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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#3841 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 10 September 2004 - 12:10 PM

Originally posted by donquijote
<There would be no reason for anyone to live in Utopia, maybe just visit.

OK, the tamed capitalist lion and the little animals can live in peace by each having their own space just as pictured in the Bible. There's no need for the fox in government.



Utopian capitalism, utopian communism, utopian God love ..Utopia in contrary to reality of life
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#3842 donquijote

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Posted 10 September 2004 - 01:21 PM

Guys, this article tells it like it is. The cost is too high for the media to ignore--they are afraid to be swallowed by the quagmire...;)

How Many Deaths Will It Take?
By BOB HERBERT

It was Vietnam all over again - the heartbreaking head shots captioned with good old American names:

Jose Casanova, Donald J. Cline Jr., Sheldon R. Hawk Eagle, Alyssa R. Peterson.

Eventually there'll be a fine memorial to honor the young Americans whose lives were sacrificed for no good reason in Iraq. Yesterday, under the headline "The Roster of the Dead," The New York Times ran photos of the first thousand or so who were killed.

They were sent off by a president who ran and hid when he was a young man and his country was at war. They fought bravely and died honorably. But as in Vietnam, no amount of valor or heroism can conceal the fact that they were sent off under false pretenses to fight a war that is unwinnable.

How many thousands more will have to die before we acknowledge that President Bush's obsession with Iraq and Saddam Hussein has been a catastrophe for the United States?

Joshua T. Byers, Matthew G. Milczark, Harvey E. Parkerson 3rd, Ivory L. Phipps.

Fewer and fewer Americans believe the war in Iraq is worth the human treasure we are losing and the staggering amounts of money it is costing. But no one can find a way out of this tragic mess, which is why that dreaded word from the Vietnam era - quagmire - has been resurrected. Most Washington insiders agree with Senator John McCain, who said he believes the U.S. will be involved militarily in Iraq for 10 or 20 more years.

To what end? You can wave goodbye to the naïve idea that democracy would take root in Iraq and then spread like the flowers of spring throughout the Middle East. That was never going to happen. So what are we there for, other than to establish a permanent military stronghold in the region and control the flow of Iraqi oil?

The insurgency in Iraq will never end as long as the U.S. is occupying the country. And our Iraqi "allies" will never fight their Iraqi brethren with the kind of intensity the U.S. would like, any more than the South Vietnamese would fight their fellow Vietnamese with the fury and effectiveness demanded by the hawks in the Johnson administration.

The Iraqi insurgents - whether one agrees with them or not - believe they are fighting for their homeland, their religion and their families. The Americans are not at all clear what they're fighting for. Saddam is gone. There were no weapons of mass destruction. The link between Saddam and the atrocities of Sept. 11 was always specious and has been proven so.

At some point, as in Vietnam, the American public will balk at the continued carnage, and this tragic misadventure will become politically unsustainable. Meanwhile, the death toll mounts.

Elia P. Fontecchio, Raheen Tyson Heighter, Sharon T. Swartworth, Ruben Valdez Jr.

One of the reasons the American effort in Iraq is unsustainable is that the American people know very little about the Iraqi people and their culture, and in most cases couldn't care less. The war in Iraq was sold as a response to Sept. 11. As it slowly dawns on a majority of Americans that the link was bogus, and that there is no benefit to the U.S. from this war, only endless grief, the political support will all but vanish.

(This could take awhile. In a poll done for Newsweek magazine this week, 42 percent of the respondents continue to believe that Saddam Hussein was directly involved in the Sept. 11 attacks.)

We've put our troops in Iraq in an impossible situation. If you are not permitted to win a war, eventually you will lose it. In Vietnam, for a variety of reasons, the U.S. never waged total war, although the enemy did. After several years and more than 58,000 deaths, we quit.

We won't - and shouldn't - wage total war in Iraq, either. But to the insurgents, the Americans epitomize evil. We're the crazed foreigners who invaded their country and killed innocent Iraqi civilians, including women and children, by the thousands. We call that collateral damage. They call it murder. For them, this is total war.

President Bush never prepared the nation for the prolonged violence of this war. He still hasn't spoken candidly about it. If he has an idea for hauling us out of this quagmire, he hasn't bothered to reveal it.

The troops who are fighting and dying deserve better.
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#3843 donquijote

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Posted 10 September 2004 - 02:45 PM

< Nobody could indicates anything wrong in national socialism. ->

Nothing wrong if you were a German, but if you were a Slavs. But now, of course, you'd reverse the situation: poor Germans, needless to Anglos. What would you do out of them, toothpaste?:confused:

<Socialism totalitarianism and corruptive democracy; what is worse?>

What we are saying here is BOTH ARE BAD. But you forget how much corruption there was among the party bosses--a fact that allowed them to carry over and change their party suit for the business suit.:confused:

Even if there were a true Law of the Jungle (not fixed by the lion) we wouldn't be in such a mess. Then coops would be the natural refuge for the little animals to be safe from the big predators. And let people "vote with their feet.";)

Pliny will probably like this article. It's too competitive for my taste (and it fails to mention the suffering that people went through in the 19th century to feed the big lions), but we could accept it if there was a place for coops. Anyway, if their system is that bad, it would be our gain. And if isn't, the people gain too. Either way is a WIN-WIN SITUATION...;)

What do think, Bader?


