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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#3881 Bader

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Posted 13 September 2004 - 06:24 PM

Well its not as bad as Iraq but is a good start. And its all based on the Americans mad at 'terrorists' through a holywood production Sept 11.
Just more psychological games by those who have grasped the key tools that the great PR man helped to set loose on society,
the one who was Frueds cousin, another psychoplayer who set
loose in society his own freek-creations.
They should re-write the song "The way to San Jose" to be
"The way to Guatanamo Bay".
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#3882 Bader

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 07:33 AM

Howdy Woj:

John Howard is the Sherriff of the North Pacific remember, he's keeping Amerry-car free from the North Koreans.

Byelorussia must be a terrorist state like Iraq, Iran and Nth Korea
if they kicked Georgie Sorrows out, Georgie and King Georgie
Bush are bringing democricy to the world and by george they are going to get it.

I've found the messiah DonQ!!!!!!!!!!!

Condone-leesa Rice
Here's the giveaway quote:

"the terrorist threat can only be overcome when lies are replaced by truth"

Remember the song "in the jungle, the mighty jungle, the lion sleeps tonight" (wimaway)? Well not anymore if they stop
condoning lies.
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#3883 Pliny

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 09:11 AM

If gold goes up in value: it makes more profit for those who market it (one dollar becomes two) as oil but becomes more expensive for the consumer who uses it.



Unfortunately, I have some company for a few days and cannot spend a lot of time.

Bader,

I am not an economist so I do not have at my fingertips all the intricacies or details of how to accomplish or manage a gold-backed currency.

Try and get the above point. Gold is a commodity like any other product, currency is also used to represent it. If it becomes more valuable of course the producers make more profit. The people who own gold, as represented by their money or currency(the gold being stored away in a vault), also benefit by the gold they own increasing in value. All other commodities will be easier to buy.

It is true that if gold goes up in price the wages for their labor, also being a commodity, will go down. This equalizes everything out but there is a gain in the value of savings. Saving is thus encouraged and does not get eaten up over time by inflation. Inflation may occur but only temporarily and on a minor scale compared to the current system. This promotes stability and security for those saving for pensions.

I never said people have to buy gold. They earn it through work.
They are paid in notes that say they are redeemable in gold.

There has to be a way for the gold to be stored and it has to be safe. Banks would be best as there would not be a monopoly. The idea of a central bank is out. Fractional reserve banking would have to be outlawed.

By the way, any system that recognizes the current system is not only unsustainable and unstable but fraudulent, and eliminates those things I would get behind.

Aberhart was only in power for eight years. The money he printed was for the people and a representation of a dividend of the provincial GDP. It was dirisively called "funny money" and the idea never really was given the oppotunity to be proven as it would not have been allowed that.

Woj:

The American government is indefensible. I can't argue with your points being invalid. They are most valid. Is it not obvious that they no longer represent the American citizen? The American citizen may support it out of a sense of loyalty or blind trust but more and more of those citizens are wondering why they are not getting answers to crucial questions on crucial issues.

DonQ:
A quick question. How is the kibbutz financed?
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#3884 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 10:34 AM

Originally posted by Pliny
[B
I never said people have to buy gold. They earn it through work.
They are paid in notes that say they are redeemable in gold.

There has to be a way for the gold to be stored and it has to be safe. [/B]



Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war.
~Donald Rumsfeld
Grotesque view on war and
sweet and sour taste of gold .

In Poland of socialist time, the Polish zloty had depressed value. One zl was about 1/100 of dollar and of gold accordingly.
I don
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#3885 Bader

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 10:52 AM

Howdy Pliny:

You are still missing the point which I have had to go back over a second time already - I listed three main agents through which your economy/financial system was to be insulated against
fraud etc.
You chose the people. Now you say you didnt.
The gold has to be purchased and bought into the country before any wages etc can be paid by money backed by gold.
Who is going to do the calculations of how much gold has to be bought, given its volumn then sets the volumn of money allowed in circulation. How is it going to be bought, by whom etc.
You are going to to have to determine whether banks and the rich can import as much as they like, given your society is a free market unhindered by govt regulations, and its a commodity.
Govt has not dealings with the economy and the volumn of money is determined by the volumn of gold. Whats to stop gold from being ****ed out of the country by the global market?
Especially if there is a shortage, the bigger economies will rob the smaller ones and who will volunteer to tear their money up to reduce its volumn down to that of the gold?
You dont have a central bank you cant control the volumn of money/inflation by interest rates.

