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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#4301 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 02:38 PM

Originally posted by Bader
The Throne of David:
The royal chair and the High Priests chair are not the same.
Allegedly the Israelis are constructing a Third Temple to be assembled on the appropriate site later.
With weapons of science earthquakes can be made to order and the temple mount area already unstable could be 'restructured'
quite 'innocently' making way for a new structure.
The Vatican is a state as much as any country. There is no other
until Jerusalem is made an international city and I cant see how that can happen until there is a Palestinian state that will sanction it so there is no dispute then or in the future, because it will be promoted in the image of a city of peace. The Palestinians outside Jordan would not accept Jordan making that decision on their behalf. The reversal by Sharon accepting what he was elected to oppose shows it time is near. He is just doing as he is told just like G Bush.
The worlds religions wouldnt unit in the Vatican but they will in Jerusalem. So the zionists may start to learn soon if not already that they have merely been used to do the dirty work and after that they just might be in the way. Their goals anyway regarding the Middle east and central Asia pre-existed by a bigger and more powerful bunch of schemers.

The interest re Germany was the number of countries in suspension or division. LIke it was all in anticipation of a new
(one)world order, just like original Babylon was prior to its fragmentation .This is why the Pope will head the world church because it has a stronger representation and the Babylonian title Pontifex Maximus. The re-converging of scattered ancient babylon is to receive the anti-christ and Jesus said a lot of believers would be decieved.



15 anniversary German Wall Fell was not celebrated in Western Media yesterday. This is anniversary of failure of Western manipulation. Joined Bonn , East Berlin Germany is not US friend but is skilful competitor.
When US used Germany in US war against Yugoslavia ( in contrary an international war) , then US opens the Germany military door to starts to do business for itself, and it is not on US calls any more.
Fifteen years since the fall of the Berlin Wall on Nov. 9, 1989 the communist state is enjoying a renaissance;' a nostalgia for its social safety nets, its products and aspirations of bettering the West.
Disillusionment among former East Germans has fused with a fashion for all things 1970s and retro, elevating the lost country the cult status.
"People's memories filter out what was negative; rosy memories have brought many old eastern products back from the brink.
WELCOME COMEBACKS
Unemployment was virtually unknown in the German Democratic Republic (GDR); today it stands at 18.7 percent. Nearly 2 million people have packed up and left the East since the Wall fell -- many because they couldn't find work.

Little wonder that in surveys, one in five Germans now wishes the Wall were back.
even East German Cola is fashionable."
intercepts from http://story.news.ya...ermany_wall_dc.
US organized and promoted unification turned against US and it is light for others countries of Eastern Europe.
Next week Ukraine election is most important event in EuroAsia. I hope it will go only for Slavs gain.

As a atheist , I have only book knowledge about Christian prophecies. My wisdom comes from * The Late Great Planet Earth by Hal Lindsey with C.C. Carison. I don
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#4302 donquijote

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 03:19 PM

Well, we must evolve and the organization is growing and even getting some big names, or better the children of "big names." You must remember Che Guevara, right?;)

Bader, we have put forth so many arguments against the lion that there's hardly any use in accusing him any further--other than perhaps "letting it out"...

Well, it's hunting season...:cool:

LETTER OF SUPPORT OF CANEK, GRANDSON OF CHE GUEVARA

Dear Anti-lion friends...
Anarchism unites us, it makes us understand what we confront and it gives us the freedom necessary to do it... A hug to all anti-capitalists (be it state capitalism or market capitalism, which is the same), and to all "guaraperos," "areperos," "jalapenos," and "bananeros" [see http://webspawner.co...rs/donquijote40]... because I'm one of yours and we are the same thing, the same essence and the same humanity, though sometimes denied...

Regards
Canek

Maybe his son is as brave as Che to confront the lion, but having learned of what happened to his grandfather, he prefers to fight against him as a monkey, not dressed as a lion...

THE LAW OF THE JUNGLE

Once upon a time, in the deep jungle, lived a Lion and a Monkey... One day the Monkey, tired of the Lion always taking the LION'S SHARE, and seeing that such injustice represented a danger to all the species of the jungle, demanded JUSTICE... The Lion, yawning and stretching, said, "You would have to have paws and sharp teeth..." Then the Monkey, who was very clever, devised a plan: He would go to the costume store, and look like a lion...

When the Lion saw him, noticing that the new lion wasn't a match for him, and fearing COMPETITION, killed him on the spot --before the indifferent look of the little animals of the jungle... And that's how the Law of the Jungle was re-established one more time...

NOTE: Other monkeys survived him...

