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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#3921 donquijote

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 11:50 AM

<I have reread some of the thread here and it seems that the solutions to the world's problems are right here.>

Howdy Pliny
Well, thanks for taking the time...;)

<There is no need for further input as it will only obfuscate the issues.>

Maybe we just keep going out of habit, but everytime there's one tiny contribution that makes a big difference. Take GENERAL STRIKE. That's the equivalent of the atomic bomb of the lion. It's not that you use it every day, but it's there giving you "real teeth and paws," enough to intimidate the predators. The little people do have power, real power...

In reality, I've been handing out thousands of flyers which fall...on listening ears. The people absolutely love this, some for the content, some for the party, but they are ready...;)

What this thread has given me is give plenty of inspiration to come up with many ideas that land in other threads and in the hands of the people. But as you say, it's not that necessary any more. Everything's been said.:cool:

What do you say, my good old friend Bader? Maybe we'll get bored after all?:D
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#3922 donquijote

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 03:29 PM

OK, here's the whole arsenal...

http://www.aforcemor...nViolent198.htm

Leaflets (#9) and general strike (116-117) are included. The thing is, I'm not calling for anything on the leaflets, just presenting the jungle and the solution. "Do not feed the lion" is a possibility...;)
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#3923 donquijote

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 03:58 PM

"If you want, I will come and join you in your nonviolent protest."
-Michael Moore

Tell me you don't like his movies, or his humor (I do), but don't tell me Michael Moore is not real. In this letter he's calling for no other than a GENERAL STRIKE by the Palestinians against their Israeli lion. It should work for them. But think about it, it should work for all, a solution for every single lion in this world!:cool:

What remains to be seen though is if Arafat received the letter and if he himself is not a lion...;)

Dear President Arafat:

We've never met. That's not an attempt to cop an invite over for dinner or a game of horseshoes. You're a busy man, I'm a busy man (though I can't get anyone in the office here to call me President, or respond to my directives with, "Ya, Sir!").

Sorry. That's the kind of humor that has kept me relegated to appearing only on basic cable in America (Channel 64, right after the Italian language station in New York City).

I have the key to your success. I know how you can unilaterally end the killing on both sides --and, as a bonus, wind up with a Palestinian state!

I know, you're thinking, "Hey, who is this guy?" And you're right.

But hear me out. I want to propose something so revolutionary that it will flip out every Israeli right-winger and send every Israeli peacenik running to your side.

My proposal is not a new idea. I involves no armies, no money, and no UN resolutions. It's dirt cheap. It has been tried many times, in many countries --AND IT HAS NEVER FAILED. It demands no hatred and requires no weapons. In fact, it is all about no weapons.

It's called mass nonviolent civil disobedience. It worked for Martin Luther King Jr. --his nonviolent movement brought an abrupt end to legal segregation in America. It worked for Gandhi --he and his fellow Indians brought the British Empire to its knees without firing a shot. It worked for Nelson Mandela --he and the African National Congress brought about an end to apartheid with no violent revolution.

If it worked for them, trust me, it can work for you.

Sure, you can still win through violence. The Vietnamese proved that they could whip the mightiest country on earth. And look at us --we spent eight years picking off Redcoats, and got ourselves a big country out of all the shooting!

So killing does work, I guess. The only problem is, after the killing stops you're a little messed in the head, and it takes a while before your learn to put down your guns (225 years later and we still haven't learned).

But if you'd like to try the nonviolent approach, you not only get to see fewer people die --you get your own country in the end!

Here's how it works:

1. Just sit your *** down. That's it. It's simple. You just lay your bodies down --often just a few thousand in the middle of the road will do-- and don't move and don't fight back when they try to drag you away. Instead of Israel always shutting down the borders to Gaza and the West Bank, you shut them down. Just march peacefully up to the checkpoint and then sit down. No Israelis will be able to get to their settlements. No Israelis will be able to transport goods and natural resources from your land into Israel. There is no Israeli vehicle I know of that can drive over mounds of thousands of people (not even a pair of snow tires will do the job!). Of course, they may try, and a number of your people may be injured or killed. Still, don't move. Just sit. The world will be watching --especially if you embrace the wonderful world of public relations, and alert the media to your plans. (Trust me, CNN will take your call.) And you'll end up with far fewer dead Palestinians that you yield under your current plan.

2. Call a general strike. Refuse to work for the Israelis. Their economy is based on the near-slave labor you provide them. Don't do it anymore. Who will do all their shitwork for them if Palestinians won't? Other Israelis? I don't think so! They need you and your willingness to break your backs for them for substandard wages. Watch how quickly a deal is struck once every single Arab refuses to go to work. Of course, they'll try to break you. They will cut off your water, your roads, your food, --but you must stand firm. Stockpile, then strike nonviolently, and never give in. They will.

~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~

A few years back, over a million Israelis attended a Peace Now rally in Tel Aviv. That was an amazing sight. It also means that you, the Palestinians, have a million Jewish allies --a third of the country-- in the nation you know as your enemy. A million of your "enemies" will come to your aid if you protest in a nonviolent way. Try it! Between your people and theirs, you will outnumber those in Israel who want to drive you into the sea.

Unfortunately, I know your inclination is to keep drawing blood. You think this will bring you liberation. It will not. It will turn you into those who are now killing you. And if you haven't figured out one thing about the Israelis by now, you'd better get a clue --they ain't goin' anywhere. For God's sake, man --they had six million of their people massacred by the most advanced civilization on earth. Do you think they're going to let a few stones and car bombs get in the way of their own survival? They live in a world where they're isolated and all alone. They won't quit until you or the rest of the earth annihilates every last one of them. Is that what you want? Every last Jew wiped from the planet? If it is, then you need serious help --and you're gonna have to get past me before you touch another one of their children.

