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#3161 donquijote

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Posted 27 June 2004 - 04:15 PM

Woj, this is how you deal with the lion: Don't feed him!;)

"Concerned citizens and governments all over the world must organize a comprehensive campaign of economic disinvestment and divestment from Israel along the same lines of what they did to the former criminal apartheid regime in South Africa. This original worldwide...campaign played a critical role in dismantling the criminal apartheid regime in South Africa. For much the same reasons, a worldwide disinvestment/divestment campaign against Israel will play a critical role in dismantling its criminal apartheid regime against the Palestinian people living in occupied Palestine as well as in Israel
itself." Francis Boyle, Professor International Law, University of Illinois

Describing Israel's treatment of Palestinians as like white apartheid in South Africa, Nobel laureate Desmond Tutu who won the Nobel Prize by inspiring a non-violent uprising that led to the dismantling of the racist white regime in South Africa urged a similar movement in the US. "We are free today in South Africa because people like yourselves," he told a group of demonstrators in Boston (Globe).

more...;)

http://www.divest-fr...l-campaign.org/
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#3162 donquijote

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Posted 27 June 2004 - 04:55 PM

Here's all the links you can possibly want on Peace and Justice...;)

http://www.aljazeera...s and Links.htm
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#3163 donquijote

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Posted 27 June 2004 - 04:58 PM

" Dissent is the highest form of patriotism."

--Thomas Jefferson

(I found it at the links above. There's everything there.);)
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#3164 donquijote

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Posted 27 June 2004 - 07:04 PM

The story of the Law of the Jungle will be published in Al Jazeera tomorrow, June 28th...;)

http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage
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#3165 Bader

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Posted 27 June 2004 - 07:21 PM

Jonathon Freedland didnt do justice to the subject of comparing the US and the Roman Empire.
Compared to Tupper Saussy he doesnt know the half of it.
For anyone new tuppersaussy.com has his book Ruler of Evil online which shows Vatican (Rome) behind the formation of the US
who are also in The Crown in the City of London like Vatican City
is not subject to national govt.

We have already covered The Crown behind the City of London and Wall Street. The US is just an extention of the Empire rooted in Europe but which goes right back to ancient Babylon including the secret societies of the illuminati family and the two most powerfuol religious institutions.

Freedland can never expose the Lion because he has tangled himself in lion-historyography.
He tells of pioners who battled as though they were an organised
invasion, of an imperial nation a conquering nation when Russia had Alaska, Mexico Calofornia and Texas and both the French and British rulled over area with the fueding Indians for and against.
Then later Freedland said America was established as a rebellion against empire.
He should make up his mind which way he wants to walk, he cant walk two contrary ways at the same time. He should ask Bush for job.
I think he gets confused by the argument he starts out with when he ends up saying the US cannot accept their current role as master. They think they are superior (number one), they are right and defending that, which is what Bush played on when he said the terrorist hate American freedom etc.
We had it expressed by several who joined this thread early on
saying how they would kick arse big time, so indignant of how superior and right they were.
He talked of the Romans seducing conquered people. Most of Britain was occupied by treaty (bribery) and the benefits of trade
and development which was to follow, much like free market
today, but to suggest the natives flocked to baths and central heating become the norm in every cottage like everyone goes to McDonalds today is nonsense.
The Romans had to send their best Generals to Britian to effect their rule and failed to "capture" it all and a woman and daughter scorned drove them out as a dominant military power. The usual method of winning in any battle for an area on Britain was by
paying a treasonous faction who betrayed their own, much like US policy today.
The British had superior weapons such as the chariot with syths protruding out of the axils, were more ferocious in battle
and they had schools of learning which is not politically correct to mention. The trend for a long time was to suggest that civilisation was taken to Britian by the Romans.
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#3166 Bader

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Posted 27 June 2004 - 07:49 PM

