Jump to content

Theme© by Fisana
 

Photo

What would it take for Russia to be #1?


  • Please log in to reply
7545 replies to this topic

#3821 woj1@cyberonic.

woj1@cyberonic.

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 10667 posts

Posted 08 September 2004 - 12:33 PM

Aslanbek Aslakhanov, President Putin's adviser on the North Caucasus who for three days was in Beslan maintaining telephone contact with the hostage takers, said on 6 September that during the siege the militants had satellite-telephone communications with people abroad and received their instructions from there,.
Aslakhanov, a Chechen whose presence for the talks was demanded by the hostage takers, said: "They weren't Chechens. When I spoke Chechen, they said: 'We don't understand. Talk Russian.' So I did. But they did have a Caucasian accent." Aslakhanov added that the hostage takers were very well trained and had learned lessons from the hostage taking at the Dubrovka Theater in Moscow in October 2002: They came to Beslan with gas masks and two dogs, and the first thing they did was break windows to prevent the use of sleeping gas.
http://www.rferl.org...sline/1-rus.asp
  • 0

#3822 woj1@cyberonic.

woj1@cyberonic.

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 10667 posts

Posted 08 September 2004 - 12:38 PM

Security is everything; therefore I am supporter the centralized socialism but with permission for private ownership of not strategy industries.
Peaceful capitalism doesn
  • 0

#3823 Bader

Bader

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1757 posts

Posted 08 September 2004 - 07:45 PM

Just put a swastika tatoo on your forehead Woj and National
Socialism is all yours.
This can be the sign of united Slavs, scatter yourselves abroad and get every photo shot in the media you can, even sleep in the
middle of crossroads, travel everywhere by bike so you are going slower and in the open so people can see your brand (DonQ will support that) and people will start to think its the new wave of the future. By sprading yourselves thin the terrorists will knock down everyone elses structure and then you can take over
and rebuild from anarchy. The rise of the phaenyx!
The swastika can represent four lightning bolts (power from the
four points of the compass) coming together at the centre (of power).
Crime Woj is capitalising (capitalism) on an advantage over someone/people. Capitalism exists everywhere.
Checkout the crimes against humanity in the Soviet Union and China in peace times- politcal capitalism.
Better a villa than a gulag.

For Robert Ruppert's speach last week at the Commonwealth Club:

www.fromthewilderness.com/PDF/commonwealth.pdf

He claims he can implicate Chenney in Sept 11.
Also gives the alternative view on oil resourses of the world to
Joe Vialls I posted recently, makes an interesting controversy
alondside global warming etc.
  • 0

#3824 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 09 September 2004 - 01:06 AM

> >Sorry Arni, u made a fool of yself, now - when u crapped about
> >supporting Bush - or did u pay yr dues - and when u decided to run for
> >governor of CAl. You lost yr identity as a celluloid hero, and now yr
> >a drag.
> >Clean up yr act b4 its too l8 and stop bshitting yourself and yr
> >moviefans.
> >Governing is a difficult process I admit, not easy for any1
> >how much more 4 terminator, isnt it Mr. know-it-all Helmut Wabnig?
> >Watchdog of Austrian N.G., it leaves me wondering, r u being paid by
> >some body loyal to U.S. fags or Republicans?
> >Keep your mind focused on realities and maintain yr identy as a true
> >Austrian.
>
> What keeps a nation together?
>
> The best system is and will always be the monarchy:
> Kings and Queens are born into their "office", dont have to advertize,
> which is done by the cohorts of courtiers on the state's expenses,
> by continuous royal propaganda draining into people's brains,
> regardless if the Queen is an old greedy witch, or the King
> isn't able to deliver a 5 minutes free speech.
>
> Poor Arnie has to sell himself per continuous charisma spending,
> impossible to have that activity ongoing forever wihout occasionally
> talking nationalistic blahblah.
>
> I remember a TV news flash from Irak, some Muslim priest speaking:
> "We are ready to take over the governement".
>
> Heya!
> Nothing more than a Koran booklet in his pocket worth one dollar
> qualifies him for regency!
> Hey, we can do that also!
>
> I announce the WORLD REGENCY COMPANY "Rc&Wabi":
>
> RC & Wabi
> Start capital One Dollar!
> We are ready to take over the WORLD!!!!
>
> w.