But if, as I suspect, you would prefer peace and quiet to constant war and displacement, then you must lay down all arms, lay down your bodies in the middle of the road and then... just wait. Yes, the Israelis will beat many of your people. They will drag your women by the hair, they will sic dogs on you, they may even get out the fire hoses (and other tricks they've learned from us Americans). YOU MUST NOT FIGHT BACK! Trust me, when the pictures of your suffering at the hands of these brutes go out across the world, there will be such an outcry that the Israeli government will be unable to continue its oppression.

Well, there you go. If you want, I will come and join you in your nonviolent protest. It's the least I can do after helping finance the bullets and bombs that have killed your people*.

Yours,

Michael Moore

*He refers to the $US3,000 millions United States sends to Israel a year to help their economy and war effort with tax dollars of the American people.

http://www.luisprada...on-violence.htm
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#3924 donquijote

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 07:04 PM

And if it was only the lion, but the dinosaur also threatens us...

"Unfortunately, more and more consumers are choosing larger appliances, bigger homes, and tank-like vehicles for single-person trips on urban roads to malls or hypermarkets."

The stupid hungry dinosaur eats and eats until all is gone. Then it dies of hunger... ;)

"Political will and effective, appropriate policies are essential for driving change."

Energy That Moves Us

"...increased mobility of people and property has had profound impacts, altering everything from work to family to the nature and design of our cities."

Today, transportation is the world's fastest-growing form of energy use, accounting for nearly 30 percent of world energy use and 95 percent of global oil consumption. Even relatively small shifts in transport choices have significant impacts. Only 0.5 percent of the total distance people travel each year is done by air, yet planes use up about 5 percent of transportation energy.

But the most significant driver of rising energy consumption for transportation is growing reliance on the private car. Some 40.6 million passenger vehicles rolled off the world's assembly lines in 2002, five times as many as in 1950. The global passenger car fleet now exceeds 531 million, growing by about 11 million vehicles annually. About one fourth of those cars are found on U.S. roads, where cars and light trucks account for 40 percent of the nation's oil use and contribute about as much to climate change as all economic activity in Japan does. The total distance traveled by Americans exceeds that of all other industrial nations combined.

In contrast, many countries have devoted significant resources to public transport while discouraging the use of private vehicles. In Japan and Europe, much of the investment in transportation infrastructure after World War II focused on passenger trains and transit systems. Today nearly 92 percent of downtown Tokyo travelers commute by rail, and the Japanese do only 55 percent of their traveling by car. West Europeans now use public transit for 10 percent of all urban trips, and Canadians for 7 percent, compared with Americans at only 2 percent.

"Congestion charges" on vehicles entering city centers, combined with investments in public transit, have also reduced car use and pollution. In London, in response to a toll enacted in early 2003, traffic levels dropped by an average of 16 percent in the first few months, and most former car users began commuting by public transit.

Policy and Choice

"The amount and type of energy we consume is a result of two kinds of choices: those we make as a society and those we make as individuals and families."

Through subsidies, taxes, standards, and other measures, government policies have a direct impact on energy supplies, demand, and the efficiency of our homes, appliances, cars, and factories. In Denmark, where the tax on auto registrations exceeds a car's retail price, and where rail and bike infrastructure are well developed, more than 30 percent of families do not even own cars. And where governments or companies subsidize public transit, people are more apt to commute by bus or subway than by car.

Government policies affecting the price of energy are among the most important, as energy prices are among the fundamental factors determining a nation's energy intensity. Countries with higher energy prices--like Japan and Germany--also have lower energy intensities, while those with lower prices are generally quite energy-intensive, such as the United States for gas and oil, Australia for coal, and Scandinavia for electricity.

Political will and effective, appropriate policies are essential for driving change. But it is also up to us as individuals--both as consumers and as members of diverse communities--to recognize the links between our consumption choices and the impacts we have on the world around us. Unfortunately, more and more consumers are choosing larger appliances, bigger homes, and tank-like vehicles for single-person trips on urban roads to malls or hypermarkets.

As a counterbalance, though not a large one, other consumers are purchasing efficient hybrid cars, choosing locally grown produce, installing photovoltaics, and buying green power. By the end of 2002, more than 980 megawatts of new renewable energy capacity had been added to meet the demand of green power customers in the United States, and another 430 megawatts were planned or under construction. Through these and other measures, we can begin to come to grips with the limits we face and change the way we use energy.

http://www.worldwatc...cts/2004/07/07/
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#3925 Bader

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 12:29 AM

Howdy all,

The energy trap is a lesser and subsidiary trap to the money trap.
As long as we stay captured to the latter there will be no escape from the former because it controls knowledge, the use of, and all policy. Outside that few have the finance to beat the system and create an outlaw that cant be stopped.
Can you image Soros financing the water based engine? No more than the greens making an issue over it.
The rug he flies on would be wipped out from under him over night.
What did King liberate Negroes to? The same quicksand as the whites. Are they liberated?
Will riding bikes liberate us? No more than recycling media
propoganda newspaper to make it cheaper to keep us deluded.

I seriously wonder if Michael Moore is any more real than King.
He tends to obfuscate the real issues, to use a Pliny word.
The typical American thinking of Moore in his letter to an "Arab"
as though he understood what they have gone through would probably not get read past halfway and get screwed up.
I have no doubt Moore means well and he will help some people to wake up to some of the reality.
His tele-evangilist approach for those who, like to be spoonfeed
through the eyes will not change the nation. His success may breed a few others to complete a variety of a new trend. There is plenty of good bully on reality on the net, but the majority will not do the work, they would rather site back and eye "reality" on the cheap via clever compositions of photography. The likely outcome response from the public is to vote Kerry in and that is no change, least of all for the oil cabal and Saudi friends.