The war on resourses is a natural outcome of the debt system.
Even if people stopped consuming the debt has to be repayed and the interest which means that the facturies and the mines,
agriculture, forestry etc have to go producing and consuming the resourses. When resourses start to run out over "here" they will
by hook or by crook move to the resourses over "there". The forces behind the moneypower, directly and indirectly are too strong for resistance because at the last resort the military will prevail where all other forces have failed.
The debt is so huge around the world the system has to move to global structures to maintain it which is why there has to be a NWO. The transformation in the political and commercial and academic fields all follow the power drives for reform. Political parties are like plastic bags blown around in the wind and the public trying to come to grips with it all, while the polies double speak to hide the truth of what is realy happening.
The dynamics of the debt money system is greater than what the
US military can do for the Empire.
If you read Bushs National Defense Strategy you can read this between the lines. THe US military will enforce reforms where
there is oposition to the IMF and WTO etc. All the world must come under the same banker and the resourses are the collateral
and the future generation s and their labour.

The purpose of the US people becoming more scared as the war against terror proceeds is the same reason the planners have deliberately insulted and provoked Islamic hatred for them is to enflame the threats to generate terrorism beyond that which the
Empire created through the Mossad/CIA to get it going, the reason the Twin Towers and other building not hit were destroyed
so the Patriot Act etc can happen, the centralising of all intelligence which increases power against the American people
is to destroyed the American peoples belief in their heritage and culture because it is the biggest hinderance to a One World Govt.
They have to stop thinking they are number one, abandon their constitution.
You dont have to look very hard to see the planned destruction
of their military, finances/economy, image abroad etc.
Like Hussein they are used and destroyed.
Muslim hatred didnt come first. Ask the Empire why they hate freedom and lay eggs everywhere that hatch into monsters.
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#3167 donquijote

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Posted 27 June 2004 - 11:26 PM

<I think he gets confused by the argument he starts out with when he ends up saying the US cannot accept their current role as master. They think they are superior (number one), they are right and defending that, which is what Bush played on when he said the terrorist hate American freedom etc.>

Howdy Bader
I think America doesn't boast about having conquered Iraq. She is simply content to get her resources, cheap labor and brains. Meanwhile average Americans are probably proud to have brought "democracy" to an uncivilized people. Rather ungrateful people they are...:confused:

'To the Iraqis, this might look like a formula for neocolonialism - local elites, protected by a government and legal system, "freely" engaging in commercial deals with international corporations to their individual enrichment.'

Democracy - or Colonialism in Iraq?
by George E. Bisharat

President Bush, in a major policy speech February 26, finally revealed that the real, strategic justification for invading Iraq is the need to install a democracy - and thereby catalyze democratic reforms throughout the Arab world. Don't bet on it. Apart from the inherent contradiction in establishing democracy at the point of a gun, there is ample reason to be skeptical that this "mission civilatrice" - as the French called their similarly well intentioned and thoroughly misguided colonial effort - will even make it out of the starting gate. The U.S. Middle East alliance system leans heavily on kings, sheikhs, and dictators. The CIA has backed numerous coups against democratic governments, most notably against legally elected Prime Minister Mossadeq in Iran in 1953. Currently we are working to depose Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat, who won 88% of the vote in the freest elections witnessed in the region in the last decade. Supporting Iraqi democracy would run completely counter to our tradition.

One of the groups that has been active in the U.S.-backed Iraqi opposition seeks restoration of the Hashemite monarchy, swept away in the first republican coup in Iraq in 1958. Not a recipe for democracy, one would think. Of those touted over the last year to head an Iraqi government, one, former general Nizar al-Khazraji, has been implicated in the gassings of Kurds in 1988, and is now under house arrest in Denmark. Another, Ahmad Chalabi, was convicted on bank fraud charges in Jordan and fled that country in the trunk of a car.

Nor is it clear that the neo-conservatives running Bush administration foreign policy will be ready to accept the kind of democracy envisioned by the Iraqis themselves. Four points of potential divergence seem likely.