Let's stop bailing out these 'former' Communists
By Vin Suprynowicz
web posted October 1998

In his book "The Myth of the Robber Barons," historian Burton Folsom Jr. draws a distinction between real free-market entrepreneurs -- the kind who ask only that government stay out of their way as they develop new markets by giving customers better kerosene or steel or steamboat travel, at ever-lower prices -- and a different type of "entrepreneur," the "political entrepreneur" who invests his time hanging about the halls of the capital, cajoling or buying government favors.

The subsidized enterprises cobbled together by such grafters have rarely worked out well, Folsom reports. When the U.S. government helped fund the building of steamships through mail subsidies in the mid-19th century, graft and corruption permeated the process, and the resulting "cost-plus" ships -- though impressively huge -- ended up slow and barely seaworthy. Private entrepreneurs like Cornelius Vanderbilt scorned the subsidies and beat the socks off the government glad-handers, winning away passengers and freight alike by offering transport that was faster and cheaper, with an admirable safety record.

Unfortunately, many Americans today have forgotten these lessons of history. Instead, our public schools teach that self-made "robber barons" like Vanderbilt, Carnegie, and Rockefeller were heartless exploiters -- ignoring the way the tireless efforts of these men raised standards of
living around the world, allowing masses of people for the first time to turn their attention to better health care, better nutrition, even such luxuries as the arts.

The very success of these great Americans is held against them -- their ability to buy out their competitors or drive them out of business seen today as marks of "concentration" and evil "trust-building."

This twisted view of history has real-world ramifications as foreign nations today despair of such failed and blood-soaked experiments as communism, and seek American advice on how to restructure their economies.

The proper answer would be to emulate the American system as it existed up until the Civil War (to some extent, up till 1912.) The main role of a central government would once again be to provide a strong court system and a consistent rule of law - a way for contracts to be enforced while theft, fraud and extortion were promptly punished -- while otherwise staying out of the way of free banking and consensual commerce.

Instead, supplicants are all too often advised these days to take out huge international bank loans to finance or maintain big centralized farms, factories or dams -- "entrepreneurship" on the model of the federal Department of Housing and Urban Development.

When such projects inevitably fail, "bailouts" are offered by the International Monetary Fund -- with a few hooks embedded: even higher taxes, even more centralization, the continued "propping up" of fiat paper currencies with the real worth of toilet paper.

In Russia, when communism "fell" in the early '90s, there was never any real catharsis. The old leaders were never required to publicly admit their complicity in theft, murder and fraud on a massive scale. The heirs of those whose properties were seized from 1917 to 1921 were never sought out and compensated; no Communist mass murderers were put on trial.

Instead, foreign loans were sought to maintain the same old unprofitable government-owned factories -- paying their workers to continue churning out goods no one wanted -- postponing real ground-up reform while enriching the same old bosses.

To this day, Russian law still prevents average citizens from owning real estate, or buying and selling goods at a profit "without a license." Tax rates are so high that the only way merchants can survive is to pay "protection" to private gangsters, to kneecap any official tax collectors who may happen along.

The old gangsters simply put on new suits. Yet as this system finally collapses, what will be blamed? Why, thanks to the lazy lip service paid all this "reform" by the Bush and now the Clinton administration -- praising such cosmetic costume-changes as "democracy" -- this whole mess will soon be condemned under the false label of "a failure of the American-style free market."

About as "all-American" as the way Al Capone ran Chicago!

There has been enough "propping up" of old evils in Russia.

Let the most recent $22 billion of IMF cash be the last. President Clinton should give the Russian people the harsh news: They need to establish their own private banks and stock markets, writing a legal code that will protect the pooling and investment of their own wealth to build a free-market economy from scratch.

Russia cannot just be ignored -- 7 000 nuclear warhead see to that. But this "buying time" against real reform -- endless billions in bad loans with the ever-more-stretched U.S. taxpayer left on the hook -- must end.
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#3844 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 10 September 2004 - 04:05 PM

Liberty and democracy become unholy when their hands are dyed red with innocent blood.
~Mahatma Gandhi