"A large scale strike like a general strike requires a high level of organisation". (DonQ)

True. The bigger problem is that people are all over the place regards understanding and how they feel about things so how do you get consensus on cause/target/tactics etc?
Go to the window and throw it open and shout you issue is an easy start because you can do your own thing. However a journery starts with the first step. Then talk-back radio has drawn public vent of spleen for many years, no change. Forums get bogged down in various perspectives of the participants who often just repeat competing and conflicting perspectives they have obsorbed from formal and informal education.
The most positive thing is that 'the net' allows (for the time being
at least) an open forum of freedom of information, being exercised by DonQ.
Its so easy to go on strike, in inself, but it isnt isolated from the rest of our life, and its relates to an education regards how much power we can have and should have but has been usurped. An awareness of this power is vital ( Columbus knew Nth America was there is why he went and why the Spanish Royals financed it) but there is the psychological barriers as well as the knowledge. Remember Bernays said manipulation of information was an informal govt over society. It overlaps past where govt control leaves off.

No we wont get bored, not for long DonQ. Woj might.
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#3926 Bader

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 01:07 AM

I could be cheeky and ask is that a white flag, Pliny.

Knowing what school of though we are largely happy with may not suffice
that no further input will arise. Issues pop up all the time and often it gets back to the same basics we are both concerned with.
Anyway I gree on the problem of oversized govt and I see it relating directly to the present money system and thus I belive that the one will adjust naturally back to a healthy one once the cause is addressed, rather than presuming what the natural level will be. One could prescribe what one wants it to be and thus make it an imposed one, which is a policy based on power. A natural one is based on reality we all should accept even though we dont agree entirely.
We can say lets not argue the
differences but promote that which we can agree on and look at the positives. Its easy to bog down in the differences.
I agree real problems are getting identified. Its the finer details
which will obviously be harder to agree on. Theres a time factor and if people are getting better informed and made aware/challenged through interaction the time factor in the area of equalising will reduce. However there are some philosophical basics in our background or personal choices which may never really change.

I do have some issues with the article on the noble savage and probably will get back on that.
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#3927 donquijote

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 01:51 AM

> >>>Why not have a balanced transportation system? Why not design in terms
> >>>of transporting people, not merely moving cars?
> >>
> >>
> >> How would you propose (given our Constiution etc.) to get from where
> >> we are to that point. Hard to imagine pulling it off without coercing
> >> lots of people to do things they don't want to do.
> >
> >I don't know of an article in our constitution demanding that all
> >transportation funds must be spent on car facilities.
> >
> >So I'd propose laws that mandate sidewalks along all streets, unless
> >traffic volume is below 500 vehicles per day.
> >
> >And laws mandating pedestrian access to all schools, libraries, parks in
> >urban areas, and other "kid" attractors.
> >
> >I'd want laws requiring pedestrian access from neighborhoods to adjacent
> >shopping centers.
> >
> >And laws requiring wide outside lanes, and sidewalks across all bridges,
> >even in isolated rural areas, for pedestrian and bicycle access.
> >
> >Freeways should have bike/ped bridges across them, or underpasses, at
> >every road they truncate. In urban areas, they should have such bridges
> >and underpasses at half-mile intervals, so they no longer cut cities
> >into pedestrian-inaccessible halves.
> >
> >New "mushroom-style" housing developments - the kind that get built in
> >the cornfields, and are mazes of dead-end streets to keep cars out -
> >should have "leak-through" paths where appropriate, so the streets and
> >developments are connected by bike/ped shortcuts. Either that, or just
> >require the old fashioned grid system of streets.
> >
> >Residential areas should have traffic calming features on the roads as a
> >a standard feature, to _ensure_ speeds lower than 25 mph.
> >
> >Driving kids to school should be forbidden. Drop-off zones for schools
> >should be a block from the school.
> >
> >And it _should_ be in our constitution that passenger trains get
> >adequate support funding. You know, like they do in every other
> >developed country in the world?
> >
> >
> >These would be a good start. I'm sure we can come up with more.
>
> Everything on your list is coercive social engineering, and therefore
> in conflict with the very principles our country was founded on.
>
> RJ

What did I tell you? Coercive social engineering vs. commercial social engineering. By the way, commercial engineering is OKed in the Constitution. "In Gold We Trust"... :(
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#3928 donquijote

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 02:14 AM

<True. The bigger problem is that people are all over the place regards understanding and how they feel about things so how do you get consensus on cause/target/tactics etc?
Go to the window and throw it open and shout you issue is an easy start because you can do your own thing. However a journery starts with the first step. Then talk-back radio has drawn public vent of spleen for many years, no change. Forums get bogged down in various perspectives of the participants who often just repeat competing and conflicting perspectives they have obsorbed from formal and informal education.
The most positive thing is that 'the net' allows (for the time being
at least) an open forum of freedom of information, being exercised by DonQ.>

Howdy Bader
"Nothing in the jungle is what it seems" is one of the laws of the jungle, and none of the famous people mentioned may be real, but we can't say for sure. I notice there's a higher sense of reality among the proles than among them. That's why I say--like Orwell--the hope lies in the proles. And general strike is the atomic weapon of the poor. Maybe not necessary but it's there. I suggest in one of my writings circulating among the people that a graffiti campaign be done in Cuba, and that's a good start. Just one letter--like the "Z" of Zorro--to deliver the message that we are there. I also speak about a party that sure motivates people. Throw a party with the "no lion no problem!" slogan and everybody will jumb aboard. I'm telling you, Bader, forget about the Internet, the proles are the best meter of reality and they like this message--a lot!

Let me ask you: How long since you read "1984"? And "Animal Farm"?
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#3929 donquijote

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 02:52 AM

> > Let me know when you run for office, Larisa. ;)
>
> It does sound appealing - but no one would vote for me.

You can do like the Army: A party of one. But I always see them
banding together...
>
> > In the meantime do what you do, though most people are not even
> > remotely aware of those problems, or can't afford the alternatives,
> > and there lies the problem.
>
> Lack of awareness, I think, more than the inability to afford the
> alternatives (beans are cheap). What is needed here is a huge
> publicity campaign - which would be the thing to scare the meatpacking
> companies and make them reform their practices. Posters,
> demonstrations, mass actions of all kinds. That would change things.

Yep, it sure would, at least more than writing to politicians. Will I
have to write to you when you get "up there"? ;)

Why don't politicians come "down here," at least once in a while so
they know what's going on?

