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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#2841 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 19 May 2004 - 04:23 PM

Bader/Donq; *Walesa and Gorbachev campaigned against something without clear knowledge of the lion to come. Or maybe they did, who knows. *

Walesa like majority Polish , was interested to remove foreign soldiers from Polish soil. Walesa as a majority of Polish people or Pope was not aware about economical connections. :confused:
Storm in Russia took down not only Russian businesses down but Polish industry as well. And we Polish were not able to rebuild it and transform as a single country. Expected western orders didn
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#2842 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 19 May 2004 - 04:47 PM

Since Poland moved to *democracy*; freedom of the press is gone.
So for example when in Polish Warsaw took place the annual meeting of The International Press Institute, based in Vienna, Austria, was no world about it in Polish press because US was Accused of Violating Press Freedom .
A resolution passed by the group's annual meeting in Warsaw. It cited alleged infringements of media freedom both by the Coalition Provisional Authority and by officials in Washington.

intercept from http://story.news.ya...u/media_us_iraq
Polish Media celebrated Pope birthday all day long with break only for Monte Casino anniversary.
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#2843 Pliny

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Posted 19 May 2004 - 06:36 PM

>>>The funds are allocated through a publicly administered program resulting in optimum use of our health care dollars. <<<

This just adds a layer of bureaucracy. You know what happens then? Everyone starts lining up at the trough. Eventually, the system becomes so expensive that treatment becomes selective and lineups for services start occurring. Research suffers under this burden and funding is only approved for "recognized treatments". Private medicine will not thrive because taxes will take too much out of people's pockets for them to be able to afford it and what the heck why pay for it twice.

Bader:
>>>When people invest in their own they look after it and protect it.<<<

True. Very true. If they don't it deteriorates.

That above statement is why the primary purpose of government is to protect the sanctity of person and property. Today they are a threat to person and property. It is the root of the power invested into it by the collective will. From there springs it's mandate of justice.
Beyond that it has no other purpose. Defence, Foreign Affairs
all fall under the heading protection of the sanctity of the person and property.
I think Woj pointed out that the short terms of democratic government leave them short- sighted. They fail to factor in the long term effects of their legislation and regulation invites more regulation and once they open the gates to the public coffers people will vote themselves government largesse.

Governments are like the dande"lion" in your lawn. They will eventually take over if you are not vigilant. The roots, which you don't see, are the bankers that control the governments.
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#2844 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 19 May 2004 - 07:18 PM

Pliny; *Governments are like the dande"lion" in your lawn. They will eventually take over if you are not vigilant. The roots, which you don't see, are the bankers that control the governments.
___ The funds are allocated through a publicly administered program resulting in optimum use of our health care dollars. <<<
This just adds a layer of bureaucracy.


Universal public health care eliminates layer of bureaucracy of heath insurances.! ..

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#2845 Pliny

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Posted 19 May 2004 - 08:52 PM

>>>Universal public health care eliminates layer of bureaucracy of heath insurances.! ..<<<

That should read "replaces" not eliminates.

>>>Not al all, cutting of Polish congress in half and elimination of Senat is basic Polish public request . Every candidate for member of government before election promises it and forgets day after-<<< LOL
Sounds like they are republicans?
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#2846 Pliny

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Posted 19 May 2004 - 11:33 PM

Here is a passage from "The Paris Commune" by Marx that I think you will like.

Wonderful, indeed, was the change the Commune had wrought in Paris! No longer any trace of the meretricious Paris of the Second Empire! No longer was Paris the rendezvous of British landlords, Irish absentees,[M] American ex-slaveholders and shoddy men, Russian ex-serfowners, and Wallachian boyards. No more corpses at the morgue, no nocturnal burglaries, scarcely any robberies; in fact, for the first time since the days of February 1848, the streets of Paris were safe, and that without any police of any kind.


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#2847 donquijote

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Posted 20 May 2004 - 03:03 AM

<This just adds a layer of bureaucracy. You know what happens then? Everyone starts lining up at the trough. Eventually, the system becomes so expensive that treatment becomes selective and lineups for services start occurring. Research suffers under this burden and funding is only approved for "recognized treatments". Private medicine will not thrive because taxes will take too much out of people's pockets for them to be able to afford it and what the heck why pay for it twice.>

Howdy Pliny
OK, what would the best system, the French? They got these "mutuelles" they pay into. Anyways you could have a system like Canada AND private alternatives. Moreover, basic/preventive healthcare could be taken care of at the coops, etc.
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#2848 donquijote

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Posted 20 May 2004 - 03:14 AM

"kibbutz industries are a cipher of kibbutz social organization and, so, present a more egalitarian, democratic, and participative model of work organization than those under either capitalism OR STATE SOCIALISM"

"The kibbutz is a socialist system where the fruits of everyone's labor accrues to the benefit of everyone. It is one for all and all for one."

