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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#2941 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 28 May 2004 - 10:48 AM

*Sexual revolution* is nothing else but Baal revisited.
Baal god worshiped in many ancient Middle Eastern communities, especially among the Canaanites, who apparently considered him a fertility deity and one of the most important gods in the pantheon.
As a Semitic common noun baal (Hebrew ba'al) meant
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#2942 donquijote

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Posted 28 May 2004 - 01:53 PM

"Democracy which we cherish is an impossibility in an Islamic state. You either have a dictator like Saddam, or Musharraf or Gaddafi, or an Islamic monarchy, or Dictatorship of the clerics. Even if it is none of these, it will be a Dictatorship of the Quran. You are overruled by the Quran even in social, legal and commercial matters. We don't allow the Bible to dictate to us, except in purely religious matters."

<Christians are dishonest, erotic and the most likely to be the ones torturing the Muslims is what you have said/indicated.
Is that your honest view?>

Howdy Bader
Christianity, or better, the American Religious Right, has played a major role in going to war in Iraq, so we can safely assume that the reasons for the war have been GOLD and GOD...

"Our superiority comes straight from being a nation chosen by God. Everything else is a manifestation of that superiority and anything is justified to impose 'God's will' on Earth. Hallelujah!!!" or so they believe.

(I'll break this down into separate subjects so it doesn't become too long)

This is an interesting perspective, playing inside the mind of the Religious Right, written by an Indian...;)

THIS WAR IS AN EMPHATIC MESSAGE FROM SOME OF US IN THE CHRISTIAN WORLD TO SOME OF YOU IN THE ISLAMIC WORLD.

THE MESSAGE IS AS FOLLOWS:

1) Yes, this is a clash of civilizations. Make no mistake about it.

2) Your religion (Islam) is the latest in History, and in our opinion, it is an unnecessary religion. Before the advent of Islam, we already had Judaism, Hinduism, Budhism, Christianity etc (more than enough for man's spiritual needs.)

3) Your religion preaches that there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet and after him there can be no more. You will never revise your fundamental belief to:

"There is a God whom we prefer to call Allah, but who may be called by other names by other peoples and cultures. We believe Muhammad (Peace be upon him) was his prophet and will follow him, but we have no quarrel with those who follow other faiths, prophets or just steer clear of religion."

4) You are convinced that your religion is perfect and needs no reforms. The very thought of reform in Islam is blasphemous punishable by death. We do not believe so. We believe you must revise your scriptures to suit modern times. Some of your laws are barbaric and abhorrent. But you will not tolerate dissent. You treat your dissidents shabbily. Such a religion is an anachronism in modern times.

5)Your religion has spread by means of violence against those who did not
believe. You did not gain converts based on personal conviction and by peaceful
means or by Evangelism. Unlike selfless Christian Missionaries who spread the word of Christ by peaceful means braving great personal hardships and dangers all over the world, you conquered distant lands and occupied them and forcibly converted the local population to Islam. You have created Muslim homelands all over the world by conquest and violence.

5) But when a small group of Jews, unwanted anywhere in the world and badly victimized by others, was granted, with UN support a small homeland carved out in a place of great religious and historical significance and were willing to share this land with the Muslim locals, you have opposed it and created trouble ever since.

6) Your religion is a threat not just to Israel, but to all non-Muslims. Take notice, we are committed to Israel. Keep off Israel!

7) Your religion enjoins upon the faithful to spread your faith in places where it does not dominate.

8) When you are a majority, you do not tolerate other faiths. You will never permit a non-Muslim to reach the highest political position in your land even if he is of undoubted merit. Contrast this with our system. There is no bar against a non-Christian from reaching the top.

9) When you are a minority, and scattered, you might be well behaved, as a matter of strategy, but as soon as you collect together in sufficient numbers you begin to create mischief.

10)You use a contemptuous term "Kaafirs" for all non-Muslims. We have no such term for those who don't believe in Christianity. We tolerate Hinduism, Buddhism and Judaism and any religion that does not declare Christianity an "enemy".
The concept of "Jehad" is abhorrent to us (Modern Christians) even if some of our ancestors participated in the Crusades. We have now given up this concept but you seem to be inspired by it.

11) Democracy which we cherish is an impossibility in an Islamic state. You either have a dictator like Saddam, or Musharraf or Gaddafi, or an Islamic monarchy, or Dictatorship of the clerics. Even if it is none of these, it will be a Dictatorship of the Quran. You are overruled by the Quran even in social, legal and commercial matters. We don't allow the Bible to dictate to us, except in purely religious matters.

12) Our differences are therefore irreconcilable and this "Clash of Civilizations" is a reality, however hard we may pretend it does not exist.