Well, I see your point which goes something like this: The King of the Jungle (Monarchy) is better than the stupid lion hiring the foxes (the Republic) to do some campaign for him in exchange for the scraps. But I wonder, why not liberate the sheep and let them go wild? They can wait for the predators to go to sleep... ;)
  • 0

#3825 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 09 September 2004 - 02:23 AM

And just the latest game, the numbers game. They say 2+2=5. George Orwell would have said "2+2=4"...;)

"Take the new Iraq numbers. If, as Gen. John Abizaid, the head of the U.S. Central Command, has said, the total insurgent strength in Iraq is now only 5,000, and if Rumsfeld's high-end number is correct and 2,500 of the enemy were killed in August, then just one more month and the enemy will all be dead and we can go home. Right?"

The numbers game: Another Iraq distraction

By Joseph L. Galloway

WASHINGTON - The war in Iraq, which the Bush administration believed would end more than a year ago, reached a somber and costly milestone this week when the number of Americans killed there passed the 1,000 mark and the number of wounded neared 7,000. Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld warned that the level of violence is increasing, not decreasing.

That the adventure in Iraq amounts to a blank check on the national treasury and an unending drain on the lives of our soldiers and Marines is no longer in question.

A thousand of our nation's finest troops are dead. Seven thousand more are wounded, half of them seriously enough they were not returned to combat, and many of those with smashed or amputated limbs from the blasts of homemade bombs and mines. An operation that its advocates and planners predicted would be over in six months and paid for with Iraq's oil revenues drags on with no end in sight, costing the American taxpayer more than $100 billion a year.

Rumsfeld and Joint Chiefs chairman Gen. Richard Myers said the ``recent spike'' in American casualties reflects an enemy that's becoming much more sophisticated and adaptive in their attacks.

Painting Iraq as a critical part of America's global war on terror, Rumsfeld made it clear that war should and would continue for as long as it takes. He said the war didn't begin on Sept. 11, 2001, or when the United States invaded Iraq last year, but dated back to the Beirut Marine barracks bombing in 1982.

Rumsfeld said the thousand American dead in Iraq are only part of a toll that numbers in the thousands, or tens of thousands, in two decades. The fight must go on despite the sacrifice of all those lives, he added.

Then the defense secretary, perhaps hoping to soften the impact of all those dead Americans, gave a very rare body count estimate of between 1,500 and 2,500 enemy killed in Iraq last month. By offering a body count for August, Rumsfeld violated the unwritten rule of every administration and a generation of military leaders to avoid giving such counts.

In Vietnam, the body count became notorious as the only way to measure and reward success in an unending guerrilla war. The pressure for ever-higher counts of enemy killed, in turn, corrupted junior commanders in the field who routinely inflated or simply made up body counts that would make their superiors happy.

An earlier defense secretary, Robert S. McNamara, was a data addict. The chief numbers cruncher, who knew the cost of everything and the worth of nothing, was himself captured by the body counts. At last he had something quantifiable out of Vietnam. But McNamara forgot that old saw: Figures don't lie, but liars can figure. And a newer computer-era saw: GIGO - garbage in, garbage out.

Take the new Iraq numbers. If, as Gen. John Abizaid, the head of the U.S. Central Command, has said, the total insurgent strength in Iraq is now only 5,000, and if Rumsfeld's high-end number is correct and 2,500 of the enemy were killed in August, then just one more month and the enemy will all be dead and we can go home. Right?

Would that it were so. When you fight in urban terrain, in the streets and alleyways of cities teeming with people, the killing you do today breeds new enemies tomorrow. Galloway's rule of thumb is that for every enemy you kill in a guerrilla war, you create two new ones.

Worse, machine guns and tank guns and Bradley chain guns and Air Force and Marine bombs inevitably kill the innocent as well as the guilty.

The ordnance destroys homes and automobiles and the pitiful possessions of the dispossessed, and it creates even more recruits to the war against the Americans. You blow up my house and kill my mother, and I will soon be waiting on a rooftop with an AK-47 and an RPG launcher and hatred in my heart for all Americans.