It's a good option to the lion at the workplace as well to the lions in government. And it presents a manageable size to experiment without going into costly grand scale experiments. Only a bad lion could prevent us from having that...;)

ONLY IN ISRAEL --- THERE ARE 269 KIBBUTZIM and there are about 130,000 plus who continue to live in them. There is also the MOSHAV, which is also a unique entity not as often spoken of, but many of them exist in israel where the means of production are also jointly owned by the people who live there, but they do own their own homes and retain some private ownership.

A kibbutz community exercises usufruct rights over all communal property. The community collectively controls the means of production, appropriating and distributing all surplus labor and value.

Brief description of Kibbutz Mode of Production: Only some of the goods and services of the production and none of the consumption work branches of kibbutzim are governed by exchange value. Many kibbutz work branches operate on use value alone. A society in miniature and a distinct mode of production, the kibbutz coexists with the capitalist mode of production of Israel in which it is embedded. Within this "articulation" of modes of production, relations between the two are mainly characterized by exchange, with industrial production being the main medium of that exchange. Industry provides individual kibbutzim with their largest source of income. The kibbutz is not a form of industrial democracy, for all members of a kibbutz participate in the democratic governance of the kibbutz industrial enterprise, whether they are directly engaged in that industry or not. The management of kibbutz industry is a communal and a personal experience for kibbutz members, diffused among and determined by the institutions of the kibbutz community: the general assembly, the network of committees, and the workers' meeting of that enterprise. As measured by survey data, kibbutz industries are a cipher of kibbutz social organization and, so, present a more egalitarian, democratic, and participative model of work organization than those under either capitalism OR STATE SOCIALISM.

http://pnews.org/art/10art/CURSE.shtml
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#2849 donquijote

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Posted 20 May 2004 - 03:17 AM

<Here is a passage from "The Paris Commune" by Marx that I think you will like. >

I liked it. I think it's the lion who most keeps the jungle. Even hyenas, foxes, vultures, snakes and even rats depend on him...;)
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#2850 donquijote

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Posted 20 May 2004 - 03:23 AM

<Governments are like the dande"lion" in your lawn. They will eventually take over if you are not vigilant. The roots, which you don't see, are the bankers that control the governments. >

I didn't get that at first. Very clever metaphor...;)

And I would add the flowers (because it must have flowers, right?) are the democratic ornament meant to look pretty.:D
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#2851 Bader

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Posted 20 May 2004 - 06:47 AM

democracy and free press isnt automatic. If people voted for free press it doesnt follow that it will happen.
The fact is the corporate entity is now a major factor/player and their freedom to uniformly slant/control news can only be countered by a press business which believed in a an open and
inclusive product.
There are few independant papers here, only serving the immediate region, usually a city and surrounds. There is one up north that published letters to the Ed that expose the Lion and
an attempt to set the place on fire as a message to the owner/ed shows that an open society will not be tollerated, so
the Ed has to tone things down and print less, less often, to
survive. If the majority of the public were awake and want to defend free society they could hurt the badguys bad press very simply. If the public dont buy the businesses would stop advertising in them, you know what that means. Such power is available in a true democracy but such requires responsibility on
behalf of the members. The majority look to the press and "popular" opionion reported therein for leadership.
The public can have an impact on govt because they understand
that but not the corp because it isnt in their normal thinking yet, which is why the corp armed forces are on a big rise.

One of the reasons private medical research is so expensive is because the deseases now plaguing people are man made
and thus the research which was often criminally done to create
new medical problems cannot be done to find an cure by criminal
means and the villans dont want a cure just some snake oil on a promise to no-where accept side affects down stream creating more business.

More laws and regs is a parallel to more debt. Has to be the same lion.
Private property has been in the plan for only an elite for some time. The days of simply blaming govt are gone in my view, they are being run over just like us. Similar regarding the "govt largesse" is over-rated and dated.
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#2852 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 20 May 2004 - 12:00 PM

Bader; *If the majority of the public were awake and want to defend free society they could hurt the badguys bad press very simply. If the public dont buy the businesses would stop advertising in them, you know what that means. Such power is available in a true democracy but such requires responsibility on
behalf of the members. The majority look to the press and "popular" opionion reported therein for leadership.
The public can have an impact on govt because they understand
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#2853 donquijote

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Posted 20 May 2004 - 02:37 PM

<There are few independant papers here, only serving the immediate region, usually a city and surrounds. There is one up north that published letters to the Ed that expose the Lion and
an attempt to set the place on fire as a message to the owner/ed shows that an open society will not be tollerated, so
the Ed has to tone things down and print less, less often, to
survive. >

Howdy Bader
Beyond the democratic rhetoric hides a jungle and behind the jungle hides the lion. You can see him in cases like the one you mention, and I face it everyday. I go out there to hand out my flyers and get roared at all the time. If we lived in a democracy, you would be encouraged to go out there and shout your ideas, right? But guess what, you are intimidated by the *roaring lion* into silence. Which leads me to the suspicion that there's a jungle and a lion...;)

The lion tells you, "You are free," and then intimidates you into submission. That's the way it is in the jungle...:(

"In the animal world, experts have long believed, the secret to success is dominance. Domination by physical intimidation seems to be the law of power in the jungle."