(more stories: http://committed.to/justiceforpeace)

***

The following dialog involves our representative in Italy, Alberto, and talks about a third person in our organization, but it pretty much answers our posture to ANARCHISM, the word used by Canek...

<However he writes (and talks, most likely), as you too write, too much about anarchism, 'el Che', ideology. And, above all, about not having ANY order, any PRINCIPLE, any RULE, any RESPONSIBLE, PERSON-IN CHARGE. Which is exaclty the bloody, ignoble "JUNKLE" we fight and want to go beyond.>

Ciao Alberto
Anarchism presents very well WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE WORLD (the lion and the jungle), but IT'S WEAK IN SOLUTIONS, except for the coop. Sure a word without lion would be immensely better, but this is not going to be IMPOSED on all. Some will remain in the lion system--and it's important that we allow that--and others would have the option to escape it. The COOP would be one of such mechanisms of escape. "It's the free man in the free group."

We should set to make the world a "perfect 10 but a passable 7"... Maybe we are in a 2 or 3 at the most now. And I don't say a 10, because that way we can work toward perfection, certainly through education. We should progress slowly, but always evolve...

But Anarchism is the closest thing we got to real jungle--as someone pointed out--not savannah (where the lions rule). In the deep jungle--hey I ain't talking about America--there's a lot of cooperation as well as competition, but if you don't have to look over your shoulder you should have a much easier life. That's where we aim...

Law of the Jungle
by Eric Jackson

On Christmas morning, which I spent at my sister's house, I woke up, pulled on some clothes, and went into the living room. "Stand still," my brother said.
Which I did. He quickly brushed a scorpion off the back side of my pants.
And there you have it, the Law of the Jungle. People who help one another have the advantage over tribes of extreme individualists.

The Social Darwinists' "survival of the fittest" among "rugged individuals" was somewhere along the line grafted onto the concept of the way that jungles are supposed to work, but it ain't necessarily so. ???

Biologists at Barro Colorado Island and other tropical forest research sites have proven and are continuing to demonstrate in new ways that the Law of the Jungle is both competition and cooperation, a reality that includes symbiosis as well as parasitism, with much more social organization than has traditionally been acknowledged in popular culture.

It wouldn't be such a horrible thing to go back to the Law of the Jungle, were it the real one and not an ideological parody. Let us all brush the scorpions off of one another's pants, and help those around us in these difficult economic times. It's the evolutionarily advanced thing to do.
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#4303 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 03:30 PM

Originally posted by Bader
Checkout these two articles Woj:

www.safehaven.com/article-2102.htm



China is the world's #3 consumer of oil behind the United States and Japan. We can confidently predict that China will sooner or later overtake both nations and become the world's leading importer of oil, bringing it into conflict with the developed world.
China has already invested billions of dollars into pipeline projects in Central Asia and the Middle East and has strengthened its relationships with governments from energy-rich states. For example, China is Sudan's largest trading partner and China National Petroleum Corporation has a 40% stake in the international consortium extracting oil in Sudan. China has threatened to veto a resolution that would consider U.N. sanctions against Sudan's oil industry.
As competition for diminishing oil resources threatens U.S. dollar hegemony over world oil transactions, expect to see increased Chinese political and military presence in the Middle East. China's next move could come in the form of massive dollar devaluation when they unload their supply of accumulated greenbacks. China just recently released six billion of those greenbacks for its purchase of Noranda Mining - Canada's biggest mining company. We predict that in the near future, Saudi princes will decide to denominate some of their oil transactions in Yuan (or at least something other than dollars) and invest their profits into shares of China Mobile or PetroChina instead of Citigroup.

But;

Taiwan intends to build Asia's largest missile base.
Taiwan's "Defense Ministry", will deploy "Patriot III" missile system purchased from the United States also , Large bunker suspected to be a nuclear test ground
The arms research has drawn close attention from the United States due to Taiwan authority's frequent remarks of developing offensive arms against the mainland.
It is suspected the bunker is built for "special purpose", which may be related to Taiwan's alleged research of medium-range missiles and cruise missile, or even nuclear weapons. .
A "Space Center Houston" in Taiwan
is no less than a "Space Center Houston" in a smaller scale and closely guarding against intelligence satellites of world countries . Intercepts from; http://www.xinhuanet...glish/index.htm

I believe that US is secret builder of Asia's largest missile base in Taiwan, so it balances China power and it lets Russia sleep soundly. :)
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#4304 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 03:58 PM

WSJ.com Editors Nov-8 4:07 pm
Should Arlen Specter be chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee?


