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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#3361 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 22 July 2004 - 12:35 PM

Bader; Diet for cancer.,
Do you know that people attacked by many types of cancer are subjected to the most restrictive died. Idea is that concern cells are halted in unfed body. Parasite seeds grow on good soil comparatively better to sand or rock. And this is what Polish want. Diet for cancer. So would be no money for keeping 6200 Polish soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq and Serbia and Kosovo. As situation is now the Polish government is cutting pensions ( limit for inflation 5%) , removing money for companies employing people with physical disabilities etc. Practically Poland keeps the coalition forces on cost of old , poor and disable. In this situation when people are poor, church has problem to collect money for themselves; , still Church didn
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#3362 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 22 July 2004 - 01:37 PM

Bader;@ Mr Lepper would get a lot of support from these people Woj if he wants to have Poland control its own money supply (debt free).
The main reason countries want to join the UE is because of the money needs but its all debt and that means no sovereignty-
pawnbroking.@



Lepper can not do anything; Media in Poland are in IMF, NWO hands.
Balcerowicz increases the interest rate to AVOID Polish CONSUMPTION , Poland has 20% or even more unemployment !

At the he same time money of Polish Security Found are kept in foreign banks on 1% interest rate. sic.
On money borrowed from IMF Poland pays about 10%.
Lepper participation in discussion on Polish money is simply removed from TV3,. . Presentation from parliament is out of screen and 2 witches talk about
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#3363 donquijote

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Posted 22 July 2004 - 01:47 PM

Hey guys, I'll try catching up later.

In the meantime, I'm recycling here a post about the proper use of the means of production among the different quadrants. But it's exemplified by the "fishing poles." It's real funny...;)

> >>As a left libertarian, I'd have a well-stocked supply of fishing
> >>poles available on a first come-first served basis at some place
> >>convenient to the fishing hole.
> >
> > Perhaps, but not from the government - that would be state imposed
> > collectivism, clearly in my quadrant.
> >
> > No, your kind would wait for an independent charity to form that would
> > give fishing poles to the needy. In the meantime, here's a nice color
> > brochure about fishing to read while you starve to death ...
>
> No, we'll build a hut down by the fishing hole. You leave your
> fishing pole and Tanika will drop off her old refrigerator. When I
> feel like fishing I'll borrow the pole. When I'm done I'll put the
> pole back in the hut and put any fish I can't eat in the fridge for
> you and Tanika to share.
>

That's not nice. But communism will be worse...

They decide that there's too many people unemployed in capitalism and
rule that everybody in town work for the goverment's fishing
enterprise. There's no bait--due to bureaucratic oversight--but
everybody spends their days waiting for something to happen... ;)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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#3364 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 22 July 2004 - 01:54 PM

Donq; @We, right and left libertarians can choose to compete leaving out both the bad lion and the fox. We don't have to share the same viewpoints. To think that we are going to change all people into flower people is both wishful thinking and undesirable. Maybe too boring without competition.
We must expand the principle of democracy into the economics. The need for it can also be explained in terms of Yin and Yang. We need a balance of both, and there is an element of the other in each. Also we can argue that it can only is wishful thinking that the coops will take care of all business. The decision making of the corporation is unrivalled. They can also take risks. And if they are too bad, it's our gain...@


When Orwell tries to discredit communism he uses example of two pigs roaring on the farm.
How you would the Orwell pigs set in this well balanced competing coop, expanding the principle of democracy into the economics?
It is question of transformation and implamentation
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#3365 donquijote

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Posted 22 July 2004 - 02:00 PM

> > Exactly. And then he may hand the leftovers and tell you that you must
> > pray and be thankful. ;)
>
> Political compass is particularly depressing for those of us in the
> lower right quadrant, with very few icons for us to look up to except
> a few economists, and no political figures at all. Virtually all
> politicians are distilled onto a line traversing the authoritarian
> right and the libertarian left. All the result of a variant Duverger's
> Law reflecting cultural tribalism I suppose.