You are not adressing debt or interest which theretically cannot be paid unless the gold equivalent has been added to the national reserve base.
Then also if the people actually dont own the gold who does?
You dont want the bankers to own it or govt and you say the people, who is all there is left, dont have to get it/set it up, so who does, the tooth fairy? Somehow it will just evolve or what?
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#3886 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 11:36 AM

Originally posted by donquijote
<I have some interesting news of Venezuela. It seems Chavez is more interested in real justice and not making everyone equal by seizing from those that have and giving to those that haven't. I believe he can keep the CIA out and any other outside negative influences. The oil in Venezuela will allow him to accomplish that.
I think he is genuine in his efforts but we will see. A lion for the people? Is that a possibility?>

They need experts, not from Cuba, but from successful models, and then be creative to improve on it or adapt to Venezuela's circumstances.


Do you intend the North Polar temperatures from Scandinavia implement in Cuba or kibitzes ?
I have to add that this small Cuba had 17 models in Athens Olympic competition as any of your favorite countries.

Life expectancy in Cuba is
total population: 77.04 years
when Us is
Life expectancy ;
total population: 77.43 years

I would for sure prefer Castro than our Polish president Kwasniewski who hosts in Poland
Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi when majority of Polish condemn US war on Iraq, and no honest Irag citizen should cooperates with US. :confused:
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#3887 donquijote

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 11:36 AM

Originally posted by Bader
Howdy Woj:

John Howard is the Sherriff of the North Pacific remember, he's keeping Amerry-car free from the North Koreans.

Byelorussia must be a terrorist state like Iraq, Iran and Nth Korea
if they kicked Georgie Sorrows out, Georgie and King Georgie
Bush are bringing democricy to the world and by george they are going to get it.

I've found the messiah DonQ!!!!!!!!!!!

Condone-leesa Rice
Here's the giveaway quote:

"the terrorist threat can only be overcome when lies are replaced by truth"

Remember the song "in the jungle, the mighty jungle, the lion sleeps tonight" (wimaway)? Well not anymore if they stop
condoning lies.



Howdy Bader
Everything is predictable, even what's happening in Russia is predictable, and must be pleasing Woj. Anyways, they ask, "What's the fox good for in times of crisis?" Fox system or lion system, what's good for the little animals?

Anyway, I've come across a new book by a famous Mexican journalist, Jorge Ramos, whose title is, "To the Hunting of the Lion," and he states, "Anyone who fails to hunt his lion runs the risk of being devoured by him".... Don't we know that, ah?;)

And then I post a question asking if he's after the little, medium or the real big lions. Who knows, some lion hunters only go after this or that lion but never confront the jungle.

I wished you could see the movie "Network" I mentioned before where the anchorman tells the people to go to the window and shout against the system. Of course, he's shot by "terrorists"--paid by the network--because he stopped being good business for them and he was educating the people.

Here's something on the Mexican journalist...

À la caza del léon (To the Hunting of the Lion)

(I guess he masters that fine art common to politicians and journalists of saying nothing in many words. I'm yet to contact him, and say, "Hey how about 'no lion no problem'?");)

From The Critics
Publishers Weekly
The popular Univision anchorman's fourth book features chats with the winners and runners-up in both the Mexican and U.S. presidential elections of 2000, as well as an exclusive interview that same year with former Mexican president Carlos Salinas. Also here is a talk with Vieques activist Ruben Barrios and an edgy encounter with Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez. Ramos prides himself on asking powerful people discomfiting questions, though the answers he elicits are seldom surprising. A selection of 10 short essays on topics such as e-books, cell phones, and globalization rounds out the volume with genial truisms. The veteran journalist, born in Mexico, schooled in the United States, and steeped in the distinctive international politics of Miami, understands his audience well and presents a broadly appealing, inoffensive print persona that clicks with a broad mainstream. Ramos picks his few targets of criticism prudently and unfailingly favors feel-good platitudes over complex analyses: "If we've learned anything from all this," he concludes in his discussion of the Florida balloting debacle, "it's that every vote, truly, is important." The writing style and diction are amiably relaxed and inclusive. Due to Ramos's immense popularity, this book is recommended for all bookstores and public libraries. Bruce Jensen, Silver Falls Lib./ Oregon State Lib., Salem, CA Copyright 2001 Cahners Business Information.
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#3888 donquijote

