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#4061 Bader

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Posted 04 October 2004 - 08:24 AM

See, charity begins at home. Forget about stockmarkets going up and down when you live in Israel, they get about 3 and a half billion to run the place including funding the political parties and this year they have also got a $2.16 billion military grant. Grants dont get repaid.
If one dollar in ten they receive is used to bribe the politicians in the US they are on a roll to eternity, well until they run out of young Americans who can be mobilsed without DU sickness, but then Kerry will sweet talk the Nato lot to become good neighbours in bowls of their Roman Galley.
The obvious answer is for the poor in the US to claim they are Jews and get to where the money is disappearing.

Its NEPAD, the US is on its way to become Africa. Through Nepad
Africa is on its way to be like the US, the 1% that is. Little wonder the African leaders "see no other alternative".

The statistics established several years ago regards the free market dominated countries, which I have previously given, is that twenty percent are winning and the rest loosing and of the twenty percent 5% own most of the property/wealth producing property and the 15 % left of the top twenty would be their executive/management strata I guess.
The lower part of the eighty percent losing are dropping below the breadline and that line is slowly moving upwards. Perhaps it could be said that the social column is sinking downwards into poverty.

Recognise this that if democracy as febble as it is, were to continue the winners will become helpless given that 20% cannot hold out against 80%. But at the same time govts are becoming
slaves to IMF/Economic Region policy/Gloabl Trade agreements/
global environmental treaties etc so the eighty percent will become faces flatened up against the window on the outside.
Like the starving erchens in "Oliver" watching the glutins make pigs of themselves.

I nearly said he or she, DonQ given we dont really know.

Well it becomes more obvious that Moore is about Kerry's future not the US's future.
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#4062 Bader

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Posted 04 October 2004 - 08:40 AM

I was given a copy of an article by a Austrian scientist who argued the same line as Joe Vialls, that oil is being produced by natural forces/science within the bowls of the earth, which means
there is yet another hoax let loose on society.
It came from the Nexus site:

www.nexusmagazine.com


August-Sept issue. Article called "The Mysterious Origins of Oil"

by Siegfried E. Tischler, PhD.

He calls the current theory of oil formation "little more than an apodictic religious dogma".
"The voicing of any doubt as to its veracity is tantamount tp professional suicide for oil industry professionals; ridicule is dished out to other scientists....."

"In this way, academia is dumbed down, just like the general public is said to be too stupid to possibly be able to understand
"science". By telling everybody to mind their own business, academia is just as brutally dicided into mental cages as mankind in general."

THis was one of the posts I lost.
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#4063 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 04 October 2004 - 12:24 PM

Originally posted by Bader
Israel is a military fascist state. The Kibutz is a military model
owned by the state. Its still the jewish centralised thinking where the unit/structure rules over the indiviual. Its the essense of communism which they promoted more than any other people. Thus is isnt a true coop and to talk about them using the word coop interchangably merely puts people off the coop because as Woj pointed out its (kibutz) attracts people who are not inclind to make it one their own which the majority prefer.
Communal living was a fad in the seventies after the popularity of cannabis and protest and the onslaught of the sexual revolution
and thus to get away in agroup away from towns and the law
was attractive for some. I doubt any exist today and if they arent run militantly the hygine goes and then the people.
Kibutz is an alternative lifestyle and to share the same tv is great if you go into the tv room at 2 in the morning so you dont have to fight over the channel.
The lion takes the profit off the top but as an alternative lifestyle its easier to pretent that the lion doesnt exist.
What was it we got posted a few months back, the Sephardic kibutz profits go to the state and the rest to the Ashkenazi elite.
No lion no problem.



Kibbutz is not socialism;
I saw in the past, an English movie which presented life of old people in condemned houses. They were very miserable so when they were moved to sterile, modern places they were expected to be happy in the new regulated life . But they were not and they left . They don
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#4064 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 04 October 2004 - 12:40 PM

Originally posted by donquijote
Few sheep are convinced sheep. They use camouflage too and fake to be sheep. Most are there until the right time comes. They must also be assured that no new lion awaits them.

Once upon a time there was a Black Sheep who was rejected by her sisters the white sheep... One day though a friendly lion approached her and told her: "Why don't you jump outside the fence where the grass is greener?" She, suspecting foul play, said: "You would eat me." The Lion, insisting, said: "You look so skinny, that you wouldn't make a bite for me." Then the Black Sheep, remembering how how hungry her sisters kept her, and realizing the logic of the friendly lion, jumped to the other side...