13) And now LISTEN CAREFULLY!

14) As long as you quietly go about the practice of your religion, and don't become
a nuisance to us we won't bother you. But if you become a danger or a nuisance to us, we will put you in your place. 9/11 was the limit! Afghanistan was our fitting response Number 1. Iraq was our fitting response number 2. It is up to you to see there is no response number 3.

15) The prosperity of some of you is due to Plain Luck. Oil was found in your land.

16) This Oil belongs to all mankind and not just to Muslims.

17) The technology that explored the earth and discovered oil and extracted it and refined it has come from the Christian World. There is no mention in the Koran on how to discover, extract and refine oil.

18) So you owe your prosperity not just to the providential discovery of oil in
your lands but also to our knowledge and skills which have helped you exploit
it. We are prepared to pay you a fair price for the oil in your lands, but we will not allow you to use it as a political weapon to choke our economy. So if our economic interests are threatened, WE WILL ACT.

19) We achieved our prosperity from hard work and merit and not from a lucky
find underground.

20) Yes, we are more powerful than you. It is not without merit that we have become the world's most advanced nation (militarily and economically).

21) Yes, our culture and civilization are vastly superior to yours. Need proof? How many of us want to emigrate to your lands? Compare this to the teeming millions from your countries who want to emigrate to our land? Have you been even half as hospitable and helpful to our people as we have been to yours? Compare the great achievements in science, technology, medicine, sports, standard of living in the Western Christian World with those of the Islamic Nations. You will need no further proof.

22) Some of you (like Saddam Husain and Osama) did not believe in our superiority on all fronts. You needed convincing. Are you convinced now? Okay, stay convinced and behave yourself in future! Watch out Syria, Libya, Iran, Pakistan! We are willing to do some more convincing if needed.

==================================
Whew!
I finally got that off my chest!

I repeat.
These are not necessarily my views.

These are what I suspect is the thinking of a typical Arrogant American Hawk.
I hope I am completely wrong.
But I secretly fear I may be right!

http://www.steel-lin...=7&threadid=292
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#2943 donquijote

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Posted 28 May 2004 - 02:56 PM

<You argue that the jungle will stay a jungle, not because the Lion
rules but until we accept our bodies are holy. This is a big turn around.>

The Lion may be the outside enemy, but if we don't realize that our culture--having been passed to us in large part by the lion--is part of the problem, and that even after the lion is gone we will remain culturally chained, we are fooling ourselves. In other words, the lion is in our culture as well. Let's be frank, ORGANIZED RELIGION HAS BEEN AN INSTRUMENT OF THE LION, since the pharaohs to Bush.

<The New Testament specifically states that we are to respect our bodies as being holy - the real temple (made without hands) for God to indwell. Its coals to Newcastle to point this at christians.
It might be a new concept in secular society which has largely shrugged off Christians values but it is two thousand years old within the Christian community.>

Following those precepts looks right to me, but to ignore that they can be lived outside of Christianity, is again fooling ourselves. Epicurus' philosophy, for example, teaches us great humanist values, but was actively repressed by some among early Christians...:confused:

Epicurus of Samos, the Greek "philosopher of the garden" who lived
341-270 BC, was an ancient sage who left us an enduring message of
optimism.

Epicurus recognizes the virtue of justice. Like the other virtues,
justice is not considered by Epicureans to be an "absolute good," but
rather an obligatory means for securing happiness. The nature of this
obligation is contractual; justice is grounded upon a promise not to
initiate harm against one's peers, nor to permit such wrongdoing to go
unpunished. Throughout history, it has proved mutually advantageous
for individuals to band together into societies implicitly or
explicitly embracing this kind of pact, because, according to
Epicurus, "the greatest fruit of justice is peace of mind." When we
live under conditions of assured protection, we can derive solace from
the expectation that we will not fall prey to criminal acts, or in the
unlikely event that we do, that there will at least be avenues of
recourse available to us. On the other hand, *those who try to cheat
the social covenant by committing crimes are subject to perpetual
anxieties that accompany the prospects of looming retaliation*.

<Christians are not the dominating minority. The banks rule and
the Rothschilds arent christians. Rothschild means red shield
which is its link to the vatican and its colour, same as the
British emprire was always shown in red and the soviet union.
The Pope who you use as an example has a pagan title taken on
from the Roman Empire which he represents. You wont find
what characterises the Catholic church in the new testament.
You will find it in ancient babylon. This is the lion. You refer yourself to puppets and puppeteers.>

The lion crosses across borders, and even Saudi Arabia has their own share. This lion is truly international, and believing that after removing a particular group of them everything is gonna be alright, is, again, fooling ourselves. True, there's a puppetmaster, once you reveal the puppet show for what it is, he'll have to quit the show.

