Jump to content

Theme© by Fisana
 

Photo

What would it take for Russia to be #1?


  • Please log in to reply
7545 replies to this topic

#4321 woj1@cyberonic.

woj1@cyberonic.

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 10667 posts

Posted 11 November 2004 - 08:12 AM

Originally posted by donquijote
You must remember Che Guevara, right?;)



Right. And not only Che Guevara but Salvador Allende and Kissinger as well. What it was the Condor operation?

When Che Guevara was man in Cuban revolution the Salvador Allende was democratically elected president in Chile.
Gen. Augusto Pinochet, together with gen . Merino led the 1973 coup that ousted Pres. Salvador Allende; Merino was an integral member of the military junta that ruled until 1990.
And we remember Pinochet, a career military officer, who planned and led the coup d'état in which Pres. Salvador Allende died.

He immediately moved to crush liberal opposition and in the next three years arrested about 130,000 Chileans.

A new constitution in 1981 granted him eight more years as president.
And for this attack on democracy was not only responsible Pinochet alone. The Nixon administration with Kissinger as a security adviser was big help.
After Allende nationalized American-owned mining companies, the administration increased aid to the Chilean military, cultivated secret contacts with anti-Allende police and military officials, and undertook various other destabilizing measures, including funneling millions of dollars in covert payments to Chilean opposition groups in 1970
  • 0

#4322 Bader

Bader

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1757 posts

Posted 11 November 2004 - 08:53 AM

Howdy Woj:

You can believe in communism thats your choiuce but you cant defend the past. They got rid of religion and competition and they were propped up by the US not under seige.

Howdy DonQ:

Humanism is a secular religion and antiChristian. It will be afeature in the world religion of the NWO which will be intelerant towards Jews, Christians and Muslims who hold, as fundamentalists, to One God, and specific as the Creator. Note the word 'fundamentalist' is already turned into a threat (terrorist)
to society by the puppeteers terrorist war trying to enflame a major war between Christians and Muslims.
A society has to be all-inclusive regardless of life philosophies/beliefs. This label isnt. It has to be non-lion to everyone.

"ceonomic democracy' isnt one dimensional because its the fundamental basis of modern life which will make (empower)
people to be able to make a lot more choices from the new freedom and whats the point of trying to agree on what we all will do with our time and money which we will have more of.
Freedom makes room for more cooperation and competition, they will take care of themselves.
All Libertarians need to do is make economic democracy the one basic policy and what they want will have meaning for everyone.
Under the current money system its great for the Im-all-right-jack
but mocks at least half the population.
When the people control the money system (symbolised by the jungle waterhole) they will control the politics/govt as the current
money-power does. Then you will get democracy and not before and thus its the fundamental basis of all human dimensions not just one.

If you read the works of anarchists no one would be thinking Kubbutz, miniture organised societies with leaders and controls.
People on kibbutz could be called capitalists also because they sell for profits but if one reads about capitalism one doesnt think kibbutz either.

I was joking about about the Israeli wall and nostalgia.
  • 0

#4323 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 11 November 2004 - 02:00 PM

<Howdy Woj:

You can believe in communism thats your choiuce but you cant defend the past. They got rid of religion and competition and they were propped up by the US not under seige.>

Woj, will the MONOPOLISTIC LION ever be a solution? History is not kind toward them, be it kings or leaders of Nazism, communism and democracy. They always to turn to FEEDING THEMSELVES and LIVING THE SCRAPS for others. And besides they tend to GET INTO FIGHTS...;)

<Howdy DonQ:

Humanism is a secular religion and antiChristian. It will be afeature in the world religion of the NWO which will be intelerant towards Jews, Christians and Muslims who hold, as fundamentalists, to One God, and specific as the Creator. Note the word 'fundamentalist' is already turned into a threat (terrorist)
to society by the puppeteers terrorist war trying to enflame a major war between Christians and Muslims.
A society has to be all-inclusive regardless of life philosophies/beliefs. This label isnt. It has to be non-lion to everyone.>

Howdy Bader
I said I got no particular attachment to "humanism" but it that it may be appropriate to indicate that WE ARE COMING OUT OF THE DARK AGES. We have other names though you like even less (Banana Revolution).;)

<"ceonomic democracy' isnt one dimensional because its the fundamental basis of modern life which will make (empower)
people to be able to make a lot more choices from the new freedom and whats the point of trying to agree on what we all will do with our time and money which we will have more of.
Freedom makes room for more cooperation and competition, they will take care of themselves.>

OK, here's an organization that uses your favorite name. (I hope you don't leave us for them. Actually we are going to contact them)...