First, democracy, to the Bush "neo-cons", means elections, the rule of law, and free enterprise. To the Iraqis, this might look like a formula for neocolonialism - local elites, protected by a government and legal system, "freely" engaging in commercial deals with international corporations to their individual enrichment. Given past history and ideology, Iraqis might prefer a command economy and welfare state, privileging economic and social rights over civil and political rights - the latter being seen as a luxury for more stable conditions and more prosperous states. Whether the neo-cons will be amenable to such a version of Iraqi democracy is doubtful. We know what to call a "democracy" that is not of the choosing of the governed.

http://www.commondre...s03/0306-03.htm
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#3168 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 28 June 2004 - 02:06 AM

Woj, What a pity you don't believe in the power of the Proles to challenge the lion. Actually you believe in a "good lion" challenging the bad lion. "

No Actually I want Slav Lion to won US/UK lion.

*Hail Bush: A new Roman empire * -no rather Gengis Khan
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#3169 donquijote

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Posted 28 June 2004 - 02:47 AM

<No Actually I want Slav Lion to won US/UK lion.>

Woj, we better romantisize about old empires and not want a fight between such mighty lions with nuclear teeth and paws...;)
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#3170 donquijote

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Posted 28 June 2004 - 03:38 AM

This is a very interesting article about Bush (surprise!) being a sociopath... But what caught my attention even more is this smart comment putting the blame on the media! As you know, I propose an independent media.

What he doesn't explain though is how Tony Blair is still in power. But, of course, you can always argue that the BBC was forced into voluntary censorship...;)

Socialized Psychopath, George W Bush, America's Number One Evildoer
author: Loren Franklin

As a Cherokee/Irish/French American, I watch in amazement as my country continually allows the destruction of the worlds poorest peoples and their eco systems by socialized psychopathic plutocrats. We elect them. We idolize them. We suffer at their hands.

George W Bush is the worst to come along in years.
Socialized Psychopath, George W Bush,
America's Number One Evildoer

It has been my observation that this country has an ongoing, self destructive, annoying habit of appointing sociopaths and socialized psychopaths to political posts. It seems that we are fascinated by these personality types. We make them out to be heroes in our movies. We admire them when they climb to the top of corporate ladders and devastate the lives of less fortunate humans in Third World sweat shops, not to mention American sweat shops. I offer you Phil Knight of Nike as a quick example. We make national heroes out of mass murders and fill our children's history books with half truths and outright lies about them. And now, here in "The Land Of The Free And The Brave," we have appointed to the presidency, via the CIA and the Supreme Court, one of the most psychopathic individuals to ever stalk the halls of the White House.

(snip)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe , Denmark. jt@c.dk link

You'll ever never get a healthy democracy as long as you don't have a big Public Service TV-/Radio-channel,
independent of economic and political interests,
with a board representing people from all sides of society (working class, religion, politics, science etc.),
and which are rooted in the Constitution by financial funding and rules,that cannot be altered without the consent of 2 different Presidents of The USA.
Look to Norway (NRK), Denmark (DR), Sweden (SR), England (BBC).
And there are other countries with the same media-solution.
You GOT to establish a Public Media Channel in USA. And very soon.
Best wishes for you.
Regards. Joe.

http://portland.indy...1/10/4188.shtml
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#3171 Bader

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Posted 28 June 2004 - 10:28 AM

He's certainly not a Gengis Khan, who was talented and a military
genius.
Try Jerry Lewis Woj. Better still Alf E Neuman. (what, me worry!)

The last few segments were much better DonQ.

The first emotions the Americans had were probably revenge for
Sept 11.
The second was probably, well we didnt get it quite right but we showed ?m that it will cost big time to mess with our homeland.
The third is probably going to be as you put it: how ungreatful
for all the help we have given them.
The fourth will be (given that it will remain a mess as it is now):
well you can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink.
The fifth will be: how hopeless, its just a hotbed of terrorism to plague the world, so lets nuke them and get that oil freed up
to save the world economy, then everyone will appreciate what we went through.
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#3172 Bader

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Posted 28 June 2004 - 10:56 AM