<Christians have been used as scapegoats before. The scarlet (red) woman riding the beast is in Revelations. The woman riding a bull is on the Euro coin. I expect that eventually the Torah, new testament and the Koran will be banned or edited to comply with the new world religion with its mother-god- nature, mother earth of ancient history within which this worshipping of the body relates.>

I think there will be a time when there's going to be LESS ORGANIZED RELIGION and MORE RELIGIOSITY. And that should be warmly welcomed.;)

But I would hesitate that Goddess Earth will ever be used for World Government. This goverment will gladly control people through fanatism and fear, in which case organized religion comes more handy...;)

<" we dont see Indian films ..." What goes around the movies as on tv is pure market and nothing to do with religion. Japanese
graphic dvds based on marshal arts are very popular in western society youth.>

I spoke about culture, which is an extension of religion. Hollywood may not be only source of violence and propaganda, but it got little competition.

"We are not talking about liberating Muslims.."
<This means the argument for peace and saving starving children is not based on humanity having a better appreciation of their bodies but only christians. This is scapegoat prejudice. And the link is spurious to begin with, otherwise as I said everything we have been saying about the jungle etc is nonsense, unless
christianity is the lion. Now we are becoming masons- Satan is the christ, Jesus is the evil one appearing as an angle of light.>

No, I mean all of us. But it's not like we are shielded from doing something because we go to church, etc. We must realize the lion is among us, though there are many others around the world. And I stop my lion, you stop your lion, and they stop their lion. What we got now though, which is highly suspicious, is one Big Lion removing the Little Lion, under the excuse of bringing "democracy" to the little animals.:confused:

"We are talking about our liberation"
<There is no "we" in Nelsons thinking, it is specifically and only christians. He wasnt talking about religions of the world or people of the world he was specific.
He steriotyped all christians as in need of getting past the FEAR. Both unfounded and untrue. The whole western society has become greatly liberalised including the christians. There may be
sects and cultic groups like Closed Brethren, maybe the Amish
are very old fashioned, but to steriotype the whole and say they
control the world and are responsible for the Jungle is rediculous.
Nero-speak.>

Like I said before, I stop my lion, you stop yours... We remove our lion, others will have no choice but remove theirs. Unless they want the lion--a theory held by the Christians--and can't live in real democracy, in which case there will be no lion since they want it. Let's face it, some people need the lion, be they Muslims or Christians...

<In a revolution "let others decide" which I advocated also, is not an option. Revolution is a flood that sweeps all. The soviet Union was a classic case of addressing the great pitfalls of society which they claimed derived from religion, christianity in particular. They were going to leave the western world for dead!
In Aleksander Solzhenitsyn's last book which he could only get published in Russian ( an idication of who's number one and who isnt) he claims 66 million people were killed in this scourge of society- >

Again, the lion was obvious. People must have realized early on when he reared his ugly head, but such views were officially denied and repressed.::confused:
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#2944 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 28 May 2004 - 04:44 PM

Bader/Donq; Brotherhood is the very price and condition of man survival. -Carlos Romulo.

The only true solution of our political and social problems lies in cultivating everywhere the spirit of brotherhood, of fellow feeling and understanding between man and man, and the willingness to treat a man as a man. -Theodore Roosevelt.

As you see Theodore Roosevelt doesn
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#2945 donquijote

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Posted 28 May 2004 - 05:29 PM

http://engforum.prav...3358#post853358

"These people are like the Taliban. They pose a real danger to the freedom of everyone else, and they now have wind in their sails because a fellow fanatic occupies the White House and a fundamentalist ayatollah is attorney general. Christians ought to follow their own god's advice, and render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto god what is god's. Religion ought to be sent back to the churches and synagogues and mosques, and kept out of public policy altogether. Separate the church from the state, and the schools from the church. That would seem elementary in a genuine democracy."

Ok, this Poll not only reflects some humor on a problem we face, but it also draws deep answers like the following. As I was saying before, in getting rid of the lion, we may have to revalue a few institutions...;)

***Congratulations: Post #3,000!***:D

Letter to a local newspaper on gay marriage
May 12, 2004

Editor Farmers Independent P.O. Box 130 Bagley, MN 56621

Dear Sir:

Several letters to your paper opposing marriage by same-sexers have struck a bigoted and histrionic tone. At least one reflected views akin to those of a Christian Taliban, and demonstrated that we have plenty of ayatollahs in the United States too. Allow me to shed some light and put the issue into a different perspective.