This is why the main emphasis in counter-insurgency warfare is, or should be, on the political side of political-military operations. This is why there can be no purely military solution in Iraq. This is why, until and unless some political solution is found, Americans and their allies will continue to be maimed and killed in Iraq on a daily basis.
  • 0

#3826 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 09 September 2004 - 03:51 AM

Are you for Smarter Bombs or Smarter Kids? Poll...

http://engforum.prav...?threadid=95911

Let the photos flash before your eyes and ask yourself: "Am I for smarter bombs or smarter kids?"

http://www.retrovsmetro.org/

Understanding the uncivil war

The Uncivil War affects every American, whether raising kids on an hourly wage with no health insurance, or dodging bullets on the streets of Baghdad, or ingesting dirty air and water, or wondering if our votes will count in the coming election. This conflict is as old as the 13 Colonies and as new as Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. Until now, the two sides have never been precisely defined --- or named. We call them Retro and Metro America. On this website you can learn about these two Americas and how the escalating war between them affects each of our lives. You also can order the groundbreaking bestseller: The Great Divide: Retro vs. Metro America.

***

And you could win an environmentally-friendly, anti-war machine Toyota Prius.

http://committed.to/justiceforpeace
  • 0

#3827 Pliny

Pliny

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3587 posts

Posted 09 September 2004 - 05:39 AM

Originally posted by Bader
I see you havent changed your earlier view of SC, although I gave you more than one website to familiarise yourself with it.
You claim SC:
puts money creation in the hands of a few
it most certainly must be a very expensive service
is outside the market
would be inflationary.

You have summarised the existing system, which SC has exposed like no one else has AND provided an alternative in more detail than anyone else has and which reverses the money-powers
dynamics so that it serves society instead of making society the servant of money-power.
If it was the same as the existing system, it would have made a fool of itself instead of becoming a very popular new idea. Those every things you accuse SC of doing are what it took acception to
about the debt money system. There were much smarter people than us who in the thirties would have torn C.H. Douglas to bits
if what you said was true.
Can you justify these four claims?

"if seperate from govt it may have a chance to be fair"
SC made a big issue out of seperating the money-supply function from govt for exactly the same reasons you would. Clearly you have little understanding of what you are talking about (SC).



It is clear you are enamored with social credit much as the Marxist is enamored with his flavor of communism.

puts money creation in the hands of a few


Under SC will each bank create it's own currency or is there a central authority that prints a national currency? If there is a central authority, who decides the value of goods and services, i.e. the GNP of the nation. It sounds to me that under SC there would have to be wage and price controls in order to protect against over-inflated prices for goods and services which would occur in order to earn larger dividends. If wage and price controls are not necessary what prevents me from saying my service is not worth $10/hr but $20/hr. No one will really argue because, if they do the same thing, inflate their prices, the yearly dividend means more cash in their pocket. The honest will be the ones that are cheated. Notice I said cash not "wealth". Currency is not wealth, as you know, especially today. Currency is one of the tools central banks use to control inflation.

If I assume too much regarding the use of wage and price controls under a SC plan then let's look at the system without those controls.
You say these 4 points describe the current system. There must be a central authority in SC to determine from GNP the amount of currency and the amount of a national dividend. They may not necessarily print the currency or make the "electronic" entries but they are charged with evaluting and determining the nations wealth and thus the amount of currency in circulation. It is a service but it does not contribute to the GNP. Government does not contribute to GNP either unless they are involved in the market place. Something I don't think SC is supposed to do, I may be wrong on that. So how is the value of service determined for the people in government and those working to establish the value of the GNP? They certainly aren't going to settle for charity.
If the "people" are going to determine their wage for them you can bet they will form a union to demand more. The persons evaluating the GNP will probably set their own wage. They probably will not calculate things right unless they get a "decent" salary and they will try and restrict the amount of people who understand anything about the calculation of GNP.

I think that without wage and price controls I have demonstrated inflation would be, with SC, perhaps not as severe as now, but extant, The cost is a regulated economy, socialistic in nature, that can be manipulated. The cost of the service to evaluate the GNP would be a ransom worth millions just as the ownership of a central bank is worth billions today.

The economy has only changed hands but is still not in the hands of the citizenry. I do not see how it can be considered to be in the hands of the people.

The US, apparently, has democracy, too.

The fact that the Gold Standard was a fraudulent standard was demonstrated in twenty four hours"

This little incident you cite is a condemnation of the "fractional reserve system" not the Gold Standard. If enough gold had existed on deposit the banks would not panic at the thought of a bank run. As a matter of fact if the fractional reserve system did not exist the war may never have occurred - that and debt financing made war an option for government.

The physical stocks of gold in the world couldnt match the volumn of money value. How are people going to get gold in the first place even if there was enough?

If someone has to ask these questions about using a gold standard they clearly do not understand it.