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 11:46 AM

Originally posted by woj1@cyberonic.
Do you intend the North Polar temperatures from Scandinavia implement in Cuba or kibitzes ?
I have to add that this small Cuba had 17 models in Athens Olympic competition as any of your favorite countries.

Life expectancy in Cuba is
total population: 77.04 years
when Us is
Life expectancy ;
total population: 77.43 years

I would for sure prefer Castro than our Polish president Kwasniewski who hosts in Poland
Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi when majority of Polish condemn US war on Iraq, and no honest Irag citizen should cooperates with US. :confused:



Well, if you move to Cuba, we sure are going to miss you as there you are not allowed Internet, or many other things for that matter. Now Big Brother Castro runs preparations for the hurricane and even forecasts the whether. Don't you want that?:confused:

Also you know why we are in this mess? Because "niño Elian," (the miracle kid) who landed in America in a raft, was returned to Cuba by the Democrats, and the pro-lion Cuban community decided to punish them for that and voted for Bush.

THE LITTLE LION FEEDS THE BIG LION AND THE BIG LION FEEDS THE LITTLE LION.

It always works that way...;)
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#3889 Bader

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Posted 14 September 2004 - 07:41 PM

Little lies creat big lies, and big lies sporn many more little lies to hide the big lie, and the many little lies make the big lie bigger.
Spreads like cancer- lie-on and on and on.
One cant complain about it taking over ones own country and people and rejoice at what it does elsewhere in the world.
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#3890 donquijote

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Posted 15 September 2004 - 12:40 AM

Originally posted by Bader
Little lies creat big lies, and big lies sporn many more little lies to hide the big lie, and the many little lies make the big lie bigger.
Spreads like cancer- lie-on and on and on.
One cant complain about it taking over ones own country and people and rejoice at what it does elsewhere in the world.



Howdy Bader
I liked the li-on and on and on... As you say, "no li-on no problem." All the time we discover some meaning in it, usually hidden to most people. ;)

You know, I thought this which even the most stupid shepherd would know: there's going to be some separation needed b/ predators and prey. How can we trust the lion to mix with the sheep? Coops--the water well--are best way for little people to watch over themselves without the usual risks.

I'll try to research how the kibbutz sustain themselves which Pliny inquires about, but coops are by definition self-sufficient. My info is that they got into debt--just like nations--over a borrowing spree. So they too may have been victims of the lion.

You know, Bader, you spoke over and over about some substance getting people sick in Iraq and I didn't know what you were talking about. Is Depleted Uranium? I just saw some article with some terrible photos of children. Even soldiers can be affected by it.... And the DU wasn't even necessary. :confused:
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#3891 donquijote

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Posted 15 September 2004 - 01:19 AM

The question is not if kibbutz are profitable or not--they are--but what could we learn from their experience. Remember also, this COMPETITION may not be liked by the lion--in this case the Likud, which moved to starve them.:(

What we need to create is NOT kibbutz but alternatives to the lion-controlled Water Well. Sure we can use some expertise from them, but that's about it. Of course, we also need REGULAR COOPS.;)

I start here with the end of the article to make my point...

RO: What is your long-term prognosis for kibbutzim's ability to compete in the global market for processed agricultural goods? Can they survive against giants such as ADM or can that only be done with heavy subsidies and if so would that constitute fair trade with struggling agricultural export economies in developing nations?

GB: The kibbutzim today practice advanced technologies in agriculture, and industry. The solution for the kibbutzim is to create joint ventures with multi-national corporations, to give them the investment capital required to expand and the access to growing markets. Can small American family companies in survive against multi-nationals like ADM? This is a question for all companies. To succeed they also need to learn the appropriate management skills, financing, marketing etc. to be well positioned to enter into negotiations of this kind. The main point is how to stay away from multi-nationals' skilled and expensive lawyers. Some the most highly subsidized farmers in the world are the Americans, e.g. American soybean growers.