And it was this way that she grew beautiful and plumpy. Then the Lion approached her again. "I bet you your sisters wouldn't recognize you by now," he said. "They would die of envy," he added.

Her sisters, upon seeing her, having turned into the best looking sheep they've ever seen, and realizing how friendly the Lion really was, jumped themselves to the other side. And it was said that they themselves became beautiful and plumpy. In fact it was almost Paradise if it wasn't for the fact that one disappeared now and then...


The best illustration for this sheep story is history of the treason of Polish Solidarity with decoration of Walesa Nobel praise, Polish Pope, etc
ended with reality of 20% of unemployment, and disgrace
of participation of Polish soldiers in Afghanistan, Kuwait, Cambodia, Yugoslavia Iraq and only Polish-speaking government.
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#4065 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 04 October 2004 - 12:54 PM

Originally posted by Bader
See, charity begins at home. Forget about stockmarkets going up and down when you live in Israel, they get about 3 and a half billion to run the place including funding the political parties and this year they have also got a $2.16 billion military grant. Grants dont get repaid.
If one dollar in ten they receive is used to bribe the politicians in the US they are on a roll to eternity, well until they run out of young Americans who can be mobilsed without DU sickness, but then Kerry will sweet talk the Nato lot to become good neighbours in bowls of their Roman Galley.
The obvious answer is for the poor in the US to claim they are Jews and get to where the money is disappearing.

Its NEPAD, the US is on its way to become Africa. Through Nepad
Africa is on its way to be like the US, the 1% that is. Little wonder the African leaders "see no other alternative".


Well it becomes more obvious that Moore is about Kerry's future not the US's future.






And Michael Moor admitted it himself;

*Please, put aside whatever keeps you from jumping in to do the necessary work to remove George W. Bush from office. This can only be accomplished when you, right now, stop reading this letter and make that call (or click that mouse) to get involved.

Thanks so much...

Michael Moore*
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#4066 donquijote

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Posted 04 October 2004 - 08:00 PM

<See, charity begins at home. Forget about stockmarkets going up and down when you live in Israel, they get about 3 and a half billion to run the place including funding the political parties and this year they have also got a $2.16 billion military grant. Grants dont get repaid.
If one dollar in ten they receive is used to bribe the politicians in the US they are on a roll to eternity, well until they run out of young Americans who can be mobilsed without DU sickness, but then Kerry will sweet talk the Nato lot to become good neighbours in bowls of their Roman Galley.
The obvious answer is for the poor in the US to claim they are Jews and get to where the money is disappearing.>

Hey, good idea!!!;)

Well, and who's gonna pay for them?:confused:

<Its NEPAD, the US is on its way to become Africa. Through Nepad
Africa is on its way to be like the US, the 1% that is. Little wonder the African leaders "see no other alternative".>

Exactly, could they see better? Well, maybe it'll cost them their job. They better turn a blind eye...;)

<The statistics established several years ago regards the free market dominated countries, which I have previously given, is that twenty percent are winning and the rest loosing and of the twenty percent 5% own most of the property/wealth producing property and the 15 % left of the top twenty would be their executive/management strata I guess.
The lower part of the eighty percent losing are dropping below the breadline and that line is slowly moving upwards. Perhaps it could be said that the social column is sinking downwards into poverty.>

The article is very good but I left out some interesting facts...

'Nepad admits that structural adjustment programmes (SAPs) paid "inadequate attention to the provision of social services." African governments knew, in advance, that SAPs would lead to the diminishing of social services to the people. The IMF was adamant in its demand that, in return for accepting its money, it expected governments to cut down on budget deficits, which meant, in practical terms, expenses for things like health and education. In recognition of this, governments were then advised to set aside a "social fund" to cushion the effects of SAPs.

In none of the countries in Africa that accepted SAPs did the social fund prove adequate to fill the social gap that the SAPs created. Nepad
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#4067 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 04 October 2004 - 08:55 PM

Originally posted by donquijote
"Anyway, I'm sure places like Africa or Central America can benefit most from the Banana Revolution as these coops will secure their livelihood.
In the process, the government of South Africa must create a climate of confidence (above all, the ability of the investor to externalise his profits and eventually the capital value of his assets) so that an investor is induced to come to South Africa rather than to, say, Vietnam or Chile or Rumania (because capital is global, and must be lured with attractive terms to come to Africa, so say our leaders.)



I understand that ones doesn
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#4068 Bader

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Posted 05 October 2004 - 12:05 AM

There are still communist parties in the elections in the countries that were communist Woj, if the majority of those living under the socialist govts considered themselves free why havent they
voted it back in?