What is EconomicDemocracy.org "all about"??
An Overview:

Q: Is this a site for "radical" rather than "reformist" change?

A: As someone said, or should have said, "the revolution is an evolution" -- there is a gray line between the two. However, it is assumed that EconomicDemocracy.org's readership understands the that institutions (not people) lie at the root of problems. You may replace a CEO with a less corrupt CEO, but if you leave corporations as is, externalizing costs and corrupting influences will continue (but you knew that, of you would be at this site..)

Q: So you're one of those Z type folks analyzing the evils of modern corporate capitalism?

A: No exactly. Understanding what's wrong with today's world is only a first step.

Q: Ah! So you're about offering visions of what a good society could look like, like Parecon (Participatory Economics)?

A: Indirectly, yes, but the focus of EconomicDemocracy.org is on a third aspect. Not "what's wrong today" and not "what are positive alternatives we are for" but a third question: "how do we move from here to there?" including specific strategies, tactics, and action plans.

Q: Cool! But I hear you are somewhat related to the second question too, since you believe in "let's build the alternative," yes?

A: This is true. There are many reasons for this. Not only is it less depressing and more exciting to "start building alternatives today" but, it is also about setting our sights higher than merely "let's slow down the damage the present system does" (though struggles that do that in parallel have our and deserve everyone's support).

Another reason is strategic: it is not just that we need to build alternatives so they will be there after our "corporate capitalist", corporate-feudalist order is dismantled. Rather, sometimes the best way to achieve the dismantling of corporate power is by building alternatives, thus giving people a true choice, withdrawing support from corporations, and helping reduce, then eliminate our economic dependence on corporations -- eliminating economic gun pointed at us.

http://economicdemocracy.org

<All Libertarians need to do is make economic democracy the one basic policy and what they want will have meaning for everyone.
Under the current money system its great for the Im-all-right-jack
but mocks at least half the population.
When the people control the money system (symbolised by the jungle waterhole) they will control the politics/govt as the current
money-power does. Then you will get democracy and not before and thus its the fundamental basis of all human dimensions not just one.

If you read the works of anarchists no one would be thinking Kubbutz, miniture organised societies with leaders and controls.
People on kibbutz could be called capitalists also because they sell for profits but if one reads about capitalism one doesnt think kibbutz either.>

OK, I'll leave you with what Alberto just wrote...

My dear Quixote,

Sure we're, all in all, anarchists too.
But of a very uncommon kind, like every true creator and sustainably free man and woman, who really care about JUSTICE, real justice, substantial justice, in front of which ALL has to stop: individual and group FREEDOM, fake, only formal DEMOCRACY, WILD AND MULTINATIONAL CAPITALISM...
That's why I like your 'Justice for Peace' so much.
(That I like even more 'Banana Revolution' has other reasons, I already clarified.)
For instance, I for one, like William Godwin - few anarchists know that a protestant English theologist is their founder..., they think that either Bakunin or Stirner are - Feuerbach (philosophical Hegelian left), the socialist Utopians, as Fourier and Owen, then Kropotkin & Tolstoy, Sacco & Vanzetti, who were completely innocent, but wanted total justice and were Italians, Enrico Malatesta, the Spanish-Catalan CNT (Confederación Nacional Trabajadores), who won regular elections in 1936, fight Franco and was really defeated by the Spanish Stalinist, Emma Goldman, Chomsky, Colin Ward...
And I respect also not only them, but other people, even believers, who DID good things.

That's not the real point.
The point is that too stiff IDEOLOGY, ANARCHISM included, can be just another trap.
'IDEOLOGY IS THE GRAVE OF IDEAS', I wrote.
Every integralism, fanaticism, is dangerous, not intelligent, often not cultivated.
And true, historical anarchists, often were greatly self-taught.

All in all I never ask if one is/thinks to be this or that.
But if he/she wants to do certain things, projects or not.
All in all: what to do, why, with whom, how, when, where.

In real CReActions there is ALL what you are, think, like, hate, know, want to know, write.
Starting from too stiff ideologies is the wrong starting side.
It soon uselessly divides also people who could really walk a long way together, instead of uniting them.
Because one can also discover that he is really not something, and really like some other.

Of course there hasn't to exist hypocrisy and things have to be quite clear.

Marley is the best.
A Banana Revolutionaire before it was started by you.