The Penatgon has told Congress their troopps are likely to be
stuck in Iraq for years,
Wolfowitz has estimated that it will cost $60 billion between now and the end of next year.
I bet it will cost a lot more.
Their biggest regret is probably that these costs are just on one country, they should have taken Syria and Saudi Arabia as well for the costs that are building up.
Perhaps they will press on to offset the outcome against the cost
to try and create a better perspective- major reform of core of the Middle East, the core of terrorisms nursery cealed off and total protection for two major sourses of oil.
They could create a major blockage of oil in the process, blame insurgents, to cause France and Germany to free NATO to join in to save the UE economy from the oil seige.
There is no evidence anything is being done to create something positive and constructive so I suspect that a deteriorating of the
situation and surrounding countries are the means of a way forward to achieve further goals
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#3173 donquijote

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Posted 28 June 2004 - 11:58 AM

<The first emotions the Americans had were probably revenge for
Sept 11.
The second was probably, well we didnt get it quite right but we showed ?m that it will cost big time to mess with our homeland.
The third is probably going to be as you put it: how ungreatful
for all the help we have given them.
The fourth will be (given that it will remain a mess as it is now):
well you can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink.
The fifth will be: how hopeless, its just a hotbed of terrorism to plague the world, so lets nuke them and get that oil freed up
to save the world economy, then everyone will appreciate what we went through. >

Howdy Bader
Rather funny...:D

But probably the first sentiments of Americans--even the French sided with America--were those of sorrow and confusion. It could have gone into once and for all IMPLEMENT JUSTICE. But, of course, we had an Emperor for something. The rest is history.

Americans were then stirred into vengeance, then into indiffence toward a small, far away war, and finally into opposition as the cost in lives and money mounted.

In the end, it may come down to WMDs, to save the free flow of oil for democracies, of course...;)

PS: I recommend the cartoons at Al Jazeera. They are the best.:cool:

http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage
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#3174 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 28 June 2004 - 01:04 PM

ULAN BATOR, Mongolia - By pony, foot and motorbike, Mongolians made their way to polling centers Sunday to vote in their fifth parliamentary elections since the end of communist rule.

Nomadic herders were traveling up to 15 miles to cast ballots in traditional tents on the Gobi Desert..
Polls indicated that the formerly communist ruling party, which won 72 of the 76 seats in the Great Hural assembly in 2000 elections, would dominate voting for the new parliament.
Mongolia suffered a steep economic decline following the end of communist rule in 1990.
U.S., British, French and other Western embassies and a private monitoring group were sending observers to oversee voting in Mongolia's 21 provinces.
The ruling Mongolian People's Revolutionary Party, or MPRP, was voted out of power in 1996. It returned in a landslide victory in 2000..:) Democratic Union Coalition (DUC is out and MRRP
has focused on social welfare and public order priorities. :)
"All this advertising is too much. The MPRP is clearly in control of the mass media," said Genev Nasanurt, a 23-year-old accountant.
But he said he still planned to vote for the ruling party. :)
"http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=516&ncid=516&e=7&u=/ap/20040627/ap_on_re_as/mongolia_elections

It is nice hear that regardless how U.S., British, French and other Western embassies mendling in Mongolia election , Gingis Han ancestors they have the brain and elect communist party. one can call that it is not communism but rule of communist party. :)
@ monitoring the election by *western democracies* is not accident looking in Mongolia resources.
Natural resources:
OIL , coal, copper, molybdenum, tungsten, phosphates, tin, nickel, zinc, wolfram, fluorspar, gold, silver, iron, phosphate

Donq; Scandinavian cooperation was very much visible during Sweden
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#3175 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 28 June 2004 - 01:21 PM

Bader; @The purpose of the US people becoming more scared as the war against terror proceeds is the same reason the planners have deliberately insulted and provoked Islamic hatred for them is to enflame the threats to generate terrorism beyond that which the
Empire created through the Mossad/CIA to get it going, the reason the Twin Towers and other building not hit were destroyed
so the Patriot Act etc can happen, the centralising of all intelligence which increases power against the American people
is to destroyed the American peoples belief in their heritage and culture because it is the biggest hinderance to a One World Govt.@

Difference between Roman and American empires is the basic;
Israel was ruled by Roma Cesars, when US Empire is ruled by Israel (what dr. Mahathir accurately noticed) by proxy. :)
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#3176 donquijote

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Posted 28 June 2004 - 02:01 PM

My proposal...