RO: Can kibbutzim survive in a form that would be recognizable to the founders as a kibbutz?

GB: Probably not, but clearly recognizable to people who are searching for a slightly better and more humanistic lifestyle than that offered by most contemporary societies.

***

RO: When did you first become interested in kibbutzim?

JM: I was in a socialist-Zionist youth movement in the 1970s in the U.S.--in Philadelphia, Hashomer Hatzair, which supported aliyahh (immigration) not just to Israel, but to kibbutz. While I didn't make aliyah, I remained committed to the ideals of the kibbutz movement and the left wing Zionist movement and remain so to this day. Gary Brenner made aliyah to kibbutz in the 1970s from his home in Los Angeles, to Kibbutz Hatzor, where he settled and raised a family. He has been intimately involved in the changes at Hatzor.

RO: In a Nov. 30 LA Times OP-ED article you've discussed the tax breaks and other support for settlements in the occupied territories that could have gone to kibbutzim. Has this policy further exacerbated their fiscal difficulties? How do you think this shift occurred despite widespread support among the Israeli electorate for a two state solution?

JM: The kibbutzim lost their state support when the Likud, led by Menachem Begin, came to power in 1977. The Likud had a strategy to starve the kibbutzim, because they rightly understood that the kibbutz movement was integral to the broader labor Zionist movement and that the health of the kibbutz movement aided the health of the left wing. However, even when the Labor Party came back to power, the process of economic liberalization was popular among the left too. In the recent decades, the Israeli left has been more defined by its position on the peace process and less on economics. As the consensus in Israeli society emerged--among left and right--to privatize most aspects of the earlier socialist system, it became impossible for the kibbutzim to remain the only pure form of socialism within the broader state.

However, it is also true that the kibbutzim did make a decision not to pursue settlement beyond the internationally recognized borders of Israel. A small exception is in the Golan Heights, where there are a handful of kibbutzim, all of whom are committed to moving after a binding agreement between Syria and Israel. Today, the Israeli public consistently supports shutting down settlements and moving to a two-state solution. In fact, now leaders of the Likud--even Sharon himself--are calling for an end to specific settlements. The Israeli public understands that the price to be paid for continuing the occupation is something that severely threatens the Zionist dream.

RO: You seem to feel that settlements are kibbutzim's anti-secular exclusionary counterpart but would it be inaccurate to say that kibbutz have been less than cosmopolitan themselves particularly in regard to Sephardic and Ethiopian Jews? Why didn't a place at the table materialize for them as well? With Sephardic dissatisfaction providing such ammunition to Likud is there a way to incorporate them into Labor's policies?

GB: This observation is not accurate. The kibbutzim were a key part of the process initiated by the Labor governments to absorb Sephardic Jews in the 1950s-1960s via the development towns and the regional factories that the kibbutzim owned. They also settled youth aliya--Sephardic children living in the kibbutz and educated by the kibbutz. The Ethiopian Jews are another story. They arrived at a time when the kibbutz was already weakened, economically and socially. Major cultural differences didn't make their absorption into the kibbutz a viable alternative. At least one kibbutz school system (near Hatzor) has a complete program for Ethiopian Jews.

JM: Yet, there is a lingering resentment by many in the Sephardic community to the way the Labor government of the 1950s settled the new immigrants in new towns and villages and how many became employed by kibbutz factories, but had to live in the development towns, many of which were not considered as inviting as the kibbutzim themselves. Today, however, the Likud is losing support among many Sephardic Jews due to its Thatcherite economic policies. Israeli politics is much more fluid today than simply the two traditional parties--Labor and Likud. In fact, it is new parties that are consistently gaining members, due to a range of domestic reasons, political, religious, and cultural.

RO: Also, have the kibbutz movement or Labor attempted to reach out to new immigrants from the former Soviet Union?

JM: The majority of Jews from the former Soviet Union have little interest in the kibbutzim because of the kibbutzim's association with socialism.

RO: You discuss in Our Hearts how the Yom Kippur war exposed young kibbutznikim to how life is lived in the rest of Israel and wrought considerable changes in how they perceived their communities. Is such cosmopolitanism compatible with kibbutz ideology or will it provide a recipe for further dissolution?