MR. RUSSERT:You go on to write that Iraq was, "...the greatest strategic blunder in 40 years, a mistake more costly than Vietnam."
MR. PAT BUCHANAN: Certainly, Tim, I believe it is an unnecessary war; it is an unwise war. The United States, by invading that country and taking over its capital, we have inflamed the entire Middle East and Arab and Islamic world. American prestige and support for the president and the United States has never been lower in that part of the world. And Mr. Rumsfeld's question has been answered.
He asked, "Have we been creating more terrorists than we are killing?" When he said that, some 5,000 insurgents were said to be in Baghdad by General Abizaid. The latest count is 20,000. I believe this war itself is creating a pool, a spawning pool out of which Osama bin Laden can draw recruits. I think that there has been nothing that has done more to put Osama bin Laden, if you will, in the mainstream of the Arab cause of nationalism than what appears to the Arabs to be to be a near-imperial adventure by the United States in Iraq.
MR. RUSSERT: We now have a situation where Saddam Hussein and his number two are in captivity. Is the world not safer without them presiding over the country of Iraq?
MR. BUCHANAN: Well, , Tim, we've got ourselves a hellish situation there. It was not a problem. Saddam was a criminal and a thug and a brute, but he was no threat to a country that flew 40,000 sorties over Iraq in 10 years. He did not shoot down a single one.
MR. RUSSERT: Would you send more American troops or would you withdraw?
MR. BUCHANAN: This is the question that, I think, should be put to John Kerry and the president of the United States in the debates: "Mr. President, if John Abizaid comes to you and says, 'We can't do it with the present complement, we need 75,000 more American troops'
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#3845 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 10 September 2004 - 04:21 PM

Originally posted by donquijote
< Nobody could indicates anything wrong in national socialism. ->
Nothing wrong if you were a German, but if you were a Slavs. But now, of course, you'd reverse the situation: poor Germans, needless to Anglos. What would you do out of them, toothpaste?:confused:


Let's stop bailing out these 'former' Communists
By Vin Suprynowicz
In Russia, when communism "fell" in the early '90s, there was never any real catharsis. To this day, Russian law still prevents average citizens from owning real estate, or buying and selling goods at a profit "without a license." Tax rates are so high that the only way merchants can survive is to pay "protection" to private gangsters, to kneecap any official tax collectors who may happen along.
Russia cannot just be ignored -- 7 000 nuclear warhead see to that. But this "buying time" against real reform -- endless billions in bad loans with the ever-more-stretched U.S. taxpayer left on the hook -- must end.




Poland in last few years lost 2 milion citizens who emigrated to Germany in intention never return to Poland again......

This may be a reason why Russians has unemployment 8% when democratic Poland 19%.

Polish refused to make 31 August the holiday memorizing victory of Solidarity.
Not many people consider it as a happy day in Polish history.
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#3846 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 10 September 2004 - 04:40 PM

Not only Polish see the present as a deplorable time in Polish history, but Germany as well ;

Fourteen years and a trillion euros after reunification one in five Germans would like to see the barrier that split the country during the Cold War put back..
A poll by the Forsa institute found a quarter of western Germans wishing the 15 million east Germans were cut off again by the Berlin Wall, living in a different state, while 12 percent of eastern Germans wanted out of the united Germany.
In the formerly communist east, which has twice the unemployment as in the west and where wages are still below western levels, one-third said they were no better off financially because of unification and the end of communism.
Two top diplomats recently said they were alarmed at the poisoned atmosphere. Former East German Foreign Minister Markus Meckel said they feared the east-west gap was growing. http://story.news.ya...rmany_wall_dc_1
Repeating lies don
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#3847 donquijote

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Posted 10 September 2004 - 05:11 PM

Is there a possibility of left-right coexisting?

http://engforum.prav...?threadid=91932

Think about it guys, "Can a bird fly with one wing?" Then reply to the question above. The true divide is elsewhere...;)

"The Great Divide"

Let the photos flash before your eyes and ask yourself: "Am I for smarter bombs or smarter kids?"

http://www.retrovsmetro.org/

Understanding the uncivil war

The Uncivil War affects every American, whether raising kids on an hourly wage with no health insurance, or dodging bullets on the streets of Baghdad, or ingesting dirty air and water, or wondering if our votes will count in the coming election. This conflict is as old as the 13 Colonies and as new as Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. Until now, the two sides have never been precisely defined --- or named. We call them Retro and Metro America. On this website you can learn about these two Americas and how the escalating war between them affects each of our lives. You also can order the groundbreaking bestseller: The Great Divide: Retro vs. Metro America.

***

Thus you see left and right wings both opposing war in Iraq...;)

MR. RUSSERT:You go on to write that Iraq was, "...the greatest strategic blunder in 40 years, a mistake more costly than Vietnam."
MR. PAT BUCHANAN: Certainly, Tim, I believe it is an unnecessary war; it is an unwise war. The United States, by invading that country and taking over its capital, we have inflamed the entire Middle East and Arab and Islamic world. American prestige and support for the president and the United States has never been lower in that part of the world. And Mr. Rumsfeld's question has been answered.
He asked, "Have we been creating more terrorists than we are killing?" When he said that, some 5,000 insurgents were said to be in Baghdad by General Abizaid. The latest count is 20,000. I believe this war itself is creating a pool, a spawning pool out of which Osama bin Laden can draw recruits. I think that there has been nothing that has done more to put Osama bin Laden, if you will, in the mainstream of the Arab cause of nationalism than what appears to the Arabs to be to be a near-imperial adventure by the United States in Iraq.