Yes 1048 votes (43%)
No 1382 votes (57%)
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#4305 donquijote

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 04:55 PM

Howdy again Alberto
I read Canek's self-interview and it was good, though Marxism doesn't explain his "anarchism"... Perhaps being "anti-lion" is the best way of being anarchist without being a radical or even knowing the word, but we can learn more from Kropotkin and Orwell than from Marx.

"Animal Farm" is our best warning against Marxist revolutions, for some of the pigs are better than others. Here you have a contrast between Marxism and Orwell's Animalism...
http://www.geocities...2074/orwell.htm
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#4306 donquijote

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 06:20 PM

I think I can relate to this, either in "communism" or "democracy"...

"The revolution gave birth to a bourgeoisie, a repressive apparatus intended
to protect itself from the people and a bureaucracy that distanced itself
from
the people..."

By the people, for the people...:confused:

This is the full text that came out in Spanish...

CUBAN REVOLUTION IS NEITHER DEMOCRATIC NOR COMMUNIST, SAYS GRANDSON OF CHE

Mexico City, Oct. 17 (EFE) - The revolution in Cuba "was not democratic" and
neither is it communist now, "but rather a vulgar State capitalism also
called
'Fidelismo,'" affirmed the grandson of Ernesto "Che" Guevara, Canek Sanchez
Guevara.

In a letter and a "self-interview" that is being published today in the
Mexican weekly "Proceso," Canek harshly criticized the "messianism" of Fidel
Castro
and the change of direction he made for the revolution, transforming himself
from "the young revolutionary to the elderly tyrant" who "falsified" an ideal.

"The revolution gave birth to a bourgeoisie, a repressive apparatus intended
to protect itself from the people and a bureaucracy that distanced itself
from
the people. But above all it was anti-democratic due to the religious
messianism of its leader," he indicated.

In his writings, Canek strips bare, one by one, the reasons why the Cuban
revolution distanced itself from its original purpose, such as "the
criminalization of being different" by means of the "persecution of
homosexuals, hippies,
freethinkers, anarchist and poets" and the installation of a "socialist
bourgeoisie... pretending to be proletarian."

"The revolution died years ago in Cuba: it had to be murdered by those who
invoked it to keep it from turning against them, it had to be
institutionalized
and smothered by its own bureaucracy, by corruption, by nepotism and by the
verticality of that famous organization: the 'revolutionary' Cuban state," he
said.

In addition, he didn't hesitate to brand the Castro regime as a dictatorship
and accused Castro of betraying the initial ideals of the revolution.

"In effect, Fidel liberated Cuba from Batista's gangster dictatorship, but
with his obstinate permanence in power he only achieved a reversal, turning
himself into a dictator," he asserted.

"All of my criticism of Fidel Castro begins with his distancing himself from
libertarian ideals, from the treason committed against the people of Cuba and
the fearful surveillance established to keep the State predominant over its
'people,'" he added.

The eldest grandchild of Che Guevara stated that the repression that exists
in the island, with its "perpetual surveillance over individuals" and "the
prohibition of associations that might exist at the margin of the State" is
nothing but "a vulgar State capitalism" that, according to him, will die with
Fidel.

"Let's be honest, a young rebel like Fidel Castro used to be would be
immediately executed in today's Cuba, not condemned to exile," he stated.

[Canek] Sanchez Guevara ended by saying that Marxism in Cuba is "only a
scholarly classification" and that it is from a Marxist perspective that "one
can
see the noisy collapse of a falsified ideal."

http://legalminds.lp...t/frm01434.html
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#4307 Bader

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 06:22 PM

The anarchism that prevails is the one promoted by the
establishment- dialectic materialim.

Che Guevara was one of many, of all shades, ML King, Mendalla
Arafat and then there are those of the right. All serving the
jungle. The guys on the left plucked scorpions off their mates and the same on the otherside.

Waking up isnt evolving.

The jungle as romantic as anyone including hloywood might make it look is still survival of the fittest and the fittest are going to reduce the population of the earth by a few billions and at this stage who can stop them?

East Germany wants its emplyment back. The Bankers will not give it to them. So there is a surplus of people and they will deal with that surplus.

Anarchism is an extreme version of Libertarianism and is not the answer. It elevates freedom but leaves society open to the bully
or the first sizable group that starts to bully.
Alberto see no solution. Alberto has no solution. The first step in problem solving is to corrstly identify the problem. That is the first big projext and the exposure of all known facts comes first-
let it all out. If people dont agree on the problem there is no solution, the first problem becomes division.
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#4308 donquijote

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 07:11 PM

Originally posted by Bader
The anarchism that prevails is the one promoted by the
establishment- dialectic materialim.