Howdy. Few politicias would come to the rescue of something where's
little dough. I'd argue that even those found in the left-libertarian
quadrant are just sitting there doing nothing. They really don't
belong there. I see Charles Chaplin or Michael Moore being there but
not Mandela or Dalai Lama. These lick to the lion one way or
another... ;)

The lower quadrants is about DOERS, not poseurs... ;)
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#3366 donquijote

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Posted 22 July 2004 - 02:19 PM

Here he is saying "no" to the big lion, and then befriending the little lion--who know befriended the big lion. Where does he stand?;)

"How can they have the arrogance to dictate to us where we should go or which countries should be our friends? Gadhafi is my friend. He supported us when we were alone and when those who tried to prevent my visit here today were our enemies. They have no morals. We
cannot accept that a state assumes the role of the world's policeman."
-Nelson Mandela, 1997

http://members.aol.c...ue/homepage.htm
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#3367 donquijote

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Posted 22 July 2004 - 02:55 PM

"We must expand the principle of democracy into economics"

<Thats the critical issue DonQ.
The Right could then carry on their interest in private business
owned directly by individuals or groups and companies arent necessarily accountable to shareholders like they should
(certainly nothing like coop owners);
while the left can form coops of any size- multi-ownership;
and the majority of the people who arent in those two
collectives of misconception can do either.
It is fruitless choosing between left and right anything because they are both puppets off the same puppeteer in the current financial scheme of things.
Voting power (with the feet, out of the back pocket) that is there everyday, rather than a meaningless political vote once every three to four years, is real democracy.
The Libertarian Right who want everyone to take care of their own needs, who dont want to pay taxes for others benefit, think that just shutting the door on everyone else make them all go away- this is the ostrich approach. A square metre of sand solves all problems (that is one square metre to per head ).
The left libertarians if they are into coops are more realist and
practical. People can survive afloat in the sea attached in groups
where-as individuals will weaken and surcomb to the physical and psychological fatals. But if we have economic democracy no
one is lost at sea treading water, they are on solid ground using their feet to vote with.>

Bader, I totally endorse your analysis. And I have a further argument for it: In not ruling out greed as a force in human relations, we will not unleash the forces of hypocrisy and counterrevolution...;)

When the Russian Revolution moved to repress it, it was already in the grips of hypocrisy and counterrevolution, which ultimately led to its own downfall. Good for the big lion...;)
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#3368 donquijote

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Posted 22 July 2004 - 03:34 PM

<Here is one paragraph from Diane Boucher's (M.Sc, M.A.) address at the three day seminar at Zakopane, Poland- (The first part of her speach is in the jounal also)

"The associatiuon of men in production gives rise to unearned increment, which is growing enormously more important than the earned increment. The ownership of real credit is common or social because the cultural inheritance and the increment of association are commonly and socially owned: "It is both pragmatically and ethically undeniable that the ownership of these intangible factors vests in the members of the living community, without distinction, as tenants-for-life. Ethically, because it is an inheritance from the labours of past generations of scientists, organisers,, and administrators, and pragnatically, because the denial of its communal character sets in motion disruptive forces, threatening, as at the present time, its destruction." "

The words she quoted came from Douglas.

I will translate that in terms of a Kibbutz/coop.
Real credit is the skills,knowledge, tools, machinery/technology,
plant and buildings etc owned by the coop/people.
In the present system they can be monetarised- used as colateral
to secure a bank loan because as a going concern the coop can repay using the real credits income. Note who owns the real credit -
the basis of producing money- not the banksters but the people!
So in an economic democracy the people can monetarise their
national real credit themselves and not borrow mere figures on paper from the banks with a debt accumulating against them.
The continued expasion of the real credit over time and generations becomes afar greater incemental gain (cultural inheritance) for the people than the increment that come from the present generation now existing and running the enterprise.
Because nationally the real credit of the nation goes on through generations, each generation is really tenants for life with the duty to preserve and protect what they inherited for nothing for their own childrens future. Personal property and savings arent so important in a such a society because there is no cause to fear
for the future and ones needs- in contrast to our present system. In the debt driven rat race people have to more selfishly try and secure both property and savings because the system isnt designed to serve (prosperity and security for people/individual, only an elite.
There is no question about the social input and ownership when we apply this nationally just as in a coop/kibbutz.
In capitalism the benfits of the increment are stolen by the dynamics of the authoritarian (to use Chompsk's word) debt-money system; and in communism it is stolen by th elite who run the state authoritarian system.
Its easy to see the security and prosperity that precludes the
right and left struggle against each other which divides and lets the Lion rule.>

Bravo!:) The real divide is not left and right but up and down along the authoritarian axis. THE REAL DIVIDE IS LION AND NO LION! We may even at times cross between left and right!

