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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#3481 Bader

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 10:40 AM

HowdyDonQ:

I am not convinced Nelson is helping the poor, because one of my objections to his ideas, which are typical and very common, typical Green thinking, is that when you put up the price claiming that you make people pay the real cost, you simply exclude the poorer people and rich go no doing what you basically want to stop. Like selling indugences to raise money to build St Peters Basilica with its gold plate etc supposedly the rich honour God.
We are just as deluded today.
checkout:
www.apple.com/trailers/paramount/team_america/large.html

You are right the puppets will not betray the puppeteer, so the Greens are puppets.
Instead of all this talk about doing this and doing that why havent the Greens globally orchastrated a campaign to pressure all govts to do something about making available alternative technology that doesnt use petrolium., nuclear power, or dams etc. Everyone knows it exists but everyone pretends the earth is flat.
All that will happen is that inflation will go up through prices while we continue to use the same means. And we cant expect the people who live in small cities and smaller communities to want anything to do with these ideas when it is only the larger cities that have a problem.
They also need to do a bit of linial thinking about real costing.
They just may find that the industry in the US will close down and the saudi Arabian desert will be covered with factories.
Developments in the developed countries greatly reflect debt/
cost of finance, thus we get small local grocers closing because they are undercut by the bulk chains and this means people need cars not buses to get their groceries. Same with industry, it tends to congregate where the biggest ports etc are located or similar factors of convenience to save transport costs.
The pressure of debt and costs is ever-present yet no one is interested in examining a different money system, same with economics, its is a failure because the principles are directed by the money power to protect their "industry".
The simple fact is the we - our present civilisation, cannot afford to
be responsible/sensible because of the money system and there is no way we can clean up the mess already made for ther same reason and it is doubly impossible to do both.
There is enough poverty now and if we load huge taxes for "real
costs"/ compensation/subsidies etc the cost of living will go up hugely, as will the debt and the servicing costs which will increase taxes further. Many will simply loose their jobs because they cant afford to own and run a car and those who may have
more than one job may loose one because the bus system wont get them there on time Or alternatively it will impact on food, housing and health and social problems later.
Then consider what this will do to retail, then manufacturing, bad debts, crime,etc
The money trap and the technology trap are one and the same
problem- held to ransom by the banksters.
JP Morgan a Rothschild front stopped Teslas discoveries from reaching the world. This is hardcore jungle issue here and trying to divide three by seventeen chasing symptoms isnt going to produce utopia.
If the industrial revolution and the development of banking had of
been based on the principles of the coop these problems wouldnt exist, and the the world that would have resulted we wouldnt recognise today. One important factor not recognised that we have lost control of to debt is time. Time is as essential as water
and the banksters own our time into the future, we can only address the symptoms of their regime using their references, tools and perspectives. The result is double bondage, globally,
because the problems are now extended globally.
Without time, having been taken from us we are as flies caught up in a spiders web- suspended for recycling in their time.
This is not a bad dream while we are out of time-sleeping, this is our realtime living a nightnare we cant just snap out of even if we wake up and many dont want to wake up. Kerry represents that.
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#3482 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 11:41 AM

Why Sudan?
Let
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#3483 donquijote

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 12:05 PM

<I am not convinced Nelson is helping the poor, because one of my objections to his ideas, which are typical and very common, typical Green thinking, is that when you put up the price claiming that you make people pay the real cost, you simply exclude the poorer people and rich go no doing what you basically want to stop. Like selling indugences to raise money to build St Peters Basilica with its gold plate etc supposedly the rich honour God.
We are just as deluded today.>

Howdy Bader
OK, maybe it's not a good idea, but I'm gonna keep playing with it, because the *foxes* want us who propose alternatives to pay our way. Then I would throw the ball back at them...;)

checkout:
www.apple.com/trailers/paramount/team_america/large.html

World Police? Scary.:confused:

<There is enough poverty now and if we load huge taxes for "real
costs"/ compensation/subsidies etc the cost of living will go up hugely, as will the debt and the servicing costs which will increase taxes further. Many will simply loose their jobs because they cant afford to own and run a car and those who may have
more than one job may loose one because the bus system wont get them there on time Or alternatively it will impact on food, housing and health and social problems later.
Then consider what this will do to retail, then manufacturing, bad debts, crime,etc>