Che Guevara was one of many, of all shades, ML King, Mendalla
Arafat and then there are those of the right. All serving the
jungle. The guys on the left plucked scorpions off their mates and the same on the otherside.

Waking up isnt evolving.

The jungle as romantic as anyone including hloywood might make it look is still survival of the fittest and the fittest are going to reduce the population of the earth by a few billions and at this stage who can stop them?

East Germany wants its emplyment back. The Bankers will not give it to them. So there is a surplus of people and they will deal with that surplus.

Anarchism is an extreme version of Libertarianism and is not the answer. It elevates freedom but leaves society open to the bully
or the first sizable group that starts to bully.
Alberto see no solution. Alberto has no solution. The first step in problem solving is to corrstly identify the problem. That is the first big projext and the exposure of all known facts comes first-
let it all out. If people dont agree on the problem there is no solution, the first problem becomes division.



Howdy Bader
If the problem is division, then we have to concentrate on what we agree: THERE'S A LION. We all agree on that, you, Alberto, Canek, me... Now, we are talking about a "word," and Kropotkin was considered an anarchist... Why? Because he proposed COOPERATION. But living in a jungle (not savannah, controlled by the lion) would imply COOPERATION AMONG WEAK LITTLE ANIMALS TO BE STRONG. So there could be COOPERATION AMONG LITTLE ANIMALS and COMPETITION WITH PREDATORS, and these we better not deny. If we say, "Hey, it's going to be life in the herd," if may not be that interesting and it may take us unprepared for the dangers lurking out there--and in here. There's always going to be lions, but competition can tame them. And then there's need for a loose authority or WEAK LION so it never develops into deadly competition.

If, on the other hand, it develops into a STRONG LION, we depart from anarchism, and then we have again the problem we have in Israel...

Anarchism in the Kibbutz Movement
by Yaacov Oved
(originally appeared in Kibbutz Trends No.38, Summer 2000,
pg. 45)

The kibbutz movement in Israel is not a part of the
anarchist camp and its various streams. A number of its
central elements, such as its integral linkage to the Jewish
state and Zionism, its loyalty to the State of Israel, the
number of its members who join in the security forces and
the Israel Defense Force, and its activities and involvement
in political parties, all clearly set it apart from any past
or present anarchistic framework.

very interesting article...

http://www.google.co...nter.org&rnum=3

Now, you don't like the word "anarchism"--just like you don't like the word "humanism"? Well, we have another word: The Banana Revolution.;)

The problem is you don't like it either...:confused:

But hey, "what's in a word?":cool:
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#4309 donquijote

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 09:52 PM

Bader, this is the same thing you always say. The hungry lion must keep on growing--or be eaten...:confused:

Elites and neoliberal globalization

With some irony, the same ten years which have given rise to the Internet phenomenon have also ushered in the era of neoliberal globalization. While the Internet has facilitated democratic activism from below, neoliberalism has brought us an upsurge of corporate activism from on high. The global economy is a capitalist economy, and such an economy must keep growing, year after year, or else it collapses in a global depression. We don't need to subscribe to Marxist doctrine to know this--we can read about it every day in the financial pages. Corporations follow a law of the jungle: grow or be eaten. CEO's and politicians must deliver growth or they'll be out of a job. Unfortunately for capitalism, we happen to live in a finite world with finite resources. After two centuries of unprecedented growth and development, it becomes every year more difficult to squeeze out still more corporate profits than the year before.

http://64.4.30.250/c...4/10/20/9390286
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#4310 donquijote

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 11:09 PM

Originally posted by woj1@cyberonic.
Disillusionment among former East Germans has fused with a fashion for all things 1970s and retro, elevating the lost country the cult status.
"People's memories filter out what was negative; rosy memories have brought many old eastern products back from the brink.
WELCOME COMEBACKS
Unemployment was virtually unknown in the German Democratic Republic (GDR); today it stands at 18.7 percent. Nearly 2 million people have packed up and left the East since the Wall fell -- many because they couldn't find work.



That's because both capitalism and communism were based on a lie, or at least, a half truth. The people in Cuba probably crave for "democracy," as if it were true, though it might be better, at least for some...

