chinese, good job. If not, what was the point? >

Well, I was responding to the argument that capitalism saved China. The point is capitalism is good for some, but bad for a majority.

This is capitalism's promise : If it goes wrong, it's like Russia; if it goes right, it's like China...

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#272 donquijote

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Posted 11 July 2003 - 07:59 PM

The failure of capitalism...

http://www.sitting-d...cks/capital.jpg

The failure of Marxism...

http://www.sitting-d.../ducks/marx.jpg
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#273 GORDILL

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Posted 11 July 2003 - 08:36 PM

I don't believe communism and capitalism can exist side by side.

Communism requires that people work for very low wage or salaries, so the good people leave for the higher pay in the capitalistic society.

Russia had the Iron Curtain to keep her productive people in the country. Ditto for Cuba. China may be different. With a billion people she can spare a few million.

Russia is still divided between the "old Russians" and the "New Russians". Some want to return to the old communist system, others want to forge ahead into a new economy.
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#274 donquijote

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Posted 11 July 2003 - 08:41 PM

As I said before we should be learning quite a bit from Evolution and Nature. The lie--a human attribute--should be punished and criminalized in public life. Since prehistoric times we have always lived under the lie. Perhaps our best scientists shouldn't go into exploring life in other planets, but into the possibility of improving life on this planet...

'Lying would likely be criminalized or made into an "offense under the law," with penalties ranging from an apology, to community service, to years in jail, depending on the severity of the consequences deriving from the lie and/or the intention behind the lie. It-s not that I think such a law would be easily enforceable, or that such a law should be enforced in most circumstances, only that the existence of a law clarifies the danger or repugnance of the act it prohibits, and a law is needed so that it can be enforced when the circumstances warrant enforcement. Obviously, for almost all situations involving lying, some cost-effective form of mediation or ADR (meaning "alternative dispute resolution") will suffice and work just fine, and no involvement of the police or courts will be needed. (Much of this ADR or mediation would end up being done over the Internet, I expect.)'

full text...

http://www.human3.com/link18.htm
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#275 cpwill

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Posted 11 July 2003 - 08:51 PM

yes, but your example of how capitolism has harmed china's masses is shown to be at the very least weak by one scentance in your article alone:
<<Working long days at a factory in booming Guangdong
Province, he probably inhaled more quartz dust in 10 years than
China's own safety standards would permit in a thousand.>>

of course people suffer when safety measures are ignored. duh. that is just as true in capitolist countries as in communist ones.
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#276 Buttersideup

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Posted 11 July 2003 - 08:59 PM

All syntax aside. 95% of the worlds people work there *** off the 5%("the chosen") can live in luxury. Always been that way....everywhere.
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#277 donquijote

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Posted 11 July 2003 - 09:45 PM

<All syntax aside. 95% of the worlds people work there *** off the 5%("the chosen") can live in luxury. Always been that way....everywhere. >

A few dinosaurs are holding back the cooperative little animals...

EVOLVE OR ELSE!

Once upon a time lived a race of dinosaurs whose violence and appetite alarmed everybody... One day a Little Ant, tired of feeling stepped upon, and worried about her cooperative enterprise, came up to the Americanus Raptor--the biggest dinosaur of them all--and asked: "Why you always have to protect the right of the dinosaurs, who do nothing but eat everything in their path? Why don't the little animals get a fair share of this world?" Then the dinosaur, who had a bad temper, replied: "Bigger is better, so get lost..."

The Little Ant, then, gathered the whole cooperative and said: "Comrades, our world is being threatened by the dinosaurs, so..." And at that precise moment the Earth was hit by a big ball of fire, destroying all but the small animals...

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#278 Buttersideup

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Posted 11 July 2003 - 09:54 PM

*laughs hysterically*
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#279 Buttersideup

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Posted 11 July 2003 - 09:56 PM

Little dinosaurs like Liberia? If we don't do anything, despite the begging, we are heartless. If we do something we are Imperialist dinosaurs. See the ridiculous box we are placed in....
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#280 Buttersideup

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Posted 11 July 2003 - 10:01 PM

Once long ago in the jungle all the animals were tired of being abused by the dinosaurs. One day the foxes and the wolves called them all together and offered up a plan. Due to there teeth and speed they could eventually drive the dinosaurs off. All the animals agreed that was a great plan and praised them for thinking of it. Eventually through prolonged harassment the dinosaurs left. Later that week the wolves and the foxes laughed as they dined sumptuously and freely on the rest of the jungle.
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