Upfront let me say that I am against gay marriage. I am also against heterosexual marriage. I am against all marriage. It is a lousy institution that has failed miserably. If that were not true, the divorce rate would not be 50%.

Some heterosexual opponents of gay marriage believe that it is a sacred and god-given institution, even going so far as to claim that it provides a foundation for American society. How wrong they are. For one, marriage between one man and one woman is a rather recent development in human history. For another, that kind of marriage was not generally characteristic of the original Native American inhabitants of this country, whose land was stolen from them by white European Christians whose descendants are now in a tizzy over a few mostly middle-class same-sexers trying to get the state to approve their copulations and cohabitations.

This kind of marriage is based on the notion that monogamy is the bee-s knee of human sexual relationships. That is nonsense. In fact, in Nature, only birds are truly monogamous. The higher up the phylogenetic scale one goes, the less one finds monogamy. And monogamy is not part of the mammalian heritage. Humans are not birds. That makes marriage based on monogamy an artificial and unnatural institution?which may help to explain why it is such a failure. Frederick Engels, the great socialist thinker, put it pithily in his book The Origin of the Family, Private Property, and the State: If strict monogamy is the height of all virtue, then the palm must go to the tapeworm, which-spends its whole life copulating in all its sections with itself. Confining ourselves to mammals, however, we find all forms of sexual life promiscuity, indications of group marriage, polygyny [a male having two or more female partners at the same time], monogamy. Polyandry [women having more than one male partner] alone is lacking it took human beings to achieve that.

Heterosexual opponents of gay marriage complain that same-sexers who want to get hitched legally are seeking special privileges. In a way, they are right, because those homosexuals are busy trying to gain special treatment as couples that are denied to singles, whether gay or straight. That alone is reason enough to oppose gay marriage. These pro-marriage advocates are trying to turn other homosexuals into second-class citizens. That said, the truth is that it is the heterosexuals who have written the laws in such a way that it is they, not homosexuals, who get all the special treatment. We all pay taxes to subsidize their spouse-s health coverage if they are state employees; we all pay to keep their offspring in the baby-sitting complexes called schools; we all pay for the various tax breaks they get as parents, whether single or not, whether married or not, whether competent to be a parent or not. The entire system is built to support heterosexuality and hetero families, including to clean up the messes made by the failures of the hetero system (the child abuse that occurs inside the family, the spousal violence, the uncontrolled breeding by people who cannot afford to pay for the upbringing of their offspring, the crime, the out-of-control drug addiction and alcoholism). Despite all the built-in support for hetero marriage, still it is a huge failure. The people who are really getting the short end of this stick are the singles, both straight and gay. Advocates of marriage, both straight and gay, are short-changing the single population.

Marriage should be a private matter, performed in religious settings. It should have nothing whatever to do with the state. In a democracy, it is not the business of the state to give its imprimatur to people based on who they live with or who they sleep with. Every citizen, regardless of marital or conjugal status, should be treated equally before the law and the state (including having hospital visitation rights for their loved ones, a right to health care, and so on). Keep the state out of our bedrooms! And keep the fundamentalist fanatics from imposing their religious views on the rest of us! These people are like the Taliban. They pose a real danger to the freedom of everyone else, and they now have wind in their sails because a fellow fanatic occupies the White House and a fundamentalist ayatollah is attorney general. Christians ought to follow their own god's advice, and render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto god what is god's. Religion ought to be sent back to the churches and synagogues and mosques, and kept out of public policy altogether. Separate the church from the state, and the schools from the church. That would seem elementary in a genuine democracy.

David Thorstad
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#2946 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 28 May 2004 - 06:28 PM

A court stripped Gen. Augusto Pinochet of his immunity from prosecution Friday, paving the way for the trial of the former Chilean dictator on human rights charges.
http://news.yahoo.co...l=index&cid=734
New Transcripts Point to U.S. Role in Chile Coup

By Pablo Bachelet
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Henry Kissinger told President Richard Nixon days after the 1973 coup in Chile the United States helped create the conditions for the ouster of socialist President Salvador Allende, newly declassified transcripts showed on Wednesday.