But neither system encourages CHOICES, real choices. Only one choice--theirs--and if you don't like it, leave. As if it was easy. And then you have immigration, and people--the ones who suffer at the receiving end--ask "why?" Well, the reason is people have little room to be real free. Where is the freedom of East Germans to create another system different from the West? If the policies of COMPETITION of the West don't work for them, "the hell with it" and come up with a different ball game where COOPERATION is the game. Then maybe some West Germans would be willing to relocate. Nothing new, the Swiss have this policy of "voting with your feet" among cantons, but not out of need but out of economic democracy, which makes a big difference. And offering cooperatives as an option can enhance further REAL ECONOMIC DEMOCRACY. You are capitalist, go for it; you are socialist, there's a place for you. No MONOPOLISTIC LION on either side of the divide. No lion no problem! :cool:
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#4311 donquijote

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 11:27 PM

<Disillusionment among former East Germans has fused with a fashion
for all things 1970s and retro, elevating the lost country the cult
status.
"People's memories filter out what was negative; rosy memories have
brought many old eastern products back from the brink.
WELCOME COMEBACKS
Unemployment was virtually unknown in the German Democratic Republic
(GDR); today it stands at 18.7 percent. Nearly 2 million people have
packed up and left the East since the Wall fell -- many because they
couldn't find work.>

Howdy Woj
That's because both capitalism and communism were based on a lie, or
at least, a half truth. The people in Cuba probably crave for
"democracy," as if it were true, though it might be better, at least
for some...

But neither system encourages CHOICES, real choices. Only one
choice--theirs--and if you don't like it, leave. As if it was easy.
And then you have immigration, and people--the ones who suffer at the
receiving end--ask "why?" Well, the reason is people have little room
to be real free. Where is the freedom of East Germans to create
another system different from the West? If the policies of COMPETITION
of the West don't work for them, "the hell with it" and come up with a
different ball game where COOPERATION is the game. Then maybe some
West Germans would be willing to relocate. Nothing new, the Swiss have
this policy of "voting with your feet" among cantons, but not out of
need but out of economic democracy, which makes a big difference. And
offering cooperatives as an option can enhance further REAL ECONOMIC
DEMOCRACY. You are capitalist, go for it; you are socialist, there's a
place for you. No MONOPOLISTIC LION on either side of the divide. No
lion no problem!;)
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#4312 donquijote

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 12:19 AM

What's better, immigration or voting w/ your feet?

http://engforum.prav...threadid=104762
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#4313 Bader

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 08:13 AM

Howdy all:

Paradize betrayed, the Wall has gone and now the future. Nostalgia in East Germany probably comes from not having any idea about what could be done, so they look backwards to what the thought they knew, which is the rosy part as Woj has pointed out but back then they knew that life could be much better
because their relatives had it on the other side of the Wall.
If they knew what to do they would be looking forward not back.
Being conditioned to conform they wouldnt know what to do other than go back and conform to something they think was better. One might was well sit in a corner and **** ones thumb.
We are really betrayed arent we.
One of the reasons paradize is lost is because the 'deficit'
conditions of East G sapped too much out of the 'profit' side in the West. It would have created huge debt and now the bankers who own them are telling them how to run the economy and that means cut backs- rationalisation. With open boarders in the EU profits which can be made in Germany will not stay there to build up Germany if the Corp/investers/shareholders dont live there.
"elites and neoliberal globalisation"
as DonQ posted covers it- the Corps have to grove profit or be eatten, one can only grow fat if another dies because the
environment is finite. At the lower level one gets a big salary and another gets unemployment so the one in management can be paid more. The other workers work harder to keep their jobs and carry the short staffing.
Inflation helps to grow figure as well so they monitor it and control it.
More creative ways of growing figures on paper has to grow as well because the real economy is subject to limitations. ENRON got so creative they over-corrected and went in the ditch on the other side from the one they should have gone into.

Using the words 'anarchism' and 'humanism' may be a similar case
of going back to past thinking if we cant see clearly the way forward.
I prefer 'economic democracy', not new but I dont see it being used mainstream and it says something important and doesnt sound aged or leftist or Right etc. We donrt want people to presume any negative and vote with their feet needlessly.
Anarchism is anti-lion but what hapens after the lion is gone like the Wall. What next? I cant see how one can promote coops and use the word anarchism along with it as it looks like a
contradiction.
There is much we have discussed, some important stuff when Pliny was with us, which Alberto hasnt seen, so we have made more contribution to a solution than he is aware.
I am not saying we got division, I am saying that until members in the pool agree on language and the nature of the problem it become hard to unite (division being the lack of unitedness) or clarify a solution.
I dont agree with simplistics like 'cooperation' and 'competition'
as being the solution even though they are important. Like I agree good health is important for quality of life but a solution to modern society isnt 'good health' anymore than 'cooperation'.
We are not going to get into constitutions but that really is the basis upon what people should build a society but the philosophical issues upon which a constitution is built is a matter that one would start with. We have done so to a certain extent indirectly when we talk of a public-user-friendly-non monopolistic water well, havent we. This is more specific than a single word like anarchism which can frighten anyone away.
Philosophically I cant accept the tropical jungle jungle anymore than a savanah one. A jungle is a jungle.