http://www.antiwar.c...?articleid=3520
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#3848 donquijote

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Posted 11 September 2004 - 12:44 AM

"The shepherd always tries to persuade the sheep that their interests and his own are the same."
~Marie Beyle

No, they are not. He wants to fleece the sheep. My wife just told me of a pep talk they gave her today at work to the same effect. The shepherd wants them to work harder. Waterhole though only gives a trickle of dirty water...:confused:
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#3849 donquijote

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Posted 11 September 2004 - 12:57 AM

He's pretending to be good, but he definitely doesn't want the best for the sheep he's deceiving.

***

Beware of

false prophets,

which come

to you in

sheep's clothing,

but inwardly

they are

ravening

wolves.

Matthew 7:15

http://www.homestead.../sheepwolf.html
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#3850 donquijote

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Posted 11 September 2004 - 02:23 AM

Thanks for all of your support. And go see "Super Size Me," "Control Room," "The Corporation," "Orwell Rolls Over in His Grave," "Bush's Brain," Robert Greenwald's films and the upcoming "Yes Men." You won't be sorry!

According to Michael Moore.;)
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#3851 donquijote

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Posted 11 September 2004 - 02:39 AM

A Review of The Film Orwell Rolls In His Grave
By Ron Kaufman

"All over Oceania this morning there were irrepressible spontaneous demonstrations when workers marched out of factories and offices and paraded through the streets with banners voicing their gratitude to Big Brother for the new, happy life which his wise leadership has bestowed upon us.

"For the moment [Winston] had shut his ears to the remoter noises and was listening to the stuff that streamed out of the telescreen. It appeared that there had even been demonstrations to thank Big Brother for raising the chocolate ration to twenty grams a week. And only yesterday, he reflected, it had been announced that the ration was to be reduced to twenty grams a week. Was it possible that they could swallow that, after only twenty-four hours? Yes, they swallowed it . . . with the stupidity of an animal."
-- from Nineteen Eighty-Four by George Orwell

(snip)

Orwell Rolls In His Grave is a well done film that presents the Orwellian notions of "doublespeak," "big brother" and "the endless war" in a contemporary context. Ironically, its message of corporate media control and the loss of free speech in America will never get any exposure. The film is critical of the very companies it needs for effective distribution. Politics and conspiracy theories aside, the film makes a strong case against the consolidation of media companies. In the end, the film polarizes the United States into "us" versus "them" -- this being "the general public" versus "the corporate elite." The public may eventually learn of this viewpoint, but one thing is certain. It will never be reported in the media.

As Mark Crispin Miller explains in the film, individuals may get headlines and specific companies may be investigated in newspapers and TV, but the system will never be scrutinized. Big media will never admit that it has influence over our world and corporations may allow airtime for parts of the truth, but the whole truth will never get broadcast.

http://www.turnoffyo...rwellrolls.html
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#3852 donquijote

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Posted 11 September 2004 - 03:10 AM

Guys, remember I used this expression a while back?

You want to know where the Fox is? Just follow the money... ;)

"rule number one of investigative reporting is "follow the money" -- but the sheiks' piggy banks were effectively off-limits to the US agents during the Bush years."


SEPTEMBER 11: WHAT YOU "OUGHT NOT TO KNOW"
DOCUMENT 199-I AND THE FBI'S WORDS TO CHILL THE SOUL

Thursday, September 9, 2004
by Greg Palast

On November 9, 2001, when you could still choke on the dust in the air
near Ground Zero, BBC Television received a call in London from a
top-level US intelligence agent. He was not happy. Shortly after George W.
Bush took office, he told us reluctantly, the CIA, the Defense
Intelligence Agency (DIA) and the FBI, "were told to back off the Saudis."

We knew that. In the newsroom, we had a document already in hand,
marked, "SECRET" across the top and "199-I" - meaning this was a national
security matter.

The secret memo released agents to hunt down two member of the bin
Laden family operating a "suspected terrorist organization" in the USA. It
was dated September 13, 2001 -- two days too late for too many. What
the memo indicates, corroborated by other sources, was that the agents
had long wanted to question these characters ... but could not until
after the attack. By that time, these bin Laden birds had flown their
American nest.

Back to the high-level agent. I pressed him to tell me exactly which
investigations were spiked. None of this interview dance was easy,
requiring switching to untraceable phones. Ultimately, the insider said,
"Khan Labs." At the time, our intelligence agencies were on the trail of
Pakistan's Dr. Strangelove, A.Q. Khan, who built Pakistan's bomb and was
selling its secrets to the Libyans. But once Bush and Condoleeza Rice's
team took over, the source told us, agents were forced to let a hot
trail go cold. Specifically, there were limits on tracing the Saudi money
behind this "Islamic bomb."