The only reason these guys--the bad lion, the foxes--have been able to pit honest people against each other is because of CAMOUFLAGE. But as you have said the other day, we have picked up the scent--before people even see him--and passed the alarm...;)
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#3369 donquijote

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Posted 22 July 2004 - 03:46 PM

Here's more-
"Social Credit is circulating from country to country Our Pilgrims in Ecuador acquired a small truck that holds 70 bundles of leaflets. They are satisfied. They sent 1,000 leaflets to a Bishop in Columbia who asked for 100,000. They will send him 10,000 per week."

<So you are not alone DonQ as a pamphleteer fighting the puppeteer. >

Thanks. I knew somebody else out there saw behind the curtains too.;)

I'm trying to contact the pamphleteers too.

In the meantime, something on SOCIAL CREDIT...

"[Social Credit] is
not socialism, but just the opposite, since it
wants every member of society to be a capitalist,
to benefit from life in society."

What Is Social Credit ?

First, let us define the words "Social Credit":
instead of having money created by
the banks at interest - a banking credit, one
would have money created without interest
by society - a social, or national, credit. It is
not socialism, but just the opposite, since it
wants every member of society to be a capitalist,
to benefit from life in society. It calls
for each and everyone a sufficient share in
the abundant goods of the country, in order
to ensure to each and everyone an honest
livelihood.

Since it is the monetary system that does
not work properly, Social Credit condemns
the present way of creating money
(as a debt), and calls for a way more in conformity
with the common good.

Today, money is created by the banks, for
the profits of the banks, and by getting
governments and industry into debt.

This way of creating and issuing money
gives to the banks a power of control on all
of society.

Social Credit wants society itself to issue
the money, all the money it needs, for re-
quired production to be made and sold.

Social Credit maintains that all new money,
corresponding with a development in
the country's production capacity, belongs to
the public, not to a group of private individuals,
and must be given back to the public,
that is to say, to all citizens.

In freeing man from the submission to money,
Social Credit liberates him, makes
him enter into an era of ecooomic security
and of personal freedom.

In recognizing the common social inheritance,
Social Credit develops the spirit of solidarity
and brotherhood.

Social Credit therefore demands, in the
monetary system:

1. That money be made by the nation, in
relation to the possibilities of production
and the needs of consumption;

2. That all new money be distributed to
the consumers;

A. By a national dividend equally divided
among all men, women, and children of the
country;

B. By a discount granted on sales, calcu-
lated so as to balance the purchasing power
with the prices. This discount, in favor of
the buyer, is compensated to the retailer by
an issue of new credit.


The new money, thus distributed to the
public, without tax increases, will increase
purchases, activate work, and eliminate unem-
ployment.

The dividend to each citizen will make the
condition of big families less harsh, as each
member of the family will bring into the
home a dividend.

Money being sufficient in the consumers'
hands, it will be possible to dispose the prod-
ucts. Then private property will be consoli-
dated, and farmers and industrialists will be
able to meet their obligations and develop
their production, for the greatest good of all
consumers of the country

-by Louis Even
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#3370 donquijote

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Posted 22 July 2004 - 04:01 PM

<Here's more-
"Social Credit is circulating from country to country Our Pilgrims in Ecuador acquired a small truck that holds 70 bundles of leaflets. They are satisfied. They sent 1,000 leaflets to a Bishop in Columbia who asked for 100,000. They will send him 10,000 per week.">

Where you got it from? Thanks!;)
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#3371 donquijote

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Posted 22 July 2004 - 04:14 PM

<When Orwell tries to discredit communism he uses example of two pigs roaring on the farm.
How you would the Orwell pigs set in this well balanced competing coop, expanding the principle of democracy into the economics?
It is question of transformation and implamentation -.>