GB: The Yom Kippur war created a breakdown in the internal belief of kibbutznik kids in the government and the social systems. "Cosmopolitanism" is not an issue for kibbutz alone, but for all rural vs. urban societies.

JM: There is no question that for many young people born on kibbutz, the lure of the big city -- Tel Aviv, for instance -- is enticing. But one should also acknowledge that the kibbutz society, while originally an agricultural, rural society, also enjoyed and still enjoys a level of intellectual and cultural stimulation found rarely among other rural communities worldwide.

RO: What did the kibbutz symbolize in the early days of the Israeli state and what does it symbolize now? What about Israel lent itself to the unique kibbutz model and why didn't it catch on anywhere else?

JM: The kibbutz was integral to the notion of Zionism as the majority of Zionists--the left or labor Zionists--envisioned it. The kibbutzim were created to settle the state and to build new citizens--new Jews--in a form of enlightened belief. Though they never exceeded 4% of the Israeli population, and today represent only about 2% of the state's population, their influence in the building of Israel far exceeded their numbers. They provided political and military leadership. They fed the country with their agricultural output and they offered a vision of liberal and human Jewish life to the outside world. This project was unique to Israel and to Zionism.

http://newpartisan.s...-a-vestige.html
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#3892 Bader

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Posted 15 September 2004 - 01:53 AM

Its power lies in the fact that us humans are students learning
about ourselves, the environment and the origin of life (religion
means to bind back and some go back to a Creator and others to laws of nature and claim they werent created) AND so the trial
of the trail is to learn to descern the truth from the plethora of
the 'market' of information.
So controlling information by controlling the media, politicians and academics to determine what spin is applied, what interpretation
of events, history; creating subtle power games like the fractional reserve banking system that is a giant protection mafia racket but unseen by most, secret societies and insider elite
think-tanks that advise the phoney leaders, attacking culture
and religion directly and by substitution, destroying parental influence at younger and younger ages, inventing deseases to whittle down certain races,
spiked imunisation etc etc all done by deceipt, subterfuge,
bribbery, threats, murder etc etc.
So its like Gulliver lying prown and tied down and unable to
realize he can stand up if wanted to and he cant decide to until he sorts out what he is believing in his mind.

Found an interesting quote from Orwell the other day:

"Those who control the present control the past. Those who control the past control the future."

Review that in terms of those who control (information) how to think/ perceive/interpret. We see those who control the media
for example ingrain their interpretation of the past that caused the situation of today. It ensures the game stays on track into the future.

What man does reflects what he thinks/believes so control that
and you have a civilisation of slaves. The lie is second to nothing else in the game of control and win.

So its very important that people knows the basis/principles upon what they build on, they are the landmarks, take them away and people lose their compass. Most people in discussing the problems of the world aim at the symptims and reform those but leave the undelying bad principles intact that gave rise to the symptims. THis show that the education systems of the western world (at least) have raised a generation of people who have no clue as to what society is really based on. We just make vague
references to freedom and democracy for example but are empty
and blind, fit only for following the crowd like a bunch of slaves.

Coops can be slaves of the money masters if they operate as most businesses and use the banks debt money. They should be more prosperous than most enterprises and thus clear their debt
but the ability to clear debt can be a trap of complacency and so they are continually getting back into debt or further into bigger debt if they get carried away. Then the market changes and sales drop and they are caught out.
They should try and avoid debt. One way is to agree to plow back into the business most of the profit and live simple for X number of years till they establish a strong financial base, then start to enjoy the benefits of their enterprise. They can rotate
a rate of return in a cycle, so for example every three years they will award themselves the highest payout for which they can plan for and the years in between lesser amounts which are
planned for re-investment/clearing what debt they may have/major repairs etc, so every year there is a major focus
that repeats itself every three years. Be harder to become complacent and careless about what the leaders are doing.
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#3893 donquijote

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Posted 15 September 2004 - 08:47 AM

<Found an interesting quote from Orwell the other day:

"Those who control the present control the past. Those who control the past control the future."

Review that in terms of those who control (information) how to think/ perceive/interpret. We see those who control the media
for example ingrain their interpretation of the past that caused the situation of today. It ensures the game stays on track into the future.