Well, remember, in the kind of world we propose, the jungle can't get too bad, or else the people would move into coops, not a bad outcome. In it, PEOPLE LIVE CLOSE TO THEIR JOB. Even bicycles can be a solution.;)

Do you know about this 'New Urbanism Movement'?:cool:

'New Urbanism is an urban design movement that burst onto the scene in the late 1980s and early 1990s. New Urbanists aim to reform all aspects of real estate development. Their work affects regional and local plans. They are involved in new development, urban retrofits, and suburban infill. In all cases, New Urbanist neighborhoods are walkable, and contain a diverse range of housing and jobs. new Urbanists support regional planning for open space, appropriate architecture and planning, and the balanced development of jobs and housing. They believe these strategies are the best way to reduce how long people spend in traffic, to increase the supply of affordable housing, and to rein in urban sprawl. Many other issues, such as historic restoration, safe streets, and green building are also covered in the Charter of the New Urbanism, the movement's seminal document.'

http://www.cnu.org/about/index.cfm

<This is not a bad dream while we are out of time-sleeping, this is our realtime living a nightnare we cant just snap out of even if we wake up and many dont want to wake up. Kerry represents that.>

It reminds me of the story by Monterroso: "And when he woke up, the Dinosaur was still there.":confused:
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#3484 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 01:06 PM

Bader; @There is enough poverty now and if we load huge taxes for "real
costs"/ compensation/subsidies etc the cost of living will go up hugely, as will the debt and the servicing costs which will increase taxes further. Many will simply loose their jobs because they cant afford to own and run a car and those who may have@

Cost of production of the car by worker driving to work on bicycle or who even lives in manufacturing area is lower than cost of worker driving to work with SUV. Worker using SUV has to have salary paying for SUV and petro. Cost of production done by walking class uses SUV as a transportation is higher than cost production of anybody else. People driving cars has to lose competition with people using different transportation media . And this situation is on every products, including the arms.

To lower cost of SUV transportation the government has to own somehow oil resources.
War for oil also has a price which is added to cost of competition. So now government decided to own the world so NWO might dictate; You have to buy our product for our price and selling us your goods also for prices we are offering regardless of your cost , your life conditions etc.

Coops purpose is tohelp to implement this idea .
Coops are event brightest NOW idea.
First and most important ; coops eliminate the leaders.
Will be then nobody to object and stand up against NWO propaganda., so NWO can sleep soundly.

Coops would equally divided to everybody pot the modified corn or rice; nobody might then die from starvation. NWO needs people to work for them and be healthy.
Coops would eradicate cigarettes, alcohol and drugs. People under influence might stop to feel irredeemably and start see running the things as they are. It has to be then eliminated.
Nobody would be paid extra, because he might get enough money to start idea of changing status quo.
Donq asked if he sees US good place for coops decided that Americans are not material to the coops. And he is right. Coops are only designed for NWO slaves so they wouldn
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#3485 donquijote

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 03:19 PM

@There is enough poverty now and if we load huge taxes for "real
costs"/ compensation/subsidies etc the cost of living will go up hugely, as will the debt and the servicing costs which will increase taxes further. Many will simply loose their jobs because they cant afford to own and run a car and those who may have@

<Cost of production of the car by worker driving to work on bicycle or who even lives in manufacturing area is lower than cost of worker driving to work with SUV. Worker using SUV has to have salary paying for SUV and petro. Cost of production done by walking class uses SUV as a transportation is higher than cost production of anybody else. People driving cars has to lose competition with people using different transportation media . And this situation is on every products, including the arms.>

True. Worker with a car uses all those precious resources that must grabbed elsewhere. In other words, the whole world is paying for the worker that must have a car, while he in turn is paying for the oil--and insurance, tires, etc--to the transnationals. Of course, he's a prey as well as predator, even if involuntary. Then whatever threatens that flow of oil must be delt with--by military means if necessary. Politicians--paid by the transnationals--make sure the jungle continues.