Then we made another call, this time to an arms dealer in the Mideast.
He confirmed that his partner attended a meeting in 1995 at the 5-star
Hotel Royale Monceau in Paris where, allegedly, Saudi billionaires
agreed to fund Al Qaeda fanatics. We understood it to be protection money,
not really a sign of support for their attacks. Nevertheless, rule
number one of investigative reporting is "follow the money" -- but the
sheiks' piggy banks were effectively off-limits to the US agents during the
Bush years. One of the men in the posh hotel's meeting of vipers
happens to have been a Bush family business associate.

Before you jump to the wrong conclusion, let me tell you that we found
no evidence -- none, zero, no kidding -- that George Bush knew about Al
Qaeda's plan to attack on September 11. Indeed, the grim joke at BBC is
that anyone accusing George Bush of knowing anything at all must have
solid evidence. This is not a story of what George Bush knew but rather
of his very-unfunny ignorance. And it was not stupidity, but policy: no
asking Saudis uncomfortable questions about their paying off roving
packs of killers, especially when those Saudis are so generous to Bush
family businesses.

Yes, Bill Clinton was also a bit too tender towards the oil men of
Arabia. But this you should know. In his last year in office, Clinton sent
two delegations to the Gulf to suggest that the Royal family crack down
on "charitable donations" from their kingdom to the guys who blew up
our embassies.

But when a failed Texas oil man took over the White House in January
2001, demands on the Saudis to cut off terror funding simply stopped.

And what about the bin Laden "suspected terrorist organization"? Called
the World Assembly of Muslim Youth, the group sponsors soccer teams and
summer camps in Florida. BBC obtained a video of one camp activity, a
speech exhorting kids on the heroism of suicide bombings and hostage
takings. While WAMY draws membership with wholesome activities, it has
also acted as a cover or front, say the Dutch, Indian and Bosnian
governments, for the recruitment of jihadi killers.

Certainly, it was worth asking the bin Laden boys a few questions. But
the FBI agents couldn't, until it was too late.

In November 2001, when BBC ran the report on the spike of
investigations of Saudi funding of terror in November 2001, the Bush defenders whom
we'd invited to respond on air dismissed the concerns of lower level
FBI agents who'd passed over the WAMY documents. No action was taken on
the group headed by the bin Ladens.

Then, in May this year, fifty FBI agents surrounded, invaded and sealed
off WAMY's Virginia office. It was like a bad scene out of the
'Untouchables.' The raid took place three years after our report and long after
the bin Ladens had waved bye-bye, it is not surprising that the feds
seized mostly empty files and a lot of soccer balls.

Why now this belated move on the bin Laden's former operation? Why not
right after the September 11 attack? This year's FBI raid occurred just
days after an Islamist terror assault in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.
Apparently, messin' with the oil sheiks gets this Administration's attention.
Falling towers in New York are only for Republican convention photo ops.

The 199-I memo was passed to BBC television by the sleuths at the
National Security News Service in Washington. We authenticated it, added in
our own sleuthing, then gave the FBI its say, expecting the usual,
"It's baloney, a fake." But we didn't get the usual response. Rather, FBI
headquarters said, "There are lots of things the intelligence community
knows and other people ought not to know."

Ought not to know?

What else ought we not to know, Mr. President? And when are we supposed
to forget it?
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#3853 donquijote

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Posted 11 September 2004 - 03:50 AM

I'm sorry guys, so much reading but this guy is the best. I get his letter, and I'd hate to delete them like that...;)

DON'T LOOK AT THE FLASH
September 8, 2004
by Greg Palast

On September 11, 2001, we Americans were the victims of a terrible
attack.

By September 12, we became the suspects.

Not one single U.S. citizen hijacked a plane, yet President Bush and
Attorney General John Ashcroft, through powers seized and codified in the
USA PATRIOT Act, fingered 270 million of us for surveillance, for
searches, for tracking, for watching.

And who was going to play Anti-Santa, watching to see when we've been
good or bad? A guy named Derek Smith.

And that made September 11, 2001 Derek's lucky day.

Even before the spying work could begin, there were all those pieces of
people to collect - tubes marked "DM" (for "Disaster Manhattan") - from
which his company, ChoicePoint Inc, would extract DNA for victim
identification, work for which the firm would receive $12 million from New
York City's government.

Maybe Smith, like the rest of us, grieved at the murder of innocent
friends and countrymen. As for the 12-million-dollar corpse identification
fee, that's chump change to the $4 billion corporation Smith had
founded only four years earlier in Alpharetta, Georgia.

Nevertheless, for Smith's ChoicePoint Inc., Ground Zero would become a
profit center lined with gold.

As the towers fell, ChoicePoint's stock rose; and from Ground Zero,
contracts gushed forth from War on Terror fever. Why? Because this outfit
is holding no less 16 billion records on every living and dying being
in the USA. They're the Little Brother with the filing system when Big
Brother calls.