I admit I am no scholar regarding Social Credit but there are still some old Aberhart dollars around from the old Alberta Social Credit government of the mid-thirties and early forties. Everyone got dividends.

Pooling wealth and dividing it equally is a socialist scheme no matter which way you look at it.

There are a lot of people in Canada who think they have "free" healthcare too!
  • 0

#3828 woj1@cyberonic.

woj1@cyberonic.

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 10667 posts

Posted 09 September 2004 - 11:53 AM

Originally posted by donquijote
> >Sorry Arni, u made a fool of yself, now - when u crapped about
> >supporting Bush -



One ignores the fact that majority of Americans don
  • 0

#3829 woj1@cyberonic.

woj1@cyberonic.

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 10667 posts

Posted 09 September 2004 - 11:58 AM

Originally posted by Bader
Just put a swastika tatoo on your forehead Woj and National
Socialism is all yours.
This can be the sign of united Slavs, scatter yourselves abroad and get every photo shot in the media you can, even sleep in the
middle of crossroads, travel everywhere by bike so you are going slower and in the open so people can see your brand and people will start to think its the new wave of the future. .



People don
  • 0

#3830 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 09 September 2004 - 12:02 PM

Originally posted by Bader
Just put a swastika tatoo on your forehead Woj and National
Socialism is all yours.
This can be the sign of united Slavs, scatter yourselves abroad and get every photo shot in the media you can, even sleep in the
middle of crossroads, travel everywhere by bike so you are going slower and in the open so people can see your brand (DonQ will support that) and people will start to think its the new wave of the future. By sprading yourselves thin the terrorists will knock down everyone elses structure and then you can take over
and rebuild from anarchy. The rise of the phaenyx!
The swastika can represent four lightning bolts (power from the
four points of the compass) coming together at the centre (of power).
Crime Woj is capitalising (capitalism) on an advantage over someone/people. Capitalism exists everywhere.
Checkout the crimes against humanity in the Soviet Union and China in peace times- politcal capitalism.
Better a villa than a gulag.

For Robert Ruppert's speach last week at the Commonwealth Club:

www.fromthewilderness.com/PDF/commonwealth.pdf

He claims he can implicate Chenney in Sept 11.
Also gives the alternative view on oil resourses of the world to
Joe Vialls I posted recently, makes an interesting controversy
alondside global warming etc.



Interesting stuff, Bader, from your source...

AFGHAN OPIUM PRODUCTION DOUBLES
Ever wonder why the markets are doing so well? As FTW has documented for years, with almost $600 billion in drug money being laundered through Wall Street and US banks, the markets should be improving. According to CNN, opium production in Afghanistan is 36 times higher than at the end of Taliban rule. Not every US policy overseas is a failure. Hamid Karzai controls a few square blocks of Kabul. But CIA-controlled warlords control the real estate that really matters.

Would you favor legalizing, liberalizing drugs? I do...;)
  • 0

#3831 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 09 September 2004 - 12:05 PM

<What is wrong with national socialism?>

Ask the more than 30 million Slavs that died from it.

You thought I was gonna say the Jews, ah?;)
  • 0

#3832 woj1@cyberonic.

woj1@cyberonic.

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 10667 posts

Posted 09 September 2004 - 12:10 PM

Originally posted by Pliny
It is clear you are enamored with social credit much as the Marxist is enamored with his flavor of communism.



Dogma is base for religion; when it say that Jesus is son of the God and God and Holly spirit. Jesus was with God when the world was created says the Gospel of John. The Holy Spirit is one of three persons in Trinity . All three divine persons as distinct yet equally God. Baptize converts in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holly Spirit 9Matthew 28:19)
And everything is fine , because religion is not science.

When dogma applies to economy and changes economy in Bible it is funny.
Critics of Bader Social credit on Marx -@puts money creation in the hands of a few@-
is not damaging the Bader
  • 0

#3833 woj1@cyberonic.

woj1@cyberonic.

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 10667 posts

Posted 09 September 2004 - 01:48 PM

Originally posted by donquijote
<What is wrong with national socialism?>

Ask the more than 30 million Slavs that died from it.

You thought I was gonna say the Jews, ah?;)




Slavs died because Neville Chamberlain, George V, Edward VIII and other Brits supported Hitler or as Churchill fought war against Hitler and Slavs.