The different stories relate to different factors that relate to "freedom". The old English couple may have lost the social life they had which meant more than a new building. The over-riding presumption in the west is that materialism is the all important thing in life (and they cant see that communism was also based on materialism) and thus to get a new home should have been appreciated. See how the state bureaucracy deems what people have need of and should be appreciated.
Now if in their working lives the system allowed them to financial
means to be independant and afford a home of soundness they didnt have to be moved out of they wouldnt have become dependant or over-ruled as to their welfare.

I have no doubt that the majority of people on Kibutzs also consider themselves free - a case of beauty in the eye of the beholder. There will always be people who wouldnt live anywhere than on a kibutz or in a socialist state just as some people would never consider living outside a city.
If a kibutz is legally the property of the state and thus take a
share of the profits its a socialist based enterprise.

I accept your point that even in socialism there is competition
between people to be the best or better, even better than the
non-socialists neighbours. The competition has been known to become very deadly too when it comes to getting control of power. It is a natural thing for an individual to want to be the best at what they feel thay have ability at and thus when the state limits that they start to feel they are not free.
THen just think of the variety of way an individual can become
intuitive, inspired etc. A socialist state is more limiting in more ways. IN the west it has mainly been financial restraints but then the means of earning extra money and save is also greater.
So freedom needs can vary according to the individuals desire to be.
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#4069 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 05 October 2004 - 10:09 AM

Originally posted by Bader
There are still communist parties in the elections in the countries that were communist Woj, if the majority of those living under the socialist govts considered themselves free why havent they
voted it back in?



Polish has never voted for capitalism.:)
It just went to country as the rats on the American continent.

In contrary ; the Solidarity movement was more communist than socialist Poland before 1980.
Poland for sure didn
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#4070 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 05 October 2004 - 11:20 AM

Originally posted by Bader
So freedom needs can vary according to the individuals desire to be.



The biggest victims of WWII were Gipsy who have no money to buy life.
Only a few survive.and their fate was general concern.
Gipsy received a new apartments ,work; they were paid when they came , free health care regardless they work or not.
So it was horror for city people to see them outside their building and celebrating at the fire. Fire was made of wooden floor, doors, and all things taken from their flats.
After ashes they went away.
Freedom has many names.
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#4071 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 05 October 2004 - 12:04 PM

Nobel physics prize ; on the strong force acting between quarks inside the proton and the neutron within an atomic nucleus helps explain an everyday phenomenon like a coin spinning on a table.
Its (the coin's) movements are in fact determined by the fundamental forces between the basic building blocks -- protons, neutrons, electrons, the Academy said.
A model of how the universe was born, how it works and how it will ultimately die
http://www.reuters.com/

The Harvard-educated lawyer Surakiart Sathirathai, 46, Thailand's foreign minister is US dream for a candidate to replace Annan.
http://story.news.ya..._re_as/un_chief

Since on now the obscurity walks in pair
Billionaire George Soros is handing greater control of his $12.8 billion money management firm to his sons, Robert and Jonathan.

The United States helped train and arm rebels from west Sudan who rose up against the Sudanese government last year, "Who else than the United States is behind this ... They took rebels to Eritrea, and set up training camps for them, spent money on them, armed them and gave them Thuraya mobiles (telephones) to speak between anywhere in the world," Bashir told Egypt's Al-Ahram daily when asked about the involvement of foreign powers in Darfur.
http://story.news.ya...c&e=14&ncid=574
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#4072 donquijote

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Posted 06 October 2004 - 01:20 AM

"Politicians must live in the worst area they represent."

Howdy guys
I just added this statement to the list of proposals. Would you agree that it would be an important step?;)
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#4073 donquijote

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Posted 06 October 2004 - 02:05 AM

<I have no doubt that the majority of people on Kibutzs also consider themselves free - a case of beauty in the eye of the beholder. There will always be people who wouldnt live anywhere than on a kibutz or in a socialist state just as some people would never consider living outside a city.
If a kibutz is legally the property of the state and thus take a
share of the profits its a socialist based enterprise.

I accept your point that even in socialism there is competition
between people to be the best or better, even better than the
non-socialists neighbours. The competition has been known to become very deadly too when it comes to getting control of power. It is a natural thing for an individual to want to be the best at what they feel thay have ability at and thus when the state limits that they start to feel they are not free.
THen just think of the variety of way an individual can become
intuitive, inspired etc. A socialist state is more limiting in more ways. IN the west it has mainly been financial restraints but then the means of earning extra money and save is also greater.
So freedom needs can vary according to the individuals desire to be. >

I liked that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder," which begs the question, Whose beauty is better? Well, NONE, but a combination of them would satisfy the most people. I'll explain: 30% are for kibbutz, 40% for socialism, and 25% for capitalism... What if we provided for the three within one society. What do we got? 30+40+25=95%. Which means a whopping 95% would be satisfied, right? Then we have cantons of the three types, and people walk with their feet among them? How about this type of ECONOMIC DEMOCRACY?