Beans is awesome, and they are a staple to latin cultures, but--as you
know, since you are not a politician--much more is needed. If you live
in America, you know there are these new health food
supermarkets--Whole Foods, Wild Oats--that bring you the equivalent of
every junk food out there, without the junk. But as everything, you
need POLITICAL WILL to make things happen.

>
> > Only hope is somewhere sometime a little Banana Republic becomes a
> > Banana Revolution, rather organic, I'd say. Coming soon...
> >
> > http://webspawner.co...rs/donquijote40
>
> Hee hee. As long as they're organic bananas. :)
>
> LM (mmm....bananas....)

Or short of that, make a Banana Revolution happen elsewhere, where, of
course, bananas grow organic... ;)

We even have a political platform, Larisa...

(These things generally overlooked in the Banana Republic--except
America, of course--are taken care of in the Banana Revolutions)

"Junk food should have a warning label (just like cigarettes),
particularly the one destined to children, and also be taxed to
subsidize healthy alternatives."

http://webspawner.co...ers/donquijote1
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#3930 Bader

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 05:52 AM

Orwells 1984 and Animal Farm?

Probably about thirty years ago, not sure. I think I had a copy of 1984 or it might have only been Huxley's Brave New World.
Your lion is largely govt as I see it, which makes your main concern the same as Pliny. The lion to me controls govts, dictates the global games that govts, corporations, academia etc all conform to.
Animal Farm is low level stuff in my view, you have to move on from there. I might be wrong but I suggest that it would tend to blame Bush for Iraq and if he gets dumped well everyone forgets about what happened because Bush was at fault, he got it wrong and thank goodness he is gone now. Meanwhile the Lion starts on Kerry for the next chapter of the same sordid adventure in crimes against humanity.
This is why I am not excited about Michael Moore, he fits that to a T.
The Protocols are far more important after Animal Farm because they show the strategies of the Lion and the policy and the intended end. No chance of mistaking anything that happens as happenstance and chance from silly human nature and its vain weaknesses.
I am speaking in terms of symbolic books that are considered landmarks as far as waking people up to reality of whats happening behind the fairytail tv news.

There are many well informed books that are more specific than the Protocols as to the manipulation of govts and peoples etc.
There appears to be secret insights into humanity and science,
including psuedo-sciences from way back, which is probably where the gurus of the left and right, the Jesuits, luminati etc get it from including less shady looking people like Bernays.

You might well be getting a good response DonQ and I dont
dismiss its value either on your part of theirs. However if you ask people for money or to join anything there is likely to be a major shift and change in attitude. They love to see someone else making an effort, anyone except themelves. Cynical? Yes
and it is also true of human nature as Animal Farm.
Never the less the more they see of people taking such action as yours, no hidden agenda, becomes a respectable and normal
social action in their subconscious which means that given the right wrong circumstances they will find it easier to take action and not feel self-conscious. And that we would love to see.
There are many parts to be played in life (hey we cant all be lions!)
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#3931 donquijote

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 07:22 AM

<Orwells 1984 and Animal Farm?

Probably about thirty years ago, not sure. I think I had a copy of 1984 or it might have only been Huxley's Brave New World.
Your lion is largely govt as I see it, which makes your main concern the same as Pliny. The lion to me controls govts, dictates the global games that govts, corporations, academia etc all conform to.>

Howdy Bader
No, I know there's a problem larger than government, but the government is a major part of it, as is the corporation. It would be stupid to leave things up to the ups and downs of elections and up to the multiple, often conflicting interests of the corporations. I'm not so sure they belong to a single nationality though as that wouldn't answer why they have similar problems in Japan or China which haven't seen an individual of that nationality for ages. Likewise, Cuba got a little big lion with no apparent connection with that ethnia. In this last case, there's no corporations either so we got a problem with the homegrown lion. I think the lion is BIG MONEY and POWER in cases like communists nations.

<Animal Farm is low level stuff in my view, you have to move on from there. I might be wrong but I suggest that it would tend to blame Bush for Iraq and if he gets dumped well everyone forgets about what happened because Bush was at fault, he got it wrong and thank goodness he is gone now. Meanwhile the Lion starts on Kerry for the next chapter of the same sordid adventure in crimes against humanity.
This is why I am not excited about Michael Moore, he fits that to a T.>

No, but I mean he's not a fox. I don't think. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.

<The Protocols are far more important after Animal Farm because they show the strategies of the Lion and the policy and the intended end. No chance of mistaking anything that happens as happenstance and chance from silly human nature and its vain weaknesses.
I am speaking in terms of symbolic books that are considered landmarks as far as waking people up to reality of whats happening behind the fairytail tv news.>

Maybe but we may be playing in their hands by saying that. To me, there's an excess of influence by that powerful group, but it doesn't mean they are the only ones. Like I said before, there's black lions and oriental lions, and placing all the blame on the Jews would leave our guard down to our own lions, which is what they want...;)

<You might well be getting a good response DonQ and I dont
dismiss its value either on your part of theirs. However if you ask people for money or to join anything there is likely to be a major shift and change in attitude. They love to see someone else making an effort, anyone except themelves. Cynical? Yes
and it is also true of human nature as Animal Farm.
Never the less the more they see of people taking such action as yours, no hidden agenda, becomes a respectable and normal
social action in their subconscious which means that given the right wrong circumstances they will find it easier to take action and not feel self-conscious. And that we would love to see.
There are many parts to be played in life (hey we cant all be lions!) >

You said Animal Farm is low level stuff and still it reflects human nature.