Worker without a car though is not good for capitalist economy, but he's better for society. It follows that the capitalist economy is NOT very good for society, ah?;)

<To lower cost of SUV transportation the government has to own somehow oil resources.
War for oil also has a price which is added to cost of competition. So now government decided to own the world so NWO might dictate; You have to buy our product for our price and selling us your goods also for prices we are offering regardless of your cost , your life conditions etc.>

Exactly. Oil wars are another externality that's absorbed by the whole of society just to keep the whole thing going. Then the whole of society is at risk when some decide to stop the thing. It seems to me society is the only loser--twice.:confused:

<Coops purpose is tohelp to implement this idea .
Coops are event brightest NOW idea.
First and most important ; coops eliminate the leaders.
Will be then nobody to object and stand up against NWO propaganda., so NWO can sleep soundly.>

Exactly. They diminish the need for the leader. But they also reject NWO, which is internationalism on the terms of the lion, not of the little animals.

<Coops would equally divided to everybody pot the modified corn or rice; nobody might then die from starvation. NWO needs people to work for them and be healthy.>

NWO needs SCARCITY, so the little animals fight for limited resources. Abundance makes NWO--lion's order--obsolete.

<Coops would eradicate cigarettes, alcohol and drugs. People under influence might stop to feel irredeemably and start see running the things as they are. It has to be then eliminated.>

Why be paranoic? Coops do exist in kibbutz, Mondragon, etc, and there's no such "eliminations."

< Nobody would be paid extra, because he might get enough money to start idea of changing status quo.
Donq asked if he sees US good place for coops decided that Americans are not material to the coops. And he is right. Coops are only designed for NWO slaves so they wouldn-t stand against NWO, wouldn-t think about participation in terrorism,etc.>

Again, coops are ANOTHER WATER WELL, nothing to do with the waterhole the lion now controls. No need for the little animals to go and drink from those polluter waters...;)

< Members of coops would think that present life is what god and world created as best for them. >

So do many kibbutzim think. But they can live anytime and work for the lion if they so miss him.

<Idea of coops is just an idea of happy slaves.>

Happy, yes. Slaves, no. They have OPTIONS. They can VOTE WITH THEIR FEET. Not my idea of slaves.

< It is previous Hitler idea of chemical treatment for slaves to make them happy, useful and peaceful.
Coops remitted this idea of happy slaves again; only instead of treatment of gas is uses indoctrination. >

Under Hitler workers were to made to work 60 hours a week with no unions. We should be working less--less than 40 hours I mean, perhaps 30.

<Only one biggest obstruction and this barrier is growing is nationalism. People stop care for coalition with smiling uncle some and start to build own defense.
Remember Yugoslavia. Slavs Unite!. >

Slavs are sick and tired of mega lions and mega projects. Small is better...;)
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#3486 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 05:20 PM

Donq; @Small is better...@i n electronics

It is not. For example Bulgaria. Two hostages of US coalition forces were taken and short by Al_quida.
In Bulgaria was not complain not call to Al-quida for the mercy. Bulgarian didn
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#3487 donquijote

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 03:02 AM

<Donq; @Small is better...@i n electronics

It is not. For example Bulgaria. Two hostages of US coalition forces were taken and short by Al_quida.
In Bulgaria was not complain not call to Al-quida for the mercy. Bulgarian didn-t know about circumstances of death of their husband and son.
Different situation is in India . People of the village will take revenge on foreigners if their men will die. India has more than billion people. Bulgaria has only about 7mln .
Not enough to jump high up.
I hope that Bulgarian government will not survive. :)>

Small is better as demonstrated by the small groups of Iraqi fighters putting up more resistance than Hussein's army. The lion can beat any other lion but smaller animals doing their own game.

< Nation and ethnicity is everything. Slavs unite. :)
Coops are the leftover of Hitler history; @happy slave @ ideology for foreign labor. >

Hitler was the biggest lion of the 20th century and perhaps of all times. And he didn't even hide it like today. Perhaps that's why he went down so quickly.

Anyway, where is the connection?

<Is any difference in opinion between your Donq idea and Bader?>

Bader and I have similar solutions in mind because it's common sense. If you reject the lion, what can better than the little animals cooperating together to avoid to be eaten. Little animals do it in nature if they don't want to fall prey.

But of course there are many differences and that is good. After all we are proposing DEMOCRACY. Well, not the kind you think...;)
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#3488 Bader

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 10:53 AM

Whats the difference Woj?
Coops and national socialism are poles (no pun intended) apart.
You Woj are the one who advocates nationalism and socialism, where the people are the slav(e)s of the state.
In a coop everyone is a owner/self employed and independant of the state and share ownership in private property-not state
owned. Everyone is part of the overall decisions and elects a
"leaders" whom are accountable to them, this is democracy in a nutshell, and the leaders have abrief to follow that is set by the owners, so they cant become a power unto themselves.
The exact opposite of national socialism, communism, and the NWO which will be global fascism and fascism being the marriage between state power and corporate power.