What Canak describes happend to Cuba is much the same as the Soviet Union, is it not. The principles/philosophy etc it is all based on is wrong so it couldnt escape its 'genes'. This relates to the point I been saying above. Because it doesnt meet the test of time they 'go back' to aspects of capitalism to improve things, just like the nostalia thing. Unless one appreciates the genetic composition of the social 'organism' it will die and become an 'organisation' that will revert to self preservation by tyrany.
Thus Fidel is still alive but Cuba dead.
The US started out a free society-organism. Its now an
organisation going into tyrany to preserve/increase the power of the organisers.
The UN is working night and day to turn the world into an organisation.

I think it would be stretching it to think Kibbutz people are anarchists and I wouldnt expect that anti-state feelings would rate in the main motives people choise to live by Kibbutz.
I expect they are all sanctioned by the State. It may have served
a purpose in easier and quicker settlement of new lands and
also forms a basis for defence in the circumstances in the Middle East but putting that aside, it provides a degree of independance with dependance you can help control plus if they can provide
life supports it saves the State providing them and thus the lesser need for taxes.

AFter the Wall is finished Israelis will start to argue amongst themselves because they live in peace. They will get sick of disagreeing and develop nostagia for the good old days before the Wall when they were united because of the Palestinians!!!!
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#4314 donquijote

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 01:23 PM

OK, forget about Iraq, a desert jungle if you will... What's making your life difficult right here in the concrete jungle, particularly now that big bucks are being spent in Iraq? Crime, poverty, pollution, homelessness, littering, prostitution (maybe not;)), drug trafficking, police brutality...or all of the above? Well, I say: "It's a JUNGLE out there!"...

Reporting from the Jungle

You know, I just got up, and two cars got broken windows, and more in days before. And my car was stolen too elsewhere. But, of course, I KNOW why. It only confirms my theory. WE LIVE IN THE JUNGLE! The luxury high-rise for the lions next door has private garage, but we are left without protection. Not even the police bothers too much to stop suspicious people in the middle of the night, since it's natural to have these HOMELESS roaming around, surely a political decision away. And there are hundreds or perhaps thousands of them. Regrettably, I was nearly beat up by a policewoman for asking one homeless be removed! He had set up camp in the beautiful green area in front of my building leaving cardboards behind. Another used to get into my car (it was always open), grabbed whatever coins he found, and broke a few things. Like I say, the rats also benefit from the jungle--they get the scraps from the lions and prey on the little animals. Of course, blame the lion, for he's the only one that can change things--short of revolution...

Or perhaps we should blame too the indifferent people. I've given the flyers about the jungle to my neighbors...and THEY DO NOTHING--until they become their victims. Then they scream and move elsewhere. Always on the run, leaving the ghetto behind. It's like in the wild the little animals see with complacency when the lion is full--until tomorrow... Like Jorge Ramos, the Mexican journalist, says in his book 'To the Hunting of the Lion': "Hunt your lion before he eats you"...;)

http://committed.to/justiceforpeace
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#4315 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 02:19 PM

Originally posted by Bader
One of the reasons paradize is lost and now the bankers who own them are telling them how to run the economy and that means cut backs- rationalisation. With open boarders in the EU profits which can be made in Germany will not stay there to build up Germany if the Corp/investers/shareholders dont live there.
"elites and neoliberal globalisation"

I prefer 'economic democracy', not new but I dont see it being used mainstream and it says something important and doesnt sound aged or leftist or Right etc.
What Canak describes happend to Cuba is much the same as the Soviet Union, is it not. The principles/philosophy etc it is all based on is wrong so it couldnt escape its 'genes'. Unless one appreciates the genetic composition of the social 'organism' it will die and become an 'organisation' that will revert to self preservation by tyrany.

The UN is working night and day to turn the world into an organisation. AFter the Wall is finished Israelis will start to argue amongst themselves because they live in peace. They will get sick of disagreeing and develop nostagia for the good old days before the Wall when they were united because of the Palestinians!!!!




Is tolerance the new form of spreading of international terrorism? I think it is.
Democracy in cuckoo nest society is not welcome. Simply , democratization of the country is only the way of implementation of traitors. .
Democracy is impossible as long the cuckoo syndrome exists; when Albanians with US help raid the Kosovo, Albanian votes or referendum is only sad joke from democracy.
Israel votes relating Palestinians future is another one.
Same thing is also with planned election in Iraq.
One can not implement democracy in Cuba because dollar is high standing to Cuban pesos and for small amount of dollars American can buy election in Cuba.
Western corruption and interest prevent many countries from true democracy.
Communist is not a lie. Lenin rejects Tsar when he signed death verdict for Lenin brother life.
Of course tsar when ordered execution Lenin brother didn
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#4316 donquijote

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 02:24 PM

http://engforum.prav...694#post1130694
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#4317 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 02:25 PM

From: WSJ.com Editors Nov-9 4:28 pm


Should the Electoral College be abolished?