Easy. Notice the pigs are distinctive species from the other animals. We can make tell them among human beings by the fact that they are NON PRODUCTIVE! They should be EXPELLED from the Coop...;)

One important feature of Left-Libertarian Coops is JOB ROTATION. Few pigs would be "humiliated" that way...:D
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#3372 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 22 July 2004 - 05:58 PM

Donq; @- what to do with the pigs @

or

The income gap between rich and poor in Washington, D.C

The average income of the city's richest residents was almost 31 times higher, at $186,830, than that of the poorest, at $6,126,.

. It is speculated that those in the lowest fifth of the income scale were black, Hispanic and Asian residents. The richest 20 percent, whose incomes rose, included both white and black residents
http://www.reuters.c...storyID=5747051

Poland eventually will reject the whole circus of democracy and will press for nationalist unity.
The circus of democracy, cooperation and competition will stay with these who deserve it the most.
Slavs unite; , we might again buy the Swiss and Scottish foot soldiers for our amusement. Time to wake up.
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#3373 donquijote

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Posted 22 July 2004 - 06:00 PM

Can you believe this? Some little animals refuse to see the camouflage in the lion...;)

Or is it that HE is a lion?:confused:

(I'm publishish this at Google groups)

> > Howdy Bader
> > Exactly. Very sharp observation. And then each system used the other
> > to justify explotation and sacrifice. They both did away with the
> > capacity of people TO VOTE WITH THEIR FEET. Which is perhaps the best
> > form of democracy...
>
> Oh for the good old days when everybody knew Pravda published BS. Now
> it can apparently get away with publishing BS undetected. There is no
> anti-semitism in the world, no racism, no hatred at all - it's all
> just a mirage. Now, about that bridge you wanted to buy...
>

I know this much: ABSOLUTE FREEDOM OF PUBLISHING. Try that in
America... :(

All this is saying is that Zionism benefits from anti-Semitism. Don't
be fooled by camouflage. Racist lion feeds Zionist lion--which is also
racist. ;)

Nothing is what it seems in the jungle... ;)
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#3374 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 22 July 2004 - 06:26 PM

Donq:@ I know this much: ABSOLUTE FREEDOM OF PUBLISHING. Try that in
America... @

whose money then after 'Fahrenheit 9/11' ?

@There is no
> anti-semitism in the world, no racism, no hatred at all - it's all
> just a mirage. Now, about that bridge you wanted to buy...@

Chinese move to more exclusive city quarters than Irish, isn't it?
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#3375 donquijote

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Posted 22 July 2004 - 06:46 PM

Donq:@ I know this much: ABSOLUTE FREEDOM OF PUBLISHING. Try that in
America... @

<whose money then after 'Fahrenheit 9/11' ? >

Good question to get to the fox...;)

WHERE THE MONEY IS COMING FROM?

Sometimes though you got to ask...

WHERE THE MONEY IS GOING TO?:D
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#3376 Bader

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Posted 23 July 2004 - 08:14 AM

Howdy DonQ:

You mentioned Pliny saying that the Pravda Forum had no answer.
I think it is pretty clear how the little animals can produce their own well. And they dont need gold to do it. Having to have gold before anyone can do anything is the same monopoly game as having to have the private banks "money" (figures on paper).
Some claim that the Jews ( I guess that spells Rothschilds) control the paper money and the Vatican controls the gold - which has some meaning to there appearing to be an increase in the exposure of the money system in regards paper attached to the opinion that it is a failure because its not based on gold- suggesting that a tug-o-war between the vatican and Jewish elite still goes on, or is it a puppet show?).

What Louis Even labulated is the same as I gave earier. No lion
controlling through money/debt, no inflation, everyone included as a consumer and inheritor of the previous generations input and no taxes to pay debt.
The issue that arrises is who/how exactly is the producer/controller of the nations money supply. Douglas stipulated that it had to be through an independant credit authority that govt couldnt control directly since that simply would become their cheque book to abuse for their own political future.
Abe Lincoln for example stipulated that govt should create the nations monetary needs which is what many would think of first
but time and experience teaches us to be wiser.