http://www.fortwayne...nel/3622687.htm
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#2854 donquijote

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Posted 20 May 2004 - 02:42 PM

<Awaken majority of public is bigger utopia than true communism, so I opt for communism with accountability to their people. .:)>

Howdy Woj
Majority of public has been kept dormant and opiated on purpose. Our job is to awaken them. Just like Jehova's Witnesses: "Awaken!":D
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#2855 donquijote

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Posted 20 May 2004 - 02:53 PM

"Corruption and the high degree of coordination between government, business, and central bank policy are issues of concern"

< I select semi communism social system - Slovenia type. :)
It is never mention that Slovenia practically never left communism and didn-t privatized Slovenian industry and national real estate and everything is in her hands. :)
I praise her wisdom , her communist government which has support of their citizens in contrary to democratic Polish government which stay on some holes in constitution. :confused:>

"Communism" or "Banana Republic"?:confused:

"Slovenia, with its historical ties to Western Europe, enjoys a GDP per capita substantially higher than that of the other transitioning economies of Central Europe. Privatization of the economy proceeded at an accelerated pace in 2002-3, and the budget deficit dropped from 3.0% of GDP in 2002 to 1.9% in 2003. Despite the economic slowdown in Europe in 2001-03, Slovenia maintained 3% growth. Structural reforms to improve the business environment allow for greater foreign participation in Slovenia's economy and help to lower unemployment. Further measures to curb inflation are also needed. Corruption and the high degree of coordination between government, business, and central bank policy are issues of concern in the run-up to Slovenia's scheduled 1 May 2004 accession to the European Union."

http://www.cia.gov/c...os/si.html#Govt

Face it, Woj, true *voluntary* communism can't exist in a society larger than a coop. We can have many, many coops though...;)
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#2856 Pliny

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Posted 20 May 2004 - 03:37 PM

As for healthcare, and a correct model for it's function, take a look at what field it naturally occurred in. The mystical field of the spirit.
The Shaman, Medicine man, they looked after the physical as well as the spiritual aspect of healing.

If we had any understanding of man we would not deny him his spiritual side in the art of healing. Treating the physical aspect of man is a mechanical function. The standard practice of medicine is no longer in the realm of art or the spirit. It is in cold science which does our soul no good.

Governments should not interfere with medicine nor should they tax it. It should have remained in the realm of religion or at least should have evolved along parallel lines. That it went with science is to our detriment. Of course it is logical it would fall under science as long as we have physical things to learn about the body but it should not have relinquished it's roots.

Before the advent of healthcare,or socialized medicine, doctors were paid whatever their patients could afford. They were never lacking and were always respected as pillars in their communities.

If people funded medicine charitably and governments didn't tax medical practitioners or hospitals they would be awash in money. If they ever swayed from providing a valuable service it would not be obligatory to continue contributing. You can bet there would be more attention paid to servicing the customers.

Alternative methodologies would thrive as well if they were efficacious. And real, not money-making, breakthroughs would be
the rule rather than the exception.

That's a basis for a medical model I believe more rational than the business, bottom line model that all healthcare models are based on currently.

By the way, there are no private hospitals in Canada. Homes for the elderly may exist privately, I think, but they are not entirely medical facilities.

No doctor in Canada may accept private payment for his services.



Woj:

Actually people support communism because they have no incentive. Unfortunately, they are left to the whim of the the politburo. An oligarchy that is always trying to avoid losing power as there are always some with higher personal aspirations for themselves.
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#2857 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 20 May 2004 - 04:10 PM

Donq/Pliny; dande"lion"
<Governments are like the dande"lion" in your lawn. They will eventually take over if you are not vigilant. The roots, which you don't see, are the bankers that control the governments. >
I didn't get that at first. Very clever metaphor... *

dandelion; Taraxacum. officinale benefits the liver and clear the liver to detoxify poison. It should be also considered a valuable survival food. IT contains all the nutritive salts that are required by body to purify the blood. Dandelion promotes a healthy circulation, strengthens week arteries, and cleanses skin blemishes. The juice from broken stem can be used for warts. It should be applied and then allowed to dry. Dandelion is also useful for corn
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#2858 Pliny

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Posted 20 May 2004 - 05:54 PM

I'm heading out to plow the back forty now. Where can I get some dandelion seeds? Mmmm. Mmmm.

It makes just as much sense to plant a crop of dandelions
as it does to support communism. There is no useful economic value in either.

Woj, you must not depend on the government for your sustenance. One day it will turn on you and not provide it. Protect yourself and find someone who is truly compassionate.
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#2859 Bader

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Posted 20 May 2004 - 06:57 PM

Freedom is not a giveaway
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#2860 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 21 May 2004 - 12:38 AM

Pliny; It makes just as much sense to plant a crop of dandelions
as it does to support communism. There is no useful economic value in either.*

I am not saying about planting the dandelion, I am saying that chemical companies force some life style to earn money and this is often dangerous for environment. I saw myself on dandelion flowers group of very small yellow birds, at first I took them for butterflies. Next year I saw only a few and I don
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