What man does reflects what he thinks/believes so control that
and you have a civilisation of slaves. The lie is second to nothing else in the game of control and win.>

The lie is strategy by the predators to eat the little animals. It's the camouflage of the political jungle. Then the defense of the little animals is also the lie. That's why we have to lie too in order to survive--except for us, of course. ;)

What is wrong however is that we will all die because of it. Nobody is any safer today by lying, and perfect liars do get kill all the time. And it's better to die over the Truth and not over the Lie anyway. Nobody would be safe but in the truth. It's win-win situation: if you live you live without the li-on, and if you die chances are you live without one too...;)

Did I get too philosophical?:cool:

Anyway the quote by Orwell is very accurate, and tells you how real the guy is. Some try to present him as instrument of the right, which he's not. Big Brother works boths ways.

<Coops can be slaves of the money masters if they operate as most businesses and use the banks debt money. They should be more prosperous than most enterprises and thus clear their debt
but the ability to clear debt can be a trap of complacency and so they are continually getting back into debt or further into bigger debt if they get carried away. Then the market changes and sales drop and they are caught out.
They should try and avoid debt. One way is to agree to plow back into the business most of the profit and live simple for X number of years till they establish a strong financial base, then start to enjoy the benefits of their enterprise. They can rotate
a rate of return in a cycle, so for example every three years they will award themselves the highest payout for which they can plan for and the years in between lesser amounts which are
planned for re-investment/clearing what debt they may have/major repairs etc, so every year there is a major focus
that repeats itself every three years. Be harder to become complacent and careless about what the leaders are doing.>

This a question I just posted in a large coop group, so I'm likely to get answers...

"Howdy guys, I've put together this solution based on the most successful ideas the world over, including, of course, the coops. They should be an option for everybody, not a fringe movement. Now, how can we get them started on a mass scale? Is it about credit that down the line may suffocate you? Or is it about building from scratch? What's the function of social credit in it? I see workers putting away money toward coops, the way they do toward retirement. What would be the role of a coop-friendly government? Thanks."

In other words we can use the same credit unions to finance our own water well. Mondragon is the best example of what we can do. After that, as you say, we got to rough it out. That wouldn't mean though hardship, but only a simple life, say relying on bicycles in the beginning--and anyway I need some of that myself.;)
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#3894 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 15 September 2004 - 10:10 AM

Originally posted by Bader
Little lies creat big lies, and big lies sporn many more little lies to hide the big lie, and the many little lies make the big lie bigger.
Spreads like cancer- lie-on and on and on.
One cant complain about it taking over ones own country and people and rejoice at what it does elsewhere in the world.



What I lie about Cuba? And I don
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#3895 Bader

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Posted 15 September 2004 - 11:10 AM

Do you get too philosophical? No.
I like it on a regular basis, because it tidies things up and gives added meaning to discussion.

Social credit to Social Crediters is the "increment of association."
Meaning the extra-profit of joint enterprise. It has been similarly referred to as synergism.
Individuals working alone can produce only so much in a given period of time. A group of people working under dividion of labour/ skill will produce not only more as one would expect but
the output would normally be more than the sum of what they would all produce individually. This difference between the two
is the social credit, meaning it belongs to them all and is a better way for people to be industrious in terms of prosperity. Thus a
coop is an excellent way for people to unite around a common
industry because they are the joint owners, joint decision makers,
etc and they all gain more than a share that would equal what they could make as an individual.
The social credit is usurped by capitalism and socialism. People
can work in large complexs but only get a low wage and have to work overtime. Unionism addressed a lot of disadvantages of the
individual on wages in a work force but the costs went into the prices which the worker had to bare.
Its easier for several people to combine funds to buy fixed assets for production. A common ownership makes for a better interest in working and taking care of equipment and materials, doing that little extra to saves money helps things go more smoothly,
more loyalty etc, it has to be more successful.