Sure there are people who wouldn't do a thing after reading my leaflets, but most people know this lion will eat them if not stopped. They ain't fools. They know better than you and me. Given the opportunity they would do something if they know they could make a difference. And they can...;)

We got the who, the why, the what and the how, what else?
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#3932 Bader

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 10:58 AM

Howdy DonQ:

Agreed, which doesnt necessarily mean exclusive control. I dont
take for granted nor accept first the origin of the Protocols, as I have stated before, the policy is the issue and who is using them,
which is always excluded from public discussion by the initial red-herring of whether they were authentic or not and the suggestion that the words Learned Elders suggest as to the ethnicity of the authorship since any secret society could use it as other references to Old Testment or similar characteristics are incorporated into them. On the otherhand the non-presumption applies in the reverse, neither does it assume it isnt. And who ever wrote them doesnt live anymore but they are being fullfilled.
Another point is that secret societies may go back thousands of years, pre-dating "jews".
However they do draw attention to themselves by many ways including their attraction to and exercise of power in other peoples culture and their propencity to boast of their control of the affairs of other peoples.
Even so needless to say they share in the things we oppose with others and also the "Jew" label is not a singular label of a oneness. The Biblical Jew is divided into two competing peoples
and they are well outnumbered by Turkish-mongol stock of people who have no connection with the ancient history of the Middle East and the majority are atheists.
Some of the most outspoken voices on the net who pull no punches are Jewish.
Another point from history is that they are victims of their elites as much as anyone else and often first. I have more than once suggested that Israel may be in line to be humbled as much as the US. The last century has seen some very costly upheavals in terms of human life and the propensity is getting worse and the
global summit meetings (multi-racial) have produced plans intend to reduce the worlds population by two thirds. I would expect the Old Testament Hebrews stock and Christians to be major targets- because of the spiritual origin of the lion.

I would rate an understanding of the money system of much greater importance for peoples understanding than any of the books mentioned. For the simple reason it expalins not only the real invisible govt of the lion, nationally and internationally but also an understanding of the results that overflow into social,
political, war, plunder of the environment/poisening of the environment, poverty, race to seize resources etc that so much is
the concerns of people everywhere who try all sorts of political
and social suggestions accept deal to the origin of the problems.
Thus all political parties do is rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic because they will not turn the money changers out of the temple.

The nature of ones message can be reflected in the type of
people who are the receivers is another issue again.
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#3933 donquijote

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 02:24 PM

Bader, there's so many people who think like us. And there are many who are being influenced by these stories: proles, women, teenagers, kids...

There's hope: either get onboard Star Trek, or get rid ot the li-on.;)

(viewpoints A, B and C--me);)

> >You seem to think that nothing else is viable or can even get started.
> >I am getting the feeling that your motivations in this, are like that of
> >many others, a social and political agenda.
> >
> >
>
> No, I feel just as hopeless at this point about political or social
> agendas. I truely think we're screwed and at best we can try to navigate
> the mess on a small scale.
>
> There's not enough solar energy for us to capture to keep human
> civilization in it's current mode. And certainly not enough to fuel
> growth, and we're using up the fossil forms of energy.
>
> The only thing that could put off the crisis past our lifetimes, is some
> sort of Star Trek solution. Something that doesn't exist for us yet.

The only Star Trek solution I see is to get aboard a spaceship and get the hell out of here--fast. Other than that there may be a revolution of some sort to bring back evolution back into place. The dinosaurs don't want to evolve but we have to push them a little bit...

Do you see Star Trek in this picture? It's one of those dots...

http://pub36.bravene...7/fetch/330301/

>
> >>A modern turkey factory needs electricity, natrual gas, trucked in food,
> >>antibiotics, a medical station, offices, shipping and receiving docks, a
> >>processing area, full time verterinarians, a steady supply of food and
> >>water, maintenance and materials, a parking lot for employees.... All of
> >>these produced or powered by fossil fuels. Once the oil and natural gas
> >>are gone, centralized factory farms will be too expensive to operate.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >You know what is also dependent on fossil fuels? Oil rigs, coal mines,
> >oil tankers, pumps for pipe lines, refineries, etc. Yet, even though they
> >run on the fuels they produce, they still work. Agricultural waste based
> >fuel could fuel the agriculture in the same manner that a oil tanker has
> >diesel fuel powered engines to get the oil from A to B.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> They sure are. In fact pretty much everything we know is powered by
> fossil fuels. If it weren't for fossil fuels, we wouldn't have this
> discussion and I wouldn't be enjoying a cold beer brewed hundreds of
> miles away.
>
> If I thought there was a solution, I'd be promoting it. I'm to the point
> now were I don't see anything but regression as the path we'll be forced
> to take. And I know we won't take it willingly. We'll fight that path
> with guns, knives, clubs, nukes, disease,... you name it. We'll kill
> each other for the last scraps all the way down. Because at heart, we
> are fighters and scrappers. It's the reason we chose to take the oil in
> Iraq as revenge for what a Saudi is said to have done to us. Soon we'll
> be at war with Iran, then we'll have troops in Libya. Saudi Arabia will
> see unrest and our troops will be there... We'll bring back the draft
> and the only value the US will have for the world is the value a
> mercenary force can provide.
>
> There's a reason the US Industrial base is being shipped to Asia. It's
> because the energy is cheaper there than in the US. And the folks making
> their fortunes on manufacturing know it. And they don't care where their
> employees are. They live anywhere in the world they want. They have no
> national affiliations and they know it's time to abandon the US.
>
> Have a nice day.
>
> Jack Dingler

Welcome to a brave new world, the world of the jungle... ;)
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#3934 donquijote

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 03:40 PM

Howdy
I guess you guys are not enthusiastic of mixing fun and politics, but let me tell you this is the best shot we got. The proles are more interested in fun and food, though I'm sure the politicians are partly to blame for that. Something "owned" by the people--to quote Bader--must be something they can relate to. "Humanism" is too lofty for them. "Socialism" of any kind is out.

So we are this Italian friend and I discussing the Spaghetti Revolution, with or without "meatballs"?;)

'How do you like spaghetti, with meatballs or without meatballs?'