The transcripts show Nixon and Kissinger relieved about the toppling of Allende, who killed himself the day of the coup. The transcripts quote Kissinger, then national security adviser, as saying newspapers were "bleeding because a pro-communist government has been overthrown."
"I mean instead of celebrating - in the Eisenhower period we would be heroes," Kissinger told Nixon on Sept. 16, 1973, five days after the bloody coup led by Gen. Augusto Pinochet. About 3,000 people were killed or disappeared under Pinochet's rule.
"Well we didn't - as you know - our hand doesn't show on this one, though," Nixon told Kissinger in the Sept. 16 transcript.
"We didn't do it. I mean we helped them," Kissinger told Nixon, adding that "(deleted) created the conditions as great as possible," in an apparent reference to a person or institution.
"That is right and that is the way it is going to be played," Nixon responded.
A spokesman for Kissinger could not be reached for comment on Wednesday.
Peter Kornbluh, Chile analyst for the National Security Archive, said the document was "damning proof, in Kissinger's own words, that the Nixon administration directly contributed to creating a coup climate in Chile which made the September 11, 1973, military takeover possible."
The coup against Allende would later become a symbol of U.S. Cold War intervention in Latin America.
Kissinger, appearing the week of the Sept. 16 conversations at Senate confirmation hearings on his nomination as secretary of state, denied any U.S. involvement in the coup. http://news.yahoo.co..._kissinger_dc_1
I think that Pinochet and Kissinger had happy marriages. Both of them are rich. :)
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#2947 donquijote

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Posted 28 May 2004 - 07:25 PM

<A court stripped Gen. Augusto Pinochet of his immunity from prosecution Friday, paving the way for the trial of the former Chilean dictator on human rights charges.>

Woj, you know, I see a glim of hope in this. Not because of Pinochet--who's after all another small lion--but because of his prosecutor, Baltazar Gaston, the Spanish judge. This guy has vowed to prosecute *all lions* so he may be our lion slayer. But I doubt he's willing to go after the real big ones...:confused:
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#2948 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 29 May 2004 - 01:41 AM

The June 8-10 Group of Eight summit at Sea Island, Ga. will be the first rate cabaret.
Bush, Tony Blair and Silvio Berlusconi, will play game with German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, French President Jacques Chirac and Russian president (whom Bush tried to remove from G-8. )
On terrorism, they will agree on the goal, but disagree totally on how to get there.

*Change is inevitable, except from vending machine. * (Bumper sticker. ):)
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#2949 donquijote

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Posted 29 May 2004 - 01:57 AM

<The June 8-10 Group of Eight summit at Sea Island, Ga. will be the first rate cabaret.
Bush, Tony Blair and Silvio Berlusconi, will play game with German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, French President Jacques Chirac and Russian president (whom Bush tried to remove from G-8. )>

Let me see, they got a lot power, but we got better arguments. Who will win? They will, of course. At least while we live in the jungle...;)

<On terrorism, they will agree on the goal, but disagree totally on how to get there.>

Bush got the better arguments, I'd say. Based on power the same arguments.

<*Change is inevitable, except from vending machine. * (Bumper sticker. ):) >

Unless you got a bill too large to change...;)
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#2950 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 29 May 2004 - 11:25 AM

Donq; *Bush got the better arguments, I'd say. Based on power the same arguments.*


..........It is a fine thing to have ability but the ability to discover on time, ability in others, might be too big tusk for one. .....
(from Elbert Hubard).

A member of Greenland's local parliament charged with breaking into a hotel and stealing liquor will plead "self-defense" because it was cold outside, http://www.reuters.c...toryID=5288141. Where we know the *self defense* argument from?

Mubarak; "All foreign forces must be removed from Iraqi soil," "It's important that the resolution does not legalize the situation we see today, which is not compatible with Iraqi sovereignty."

Nobody is going to veto US /UK sponsoring UN resolution. Nobody will provide new troops to Iraq. Nobody will provide construction workers to Iraq. US will nominate all new members of *independent *government, Iraqi will attack oil lines in Iraq and Saudi. - Gunmen Kill 5 at Saudi Oil Offices http://story.news.ya...a/saudi_attacks
Nothing will be changed besides level of US debts. :)
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#2951 donquijote

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Posted 29 May 2004 - 03:16 PM

"It appears that the United States and Israel are abandoning the laws of civilization and returning to the laws of the jungle. The Palestinian leadership is not far behind. On all sides, the people who actually get hurt and suffer are just pawns in this terrible power game."

Power games between predators, innocent little people doing the actual fight, kill before they kill you... When is it going to be the day that we will see on TV "Boxing Match between Bush and Hussein"?;)

Until that day, I'd rather turn off my television...

When the Law of the Jungle Prevails
by Joyce Marcel

It's hard to be a Jew today, even an American Jew, when the headlines are screaming, "Israeli official: Killing Arafat is a possibility."

When did it become acceptable for a country to talk about going into another country and assassinating its leaders? In the past, world wars were started over this sort of thing. Yet now we have the leaders of Israel claiming the right to kill the elected leader of another state, just as America claimed it had the right to declare war on Iraq for no good reason, put Iraqi officials on playing cards, for God's sake, and hunt them down.