Hitler on March 7 set Germany in Nadrenia against Versal Peace agreement. - Britts nothing

Hitler on February 12 1938 ordered Germany Austria Union (anschluss ). Britts nothing

In April 1938 Hitler requested Autonomy of Sudetenland.
How can be that such small country could destroy international balance ? Chamberlain about Czechoslovakia

Was it the really true country? Horace Wilson, the Chamberlain adviser about Czechoslovakia .

In 1938 premier Chamberlain created in Russia section V, testing possibility to attack Russia -
Chamberlain writes to his sister- Russians try us to involve in war with Germany---

In September 1938 Chamberlain says- We should not make threat to Herr Hitler, that if he attack Czechoslovakia we will start war. (from Boguslaw Woloszanski)

And situation doesn
  • 0

#3834 Pliny

Pliny

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3587 posts

Posted 09 September 2004 - 04:38 PM

WoJ:

The great secret is you mistake western government for "Capitalism".

It is capitalists I blame for our socio-economic problems. Socialism, in any form, would disappear if capitalists hadn't wrested control of governments, legalized their thievery and bastardized finance and economics, let alone justice.

Socialists don't seem to be able to extract government from the economy to create a capitalistic system. When it can be done then I will blame capitalism for our problems.
But even then I will prefer a more naturopathic cure for it's ills than the straight jacket of governmental control to which it becomes a political prisoner.

Utopia is actually reserved for heaven. so you will always be able to find something to complain about her.

It is doubtful, in my mind, if Utopia is achievable or even a desirable state.
  • 0

#3835 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 09 September 2004 - 07:08 PM

Originally posted by Pliny
WoJ:

The great secret is you mistake western government for "Capitalism".

It is capitalists I blame for our socio-economic problems. Socialism, in any form, would disappear if capitalists hadn't wrested control of governments, legalized their thievery and bastardized finance and economics, let alone justice.

Socialists don't seem to be able to extract government from the economy to create a capitalistic system. When it can be done then I will blame capitalism for our problems.
But even then I will prefer a more naturopathic cure for it's ills than the straight jacket of governmental control to which it becomes a political prisoner.

Utopia is actually reserved for heaven. so you will always be able to find something to complain about her.

It is doubtful, in my mind, if Utopia is achievable or even a desirable state.



Howdy Pliny
Utopia may exist, but it will mean different things to different people. That's why is best to have choices from kibbutz to libertarian enterprises. How about that? Woulk you accept COMPETITION?;)
  • 0

#3836 Bader

Bader

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1757 posts

Posted 10 September 2004 - 01:03 AM

Howdy Pliny:

For the record you raised Social Credit not me and gave it a description of its adversary. I am fully entitled to respond and this is no grounds to take the enamored route.
You had the option of a free standing argument for your proposal
without using SC erroniously to make a point.

I will answer your questions later when I have more time, im on my lunch break.

If Albertans got dividends, name one capitalist or communist govt that has ever given the public voting power to their feet?
And you suggest SC is basically socialist.
It would be easier if your could step outside the square of the two-worlds of capitalist and socialist both the offspring of the international banksters. They created the dialectic materialism
to divide and rule and most people are conditioned to it so they
are always just shifting around inside the same square. Arent the left and right govts in the west only ever just continually re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic?
By the time Bush and his corporate wars and the free market
stripping of resources like we had described in Brazil have finished the wast majority of the world will be screaming for a world govt as intended and the Libertarians will have been pawns in the game just like the socialists.
Top socialists apposed and feared Social Credit the same as the
capitalists because it would in the words of a British socialist leader of what the outcome would be, which would put power in the hands of the people, blowing their power game.

The people will determine what govt will be doing after they get the power to rule and that will only happen when they re-capture
their sovereign right to create their own money system.
I wouldnt say: We will have democracy and we will have a small govt. Thats as phoney as a 4 dollar bill.
We will have democracy - period. The people will decide what the role of govt is and what they want from a govt.
You have already decide for the people.
I raised this previously, that it is an underlying fact that people will tend to fall into two catigories regardless of their political brand, they will either trust the people or they will move towards and elite who know better and give them the democracy they think best for them.
I will draw a line in the sand.
I am for giving power to the people and from that point they have to re-invent society, no taking treasures of Egypt (capitalism and communism) into the promised land.
Are you prepared to let the people decide or do you think it is best to determine whats best for them?
IF you examine the principles upon which Social Credit is built you will discover the basics of true democracy. Beacuse he has exposed the fraudulent banking system that rules govts and economies he put up a propsal of how a democratic econoimy/banking system could be run. The SC position is that as long as you preserve the transparent principles that clearly retain power in the people you can skin a cat any which way you like, there is no hard and fast single way. Douglas made proposals for both the situation in NZ and canada and they were quite different because the conditions were different, that s the sort of command he had of the subject.
DonQ has put the basic point by saying teach people how to fish
and then let them go to it. Thats the SC position. Let THEM go to it. Thats trusting and treating them as free people.
No monopoly on where you can fish what type of rod and bait,
and pay the piper to cast a hook.
SOme things are probably best done through govt as the eg by Woj such as Dams etc. There is always the option of shares to every citizen and dividends, which they can live on in retirement.,
no state pensions based on taxes. Sound like Alberta?
  • 0