Yes; the nation's popular vote should determine the presidential winner.700 votes (36%)

No, but the way electors are chosen should be changed.
227 votes (12%)

No; it works fine the way it is. 1044 votes (53%) :)
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#4318 donquijote

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 04:26 PM

<Paradize betrayed, the Wall has gone and now the future. Nostalgia in East Germany probably comes from not having any idea about what could be done, so they look backwards to what the thought they knew, which is the rosy part as Woj has pointed out but back then they knew that life could be much better
because their relatives had it on the other side of the Wall.>

Good points.;)

<"elites and neoliberal globalisation"
as DonQ posted covers it- the Corps have to grove profit or be eatten, one can only grow fat if another dies because the
environment is finite. At the lower level one gets a big salary and another gets unemployment so the one in management can be paid more. The other workers work harder to keep their jobs and carry the short staffing.
Inflation helps to grow figure as well so they monitor it and control it.>

So THE JUNGLE IS THE PROBLEM. If forces the lions to be predators. Even them suffer the jungle. Hey, I hope we don't find any resistance from them in coming out of the jungle...;)

<Using the words 'anarchism' and 'humanism' may be a similar case
of going back to past thinking if we cant see clearly the way forward.>

You got a point here. Anarchism can scare off people but Humanism is hardly heard of, unless you are into religion and are told that God is more important than man, and that Humanism is paganism or something. But there's even a Christian Humanism...;)

Christian Humanism
General Information
The Roman Catholic Jacques Maritain tried to formulate a new Christian humanism based on the philosophy of Thomas Aquinas. The American Humanist Association, which grew out of the Unitarian movement, holds that human beings can satisfy religious needs from within, discarding the concept of God as inconsistent with advanced thought and human freedom. In recent years, fundamentalist Christian groups in the United States have declared their opposition to "secular humanism," an antireligious ideology that they believe pervades American society, including the major churches, and that they blame for its moral failings.

http://mb-soft.com/b...xn/chrishum.htm

<I prefer 'economic democracy', not new but I dont see it being used mainstream and it says something important and doesnt sound aged or leftist or Right etc. We donrt want people to presume any negative and vote with their feet needlessly.
Anarchism is anti-lion but what hapens after the lion is gone like the Wall. What next?>

True, what next, and I do like "economic democracy" (that's what it is), but it only talks about one dimension: the economic. I like the original Humanism...

Humanism
General Information
Humanism, an educational and philosophical outlook that emphasizes the personal worth of the individual and the central importance of human values as opposed to religious belief, developed in Europe during the Renaissance, influenced by the study of ancient Greek and Latin literature and philosophy. Humanism thus began as an educational program called the humanities, which inculcated those ancient secular values which were consistent with Christian teachings. The Renaissance humanists were often devout Christians, but they promoted secular values and a love of pagan antiquity.

< I cant see how one can promote coops and use the word anarchism along with it as it looks like a
contradiction.>

Coops and anarchism are NOT in contradiction, as anarchism rejects hierarchy, which is very much in line with the principle of "one man one vote" of the coop and above all because it makes the state largely unnecessary. Of course, you can live in a coop without ever knowing of anarchism, but we should not deny its roots...

"Anarchism has been written off time and again by politically-minded people as a quaint historical anachronism, irrelevant as the century turns. But the politicians themselves are living out the final sentence of George Orwell's Animal Farm, where the poor creatures out in the yard peered through the windows of the farmhouse, looking from pig to man and from man to pig, but found it impossible to say which was which.