Coops will not be the opiate of the people to make them happy slaves. They are free, and happy not to be slaves. Slaves are also united but not free.
Slaves unite!

Hitler is the biggest personality of history because of the endless propoganda, but the atrocities behind the Iron Curtain were far greater. The difference is the latter has always been kept out of the western media and the former keeps getting repeated, because it suits the holocaust industry and hides the fact that the Jewish communists slaughtered a greater number than that claimed the Germans did and not proven only parroted over and over, however this no place to bog down in this.
Hitler wasnt the worst in history, if anyone could find any document that shows Hitler directed the holocaust it would be worth a billion dollars ( and the US taxpayer would pay it unwittingly).
Old man Bush could be just AS guilty of crimes against humanity as Hitler. DU is going to go on killing many millions over a decade or more. Madalene Albright said it was worth it for a pack of lies. And communist leaders will still be well in front as far as trophies go.
Checkout the Ukraine website which goes into details on the
mass slaughter of civilians by the Nazi and then by the communists as they drove the Nazi out, and Ukraine was only one of many nations the same happened, and the details goes right down to ethnicity and the worst are well infront of the rest. Little wonder what has happened to the Palestinians and Iraqis. Also little wonder the LIe is now greater and outflanking the truth in what is happening everywhere around the world and throughout the media in general.
The truth about the east and west has been controlled on both sides by the same people who held much power on both sides. And its quite amazing how much the thinking of both east and west are coming together inspite of the huge divide through the cold war and the supposed contrast between capitalism and communism, but when both were financed by the same puppeteer
it is to be expected, and the philosophy behind it all is identifiable (smells= lion, spells = Lie-on). No one else desperately works endlessly to be untouchable.

Husseins army ARE the insurgents. Thats why they were sent home, to live to fight another day.

New Urbanism:
Doesnt matter how much they re-arrange the deckchairs on the Titanic when they wake up in the morning the Dynasaurs will still be there. The debt-money regime over-reaches everything relating to economic-social-political activity, like an invisable govt.
They need to create communities with their own funding system that facilitates socio-economic activity, and then develope inter-activity between the communities, on the same principles and they are exactly those of the coop, because that is what these communties are, not just a single industrial enterprise, a coop society- a democratic society.
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#3489 donquijote

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 12:09 PM

> >> Correct. But the advantage of a train is that some people can avoid
> >> traffic and get a public subsidy while proclaiming they have extra
> >> virtue at the same time. That is a winning combination: you can
> >> bypass traffic and be a better person.
> >
> > Better person? What can be better than a patriotic SUV, flying flags and
> > God bumper stickers? You too can bypass traffic, just brave your way
> > around...
>
> Don, you have it backwards. If you're driving your patriotic,
> penis-compensating SUV complete with oversize flag, "Support Our Troops"
> bumper sticker, red-white-and blue paint, and extra 50gallon tanks of gas,
> you drive over traffic, not around it. When choosing a flag for your SUV,
> it should at the minimum cover your windshield. When hitting people, try
> to get an appropriate mixture of red, white, and blue blood.

"Support Our Troops" means, "We SUVs support them, because of us they are there.";)
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#3490 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 12:11 PM

Donq; @After all we are proposing DEMOCRACY. Well, not the kind you think...@

You are right , we reject your DEMOCRACY.
Rejecting the reality will not give US oil , but you might be given the senior intelligence position. :)
"Where is the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing? They have passed like rain on the mountains, like wind in the meadow. The days have gone down in the west, behind the hills, into shadow. How did it come to this?"--Theoden

"This city was once the jewel of our Kingdom, a place of light, and beauty, and music, and so it shall be once more. Let the armies of Mordor know this, never again will the lands of my people fall into enemy hands. The city of Osgiliath has been reclaimed for Gondor! For Gondor! For Gondor!"--Boromir

"I do not know what strength is left in my blood, but I swear to you, I will not let the White city fall, nor our people fail!"
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#3491 donquijote

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 12:23 PM

<Hitler is the biggest personality of history because of the endless propoganda, but the atrocities behind the Iron Curtain were far greater. The difference is the latter has always been kept out of the western media and the former keeps getting repeated, because it suits the holocaust industry and hides the fact that the Jewish communists slaughtered a greater number than that claimed the Germans did and not proven only parroted over and over, however this no place to bog down in this.
Hitler wasnt the worst in history, if anyone could find any document that shows Hitler directed the holocaust it would be worth a billion dollars ( and the US taxpayer would pay it unwittingly).>

Howdy Bader
Well, perhaps the two best representatives of the lion were Napoleon and Hitler. They didn't even hide it. Nobody was behind them. They led massive campaigns to conquer Europe, and you knew them for what they were.