ALB.
  • 0

#4324 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 11 November 2004 - 02:38 PM

I know, "**** them," but denying them is not going to help. We should always leave room for escape. If they accept competition from us very few people would be willing for them at least in their wild form.

We must always say WE WANT COMPETITION, if not they are going to be plotting against us, and find the excuse for it in that we threaten "freedom," "democracy," etc. But who's afraid of COMPETITION, us or they?

<ALBatro <a.l.beretta@virgilio.it> wrote:
that's right, all in all.
I'm not afraid of competition at all, because I tend - like you, it seems, maybe Canek and (a few) other people, to get, like, ouput total quality, authentic things and processes, carinbg much about hte relationships with other people (customers, collaborators, employees), the society, the legal authorities, whatever they may be, nature - provided it is FAIR.
Who's really gonna check on the FAIRNESS of competition?
That's the BIG point.
There is the wrong belief that the utmost FREEDOM & CAPITALISM is in itself the utmost DEMOCRACY. Too many little animals too, not only those, believe it, until they feel on their skins the whip...>

Fairness implies regulation, and that is too messy.

But if we got say a 50/50 distribution of coops, non coops enterprises, the capitalist enterprise may try to suffocate the competition, true, but the coop should be more resilient as it doesn't have to turn out a profit. We in kind can give them competition taking away their workers. Who does want to work for a lion? How about the many problems of the jungle they go back to (crime, pollution, landlord...)?

We can give them a BETTER LIFE for a fraction of the price. That's why people join the kibbutz...

"Most people are living on Kibbutz Arava for two reasons: 1.) to be able to work for themselves [no politician, no bureaucrat, no boss, in other words, no lion], and 2.) to be able to raise their children in a safe and comfortable environment [in other words, no jungle]. In a world whose cities are increasingly becoming more polarized and violent, these basic wants/needs are synonymous with life on a kibbutz.

Internally, Kibbutz Arava functions rather communally and ecologically. There is a central dining room and commons area. Food that is eaten in the dining room arrives as bulk, wholesale crates, thus eliminating retail wastes such as packaging and plastic wrappers. The kibbutz is a pedestrian community. People are able to walk and ride their bikes to any kibbutz activity. In fact, there are only five leisure cars available for the 130 adult members. On kibbutz, people don't throw much away. When things break, they are fixed either by the garage, carpentry shop, or laundry. Things are not easily thrown away, as items are scarce. There are public commodities, such as a coffee and tea lounge, a pool, an entertainment area, a computer and fax room, a music studio, and a horse stable. By offering these amenities, the kibbutz eliminates the need for everyone to have their own TV, computer, etc [no consumerism, which feeds the lion]."
  • 0

#4325 woj1@cyberonic.

woj1@cyberonic.

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 10667 posts

Posted 11 November 2004 - 07:08 PM

Originally posted by Bader
Howdy Woj:

You can believe in communism thats your choiuce but you cant defend the past. They got rid of religion and competition and they were propped up by the US not under seige.

I was joking about about the Israeli wall and nostalgia.]



Michael Crichton- man from Baghdad in Eater of the Dead to support truth of his memories says; I saw it my own eyes.
I also consider most reliable what I saw my own eyes.
And I don-t see US victory .Present Polish condition indicates, that Russia dumped Eastern Europe countries from permanent subsidizing and left on their own account. The new governments went to West for financial help with poignant results. Now Polish apply for Russian citizenship to look for jobs in Russia.

Personally I think that in Russian History , the Gorbaczew stays as a more murderous figure than Stalin. Switching to market economy cost Russia and Estern Europe more lost or destructed lives than Stalin orders to death.
West practicising two economies ; for themselves; Milton Friedman and for subjected countries to the John Maynard Keynes) policy.
Milton Friedman from , Brooklyn, N.Y.,.U.S. economist.
became the leading U.S. advocate of monetarism. He oversaw the economic transition in Chile after the overthrow of Salvador Allende and Pinochet Junta gets to power. He received the Nobel Prize in 1976.
Milton Friedman maintains that the money supply is the chief determinant of economic activity.
Milton Friedman and his followers promoted monetarism as an alternative to Keynesian economics ();. Monetarism holds that a change in the money supply directly affects and determines production, employment, and price levels, though its influence is evident only over a long and often variable period of time. Fundamental to the monetarist approach is the rejection of fiscal policy in favour of ?monetary rule Steady, moderate growth of the money supply, in their view, offered the best hope of assuring a constant rate of economic growth with low inflation.
So Milton Friedman money supply policy was accepted for Us and fight with inflation with high interest rate policy chocking industries were order for vassal countries.
It was accompanied with attack on local currencies, depretiation and devaluation of their values by speculations organized mostly by Soros.
Many people lost their companies, businesses, real estates etc. US oligarchs could put their hand on Asian resources and goods. People found themselves on street and many committed suicides.
Leading people to suicide is identical crime as direct killing.