I would put it that the GOLD pliny doesn recognise is the revelation that the peoples own credit can be monetarised by themselves and put to work for them making them free and sovereign- exactly as what should happen on a coop/kibbutz,
not subsidizing some ashkennazi foxes anthoritarianism.

"not ruling out greed..." the present system attracts/ encourages the baser elements of human nature ( like begets like) but in an economic democracy - "it calls for each and everyone a sufficient share in the abundant goods of the country in order to ensure to each and everyone an honest livelihood"
putting and enphasis on "an honest livelihood" the whole social/political environment is much more healthier and isnt a rat-race/jungle. There is no direct restraint on the baser instincts but
since people can vote with their feet, those who have bad social skills (eg greedy) will be buy-passed for those with the better social skills. The greedy will have to form coops of the s ame and suffer from each other (their best school of learning) or be a lonely Ebinezer Scrooge type.
So social environment is a force to be considered besides greed and other traits of the individual. The social environment of the
little animals water well - access for everyone including the skunk,
takes us into the issue of the moral factor (social justice, equal rights, egalitarianism ( meaning everyone inherits a fishingrod
although we arent all equal in proficiency of catching fish) does its not?

You had a heading DonQ- "Bader you got any tips".
I didnt get what you mean.
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#3377 Bader

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Posted 23 July 2004 - 09:27 AM

Howdy Woj:
I appreciate exactly what you have said about Poland and Lepper
bacause the same has happened here and it is the same lion and his devoted followers protecting their access to that part of the lions waterhole with additional benefits. Essentially its power they defend, lets face it if the little animals can find themselves a decent wife who needs the lions prostitutes and their baggage?

"Poland will reject the whole circus of democracy and will press for national unity, the circus of democracy coops and competition will stay with those who deserve it the most."
Lion culture hates all three as well, Poland will have to create a third way (without creating competition with the existing options, or cooperating by national unity and not giving the Poles any say)
Get yourself a truck and some pamphletes...
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#3378 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 23 July 2004 - 11:57 AM

Donq; @WHERE THE MONEY IS COMING FROM?@ or who makes decisions on voting in EU parliament, and Bader; Lepper is leper. . @

Poland since May 1 is EU member. In Poland is multi party system . Polish elected officials participated in election for European seats.. The biggest number of votes received Buzek but somebody or something made decision that Gieremek is Polish candidate for presidential seat.....
Fortunately talk about necessity for Polish patriotism didn
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#3379 donquijote

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Posted 23 July 2004 - 01:35 PM

<"not ruling out greed..." the present system attracts/ encourages the baser elements of human nature ( like begets like) but in an economic democracy - "it calls for each and everyone a sufficient share in the abundant goods of the country in order to ensure to each and everyone an honest livelihood"
putting and enphasis on "an honest livelihood" the whole social/political environment is much more healthier and isnt a rat-race/jungle. There is no direct restraint on the baser instincts but
since people can vote with their feet, those who have bad social skills (eg greedy) will be buy-passed for those with the better social skills. The greedy will have to form coops of the s ame and suffer from each other (their best school of learning) or be a lonely Ebinezer Scrooge type. >

Howdy Bader
Exactly, the greedy will not be ruled out but squezeed out, unable to effect their monopoly. The rat race will be over, and being a rat will be a choice not an obligation...:D


<So social environment is a force to be considered besides greed and other traits of the individual. The social environment of the
little animals water well - access for everyone including the skunk,
takes us into the issue of the moral factor (social justice, equal rights, egalitarianism ( meaning everyone inherits a fishingrod
although we arent all equal in proficiency of catching fish) does its not?>

Now, it remains the question of whether there should be any social cohesion, any culture that binds society together and makes life more pleasurable.

Here is the Poll...:D

Aren't the French kind of funny?:confused:

http://engforum.prav...9604#post949604


<You had a heading DonQ- "Bader you got any tips".
I didnt get what you mean.>

I'll like to get in touch with them. Any tips?
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#3380 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 23 July 2004 - 01:36 PM

Bader; @I would put it that the GOLD pliny doesn
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