The new crop of lions though is more foxy in hiding their intentions and act much more out of economics. Better camouflage. Someone is behind them. They are just puppets in the grand scheme of things. It takes scent not sight to pick them up..;)

<New Urbanism:
Doesnt matter how much they re-arrange the deckchairs on the Titanic when they wake up in the morning the Dynasaurs will still be there. The debt-money regime over-reaches everything relating to economic-social-political activity, like an invisable govt.
They need to create communities with their own funding system that facilitates socio-economic activity, and then develope inter-activity between the communities, on the same principles and they are exactly those of the coop, because that is what these communties are, not just a single industrial enterprise, a coop society- a democratic society. >

New Urbanism is no more--and they admit it--than old urbanism. It's a community-centered urbanism vs. General Motors (lion) urbanism...;)
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#3492 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 12:36 PM

Bader; @(smells= lion, spells = Lie-on).@


Hitler wasn
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#3493 donquijote

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 03:44 PM

common sense, no?;)

> The real solution? Make cars safer by moving them over long distances via
> railcars handling them individually on an automated system.

The real solution is to INCREASE THE PRICE OF GAS. Stop subsidized
roads and gas. THEN ALTERNATIVE TRANSPORTATION WILL NATURALLY BECOME A REALITY. And a bonus benefit will be greater security...;)

'We keep being told we are at war and yet no one is sacrificing for
the cause. Everywhere I turn I see Hummers and SUVs with American
flags waving from antennae like banana republic touring cars and
"United We Stand" and "We Support the Troops" on the bumpers.'

June 10

Gas Guzzlers
What will we be driving "Day After Tomorrow"? Why we need higher gas
prices.
by Alan Bisbort

Hooray for higher gas prices. Yes, you heard me correctly. I'm glad
the price of gas is going up. I'm glad that The Day After Tomorrow is
the world's number-one box office hit. The weaknesses of its plot
notwithstanding, the film is the sort of bang-on-the-head most people
need to wake them from their daydream. Will people make the connection
between disastrous impacts of global warming and fossil fuel use? I've
given up trying to figure out what it takes to make people see the
truth, but anything that wakes them from their stupor long enough to
consider a new idea is a good thing. But about those gas prices. I'd
like to see them go even higher. Am I a masochist? No, a realist, a
pragmatist, or call me what you will. I was raised in a household
headed by a self-made American colonel who came of age in the Great
Depression and understood, to the very marrow in his bones, the adage,
"waste not want not."

Like father, like son. My father was a lifelong Republican of the old
and improved stripe, and there were many things on which we found
common ground, including fiscal responsibility, conserving and
protecting our natural resources, honoring promises, paying back debts
promptly (actually, not incurring debts if possible), doing an honest
day's work in exchange for an honest day's pay. My father lived to be
92. Throughout his long and active life, he was appalled by the waste
of Americans. The root of Americans' blissful ignorance, my father (an
engineer) was certain, was its cheap gas. Nowhere else in the world
was it so cheap, so taken for granted. He didn't make too many friends
sharing this thought with colleagues.

By what birthright do Americans think it is fitting and proper that we
squander the world's finite supply of fossil fuels? What delusion
about our superiority do we have that allows us to consume 75 percent
[I think it's 25%] of the world's natural resources while comprising 5
percent of the world's population? Looked at from a purely religious
perspective -- one that Americans insist they abide by -- we are all
equal in the eyes of God. But we act as if we really believe what
Orwell said in Animal Farm , "Some animals are more equal than
others."