Best jokes which are close to reality.

From: WSJ.com Editors Nov-11 9:15 am

What effect will Arafat
  • 0

#4326 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 12 November 2004 - 04:07 AM

Well Bader, if you liked our anti-lion stance but the Economic Democracy name, now you can have them both.;)

The contact was indeed fruitful. Look who's at the bottom of this link...

http://economicdemoc...org/analy.shtml

Here's the full text of his reply...

Dear Don Quixote and Alberto,

I am happy to "hook with you" as you put it. I remember well
receiving some note from one of you, and reading (and enjoying) the
Lion stories. My recollection is that I _did_ respond. Did I not? My
intention was to respond and it's been too long ago to remember the
details. In any case I am happy to collaborate, as appropriate, with
you.

As you can see at www.harelbarzilai.org I live in the US (I was born
in Israel, ages 0-6, then in US ages 6-8, and permanently in the US
since age 12). The pointer from harelbarzilai.org to my
www.barzilai.org indicates my profession, which is how I have been
working since getting my degree in 1997, however by 2008-2010 I plan
to find something else -- another job without a boss, but more freedom
(more time!) for activism, and also being part of a community. Did you
know that the US has kibbutz-like intentional communities? The main
intentional communities site is www.ic.org but there is a subset, a
smaller group that is more kibbutz-like, see www.thefec.org if you
haven't seen it already.

On to collaboration issues. My time is much more limited than when I
was a graduate student. So I force myself to focus, as best as I can,
in my limited time, on those things that seem most effective. For
example, I would enjoy discussing theory and analysis with you, but in
my experience we could do that for (dozens of) hours and discuss the
10% or 20% where we disagree and certainly all of us would gain
insights, but I will have to leave (most) of that to summer and/or
my break in January; too little time most of the rest of the year.

It is true that I spent a lot of time posting to UseNet...trying to
put out the fires...trying to wake up the U.S. trying to stop Bush,
stop the Iraq invasion, etc...but those were 'emergency measures' and
are _not_ the main work of EconomicDemocracy.org because that work is
to change the _institutions_ which give rise to wars, ecological
catastrophes, exploitation etc. I take it you have already looked at
the "analysis" section of EconomicDemocracy.org but the "Projects"
section has grown and that is the main work.

Back in March 1991 I co-founded UseNet's misc.activism.progressive
with Rich Winkel, he has been my longest collaborator (he lives in
Missouri; we have never met but we have spoken by phone several
times). Since creating EconomicDemocracy.org in 2000 my closest
collaborator has been Michael McKinnon in Australia. Our main
collaboration to date has been his creating www.GroundAction.com and
I helped decide, together with him the structure and "content
areas". It is not for discussion of theory, it is mostly for
discussing strategy, tactics, and specific Projects.

If you wish to discuss those things, you can collaborate with me/with
us by going to www.GroundAction.com and posting...there is one area
(one forum) where it is ok to discuss other things...but the other
areas are for strategy/tactics/projects mostly. Also at
www.Economicdemocracy.org/forums/ there is a link to our older forums
system, and there you can post general thoughts..as well as about the
Media project ("The Revolution Will Be Webcast") and other project
proposals.

I've added a triple link at the bottom of
http://economicdemoc...org/analy.shtml to the three websites you
sent. I am fairly "picky" about which links to add, even very good
ones I do not add if they don't fit the mission (e.g. very good but
focused on discussion or other less efficient (in my view)
strategies..) but there seems to be enough in common here..

My philosophy: it is better for useful things to move slowly than for
less useful (or questionable) things to move fast.

So, other than "emergency measures" posting in terms of anti-war
(including this TACTIC against the 2003 invasion of Iraq which we can
try to use now to prevent the next war:
http://economicdemoc.../wtc/stop2.html) I focus on the big
projects in EconomicDemocracy.org.

So far only small steps in terms of finding partners to make the media
project happen. However for the most ambitious project, "A Workable
Program for Dismantling Corporate Power" and in particular for part
that is written, "A Workable Transition to Democratic Retirement
Systems" I have succeeded in convincing one of the top "community
activists" in the USA to work together -- *if* we can find enough
money to launch it.