There are many ways people or businesses can work together
in trust for mutaul benefit. The green-dollar system and variation so it do the same, its all cooperation to enhance social credit
by cooperation- gain they wouldnt otherwise make unless thy worked together.
The biggest gain is to avoid debt and taxes.
I heard of a group of businesses in a town in NZ who decided to apply a green-dollar type arangement between them to supply each other goods and services with out the exchange of money.
Obviously that required an appropriate accounting system/record, a running balance of who owes who at any particular time and one persons debt could be cancelled by what is owing from someelse in the group. This can make it easier for businesses who suffer low cash flows that have required them to use short term overdrafts. It could also gave them GST or VAT
depending on what they call it. In this case the Tax dept found out and required them to pay all the GST back-taxes they should have paid.

The industrial revolution should have built up on coops. You can guess who would not have wanted that and benefits from how it did develop- the bankers. Like a protection racket, the business and the workers all had to use the banks because the banking system kept them bobbled AND blaming each other (boss v worker). Marx made a science out of developing this phoney fight between boss/business and the workers for the bankers, which flowed over into the phoney two party political system.
Synergism is a scientific fact not a theory.
Many properties in the material world have the means of synergy in their make up which shows that the natural world is inherently
disposed to sustainablity. With all the evidence of planet burn-out is evidence that the world is run on dangerous applications of knowledge and policy.
The choice of politcal theory, financial/economic theory and scientific theory are all involved and controlled by money-power.

A society free of compounding debt, living and prospering by various cooperating systems enjoying the full return of social credit would mean the time saved by technology would also be equally disbursed for liesure and family time intead of just to the unemployed. You can see how society would be so much more socially and psychologally healthier, more stable homes bringing up children, less crime, more respect for others because they have self respect. And the rich will still be there because no systems
like the present banking system is bleeding them, nor the govt
which has to bleed them because of debt, in fact they will be richer. It is false that the rich are rich because the poor are poor.
False and corrupt systems make poor people more than exploiting
employers and the system they operate businesses under makes them more inclined to exploit to save costs to make a decent profit they are entitled to.
If workers took over industry the banks would appoint management anyway or call in the debt which would close them.

The Social Credit school of thought has designed a finance system
consistent with the same principles, so they also jointly own the
money creation because its based on their combined credit, so society is a self funding economy for private and public activity
and get annual dividends from both. Theres no excuse for poverty and debt, they defy intelligence and the abundance of the natural world.
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#3896 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 15 September 2004 - 11:41 AM

Originally posted by donquijote
Well, if you move to Cuba,


THE LITTLE LION FEEDS THE BIG LION AND THE BIG LION FEEDS THE LITTLE LION.

It always works that way...;)



Although in Poland is never as bad as 3 hrs day in Sweden but still Poland is cold country, colder even than Sweden, because Baltic see is colder than North Sea.
North Sea is recipient warm water in winter from Mexican Gulf. :)
It would be difficult to adjust Polish on Cuba.
BTW. I don
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#3897 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 15 September 2004 - 12:01 PM

Originally posted by Bader
The biggest gain is to avoid ....... taxes.



Men must anticipate what may happen.

It is always more valuable to report the truth.
~Jean-Paul Sartre
:) :)
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#3898 donquijote

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Posted 15 September 2004 - 01:38 PM

<What I lie about Cuba? And I don-t cry about Poland; in contrary, I see in Poland the Western propaganda funeral, in Louisiana jazz style. >

At least that's stylish funeral. Most only get cheap funeral created by the media.

Cuban lion creates Miami lion and Miami lion creates Cuban lion, and that's why we are in this mess. Elderly Cuban voters are ready to punish Kerry--who's been denounced by the radio as "communist"--and reelect Bush. If it weren't tragic it could be taken for comedy...:confused:

<And more good news; Saudi Resist OPEC Quota Increase http://www.reuters.com/
Faith in Bush Unshaken in Rural Ohio Despite Economyhttp://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=ourWorldNews&storyID=6219091>

And more bad news: Restrictions on foreign ownership have been lifted in Russia. Predictable, very predictable..:confused:

http://www.channelne.../106764/1/.html

<Aggression and democracy go hand in hand....as long they have money to borrow from , after that they will turn to the kibbutzim vslavery gloom ....:) :) >

You don't even have to join a kibbutz. All you get is CHOICES.;)

Hey, but I know you prefer dictatorship. What's the diff b/ old lion and new one?
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#3899 donquijote

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Posted 15 September 2004 - 01:52 PM