ChoicePoint's quick route to no-bid spy contracts was not impeded by
the fact that the company did something for George W. Bush that the
voters would not: select him as our president.

Here's how they did it. Before the 2000 election, ChoicePoint unit
Database Technologies, held a $4 million no-bid contract under the control
of Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris, to identify felons who
had illegally registered to vote. The ChoicePoint outfit altogether
fingered 94,000 Florida residents. As it turned out, less than 3,000 had a
verifiable criminal record; almost everyone on the list had the right
to vote.

The tens of thousands of "purged" citizens had something in common
besides their innocence: The list was, in the majority, made up of African
Americans and Hispanics, overwhelmingly Democratic voters whose only
crime was V.W.B: Voting While Black. And that little ethnic cleansing
operation, conducted by Governor Jeb Bush's gang with ChoicePoint's
aid, determined the race in which Harris named Bush the winner by 537
votes.

To say that ChoicePoint is in the "data" business is utterly to miss
their market concept: These guys are in the Fear Industry. Secret danger
lurks everywhere. Al Qaeda's just the tip of the iceberg. What about
the pizza delivery boy? ChoicePoint hunted through a sampling of them and
announced that 25 percent had only recently come out of prison. "What
pizza do you like?" asks CEO Smith. "At what price? Are you willing to
take the risk?..."

War fever opened up a whole new market for the Fear Industry.

And now Mr. Smith wants your blood. ChoicePoint is the biggest
supplier of DNA to the FBI's "CODIS" system. And, one company insider
whispered to me, "Derek [Smith] told me that it is his hope to build a
database of DNA samples from every person in the United States."

For now, Smith keeps this scheme under wraps, fearing "resistance" from
the public. Instead, Smith pushes "ChoicePoint Cares" - taking DNA
samples to hunt for those missing kids on milk cartons. It's for, "the
mothers of this country who are wrestling with threats" - you know, the
pizza guy from Al Queda, the cult kidnappers. In other words,
ChoicePoint's real product, like our President's, is panic.

In Hollywood, Jack Nicholson picked up the zeitgeist: "If I were an
Arab American I would insist on being profiled. This is not the time for
civil rights."

Maybe Jack's right: screw rights, we want safety.

But wait, Jack. We're both old farts who can remember the Cuban
Missile Crisis. In 1962, the Russians were going to drop The Big One on us.
But we didn't have to worry, Mrs. Gordon told us, if we just got under
the desk, covered our necks. And she'd warned, it will all be OK as long
as we, "Don't look at the flash!"

ChoicePoint's Smith admonishes that, if we
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#3854 Pliny

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Posted 11 September 2004 - 03:53 AM

When totalitarian government spends less money for military , police than democracy, when military involvement of totalitarian government is smaller than democracy I see unbeatable priority of totalitarianism.



As if they can match the expenditure. But police are less necessary because people live in terror of them.

Not that the American IRS doen't do a good job of terrorizing.
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#3855 Pliny

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Posted 11 September 2004 - 05:40 AM

>>>a/ the people have it and it is stored in the banks as you intimated (so how does everyone get their gold?, you sidestepped.)
b/ the govt owns the gold. THis is no option as your refuse
govt all but two roles - Police/justice and defence.
c/ the banks. Means the banks still hold the power.<<<

I didn't sidestep. I answered the question. If you don't mind my evaluation, I think you are also a little guilty of trying to compare this with the mindset of the current system.

As I do not have a full concept of the socio/economic/political structure of Social credit if I see any relation to socialism I throw it in the same pile.

I cannot differentiate from what I know of SC from the current sort of what is termed as a "mixed system" of capitalistic/nanny state/democracy. Totally unworkable, in my mind; and democracy that can vote itself largesse from public coffers, as in today's western world, is creeping socialism heading blindly for the totalitarian state.

Who should own the gold?
The people should own the gold.
It doesn't matter who stores it. The government or the banks.
It is necessary that it be understood that the gold belongs to the people. Notes issued by the government or banks must not exceed what is held in the vaults. Those notes, or the amounts electronically issued, are redeemable for the gold. How is that different than the current system?

Gold has some value. Notes and electronic entries do not but for convenience are the currency. Each note and each electronic entry must truly represent a quantity of gold that belongs to the person. The gold never "belongs" to the bank or the government.
It is on deposit.
Silver could also be used and so could platinum but each transaction must "represent" a transfer of actual wealth.

This is how the system was supposed to have worked but as you know they started issuing currency that no longer guaranteed to the bearer that it was redeemable in gold or silver. What's to prevent them from doing it again? We know the scheme.

What is the difference between a gold backed paper currency and a fiat paper currency?

A fiat paper currency is a currency by decree or authorization.
It holds no value other than what is decreed. This is a manmade decree and it in itself should send shivers down peoples' spines.
This happened in the early sixties in the US.
It can only be viable as long as the decree can be maintained or upheld. The money people have can immediately be worthless.
How's that for stability and security?