Taking it further, I'd like the price of gas go even higher, with the
currently proposed 50-cent-per-gallon tax hike to be used to
underwrite the start-up costs of a viable long-term national energy
policy that will tap into alternative fuels and reusable energy
sources. Advocating for this hike, the University of Maryland's Robert
Park noted, "We need conservation. High gas prices are already pushing
SUV sales down, but it was OPEC that pushed the price up. If we plan
to declare war on every country led by a bad guy, we'll need tax
revenue. We could also think about making CAFE [corporate average fuel
economy] standards apply to all passenger cars, even if they're SUVs
and weigh as much as cement trucks. As the price of gas goes up, the
air gets cleaner, people return to the inner cities, traffic is
reduced, less time is wasted commuting."

The price of gas should also be gauged at the pump to reward those who
drive more fuel-efficient cars, so that someone who drives, say, a
Toyota Echo would pay 2.50 for the same gallon of gas that would cost
an SUV driver $4, and, conversely, the driver of a hybrid car $2.
Hummer drivers would, therefore, pay the highest price for the dubious
status these cars apparently provide. (Gas prices for transit trucks,
buses, mass transit, and other vehicles performing vital roles, would
not be affected by these price hikes). This isn't punishment. It's
called an incentive system. And it's about time.

During World War II, Americans pitched in by carpooling, planting
victory gardens and rationing gas. Signs were posted everywhere that
read, "Is This Trip Necessary?" and "When You Ride Alone You Ride With
Hitler." Few people got on their high horses about an individual's
inalienable right to be a glutton, and those who did were quickly
shouted down for the jackasses they were. In short, people got the
message, and cooperated. Seldom, in fact, has there been a more
unified American populace.

So what's the difference today? We keep being told we are at war and
yet no one is sacrificing for the cause. Everywhere I turn I see
Hummers and SUVs with American flags waving from antennae like banana
republic touring cars and "United We Stand" and "We Support the
Troops" on the bumpers.

Oh, but this war in Iraq is not about oil, is it? In case you missed
it, the Muzhir al-Dulaymi, spokesman for the League for the Defence of
Iraqi Peoples' Rights has said that the United States is
systematically liberating the Iraqi people from their oil.

"A daylight robbery is going on in Iraq. I have first hand information
from sources in al-Bakr port in southern Iraq, and in the Turkish port
of Jihan, confirming that three million oil barrels are being taken
out of Iraq on a daily basis," Dulaymi said, adding that the Bush
administration, and its oil company supporters, are benefiting from
the process.

http://thomasmc.com/0610ab.htm
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#3494 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 05:25 PM

Donq; @During World War II, Americans pitched in by carpooling, planting
victory gardens and rationing gas. Signs were posted everywhere that
read, "Is This Trip Necessary?" and "When You Ride Alone You Ride With
Hitler. So what's the difference today? @

:) Insurances. Tort Lawyers and all horde Clinton friends
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#3495 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 05:48 PM

464 people lost life in resulted of anti thief security in Paraguay supermarket.
. Did anybody see the name this company. ?.
Can you image if such situation took place in Belarusian and Belarusian vendor would be involved?
. In Kursk was 100 people and US claimed Putin responsibility.... . Now I don
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#3496 donquijote

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Posted 04 August 2004 - 12:39 AM

> >Anyone in this groups wants a dinosaur?
>
> Like a 19th century train? That would be you.

No, like 19th Century Capitalism... ;)

Remember Ross Perot, the $.50 gas tax? The poor rich man. The Press
almost accused him of communist... :(

"Now, see, we practice 19th century capitalism."

PEROT: Defense industries are going to have to convert to civilian
industries. Many of them are. And the sooner they start, the sooner
they'll finish. And there will be a significant transition. And it's
very important that we not continue to let our industrial base
deteriorate. We had someone who I'm sure regrets said it in the
president's staff said he didn't care whether we made potato chips or
computer chips. Well, anybody that thinks about it cares a great deal.
Number one, you make more making computer chips than potato chips;
and, number 2, 19 out of 20 computer chips that we have in this
country now come from Japan. We've given away whole industries. So as
we phase these industries over, there's a whole of intellectual talent
in these industries. A lot of these people in industries can be
converted to the industries of tomorrow, and that's where the
high-paying jobs are. We need to have a very carefully thought through
phase-over. Now, see, we practice 19th century capitalism. The rest of
the world practices 21st century capitalism. I can't handle that in a
minute, but I hope we can get back into it later. In the rest of the
world, the countries and the businesses would be working together to
make this transition in an intelligent way.

http://www.pbs.org/n...s/1stprez2.html
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#3497 donquijote