The United States turned its armed forces into a Western posse out of a John Wayne movie, and now Israel starts sounding more like Tony Soprano's mob than a civilized nation. Palestinian legislator Saeb Erekat correctly called this latest action by Israel "the behavior... of a mafia and not a government."

It appears that the United States and Israel are abandoning the laws of civilization and returning to the laws of the jungle. The Palestinian leadership is not far behind. On all sides, the people who actually get hurt and suffer are just pawns in this terrible power game.

http://www.commondre...s03/0917-09.htm
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#2952 donquijote

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Posted 29 May 2004 - 03:36 PM

"We can't accept any longer, given the changes in the
world and the attitude of the people, the law of the jungle."

If only we acted on it...;)

WORLD CAN NO LONGER ACCEPT THE LAW OF THE JUNGLE.

French President Jacques Chirac made a brief,
but significant six-hour stopover in Malaysia today,
becoming the first French head of state to visit the country.

In the course of the official state
visit, Chirac became the first dignitary to receive the inaugural
Kuala Lumpur Peace Prize from Prime Minister Dr. Mahathir bin Mohamad.

Chirac gave high praise to Dr. Mahathir in his speech, saying:

"We can't accept any longer, given the changes in the
world and the attitude of the people, the law of the jungle."

Each individual and nation, he said, should be heard for their
contribution to the betterment of the world.

During a joint press conference, the two were asked about
the continuing detention of Burmese opposition leader Aung San Suu Kyi.

Dr. Mahathir, with typical wit, said:

"Whatever we do,
we must not think about invading Myanmar in order to achieve regime change."

Pres. Chirac said he "endorsed the sentiment of
that statement," adding he did not approve of her detention and
urged her release and that of her colleagues.

http://www.rumormill...ames;read=34603
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#2953 Bader

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Posted 29 May 2004 - 08:47 PM

I have said it before and I repeat again for this discusion which is much bigger than ones we have had recently and is
appropriate given the centre stage of post Sept 11.- LABELS are
often meaningless and part of the smoke and mirrors.
And it is part of the point you make Donq, that the Lion has
intruded into the culture (internally) and not just externally. We have covered aspects of this subversion re education, media,
politics etc which all contribute to our way of life besides the
laws of money. You said it goes back to Pharoah, and I have said Babylon, and in fact back to the "Garden", as you said Satan is the Lion.

(at this point I will end my reference to Nelson's freudian view
of theology - as being an example of internal lion-cultural
influence)

The label - Right, or moral majority, evangelicals etc, even the label christian is actually meaningless because of the divide and rule out of chaos strategy of the lion.

The post from the arrogant Right is a rant that I would rate along with the alleged rants of Osama.
Jesus said by their fruit (not their labels) you will know them.
The scriptures also warn the first shall be last and the last will be first after the Lion clan has recieved their true rewards . So who wants to be among the rich and powerful who back the likes of Bush, and fellow travellers.

I did pick out a couple of key lines, to show that this is lion-speak.
"you will not revise your scriptures to suit modern times."
Truth is not established by popular vote. Majority rulling over what one believes applies to all, may not serve the interests of those who are religious. Christians would not go along with editing the Bible to suit those who dont respect the Bible.
I said last post they will want to re-edit the Bible and Koran
which will oppress the three monotheistic religions to serve the interests of the new world religion and I will add you can expect
the Pope to head this new world church which is part of the NWO.

Several of the accusations made against the Moslims are true of the Jews and Catholics and through Bushs wars back on these very people. When they say the oil belongs to all mankind, it means those who have the power to beat everyone else for it- there is your lion philosophy.
Hard work drival again. The little animals do the hard yards.
"In the western christian world ...." the superior rant is referring to judae-christian civilisation. This is the common lion-cultural expression but strictly speaking judaism (which is largely Talmudic) is diametrically opposed to christ and his teaching and what his apostles continued with. So it is a oximoron classic lion-double speak. Obviously the corruption of Torah based Judaism
and the corruption of the early christian religion are what makes up what has been the dominant western culture but today in the post christian world I think that the dominant culture, especially in the US which is the major influence on modern culture now in the developed world, that it is predominantly jewish.