'Something to think about: While the prohibition of drugs has been largely ineffective and costly (in money, lives, crime), regulated legalization -like that of Holland- can be a better solution to both addiction and crime. And living free from fear of crime should be treated as a basic need of society. In general, our policy should be that of "teaching them how fish," not of "giving them the fish." The final form of this system would be determined by the acceptance of the people themselves: Each and everyone of these proposals should be submitted to referendum. And, the basis of everything else: We should learn to live, not FROM, but WITH Nature. This would amount to COMING OUT OF THE JUNGLE.'

I touched up the original proposal a little bit. DRUGS is a major problem and part of the official hypocrisy, and countries like Colombia and Afghanistan are falling apart because of it. Meanwhile the gravest crimes happening in tolerant Amsterdam is...pickpocketing.;)

Likewise, LIVING FREE FROM FEAR OF CRIME should not be treated as an accident or something you buy when you get rich enough to live in a guarded luxury compound. We should go to the root causes of it. It's funny that now that Iraqis are "free and democratic," they live terrorized under the fear of crime.:confused:

"Anyone who owns a car faces the threat of carjacking, as bold bandits stage assaults in broad daylight, often killing their victims as an afterthought."

Crime Casts Fear in Iraq
Residents, like Hussein's former physician, who felt safe under the old regime are now being terrorized by killers, thieves and vandals.
By John Daniszewski
Los Angeles Times

Sunday 03 August 2003

BAGHDAD -- A man walked into Dr. Mohammed Alrawi's private clinic in an upscale part of the capital last Sunday moaning and complaining so loudly of kidney pain that he was ushered straight past waiting patients.

Inside, the "patient" immediately pulled out a pistol and shot the doctor through his right eye, killing him.

As the gunman dashed out, he passed Alrawi's wife, Bushra, who also practices medicine at the clinic. "I looked at his face. I will never forget that face," she recalled.

"I went to my husband. I saw him collapsed in his chair. I hugged him while his blood covered the floor."

Murder is stalking this city. In the aftermath of the U.S. campaign to oust Saddam Hussein, residents who have no memory of violent street crime during his iron-fisted rule are now being terrorized by killers - not to mention thieves and vandals - whose motives range from retribution to rapaciousness. The crime wave poses a challenge for the U.S.-led occupation as it grapples with a multitude of problems - electricity shortages, joblessness and a guerrilla campaign among them - that have destabilized this shattered country. Iraqi police have started to work, but ineffectually. They defer to the U.S. soldiers, who often have no clue about what is going on in the streets and alleys around them.

Alrawi, 52, was a former dean of Baghdad University, physician to Hussein and chairman of the Iraqi Physicians Syndicate. His family believes he is the latest victim of reprisal killings aimed at prominent members of the former Hussein government. Others think that is farfetched - maybe it was a personal vendetta of some sort, they say, or a botched robbery.

As hundreds of his relatives, friends and colleagues mourned Alrawi at his funeral Wednesday, trying to make sense of the crime, officials with the Iraqi police and the U.S.-led occupation authority said they had no information about the investigation. At the Yarmouk police station, the U.S. staff sergeant in charge struggled to remember the case. His Iraqi interpreter, trying to help, reminded him that Alrawi was a very important man.

Once-privileged families such as the Alrawis have been left vulnerable and confused in the wake of Hussein's fall. Sunni Muslims who enjoyed favor under the Baath Party, they now live in fear of retribution from poorer sectors.

But others are being targeted as well.

People who work with the U.S. authorities have been victims. Haifa Aziz Daoud, the manager of an electricity distribution office in Baghdad, was gunned down in June by someone who rang her doorbell at 7 a.m. She died in her daughter's arms. Seven newly graduated police recruits in the city of Ramadi were blown up by a bomb set in a bag of rice last month. And the U.S.-sponsored mayor in Haditha was shot to death with his son while driving around the western Iraqi city.