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Posted 04 August 2004 - 01:33 AM

<If you looking one to blame look around yourself, insurances. This is area which push US down much more than oil.
If you want free America, illegalize insurance companies. :)>

All these corporations--oil, insurance, military, etc--are part of the jungle, but by far the most dangerous is the HUNGRY DINOSAUR. Its appetite for oil causes ENVIRONMENTAL DESTRUCTION and WAR like no other. If the lion is the political-military, the dinosaur is the economics of it, the obsolete industries and technologies that are kept artificially alive. This dinosaur really has no use, and I find it particularly repugnant to die over it.:confused:

But since all these predator are working together, the only solution is to get rid of the jungle...:)
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#3498 Bader

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Posted 04 August 2004 - 10:34 AM

in the grand scheme of things.
I agree DonQ. iIs easy to blame a leader or a nation for what
they are involved in but may not have control, their hands arent the hidden hand. Perhaps we acn only say it was on their watch in which it happened.
Thus I have to disagree with a previous comment that Napoleon and Hitler were free of this-" nobody was behind them".
Take Sharon for example, today doing the opposite to what he was elected on. Clearly he is not in control, anymore than King George.
Similarly no ethnic, national or religious label can be definitive
regards the origin of the power and the game plan, but they can
be willing puppets, holding out for certain promises that may or may not materialise. Clearly there is a global enity in the making
and the perspectives/options are plural and participants will be looking towards what they perceive will be the outcome and they will not be the same, and some will become expendable.

Not wanting to acknowledge the ugly side, the crimes against humanity in the Soviet Union, is the same as the Americans not wanting to admit to what they are doing in Iraqi etc.
The fact is all the bigger nations have been pawns- Germany, Britain, France, Russia, USA and others, even Israel, sometimes at great cost to them. The majority of their citizen dont want to acknowledge the dark-side.

anti-SUVism:
perhaps a symbolic jesture regarding the folly of how we live (as
puppets) but lets face it if we succeeded in baning them the next morning the dynasaurs will still be outside the door demanding green stuff.
I am skeptical that even global warming is contrived and such things as the sudden tremendous melting of ice in the Greenland area, about 2 metres insince may last year. Like Aids and Sars
and anthrax it is all part of the man-made Terror show that will demand a global govt to "restore" order and peace.
If you can bounce concentrated energy of the ionishere to cause
nuclear-like explosions on the earth, why cant one using the same technology bombard icepacks etc.
Also why would countries like Iran and Nth Korea want to have nuclear weapons that can be detected by satelites when they can develop the Haarp technology which has no fall-out allowing one to occupy conquered territory because there is no radiation.

If the US was a democracy, the public could force their reps to pass a law outlawing the manufacture and importing of petrolium using vehicles. This would force the industry to do the decent thing and make them run on water or alcohol which everyone could produce themselves. Think of the great reduction in prices
in just about everything because of the reduced costs and the competition would automatically force all trading nations to do likewise. People would rather take it out on the SUVs and try
and ban them.
I never took much notice of Perot, because third parties dont go anywhere, in dumo-cricies, but I thought he was rather libertarian. And the libertarian answer to the global demise of the
environment and social demand is to put all but the super-rich in quarantine so only the rich carry on greatly reducing the rate of
which we arrive at the crisis point.
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#3499 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 04 August 2004 - 01:04 PM

@Bush regime sinks lower by the day @Timothy Bancroft-Hinchey

@I never took much notice of Perot, because third parties dont go anywhere, in dumo-cricies,@- Bader,

anti SUV Donq (anti SUV means , anti-Bush and it means Kerry
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#3500 donquijote

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 01:56 AM

<I never took much notice of Perot, because third parties dont go anywhere, in dumo-cricies, but I thought he was rather libertarian. And the libertarian answer to the global demise of the
environment and social demand is to put all but the super-rich in quarantine so only the rich carry on greatly reducing the rate of
which we arrive at the crisis point. >

Hi Bader
Well, Perot had something you very much need to practice "democracy" in America: Big Bucks. There was no puppeteer and no invisible hand behind him--I'd imagine--for he financed himself. That gave him a lot of freedom to say things, and some of these things sounded right-libertarian. But right-libertarians come in two kinds according to this article. My idea is that we can coexist with the "True Libertarians."