Think about it: How can we aim for changing system of big countries? I know people love it everywhere, but there are so many vested interests...;)

Isn't it better to aim for little Banana Republic? The poorer the better, so there's more need for change, and anything we do is good, and there are fewer vested interests. Any country, say Haiti, even the trees are gone. So we create the coops with a high commitment of the people, bring experts from Israel wherever and create our little Utopia. What do you think?:cool:

Now for some humor...:D

> > > Call your representative and senators.
> > >
> > > Jeff
> >
> > Yeah right. Tell them, "I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take
> > this anymore!" ;)
>
> Ever hear the saying "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of
> the problem?"
>
> If you don't complain to your senators and representatives about the
> contamination of meat in stores, they won't know.
>
> And don't forget, you get a vote in about 2 months.
>
> If you have a better solution, please let me know.
>
> Jeff

I got some ideas, but things being the way they are in this country,
they better be applied in some other place. I have in mind some broke
Banana Republic, where we can play with a new system at will.

Willing to relocate?
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#3900 donquijote

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Posted 15 September 2004 - 03:04 PM

I was mixed up with SC and the money people put into Credit Unions toward retirement, financing, etc, which of course could be used to finance coops. How you call this credit?:confused:

<The Social Credit school of thought has designed a finance system
consistent with the same principles, so they also jointly own the
money creation because its based on their combined credit, so society is a self funding economy for private and public activity
and get annual dividends from both. Theres no excuse for poverty and debt, they defy intelligence and the abundance of the natural world. >

Here's a summary about the creator of SC...

'Second, many economists have rallied against the fractional reserve system of banking that prevails in the industrialized world (e.g., Irving Fisher, Lloyd Mints, Henry Simon, Murray Rothbard, Milton Friedman and most economists of the Austrian School of economics [see, for example, the Ludwig von Mises Institute]). But few, if any, other authors have explained that as productivity increases year after year, who benefits from that increased productivity is determined essentially by money and banking policy. Specifically, Douglas explains (particularly in Part 2, Chapter 2) that, if the money supply is not increased, dollars/pounds become more valuable, such that prices drop. But, if the money supply is increased just enough, the value of each dollar/pound - hence prices - can be left unchanged. Finding it desirable to keep prices unchanged in this way, Douglas then explains that, essentially, a decision has to be made about who gets the additional dollars/pounds. Under our current fractional reserve system, the banks do, by creating and lending out extra credit. Under a "social credit" system, the extra dollars would be divided up and given to all citizens in equal portions as a "dividend". His rationale: that increases in productivity - resulting as they do from innovation and technological advancement over time - are a "cultural heritage" that belongs not to banks but to all members of society. His message is clear: the citizenry are prevented from benefitting from their own cultural heritage, and this leaves them increasingly indebted to banks, and unable to reduce, over time, the portion of their lives that they spend working and simply trying to survive. Under social credit, Douglas foresees a decrease in work and an increase in leisure or, at least, the opportunity to work less if one so chooses.'

http://www.mondopoli...ocialcredit.htm

It sounds terrific, Bader, but is it too cumbersome, too bureaucratic?:confused:

Social Credit
economic plan in Canada, based on the theories of Clifford Hugh Douglas . The central idea is that the problems fundamental to economic depression are those of unequal distribution owing to lack of purchasing power. To solve these difficulties Douglas proposed a system of issuing to every citizen dividends, the amount of which would be determined by an estimate of the nation's real wealth; the establishment of a just price for all goods would be the result. The program became highly influential in Alberta during the depression years, and the Social Credit party, led by William Aberhart , won a resounding victory in the provincial elections of 1935. The program included distribution of a social dividend of $25 a month, but it proved impossible to put this scheme into practice. Attempts to tax banks and to enter on currency schemes were declared unconstitutional by the courts. Nevertheless, the party remained in power in Alberta until defeated in 1971. In the federal parliament, the party retained 6 seats until 1980, when it lost them all. The Social Credit party that continues in British Columbia diverged from the doctrines of the original party early on.

***

So back to square one, isn't the coop the most rational approach and let the jungle be jungle, which would send people voting with their feet toward coops? Of course then the lion would only have one choice: tame himself, no?;)
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