#3837 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 10 September 2004 - 04:38 AM

Come out, and tell it like it is...;)

Ellsberg Urges Insiders to Leak Iraq Info
By KATA KERTESZ, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - Daniel Ellsberg, the former Defense Department official who leaked the Pentagon (news - web sites) Papers during the Vietnam war, is urging government insiders to provide similar classified documents about the invasion of Iraq (news - web sites).

Joined by other whistle-blowers and former government employees, Ellsberg said at a news conference Thursday that claims of government deception and lies have "little credibility" unless supported by documentary evidence, which often is available only in classified materials.

In a memo to current government employees, Ellsberg and other former government officials said federal insiders owe a "higher allegiance" to the Constitution, the public and American soldiers in Iraq than to their government bosses.

"A hundred forty-thousand Americans are risking their lives every day in Iraq for dubious purpose," the memo said. "Our country has urgent need of comparable moral courage from its public officials. Truth-telling is a patriotic and effective way to serve the nation. The time for speaking out is now."

The memo acknowledged that whistle-blowers risk personal setbacks, such as losing their jobs, but urged them to act nonetheless. "You may save many Americans from being lied to death," it said.

Sibel Edmonds, who was fired by the FBI (news - web sites) after she alleged security lapses in the agency's translator program, said the government frequently over-classifies documents, including the investigation into her own case.

Among the documents claimed to be wrongly classified are sections of reports from Army investigations into prisoner abuse in Iraq and Afghanistan (news - web sites), and supporting material for then-Army Gen. Eric Shinseki's February 2003 estimate that several hundred thousand troops would have to stay in Iraq after the war.

Ellsberg was a special assistant to the assistant secretary of defense during the Vietnam War. He released the 7,000 page classified study to the Senate and 19 newspapers in 1971 and now leads the Truth Telling Project.
  • 0

#3838 Pliny

Pliny

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3587 posts

Posted 10 September 2004 - 06:59 AM

Bader:

I don't mean to rail against SC as far as systems go it seems as appealing as any that are extant except a totalitarian socialism or communism. European socialism is even a bit much. Even Canada for that matter.

Having read some of the references you provided I did not see how the wealth was to remain in the hands of the people. I'll be repeating myself if I go on so I'll wait for your next post.

Government, as I said is the only agency that is granted the ability to use, or grant the use, of force. That being so, it is a focal point of power that attracts all kinds of corrupt individuals. The corruption of government is therefore, I feel, the biggest problem to solve. Justice, being the province of government, is always a target for subversion.

Justice must be blind. It cannot see one person as being different from another and so it is with government. All citizens should be treated equally by government. It attracts those who "know what is best for all" and power-mongers of every sort so there must be safeguards. One of them is to keep government mandates limited and definitely not involved in philanthropy. It has nothing to offer people, in the way of a social safety net, that it doesn't have to force someone else to pay for and that society couldn't do a better more efficient job of providing. Left alone the economy will provide enough wealth to support whatever social structure the people decide on or else they will change it. But force and coercion can not be a part of that social structure. Government must be looked to for forcible settlement or for the protection of person and property only.

Honest money, and not money created out of thin air, as we both agree is not honest, must also be a part of the foundation for a society to have any sort of longevity. Once the money has been corrupted the decay starts in earnest.

Justice and money are the key factors, in my mind, that must be maintained as pure and honest.

Woj:

Howdy Pliny
Utopia may exist, but it will mean different things to different people. That's why is best to have choices from kibbutz to libertarian enterprises. How about that? Woulk you accept COMPETITION?



There would be no reason for anyone to live in Utopia, maybe just visit.