We know the evils of fractional reserve banking. Fractional reserve banking used to be based on the amount of gold that was held in the bank. When the gold standard was abandoned fractional reserve banking became based on the GNP of the nation, and the central bank supplied the currency. The removal of the gold standard allowed them to create money according to the GNP. If they went past the GNP the government ran a deficit. Each year the deficit is added and that becomes the national debt. Now, the debt is astronomical and that is owed to the bankers. The goverments are hamstrung by the bank and the bank more or less will authorize further debt based, not on GNP, but on what policies it likes. The future GNP is forfeited, all the gold has been stolen under our noses; and most people do not even realize this is the case. They will now start stealing real estate. They won't do it openly but will make a person feel it was all his fault for mortgaging and not considering that interest rates might go up beyond what he could afford.
Although I am not certain that last action will occur; it is along the lines of the way things are planned so that true responsibility is never spotted. It always has to appear to be an unavoidable circumstance and never a planned action.

I will leave for now what other dangers occur with a fiat currency and how a gold backed currency could prevent them.

Justice indeed needs to ensure the sanctity of "honest money".
We cannot stand on the tightrope of a paper currency, which could fall at any time, and all the ills associated with it.
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#3856 donquijote

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Posted 11 September 2004 - 12:35 PM

Originally posted by Bader
Greg Palast's article is one of many that have some revelation that supposed to provide a little insite but the share volumn of them just adds to the confusion. One wonders if a host of overlapping incidents are invoked to encourage shrillmania which in the end merely gets most people confused and the trail becomes unreadable.
Paul Krugman on the otherhand is just another pantomime writer
that makes big digressing issues out of minor things so the real big issues never get the attention they should. A parallel of the election opposition to Bush.



Well nobody comes close to us, but it's not their fault.:D

Anyway, another problem is that I don't see him attacking other lions. For example he doesn't seem to see the new lion in town just because he's dressed in sheep's clothing: Hugo Chavez in Venezuela. Or Castro or Ghadaffi. You must be consistent to be credible, right?

At least, over a year of debate, we know where we are going, and we also know that we must reject ALL lions...;)


'Nearly six years into his presidency, it is still unclear where Chavez intends to take his "revolution."

But so far, despite being characterized by some as Cuban-style socialism, his reform project seems to be a blend of social welfare and grassroots civic participation, with a strong dose of free-market economics.

In the past 18 months, the government has launched a gamut of social programs directed at Venezuela's poor, many of them with assistance from the Cuban government.

They include subsidized food markets and soup kitchens, health clinics run by Cuban doctors, dentists and ophthalmologists, and an array of education programs, ranging from literacy classes to university scholarships.

But there has been no attempt here to confiscate private property or create state-owned enterprises.

Instead, the government is handing out property titles to hundreds of thousands of slum dwellers and offering micro-credits to small-scale entrepreneurs, measures that have been championed by free-market economists as keys to reducing poverty in developing nations.

Meanwhile, oil money is gushing into the country like never before, helped by the record prices and continued inflow of investment from multinational companies such as Exxon Mobil, ChevronTexaco and ConocoPhillips.

And despite American antagonism toward Chavez --Bush endorsed a short-lived April 2002 coup attempt against him after it occurred and the U.S. Congress has financed opposition groups through the National Endowment for Democracy-- Venezuela remains the fourth-largest supplier of crude oil to the United States.

"That this is a Cuban-style project is an exaggeration," says Patricia Marquez, academic director at the IESA business school here and a weekly columnist for leading opposition newspaper El Nacional.

"Part of the confusion is, it's not clear because we've got I don't know how many thousands of Cuban doctors in the barrios and the doors are wide open to all the multinational oil companies. We're selling oil to the United States, and at the same time giving it to Fidel."'

http://gregpalast.com/
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#3857 Bader

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Posted 11 September 2004 - 09:44 PM

Howdy DonQ:
I wasnt intending to critercize Palast, he is a great writer and we have a few around like him but we need a thousand times more.
If the media industry wasnt so tied up I guess we would and we could 'retire'.
There seems to be little treasures to be found and made public to confuse and that last post is a good example: what is going on in Venezuela? It seems to be a situation in which anyone of any political persuasion can find something to feel good about.
Anyway for a one world govt to come together all the strands that the Lion allows, while in competition to keep each other in check and all to jump on non-conformists like us, are all going to be pulled in together.
Perhaps thats Chavez's revolution.
He perhaps has begun instituting rhythem to the lions madness.
If he is a hero to all those national socialists that hate the free market because he survived the CIA coup and still lets the multi-nationals have their way thus becoming an influence on how others will follow their hero maybe the coup was meant to fail.
Whats new about puppet shows?
ITs clear to me the left and the unions have embrased globalism and are tolerating the frenzy feeding of the corporatism on route to world govt. They are looking forward to centralised power
through which they believe they will have their new day (they all see a new day in the aftermath of the strings coming together, such is the melodramatic and lascivious humour of the
conspirational lion) a day of regulation that will produce the social justice through centralised democricy that Lenin promised.
Fools paradise will turn out to be a fools parody.