No more "beauty is in the eye of the lion." We need "beauty is in the eye of the majority.":cool:
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#4074 donquijote

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Posted 06 October 2004 - 02:28 AM

He's well informed and uses the whip on the lion. I guess he's on our side...;)

Shooting the Messenger Doesn't Discredit the Message
The Real Lt. Col. Burkett - in His Own Words to BBC Television
by Greg Palast

Tuesday October 5, 2004

When Dan Rather went down for airing a document he couldn't source, he
did the courageous thing: blamed someone else.

In this case, Rather and CBS loaded their corporate guilt on a guy
you've probably never heard of before, rancher Bill Burkett of Abilene, a
retired Lieutenant Colonel from the Texas Air National Guard.

CBS did a no-no -- used a document on air without fully checking out
its source. No excuses. Shouldn't have done it. They got the document
from Burkett.

Once CBS hung out its source and painted a target on him, Rove-ing
gangs of media hit men finished him off. Burkett's an evidence
"fabricator," "Bush-hater," and even, suggests William Safire in the New York
Times as he fantasizes a dark left-wing conspiracy, a felon ready for hard
time.

Let me tell you about this Burkett "criminal." I met him while filming
for BBC's Television documentary, "Bush Family Fortunes." Better than
that, I'm posting a transcript of our hour-and-a-half interview.

Burkett a 'Bush-hater'? "George W. Bush was an excellent pilot,"
Burkett told me, "He had the right leadership skills, he had the 'Top Gun'
approach."

But I didn't go interview Burkett to chat about our President's days
when he flew high. He has an important story to tell which has not one
damn thing to do with a memo by some Lt. Col. Killian. It has to do
with a phone call and a shredder.

Burkett, a top advisor to Major General Daniel James at the Air Guard,
was working at Camp Mabry with Major General James when a call came in
from Joe Allbaugh, the Chief of Staff to then-Governor George W. Bush.
Bush was about to get a political polishing up for his White House run,
with a ghost-written autobiography, which would include his heroic
years during the war in Vietnam. Allbaugh, according to Burkett, stated
that Bush political operatives Karen Hughes and Dan Bartlett would be
dropping by the Air Guard offices to look at the war record and wanted to,
"make sure there's nothing in there that'll embarrass the Governor."

According to Burkett, the General and his minions who work for the
Governor, not the US Air Force, took this as an unsubtle hint from the boss
to purge the record. Lt. Col. Burkett, both curious and disturbed by
the call, wondered how his fellow comrades-in-arms would respond. His
answer was in the trash-to-be-shredded bin: George Bush's military pay
records. "I saw what are called LES (Leave and Earnings Statements)
which are pay documents. I saw Retirement Points documents and other
administrative information."

He did not see their content, only Bush's name, and therefore cannot
answer the 64 million dollar question: Did those records, now "missing,"
indicate that our President went AWOL while others ended up on the
Black Wall?

That's Burkett's story and it's in the BBC film. Watch the film, read
the transcript, and judge for yourself. I think you'll find in Burkett
a straight shooter, telling a piece of the larger draft-dodge story
which mounting evidence corroborates.

So what about that "Killian" document? We don't have it in the BBC
film - we couldn't source it so we wouldn't use it. Burkett passed it on
from a third party, obviously someone still in the Guard or fearful of
Bush Family retribution. Now why would they imagine that?

Under pressure, Burkett gave CBS a false name to cover for the
whistleblower. Burkett should not have done that. It is inexcusable. Period.
Yet, that does not tell us the document was fabricated. It was the job
of CBS to follow up -- they are the journalists.

And it is also the President's job. Safire in the Times, in charging
that Burkett faked the document, demanded the military open a criminal
investigation. Darn right they should. They haven't. Why not? Maybe
they don't want to check into this 'fake' document because maybe it's
not fake.

An investigation should begin with questions for the President. After
all, he can clear up the matter lickety-split.

"Mr. President, did you or did you not ask your commander Lt. Col.
Killian how you could shirk your duty to show up?"

"Mr. President, did you or did you not refuse a direct order to take a
medical exam and pee into a jar?" (The record is solid on the evidence
of refusing that order, Mr. Top Gun -- you were stripped of your flight
wings.)