In real life this leads to apathy and resignation as well as to the rise of demagogues and dictators. But if people had faith in their capacity to make decisions, it could be changed by an upsurge of popular self-organisation and inventiveness. Probably every generation has to learn this."
http://www.circlealp...ism_future.html

<There is much we have discussed, some important stuff when Pliny was with us, which Alberto hasnt seen, so we have made more contribution to a solution than he is aware.
I am not saying we got division, I am saying that until members in the pool agree on language and the nature of the problem it become hard to unite (division being the lack of unitedness) or clarify a solution.
I dont agree with simplistics like 'cooperation' and 'competition'
as being the solution even though they are important. Like I agree good health is important for quality of life but a solution to modern society isnt 'good health' anymore than 'cooperation'.
We are not going to get into constitutions but that really is the basis upon what people should build a society but the philosophical issues upon which a constitution is built is a matter that one would start with. We have done so to a certain extent indirectly when we talk of a public-user-friendly-non monopolistic water well, havent we. This is more specific than a single word like anarchism which can frighten anyone away.
Philosophically I cant accept the tropical jungle jungle anymore than a savanah one. A jungle is a jungle.>

I know, and don't like them. But we must make room for those who preach the law of the jungle on equal terms. Pliny was one of them.;)

But since we propose ECONOMIC DEMOCRACY there's room for both, right? I favor that both COOPERATION and COMPETITION are available to all. And I see the distinction as important. WE NEED BOTH.

<What Canak describes happend to Cuba is much the same as the Soviet Union, is it not. The principles/philosophy etc it is all based on is wrong so it couldnt escape its 'genes'. This relates to the point I been saying above. Because it doesnt meet the test of time they 'go back' to aspects of capitalism to improve things, just like the nostalia thing. Unless one appreciates the genetic composition of the social 'organism' it will die and become an 'organisation' that will revert to self preservation by tyrany.
Thus Fidel is still alive but Cuba dead.
The US started out a free society-organism. Its now an
organisation going into tyrany to preserve/increase the power of the organisers.
The UN is working night and day to turn the world into an organisation.>

The lion always rises from among the little animals. That's why cooperation is the natural choice of the little animals. It's the only defense they got.

Canek wasn't born to be a lion, and he was a rebel in Cuba as much as he's in the capitalist jungle of Mexico. We need people like him.;)

<I think it would be stretching it to think Kibbutz people are anarchists and I wouldnt expect that anti-state feelings would rate in the main motives people choise to live by Kibbutz.
I expect they are all sanctioned by the State. It may have served
a purpose in easier and quicker settlement of new lands and
also forms a basis for defence in the circumstances in the Middle East but putting that aside, it provides a degree of independance with dependance you can help control plus if they can provide
life supports it saves the State providing them and thus the lesser need for taxes.>

I'm pretty sure they reject the State whether consciously or not. They are free among equals, and they do cite they join because they don't have a lion boss in there. They must serve the army for probably they feel that only the State can guarantee them that lifestyle. If the Arabs also lived in kibbutz, I doubt they would be willing to fight them.

<AFter the Wall is finished Israelis will start to argue amongst themselves because they live in peace. They will get sick of disagreeing and develop nostagia for the good old days before the Wall when they were united because of the Palestinians!!!!>

That's true. The outside lion is always handy to the inside lion...;)
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#4319 donquijote

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 05:18 PM

<ALBatro <a.l.beretta@virgilio.it> wrote:

Yes, the best "outer" Anarchism - so not a so great part of it, let me write it - presents nearly all what's wrong and should be repaired progressively; fact is that, as in many other theories and practice, often the "cure" - as it was adopted - either lasted for so little time or was just worse than the "illness", it's weak in working, stable solutions, except from the economic Cooperativism. But even it it's not a simple formula to "plug & play", as I previously pointed out. It all depends from the total quality of the men and women who carry it on.
Do you remember, me too I pointed out that LIONS live and rule SAVANNAHS, not JUNGLES. But I like the word JUNGLE, because of people don't say 'The Law of the Savannah' and I could do the JUNK+JUNGLE=JUNKLE play-on-words>

Well, we can say in a real jungle (not dominated by the lion) there's room for competition but that the litte animals must cooperate in order to survive. If they are weaker they must organize (where it counts, in the economical). It makes sense, no? What would make the difference though between success and failure is the fact we will bring EXPERTS from the coops being proposed, and if some coops fail the lion will be waiting out there for them. And maybe we can play with that fear, or maybe the lion will be tamed. Not a bad outcome, no?;)

But I'd say the main difference b/ anarchism and us, is that they reject the lion altogether, while we offer CHOICES.

There's a movement in America called "libertarianism" that proposes jungle capitalism without the statist lion. Perhaps they can do a better lion than the MONOPOLISTIC LION--if they accept competition.

Do you know about this Political Compass? (The NO LION positions are below the horizontal line)...

http://www.politicalcompass.org/
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#4320 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 11 November 2004 - 07:41 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by donquijote
Well, we must evolve and the organization is growing and even getting some big names, or better the children of "big names." You must remember Che Guevara, right?;)

QUOTE]

Diamonds and ashes;
Che Guevara and Salvador Allende both were killed but their lives are undying success story.
They changed South America from US bordellos to the most prominent independent countries.
Wouldn
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