1) http://committed.to/justiceforpeace >
I've read it and it's VERY good, funny too, chiquito ;o)...
And you write about Eric A. Blair (Animal Farm & 1984), nickname 'G. Orwell', about whose work I was about to major, once upon a time. I saw read/saw both (theatre & film), and I wasn't satisfied at all by the "stage massacre"...
Also your modern and satiric fairy tales are very very good...
You know, I have written a poem (in Italian) which is a sort of compressed fairy tale, ready to be properly "staged" along with music too.
I wish I could translate and work on yours too...
So, even if I'm still striving to find some paid collaboration/job, I'm nearly pennyless - even though I do still have a home, to eat and drink, a car, phones, PC and Internet - I'll soon translate it and then will put it on my website and ezine.
I'd like to get to put up a book - even made of detacheable sheets/sections - and a CD Audio (I can write on CD too...).

2) 'How do you like spaghetti, with meatballs or without meatballs?'
'Come ti piacciono gli spaghetti, con le polpette o senza?'
(Of course this doesn't make much sense either in Italy or whenever Italian natives aroind the world are asked: we practically never eat like that, but without some good gravy, which can vary very much from area to area.)

***

Did you get the part about "meat-BALLS"? I think most ladies would like the balls, get it?;)

We are teasing ladies into the most amazing hottest party on Earth, the banana, spaghetti parties. Who can resist that? I mean, I want to see the party myself...

I read it a long time ago, but there's so much of Decameron here. In times of crisis turn to spicy stories...:cool:

***

you should let me translate your text(s)...!!!, por favor ;o).
Do you really think that I - an Italian - didn't think also about its big, funny sexual implication?
Though I think that bananas - or if you want a more technical, up-to-date term, 'joysticks' ;o)... - are even better, isn't it?
Their poor little sisters can't get into the game room...?
Of course if there aren't any hairy 'game rooms', rich 'orchards' to play with...in, the party and life itself would be much poorer...
Bananas + meatballs playing with...in little, hairy orchards/game rooms is or at least should be mostly a pleasure for the players.
Love sometimes is pain, sorrow, maybe to limit those pleasure.
Unfortunately some don't have none of them.
You quoted the 'Decameron', by Giovanni Boccaccio, the Ten (Deca) most spicy Days (Emeron) ever written in western literature, at least...

I wish I could take part in and give my creactive contribution to it in Miami.
Are you from Cuba, by any chance?
I'm definitely not a right wing at all, of course, dut don't like at all what he did and is doing with all those who criticize him and the regime, but I like the Cuban people, nature and culture and language.

We would need (are?) some sort of mind, soul and body - so 'pagan' yet highly spiritual - temples to give and take relief in the Banana Revolution and Metànya.
I envisioned something alike in one sf novel/drama/musical I've on my mind, OXMO (Nea Labrys 2048).

***

Yeah, I'm Cuban, but to me "Country is Humanity," to quote Jose Marti. And it wouldn't make a difference to me that the Jalapeno Revolution is won first before Guarapo Revolution.

The "lion" I speak about could be Castro, or it could be Bush, or it could be Berlusconi... As a matter fact black Americans--they don't know about the Banana part yet--love these stories, and so do people from all over Latin America, and then Cubans who voted for Bush last time around. I can only manage to pass out these flyers right in the middle of the jungle because they are funny...the Banana Revolution.:D

There's something so funny is Spanish--equivalent to "to be or not to be"--that I'm sure you miss: "Do you like the guarapo (the juice) with pajita or without pajita?" This "pajita" is the straw itself, but it's also the slang word for handjob. So ladies are tingled with or without banana. And then the Banana Pelada or Peluda, "peluda" being the opposite of "pelada" (without the skin), but also "hairy"...

Needless to say, this makes the "job" a lot of fun to do, instead of having to sweat that much. And, of course, they get to read the inner workings of the jungle and the solution being proposed, very much crafted to fit the needs of women and children over anything else, "Humanism" I call it...
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#3935 donquijote

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 05:08 PM

Back again, Bader.
You point out that the problem is not solved by bicycle lanes, or regulating SUVs or encouraging a healthy diet, but by changing the jungle. True, but "coming out of the jungle" means taking care of the big things along with the little things that can make a big difference in your life: The Environment, Water, Health, Free Time...

Take for example VEGETARIANISM. We consume too much meat, and while we have been speaking about building the WATER WELL, we have spoken little about how to save water. See, vegetarianism and water are connected. Actually, EVERYTHING IS CONNECTED. Just like in the jungle, there's a WEB OF LIFE.;)

And smart water policies do not require mega dams that allow for mega bucks, but community water wells that allow for SAVING. Saving water is as important as building the water well..:cool:

8,500 Gallons of Water for 1 Pound of Beef
by Jeff Nelson

April 30, 2004 -- In a study presented last week by the Stockholm International Water Institute (SIWI) at the 12th meeting of the U.N. Commission on Sustainable Development in New York, the scarcity of water was found to have a direct relation to the food choices made by people around the world.

The study, titled "Water -- More Nutrition Per Drop," was launched by Sweden's government and produced with SIWI and the International Water Management Institute (IWMI).

The report's key finding is that consumer's food choices, rather than anything under the control of food producers, has the biggest impact on water use. The report highlights the need to identify and influence unsustainable food production and consumption patterns that require excessive water usage.

The report notes that today, unlike during the "Green Revolution" of the 1960s, it is consumers v not producers v who are driving global food production. With massive urbanisation and increasing wealth, food preferences are changing with significant increases in the demand for meat and dairy products. The report's findings dramatically underscore that by choosing animal foods over plant foods, consumers are using up the worlds' water reserves at an astonishing rate.

"Between the late 1990s and 2020 world cereal demand will have increased by 40% but the world has a finite supply of water," says Frank Rijsberman, Director General of IWMI. "Current production patterns are unsustainable. They involve large scale groundwater overexploitation and widespread river depletion which poses a major threat to biodiversity and aquatic ecosystems. We are seeing ever increasing levels of environmental degradation and loss of production potential caused by water pollution from agricultural chemicals, water logging and salinisation."

According to the research of SIWI and the WMI, it takes 550 liters (145 gallons) of water to produce enough flour for one loaf of bread, while it takes 7,000 liters (1,849 gallons) to produce just 100 grams (3 1/2 ounces) of beef.

That means that it takes 8,449 gallons of water to produce one pound of beef, according to the UN report.