THe Bush admin is influenced by the neocons firstly who are US jewish zionists and whom are also supported by the evangelicals
(a group label) who are part of the Right and would agree in general with the rant posted. There is another lable group called conservatives, probably less clear are to where they start and end, but have a similar view. I would expect that the latter,
the christian (labels) are the greater in number than the jewish(label) section but I would expect the one with the numbers re funds, as opposed to people, would be the more powerful.
Then lets remember who/what the focus is- Israel.
I understand that amongst both there are those, not necessary the majority, who believe that some apocalyptic event will bring
the Messiah (first time or second time depending on whether they are of the jewish or christians sections) back/down to earth and clean house of all muslims, SUV owners (tongue in cheek)and everyone else destroying the planet. And some are so deluded that they think
that they may give god a hand to do so by pushing things over the edge. (which cannot be excluded from the possible causes of the Sept 11 and aftermath- it is just as easy to suck in the ranters behind bush as the muslim ranter terrorist trained by the Bzinzenskis plan)
I make no reference to the ordinary people/families who may
call themselves jews, evangelicals, socialists, greens, new-age
what ever, they are all the little animals, subject to inside and outside lion culture that is to all appearances in order and certainly well desguised by numbers. My beef is the upper strata that cuts across ALL the labels, abusing power, who surely cannot plead innocence. These are the ones who will have to give an account for the starving children etc.
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#2954 Bader

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Posted 29 May 2004 - 10:47 PM

evangelical warrier, Rumsfeld's reformer of Abu Ghaib prison,
subordinate of Cambone equally despised by peers.
Covered by the Guardian:

http://www.guardian....1220622,00.html

These dangerous and myopic people, including Bush, are selected
(appointed) to fulfill a plan or stage. They are not selected on merit as the public thinks the world (private and public sectors) is run.
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#2955 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 29 May 2004 - 11:33 PM

Bader; *These dangerous and myopic people, including Bush, are selected
(appointed) to fulfill a plan or stage. They are not selected on merit as the public thinks the world (private and public sectors) is run.*

It is meaningless what Bush will select, situation will not change.


* I make no reference to the ordinary people/families who may
call themselves jews, evangelicals, socialists, greens, new-age
what ever, they are all the little animals, subject to inside and outside lion culture that is to all appearances in order and certainly well desguised by numbers. My beef is the upper strata that cuts across ALL the labels, abusing power, who surely cannot plead innocence. These are the ones who will have to give an account for the starving children etc.*

Bader; Problem is that everybody sees priorities. General unified position millions Muslims from Indonesia, Pakistan to Arabic nations would give freedom to Iraqi and Palestinians, but they don
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#2956 donquijote

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Posted 30 May 2004 - 02:05 AM

<I have said it before and I repeat again for this discusion which is much bigger than ones we have had recently and is
appropriate given the centre stage of post Sept 11.- LABELS are
often meaningless and part of the smoke and mirrors.
And it is part of the point you make Donq, that the Lion has
intruded into the culture (internally) and not just externally. We have covered aspects of this subversion re education, media,
politics etc which all contribute to our way of life besides the
laws of money. You said it goes back to Pharoah, and I have said Babylon, and in fact back to the "Garden", as you said Satan is the Lion.>

Right on, my good friend Bader. We shouldn't be fooled by the labels--which are no more than plain, old-fashioned lion camouflage. As you said before, Satan the Lion is a faker, and that's a good way to spot him: look of the camouflage! Then if the camouflage is too perfect, look for the fruit of his actions. If you don't know assume he's a lion. "All saints are assumed guilty until proven innocent," said Orwell.

By the way, you think this is camouflage too or he's real? I'll try to write him.:confused:

"We can't accept any longer, given the changes in the world and the attitude of the people, the law of the jungle"
-French President Jacques Chirac

<I make no reference to the ordinary people/families who may
call themselves jews, evangelicals, socialists, greens, new-age
what ever, they are all the little animals, subject to inside and outside lion culture that is to all appearances in order and certainly well desguised by numbers. My beef is the upper strata that cuts across ALL the labels, abusing power, who surely cannot plead innocence. These are the ones who will have to give an account for the starving children etc. >

Exactly. But they sleep in fear. The lie is catching up with the lion. Only the Truth can make you free.;)
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#2957 donquijote

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Posted 30 May 2004 - 02:25 AM

<Even You, me and Donq can not find common ground , because for both for you is most important food on the table and feed the hungry children (for you for children sake and in case of Donq for US victory reason, when for me the nation independence and sovereignty for any price.>

Woj, independence without control of the WATER WELL amounts to pretty declarations. Food on the table of starving children is important, so these children won't be cheap labor or cannon fodder for the lion when they grow up. Scarcity works beautiful for the lion. Remember the little animals must come to him...

This how the lion benefits from the desert...

"More loans without reforms may help Argentine politicians, but they will not help the Argentine people. Financial crises have increased globally over the past decade as the IMF and the World Bank have poured greater resources into indebted countries. Only domestically driven reforms will improve the Argentine economy. The Bush Administration should support further loans to Argentina only when its leaders create and begin to implement a credible plan for long-term reform."