Competition! Of course! But not between governments - that is war. Just socio/economic structures, based on rules and regulations that are agreed upon by the participants. Kibbutz or commune, private property or collectives.
  • 0

#3839 Bader

Bader

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1757 posts

Posted 10 September 2004 - 10:58 AM

Howdy Pliny:

You did get your toga in a knot a little, we are all human. The issues are supposed to be about your proposal not about Social Credit.
To catch up I will almost have to write a book mostly about your
questions and accusations about Social Credit when you should
be answering my challenges.
Most of what you question and suppose are the SC deficiencies
have previously been covered by me in the earlier engagement.
I dont propose to go to all that detail again at this point because that just feeds the digression away from the subject at hand=
your proposal. We might in due course get back to these later
if we still discuss these issues in themselves after you have answered my challenges to your proposal.
A national credit authority and all the other bureacratic work reguired ( you talked about valuation and pricing, GNP etc) will be done by bureaucrats, this is their role, in private and public enterprise and if the fractional reserve system is to be replaced there will be big changes from your proposal as in SC. Who do you invisage doing it? Dentists? Sheep farmers?
Your concerns re people awarding themselves wage rises, prices,
inflation are all based on the mindset of the current system.
Douglas was very much outside the square, regarding the fuction of money, employment, accounting so its like a new language
and again if you have a different money system with totally different dynamics the outcomes are going to be very different so you cant plan for countering things that wont be there.
You cant see how SC would put the control in the hands of the people. YOu need to show how in your proposal you are going to achieve that in your gold system.
You sidestepped my challenge by saying I dont understand the gold standard. You have simply said yours will be based on gold
and no explanation.
there are three options-
a/ the people have it and it is stored in the banks as you intimated (so how does everyone get their gold?, you sidestepped.)
b/ the govt owns the gold. THis is no option as your refuse
govt all but two roles - Police/justice and defence.
c/ the banks. Means the banks still hold the power.
If you want your proposal to have credibility you have to give some reasonable explanation, after all you expect substantial explanation from me re SC, is this a sample of justice under your system?

regards pooling wealth and dividends being socialism, it happens in companies and corporations and coops, none of which are
socialist. Under socialism the state owns the wealth/resources
and people merely get wages and salaries for working them for the state.

regarding Alberta, it never really got core SC going because the
Canadian federal govt refused Alberta the power to create its own money. They may have introduced new proposals
different from the two old political hack system which reflected
new thinking in the SC manner but Douglas who originally was invited go to Alberta as a advisor to the guy in office didnt in the end due to growing contention. There is no detail on it but the implication is the leader had ideas of his own, meaning he only wanted from the "expert" what suited him and pretty soon the expert would be held in dispute because of the lack of wisdom on the part of the other.
We had the same over here many years back, the attack on Douglas and SC over what they did in Alberta claiming it was what SC was all about. Shabby political propoganda.

Regards govt being as small as you propose, I had only looked at it within the frame of your proposal. Looking at it from the point of view of govt being the body of lawmakers representing the public and having a constitution, I would have to say your proposal is nothing short of a coup against democracy. This is very serious, no less serious than the Nazi seizure of the political system in Germany.
If you reduce govt down to one or two functions you reduce what the people can have any say on or representative on and what the constitution can provide a check or balance on.
Who will make the laws?
Your proposal that economic and social interests should be seperated from govt is as unthinkable as seperating the social from the economical. Govt follows the money, who ever controls the money will control govt and policy on everything.
Give the power over peoples money back to the people they will then rule not the banks, be so much better off they not only wont need govt hand outs and the main reason we have taxes is because of debt.
No debt no taxes, no lion no problem.
You have to explain your gold based system because you havent said anything about taxes in your proposal.
There are no vacuums. Take away the present position of govt
and who will fill the space/power presently occupied by govt?
Can you show how it will be the people by your proposal?
Because you havent done that is why it looks like the picture of Brazil.
  • 0

#3840 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 10 September 2004 - 11:58 AM

<There would be no reason for anyone to live in Utopia, maybe just visit.

Competition! Of course! But not between governments - that is war. Just socio/economic structures, based on rules and regulations that are agreed upon by the participants. Kibbutz or commune, private property or collectives. >

Howdy Pliny
OK, the tamed capitalist lion and the little animals can live in peace by each having their own space just as pictured in the Bible. There's no need for the fox in government.

Whatever government there is concerns with the good of society not with waging war, etc.

Of course, you can come and visit. (Just bring something to drink.);)
  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Copyright © 2016 Pravda.Ru