Contrast that with the 60 gallons of water required to produce a pound of potatoes, or the 108 or 168 gallons of water needed to produce a pound of wheat or corn, respectively.

And when looked at in terms of calories rather than weight, it's apparent that it takes around 50 times more water to produce a calorie of beef than a calorie of potatoes.

In developing countries, agriculture accounts for as much as 70 percent to 90 percent of the fresh water used, according to SIWI Senior Scientist Malin Falkenmark, and huge volumes of water are further lost in the agricultural process, turning into vapor.

Falkenmark notes that the average meat-based diet "requires 1.2 million liters (320,000 gallons) of water a year --70 times more than the 18,250 liters (4,745 gallons) a year used for the average household's domestic needs."

By going vegan, you can reduce the amount of water needed to grow your food from an average of 320,000 gallons a year to around 10,000 gallons a year.

The Swedish study illustrates what previous studies have shown repeatedly -- though this is seldom reported in the mainstream American press -- that the water required to grow food to feed one person on the Standard American Diet can feed 32 people eating a (healthier) plant-based diet.

For those concerned about equity, world hunger, and preserving the planet's resources, the choice is obvious -- shift away from consuming products which use a lot of water and other resources to produce (animal products), and move toward those foods which, coincidentally, are those which promote health (fruits, veggies, legumes and greens).

http://www.vegsource...r_stockholm.htm
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#3936 donquijote

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Posted 20 September 2004 - 03:54 AM

Originally posted by olsenescu
I am a fan of Michael Moore, but if you read any of his books he writes like a deranged 10 year old, but the plan outlined here is so simple so inexpensive and looks to me like it is the perfect solution. But it would not be as easy as it sounds. It would take many many years, but it has to be better than the current Palestinian plan, which is getting nowhere fast.



Howdy Olsenescu
I don't think a general strike would take many years or even many months, if it was proposed by the top Palestinian Authority. It remains to be seen whether they are smart enough for that, or whether there are too many vested interests in violence. I fear the latter...:(

What I'm not so sure though is that the Palestinian labor is so important to Israel. I trust Michael researched it.
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#3937 Bader

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Posted 20 September 2004 - 07:24 AM

Howdy DonQ.

Michael M's style and approach will no doubt appeal to a lot of people, perhaps in part because he is a gentle alarmbell that doesnt jar people awake.

My concerns were the same as you: the investment in terror and the likelihood that he has over rated the Israeli dependance on Arab labour.
I was also picturing the Arabs lining up at the control gates and waiting for hours for the Israelis to let them through/process them, which is normal.
Women have had babies while waiting, ambulances have been delayed while on emergency runs also needlessly because of their pratice of humiliating the Palestinians.
If there was a labour shortage I would expect they wouldnt hold them up for hours.
I wonder who wrote the script for his movie?

We've got it right DonQ,
1. Dont feed the lion which also must include dont be lead by the nose which feeds success to his practices. Instead be warned by the nose.
2. Strike: which is more practical in the practice of individuals voting with their feet. The more collectively they can do it simultaneously the better, but the voting ( a form of not-feeding)
can be done as individuals become aware and doesnt need large scale organising.
Strike includes counter-strike. If there is a strike on information we counter-strike the strike by feeding information being embargoed.
It doesnt have to be confrontational, in fact I prefer the by-passing method and geting on with what you want out of life rather than be put into a direct relationship/occupied away from what you should be doing.

For example if fifty percent of ther citizens of NY city believe, as a poll apparently has revealed, that govt officials knew that Sept 11 was going to happen, they should be taking certain action,
under the label of 'voting with their feet' in several ways. Political voting is one, which should take in the supporters including those who made big donations-businesses meaning bouycot their products, likewise the news businesses that have looked the other way, misled etc, vote with their money and support those
who are patriotic.
The children of those 50%, and it may well grow larger in the next year or so, will never forget for the rest of their lives, anymore than the parents.
Do you make suggestions in your handouts about voting with ones feet and tell a friend? Thats democracy voting every day. Not voting once every four years.

Re Animal Farm etc. it wasnt intended as a putdown. Probably half the population need to be introduced to it. One should go with what one finds works. More specific information we discussed can be overdone, even counter-productive and I usually access what people can handle. The prevelance of a labelled kind and substantial industry to try to hide things is not proof of being at the top. If I was on the third level I would feel more comfortable if the guy on the sixth level made things water tight at his level. Also I rather suspect that history doesn thave a very good record regarding willing servants over time.
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#3938 Bader

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Posted 20 September 2004 - 08:23 AM

A question you raised DonQ re Social Credit which Pliny also was concerned about.
The major change in the banking system is that they wouldnt be allowed to create money. The change is largely the money system in relation to the economy.
Banks would still be functioning, not closed down and the state opening ones up for them to run the banking system. I think it is quite evident if ones goes through the proposals that the new system would mean people better off across the whole of society.
Which means the banks will actually be busier because their customers will have more money passing through their accounts and likewise businesses and bankes like everyone else will be charging at a profit for their services. They will make much less
from interest but much more from ordinary charges.
Their liquid capital and savings trusted to them will be able to be loaned at the market rate of interest, which I suspect would tend to be lower than usual under the new system.
The National Dividend will be supplied to the banks whom hold the accounts of the recipients and likewise the reverse tax supplied to businesses will go the to their banks from the
Credit Authority which is autonomous from Govt so they cant abuse it. Naturally the operation of the Authority would open to scrutiny by Business interests, the media, political parties, unions, farmers etc. No one is going to waltz Matida out the backdoor and get away with it. Countries already have a Reserve Bank
which acts as a mother-authority bank which controls the volumn of money created by banks via interest rates.
A change in the nature of money system will likely mean some existing functions may become redundant and new ones replace them.
I cant envisage where a big buraeucracy would come into it, certainly less than running gold in parallel would take. The computer programming will certain have a big change, but the keys will be the same size and only need two hands of one person to operate as now.