Howdy WOj:
I just joking about the swastika due to the popular image of national socialism. What is it realy? A German socialist party
created a rightwing regime, had some great ideas for providing
certain things to all citizens while the multi-nationals helped build
a go-ahead nation with depression all around, while at the same time built the most modern war machine that was very hard to stop.
Huge collateral damge along the way. IN some ways it was a little like Venesuela in that it had something that all could fine to praise both left and right.
I have for a long time considered the Third Reich as a window of the future. Many of it characteristics are becoming features of todays world which confirms my suspicion.
For you I expect you want a socialistic state that is its own boss
not subject to any form of imperialism. Dubchek may have produced a good society initially in this regard but the major falt of socialism is that the power dynamics will attract the wrong people who will abuse the power as they do everywhere. You must realise that a successful Czecoslovakia would have been an enemy of the CCCP and Wall st. Non-conformists who can provide a better experimental alternative to the dialectic material puppet show productions cannot be allowed to exist.
There was evidence at the time in 1968 that W. German intelligence offered contribution to Soviet excuse to invade.
The lion in whom you trust is a bad lion.
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#3858 Bader

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Posted 12 September 2004 - 01:01 AM

Check out this site Woj:

tells you where the 'terrorists' in Jugoslavia originated etc.

www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO405E.html
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#3859 donquijote

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Posted 12 September 2004 - 04:11 AM

<I wasnt intending to critercize Palast, he is a great writer and we have a few around like him but we need a thousand times more.>

Howdy Bader
No, I think he knows where the lion is and everything, just like Orwell, and he's sharp in his language. But he doesn't get through to the proles. We need the same message of Animal Farm but with a few paragraphs and a solution the little animals can see. I think we got that, don't we?;)

<If the media industry wasnt so tied up I guess we would and we could 'retire'.

What are going to do after we retire? Take care of the grandchildren, the 'little animals'?;)

<There seems to be little treasures to be found and made public to confuse and that last post is a good example: what is going on in Venezuela? It seems to be a situation in which anyone of any political persuasion can find something to feel good about.
Anyway for a one world govt to come together all the strands that the Lion allows, while in competition to keep each other in check and all to jump on non-conformists like us, are all going to be pulled in together.>

Big lion spawns little lions which fill the void of the enemy, and so the little lions do with the big lion. It's dialectic, right?

<Perhaps thats Chavez's revolution.
He perhaps has begun instituting rhythem to the lions madness.
If he is a hero to all those national socialists that hate the free market because he survived the CIA coup and still lets the multi-nationals have their way thus becoming an influence on how others will follow their hero maybe the coup was meant to fail.
Whats new about puppet shows?
ITs clear to me the left and the unions have embrased globalism and are tolerating the frenzy feeding of the corporatism on route to world govt. They are looking forward to centralised power
through which they believe they will have their new day (they all see a new day in the aftermath of the strings coming together, such is the melodramatic and lascivious humour of the
conspirational lion) a day of regulation that will produce the social justice through centralised democricy that Lenin promised.
Fools paradise will turn out to be a fools parody.>

The lion only fears the proles who are many and unpredictable. They are the only hope and we have to reach them. Bader, you never said anything about Orwell, or did I forget about it? It's been so long. We are approaching 4000!

By the way, who do you think bin Laden would vote for?:cool:

http://engforum.prav...?threadid=96366
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#3860 Bader

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Posted 12 September 2004 - 04:54 AM

Howdy DonQ:

I havent made any comment about Orwell, partly because it was so long agao that I read Animal Farm that I have no perception in relation to him as an author. On the other hand he has been
labelled an insider, not sure if he was involved with British intelligence in some way so again, question marks as to his motive.
Things may not be as they seem, as with Michael Moore. Whats Moore ploy, put your hand up for a few parking violations and get away with crimes against humanity?
Animal Farm has some importance but the world has become so
enmeshed in complexes of smoke and mirrors in three-d I rather think the Imfamous Protocols are far more important because they
expose the multiple intrigues that seem to be in operation both at national and internationl level. Im talking about the content,
the title and controversy of the origin isnt important. If the origin was important the controversy would be over the credibility of the
intrigue/conspiracy, but it is only ever around the other way as though it was a case of who cares who's doing the dirty we just want to know who suggested doing it a hundred years ago.
The traditional response was that the Protocols were a fraud, yet no one has produced the originals to prove it.
Apparently they were merely one chapter of a book. But like good media students there are no conspiracies, and so I guess there is no lies about Iraq and no organised crime, Clinto didnt drop his trousers in the Oral office, come on us humans arent that bad surely?
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