Notice the reference to the Well...;)


LIBERTARIANISM AND FREEDOM

In THE REVOLUTIONARY RIGHT I mentioned briefly that we, as
Libertarians, hold that the right to be let alone, free from
governmental meddling, is the most important right of all, as it
implies all others. It is, in essence, the right to do what one
wishes, EXCEPT INJURE SOMEONE ELSE.
I noted that no freedom is absolute, and now add the central
presumption: ASSUMING that one chooses to remain a part of any
society. I submit as self-evident that every freedom is like a
coin with two faces: a RIGHT as the "heads", and a concomitant
RESPONSIBILITY as the "tails". A right, with no responsibility
to exercise it properly, is inconceivable to a TRUE Libertarian.
A second point to introduce here: all Libertarians appear to
be "free enterprise" oriented--but many seem to advocate unbri-
dled freedom as a panacea for our economic and social problems.
Well, here I begin to respectfully but emphatically disagree.
The key word is "unbridled", which implies ABSOLUTE freedom
to make a profit, with no moral obligations whatsoever. Thus I
submit that these "Libertarians" create a bad image--i.e., that
our movement is dedicated merely to making money, and has no
philosophical basis other than the profit motive. I submit that
we must temper our economic Libertarianism with a degree of
social responsibility.
Let me give you an example. Mr. Jay Hanson has filed two
scholarly articles on alt.politics.economics on the subjects, THE
FATAL FREEDOM and KNOW THYSELF. To quickly summarize the theme
to which Mr. Hanson devotes in-depth treatment, he cites Hobbes
and Locke, among others, for their writings on the concept of
"the Commons"--that is, the gifts of nature which are common
property IN EQUAL SHARES to each and every member of any social
group.
These Commons are to be protected from abuse by any member
of a society to preclude their exhaustion by damaging exploita-
tion. Destruction of the Commons, in fact, is an injury to the
common rights of all other persons. In a nutshell, we're talking
about conservation--a/k/a environmental protection--to preserve
as best we can the quality of life for ourselves and our poster-
ity.
The oldest book in the world refers to the preservation of
the Commons as a basic part of the "social contract". The book
is from China, and is called I CHING (pronounced roughly "yee
jing"), which is the basis of Taoism (pronounced roughly
"dowism"), Confucianism, and plays some role in Zen Buddhism.
The title means, "The Book of Changes", and the book consists of
64 symbolic six-line figures called hexagrams, each one bearing a
symbolic title, and given a spiritual meaning which was origi-
nally in poetic form.
Number 48 is called "The Well," and refers to the tradition-
al well--central to every town in ancient China--which was the
source of water essential to sustain the quality of life for
EVERYONE. The theme of the relevant poem is to PRESERVE THE
WELL--the town might change, but the well must remain the same.
Forgive me for interpolating a very crude and even vulgar inter-
pretation--but I can think of no "polite" version that would make
the point as well. One meaning of this hexagram might be quite
coarsely rendered: "if you're going to live in the town, don't
shit in the well."
Back from Chinese philosophy to modern-day Libertarianism!
To many so-called Libertarians, the idea of environmental pro-
tection is high on their "hit" list. Get the government off our
backs, say they--let people do what they want. I submit that
these so-called Libertarians are nothing more than short-sighted
opportunists, who see a chance to make a buck by exhausting
irreplaceable natural resources as one of their primary rights.
I say they are wrong.
Here's one reason why. A couple of years ago a narrow dirt
road near my home was widened and paved. In order to widen it to
let a few cars drive a little faster and easier, crews cut down a
fairly large tree because its spreading roots lay where the all-
important concrete had to be poured.
It took nature about 100 years to grow that tree, and it
took those men with power saws about 100 minutes to destroy it
forever.
Do I feel sentimental about a tree? Not in the sense of the
familiar poem. But consider for a moment the similar destruction
of the Amazon rain forest--or the arguments to cut down most of
the Sequoias in California to make money on their lumber.
There are, essentially, two rights in conflict in the
dispute: the right of "free enterprise" touted as all-important
by so-called Libertarians, and the right of future generations to
be born into a sane and healthy environment, as we were early in
this century.
True Libertarians must be willing to accept the "tails" of
responsibility of providing for our posterity over the "heads" of
a quick profit on the coin of commercialism. I say a coin with
two "heads" for freedom is counterfeit.

http://www.mega.nu:8...kbros/pg10.html
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