"Mr. President, did Texas Lt. Governor Ben Barnes make any calls to get
you out of 'Nam and into the Air Guard? Yes or no?"

See Dan, that's how it should be done. It wasn't Burkett's job to
verify the evidence, it was the job of Dan and the President.

It is for the President, not Bill Burkett, to answer the question, "Did
your daddy the congressman vote to send other men's sons to Vietnam
while pulling the strings to keep you cozy and safe? Yes or no, Mr.
President, yes or no?"
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#4075 donquijote

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Posted 06 October 2004 - 02:33 AM

I have this separate debate with Koti using more humor than here. But in the end it's the same thing...

Originally posted by koti
Cats got 9 lives.;)



Well, I never meant to kill the cat. It was only a password. It was meant for the other cats out there...

At 3 o'clock in the morning the cats get together to plan the rebellion against the landlord. The dogs bark, but the owner is drunk. "Animal Ghetto" is the name of the game. Shhhh, pigs will not be invited, only little animals. Rats, whose side are they, will they side with their former enemies, the cats? And the dogs, should we invite the dogs?;)
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#4076 donquijote

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Posted 06 October 2004 - 02:43 AM

Originally posted by koti
Now that don't seem to bad in my eyes.;)


I'm glad. Landlord is no good. He treats the dogs good, and leaves the scraps for the rats, but he's after the rebellious cats. He wants them to stay home, and they want to be free. Even worse, every day he drinks with the money of the little animals. And the cats are trying to convince them to join them in freedom.

What should the little animals do?;)
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#4077 donquijote

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Posted 06 October 2004 - 02:48 AM

Originally posted by woj1@cyberonic.
Polish has never voted for capitalism.:)
It just went to country as the rats on the American continent.

In contrary ; the Solidarity movement was more communist than socialist Poland before 1980.
Poland for sure didn-t want to have Russian on Polish land and was trapped in NATO *security*.
As a matter of fact Polish vote all the time socialists and when they win, miracle transformation happenes and every new government becomes capitalist.
People movement is not organized as the Solidarity by CIA , church etc.
People just confused and lost.
Recently I saw the documents of Walesa of Solidarity time ;
it is very happy time with beautiful performances of Joan Baez.

But who was invited on anniversary last year to Poland? Margaret Thatcher.
Can be better symbol of change; between what people desire n Poland and what they get?:confused:



You didn't get the Pope too? That would have been nice...;)

How about Michael Jackson?
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#4078 Bader

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Posted 06 October 2004 - 05:54 AM

Anglo-Saxon Warrier Queen!

Too bad to missed her Woj.
There's your evidence that the banksters own the "left" and "right", in Poland mind you the two main parties in the US are just as transparent.
The Borrower is servant to the Lender.

".... a wopping 95% would be satisfied, right?"

Yeh and the 5% missing are those who own most of the property
who are already satisfied.
Choices would change if the 'water well' represented economic democracy because the whole socio-economic environment would change for the better.
People now working longer hours even for nothing while doing overtime will feel free when that stops because they dont need to.
When leisure time is shared out instead of giving it to the unemployed people will feel a whole lot freer enjoying re-creation
instead of working to pay taxes and interest.

"..he had the right leadership-kills, the Top Goy approach."

Its a matter of trust. Bush will be where ever he feels doG wants him to be. Profits are never accepted in their own society.
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#4079 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 06 October 2004 - 12:09 PM

Originally posted by donquijote
You didn't get the Pope too? That would have been nice...;)




After Pope meeting and the blessing the Pakistani Military Junta and Bush and Clinton and rejection the visit of Polish patriot , the Solidarity priest Jankowski I suspect that rumor that pope mother really was not Emilia Kaczynska but Emily Katz, might not be completely out of touch.
Vatican kepts in secret their investments.
Maybe it is Bader
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#4080 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 06 October 2004 - 12:59 PM

Originally posted by donquijote
<I have no doubt that the majority of people on Kibutzs also consider themselves free .

I accept your point that even in socialism there is competition
between people to be the best. The competition has been known to become very deadly too when it comes to getting control of power.

I liked that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder," which begs the question, Whose beauty is better? Well, NONE, but a combination of them would satisfy the most people. I'll explain: 30% are for kibbutz, 40% for socialism, and 25% for capitalism... What if we provided for the three within one society. What do we got? 30+40+25=95%. Which means a whopping 95% would be satisfied, right?



Wrong.
Beauty isn't important in closed cage.
Arabs kibbutz wouldn
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