Notice the candid opening sentence? Notice the double-speak at the end? The lion keeps handing money to the little lions so they keep the little animals dependent on the predators.

http://www.heritage....erica/EM888.cfm

But it's OK we don't agree on a common ground. I think we agree on the lion.;)

<Life of nation is more important than life of single individual. People are replenishing material.
Of course I, like everybody else, don-t apply this conviction to myself.>

Who's more important the lion or the little animals?:confused:
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#2958 Bader

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Posted 30 May 2004 - 09:14 AM

That you have got Chirac taking your language DonQ?

Did you ask me what I thought of Chirac- genuine or not? Hard to tell, they have a different mind-set which can be refreshing.
He says/speaks well and one would hope he is able to be genuine. "able " being the operative word. THe UE is a lion
empire so I do not trust he is able.

Israel like the mafia is a good comparison and thus the US which blocks all the UN resolutions to bring the mob to heal is the corrupt judge who is never convicts.

Woj, - Life of the nation more important
one can look at the same thing from a different angle/disposition and one can look at things that are not related,
worlds apart. We 3-4 disagree but we also have a lot of ground to associate and even agree.
Life of the nation more important- I would in the first instance disagree, in the same way I would say systems are for peoples
benefit not the reverse. However the nation is the greater social unit within which people find-fulfill their lives/ are protected/
have faith for the future/stability. So from a certain perspective I
could agree given the realities of life - that life isnt good to all anyway, one could assume that the greater benefit for the majority serves well on the law of avergages. That is not unreasonable and one could even argue that is what happens in a stable democracy- the majority are reasonably happy and it can not be otherwise for the minority who may not be.
But, a slight variance on the importance of the collective first can also mean that the negative dynamics of communism for example and the abuse of power means that the minority - rather than being the natural outcome of social pressures is instead the result of political pressures of a very small elite.
So it is the latter over which we are not in agreance rather than
the former.
Thus the main reason I start from the point of view of the individual is that the sovereignty of the individual is for me paramount and the sovereingty of the nation is only as representing that of the people and only has power/importance in relationship with other collective/state entities. So that the nations state cannot threaten the individual who is within the law, because the sovereingty of the individual prevents it.
This is Magna Carta stuff- so the church, state, Baron, and today
corporates, international bankers and party politics cannot usurp the peoples sovereignty. And they certainly cant usurp the state sovereignty because the state reps are only temporary unlike the people. When any power entities become permanent the people become temporary. How do you unit tempoaray people?
(apart from a common cemetary)

Applying conviction to oneself:
Easier said than done, but individuals who have no earthly goods
eg Jesus and Ghandi it was a lot easier becaus they had nothing to loose but their lives and no debt and no children to care for. But they cared for everyone else. Thats the points of comparison
(we have discussed these two before) I have and otherwise they are very different as well.
It easier for people to agree under seige than when they are
happy. And so the Lion will get his world govt through seige
and severe straights of fear.
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#2959 Bader

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Posted 30 May 2004 - 09:36 AM

That paragraph on Agentina is a good summary of the
political-economic mumbo jumbo that the world is sprayed with by the educaters, media and politicians.

The loans will bring tighter straights, period! The IMF loans are the pretext to dictating policies on govts which will not benefit the people but in fact benefit the bankers even more. The politicians are the mugs in the middle who being paid well and in
the position to prosper one way or another will be too well off to suffer along with much of the population.
As you say DonQ the animals need their own waterwell which is also the key part of Wojs goal of freedom and sovereignty - in order that the citizens may prosper.
The only plan of reform needed is the animals own water well.
Bush should keep his loans and armies within his own border
and reform his own country and provide their own waterwell
then the bankers couldnt compel them to support their mafia cousins in the middle east.
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#2960 donquijote

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Posted 30 May 2004 - 03:03 PM

<That you have got Chirac taking your language DonQ?

Did you ask me what I thought of Chirac- genuine or not? Hard to tell, they have a different mind-set which can be refreshing.
He says/speaks well and one would hope he is able to be genuine. "able " being the operative word. THe UE is a lion
empire so I do not trust he is able.>

Howdy Bader
No, it would have been coincidence, but not next time though. I JUST SENT IT TO HIM via Email. But as you say the problem with the jungle is that it doesn't much dissent and even lions can be swallowed whole if it represents any serious challenge to it.:confused: Let's pray for the best, and be ready for the worst.

The worst being that we are not going to recieve any help from lions, so we must turn to the little people. The hope lies in the Proles...;)

<It easier for people to agree under seige than when they are
happy. And so the Lion will get his world govt through seige
and severe straights of fear.>

Exactly, when the animals must come to the waterhole the lion controls they are already very weak, and must thank the lion for being so kind to them...:confused:
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