Anyone who owns a car faces the threat of carjacking, as bold bandits stage assaults in broad daylight, often killing their victims as an afterthought.

http://www.truthout....3/080403F.shtml
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#3177 donquijote

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Posted 28 June 2004 - 03:31 PM

This site is so good that I linked it up to mine, but I haven't even found a contact email.:confused:

Its subject, hypocrisy, is at the heart of the lie-on problem, as we all know...;)

Why we're going to war:

-because we can
-so Bush the Younger is a shoo-in for a second term (and perhaps a third?)
-Wag the Dog?
-we are the only bullies left since the USSR dissolved
-to grab control of the oil supplies (who do you think that will benefit most?)
-so Bush the Younger can wear one of those commander in chief hats
-to distract attention from Reagan's (another Republican) screwed up economy
-nobody can kick sand in Charles Atlas' face and get away with it
-all of the above
-none of the above

Why not Saudi Arabia?
After all, most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi

Should we intervene in another country and perhaps assassinate their leader?
Sure. We reinstated the Shah in Iran after he was deposed by a democratic government (Mossadeg). We intervened in the Philippines after WWII to install ?. We overthrew governments in Guatemala, Nicaragua. We interfered in Chile, Haiti, Cuba, China, Viet Nam.

So why not Iraq?

http://hypocrisytoday.com/war.html
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#3178 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 28 June 2004 - 08:29 PM

Donq; @Let's go to war. Why not?@

It is a nothing new for Americans;

Should the U.S. invest in building new nuclear power plants?

Yes 84%

No 16%

http://discussions.w...inside_today_us

Majority Americans is aware that it is easy to reassign the nuclear power plants in nuclear bomb plants. :)
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#3179 donquijote

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Posted 28 June 2004 - 10:30 PM

This is an interesting insight from a Jewish friend...;)

Hi Joel

You corroborate my feelings that kibbutz are not a failure, but that they are under attack. Perhaps they represent a bad example for those who want to live without the lion.

Tell me if you don't feel comfortable with the jungle parallel, but it helps understand that the lion and the people are two different things. I make a few comments...

>The Kibbutz system in Israel is being dismantled by the neo-liberal policies
>implemented by both the Likud and Labor parties. The Ashkenazi kibbutzim
>are being privatized under one set of laws that direct proceeds into the
>pockets of a few Ashkenazi Jews. The Mizrachi (Sephardic and Arab Jews)
>kibbutzim are being privatized under a different set of laws that direct
>proceeds into the pocket of the State, not the Mizrachi Jews.
>
>
>
>Within Israel, the Mizrachim represent second-class citizens. The
>Palestinian Israelis are third-class citizens. The top dogs are the
>Ashkenazi (German/Eastern European) Jews. This is entirely by design.

OK, so in the end many Jews are victims too. It seems to me that EVERYWHERE we have a few predators making conflict and preying on the weak. I know it happens among the Palestinians too.

>
>
>
>The creation and maintenance of the constant war with the Palestinians
>provides significant benefits to the Israeli military and economic elites,
>who are, to an overwhelming extent, Ashkenazi. The war unites and pacifies
>the general Israeli population even as their entire social and economic
>fabric is being ripped apart for the aggrandizement of the small elites.
>The implementation of neo-liberal economic policies would result in a
>general upheaval if there were not the
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#3180 Bader

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Posted 29 June 2004 - 01:20 AM

Its the existence of the Beast projected through the various political structures (the simularity of policy/objective) that is the issue not the differences between X and the Roman Empire.

I mad eht point before its all in Daniels interpretation of the King of Babylons dream.

Jerry Lewis was a comedian who starred with Dean Martin (who apparently couldnt stand him) but they were very popular in the late fifties and into the sixties. Lewis was the twit who put his foot in everything while Deano charmed the glamorous girls.
Playing the role of a BellBoy he was told to bring in the luggage from the boot of the clients car (VW). He stagged into the room with the motor in his arms.

Alf E Neuman was the "mascot" of Mad magazine (cartoon) that took the mickie out of everything that represented american culture to use a broad term. Dont know if they are still going, if they are they must be having a field day with the Bush jihad.
He also had the appearance of a twit, with eyes a little too close together like someone else.

Sad the murders in Iraq, only the well off can afford a body guard.
I wonder if there will be another jewish creation like the Russian mafia develop, would be highly likely with political corruption well
established.
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