If you received a dividend DonQ which say was the equivalent of two days pay, you could afford to enjoy the liesure time which we should all have from the technological advances society has made to save us working so hard. If work was the key to heaven then scientists and inventer are the devils agents. Thats how twisted up modern thinking is regards the exoisting systems overseen by {Professors at universites!!!!!!!!
Think of the time you could spend and travel to interesting places to hand out pamphletes.
People could afford to take shorter weeks leaving opening for under employed people to take on a couple of days and then we would see most people getting their share of the liesure time
they are presently cheated out of. No more working overtime for nothing to make it hard for the boss to lay you off. The un-employed could find a day or so instead of using up all the leisure time due to everyone else by sitting around.
NO one gets taxed to pay people to sit at home and squader everyones elses leisure time which Professors at Harvard think is a good idea.
The standard response will be that it would means printing money like confetti. The present system has to keep expanding the money supply by creating money out of nothing in order to
ensure the past debt can be paid off, like an earoplane as I have
used as an illustration (used by the Late Prof John Hotson, so they are not all thick) it has to maitian speed (of expansion ) beyond a minimum otherwise it falls out of the sky (banking crash). Such situation would exist
ina non-debt money system. Money created gets cancelled along with the goods and services, it doesn have to be continually expanding. New money and new products for each economic cycle.
In this sytem if the public demand no reverse tax to junk food businesses it would have to be removed, their prices would be much higher incomparison with healthy fast foods.
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#3939 Bader

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Posted 20 September 2004 - 08:42 AM

The article on water use provides good grounds for the reduction of the earths population. All those who advocate it should
put their life where their mouth is.

I remember seeing cattle have a huge pee after eating a lot of grass, they also perspire. I also do both and when I cook I have to put the rangehood on to vent the steam, my stream is made of water so I recycle it. I dont burn my water and waste it.

It sure takes a lot of water to grow flesh. Nice try. Protoplasm is what 70 to 75% water, or was when I went to school. No surprise to me, try it one those who only read comics.
Im not going to feel guilty that people are starving because I am having meat as implied, because I only feel guilty about the global warming and the oceans rising faster as I accelerate my vehicle, but thanks to this ar-tickle I dont need to feel guilty
anymore because I am creating more water. ( the greens - not veges- cant have it both ways, eh what!)
I knew I had to be good for something, its takena while but I may have arrived.

They say the UN wants to impose a water tax on the world, could see a lot more of this. Pretty wet argument.
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#3940 donquijote

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Posted 20 September 2004 - 11:42 AM

<Michael M's style and approach will no doubt appeal to a lot of people, perhaps in part because he is a gentle alarmbell that doesnt jar people awake.

My concerns were the same as you: the investment in terror and the likelihood that he has over rated the Israeli dependance on Arab labour.>

Howdy Bader
Most likely, THAT is the case. But take it beyond that. Many people won't accept things unless a celebrity says so. And there you have it: MICHEL MOORE SAYS GENERAL STRIKE CAN BE THE ULTIMATE WEAPON AGAINST THE LION. Down the line it may useful to know. The lion got nukes, we got this. We are even.;)

<We've got it right DonQ,
1. Dont feed the lion which also must include dont be lead by the nose which feeds success to his practices. Instead be warned by the nose.
2. Strike: which is more practical in the practice of individuals voting with their feet. The more collectively they can do it simultaneously the better, but the voting ( a form of not-feeding)
can be done as individuals become aware and doesnt need large scale organising.
Strike includes counter-strike. If there is a strike on information we counter-strike the strike by feeding information being embargoed.
It doesnt have to be confrontational, in fact I prefer the by-passing method and geting on with what you want out of life rather than be put into a direct relationship/occupied away from what you should be doing.>

Exactly, do NOT feed the lion that threatens you. It would be stupid to do it.

<Do you make suggestions in your handouts about voting with ones feet and tell a friend? Thats democracy voting every day. Not voting once every four years. >

No I don't. I just present the stories and the solution proposed here. I'll try to fit it in there...

The ABC of handling a lion...
-DO NOT FEED THE LION (least of all with your own life)
-VOTE WITH YOUR FEET (if you don't want to feed him)
-NONVIOLENCE IS BETTER (the lion wants you to dress as a lion)
-NO LION NO PROBLEM! (do not accept the beast in your life)

You like it?;)

<Re Animal Farm etc. it wasnt intended as a putdown. Probably half the population need to be introduced to it. One should go with what one finds works.>

No book will ever make a big difference among the proles since they read little. I have a story in one paragraph that has the same moral as Animal Farm...

THE PIGS' REVOLUTION

(Characters in this story: lion #1, the USA; lion #2, the former USSR; and #3, the EU and others. The Little and the Big Pigs are always the same... The action takes place in Cuba.)

(This story shouldn't be taken too literally. However, it has its moral...)

Once upon a time there were some little pigs who decided to carry out a revolution and established a utopia called "socialism," in which everything was supposed to be shared equally. And, of course, soon enough they were attacked by some lions. Then it turned out that the Big Pigs (by now some of the pigs got big and fat) allied themselves with some other lions. They petted them and told the Little Pigs (these remained little due to lack of freedom and food) that these lions were indeed peace-loving creatures. And they even sent the Little Pigs into wars in order to free the other farms from the old lions and secure them for the newer ones. Down the road, these lions decided that the pigs ate too much and banded together with their former competitors, who only fed on juicy prey. The Big Pigs now chose the only lions left. They felt that they could hang on to power and keep living high on the hog if they struck a deal with the new lions: The Big Pigs get to feed their power appetite; the new lions get to fill their piggy banks thanks to cheap labor, and get to enjoy lions-only tourist attractions. The Little Pigs, in the meantime, receive promises: The Big Pigs tell them that if the put up with the new lions, they'll be safe from the old ones; the new lions tell them that if they work hard enough, they'll soon have plenty; and the old lions tell them that if they rebel, they'll get to live in a brand new pigsty called "democracy," just like before. And they lived happily ever after...

http://webspawner.co...rs/donquijote15
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