His name is Paul Glover and he is the person who launched Ithaca
Hours, probably the most well known (And certainly among the most
successful if not most successful) local currencies in the US, Ithaca
Hours (http://ithacahours.org/) and since 1997 he launched a
community-owned health insurance, see www.IthacaHealth.org (since our
government will not create national health insurance...and even if it
did, "what the government gives, the government can take away" and it
is better to have community democratic control). I am trying to help
support and help expand the Ithaca Health Fund (it works for people
outside Ithaca; I am a member; it is only $100 per year)

But if we can raise $20,000 he will launch Community Annuities;
this idea combined the "Workable Transition to Democratic Retirement
Systems" project of mine (see
http://economicdemoc...s-overview.html for all the projects;
it is project "G-1")
with his "Whole Ithaca Stock Exchange" idea (use google to find) and
that at least has made "Small steps forward"

This email is running too long but I hope I have given you a good
overview of what I'm most interested in pursuing, plus a way (online
discussion boards) to post (even though I check only every 3 months or
so, I do keep going back to check those boards, and I post back, so
slowly a dialogue is moving forward; use email for quicker reply
..though sometimes my schedule forces a few weeks delay..) and areas I
am most interested in working on. I encourage you to join the
EconomicDemocracy announcement list as well, perhaps you are already
both on it.(see http://economicdemoc.../list/list.html )

That is all for now, peace and best wishes,

Harel Barzilai

P.S. I do not read the key west newsgroup regularly, and
I don't even have time to read most of usenet most of the time; I post
and at the bottom of my posts it says "sorry I cannot read most
newsgroups; email me if you want to contact" or the like...

+ Hi friends

+ I've chosen the word very appropriately since we propose a fruitful
+ revolution: the Banana Revolution.
+
+ Actually we had a brief contact before at the Key West newsgroup, but
+ it never developed. But it's a shame because we really have a lot in
+ common, and I even quote you in one of our webpages. Anyways,
everything
+ is further developed now and we can truly say, ours can be a fruitful
+ colaboration...
+
+ main webpages
+ http://committed.to/justiceforpeace
+ http://webspawner.co...ers/donquijote1
+ http://webspawner.co...rs/donquijote40

* Hi,
*
* ECODEMOcrats ;o)...
* Yes, my friend, Don Quixote 1, DO has reasons for re.offering a loyal
* and working alliance.
* Me too - the Italian Banana r-Evolution "living interface" I would
* appreciate if you, this second and last time, would actually and
* properly hook with us.
* Where are you based?
*
* ALBatro (alias DQ3, alias Spaghetti Jones, alias (official name)
Alberto
* L. Beretta,
* BRIC - Banana Revolution Italian Coordinator.
  • 0

#4327 Bader

Bader

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1757 posts

Posted 12 November 2004 - 07:58 AM

Howdy all:

We have got ourselves working harder havent we, good stuff.

Arafat: I agree Woj, but I see him as having been appointed to fail in which case for the international puppeteers he was successful. If he was as we all supposed to believe he would have been bumped off well before now.
He has been just the same as those other two-bit dictators the US put in power to stop democratic forces from developing/

Economic democracy - Q and A s:
What I picked out DonQ was the Institution as being the problem
and this I suspect is what I refer to as 'people made for systems'
instead of systems made to SERVE people - Social Credit language.
The other point was that we need to have some realistic idea
(being practical and not just theretical) of how the alternative is to be achieved. I assume that they are wiser than most who just tinker with symtoms and ignor the causes. This is excellent.

Albertos comment:
What I picked up from that was that the appeal of Anarchism and Justice is basically the same its about attaining freedom of the individual BUT in doing so by any means that doesnt ensnair one
by institutions/organisational regimes/rigged ideology, which is the same concern above= man made for systems.
And as for "whos going to check the fairness" this may be the area of the Relationship between the Individual and the Organisation/System etc, which Social Credit recognises and addresses, which I have yet to find anyone else address. This is where the freedom to vote with ones feet is crucial.

These are all in Douglas' writings.

The reply from "Economic Democracy.org" was very interesting,
I may have a look at some of the sites over the weekend.
I would like to see what he has to say about dismantling corporate power.

The label "banana revolution" sounds like satire and people may not take it seriously. In fact I am not sure what it is supposed to be saying.
  • 0

#4328 woj1@cyberonic.

woj1@cyberonic.

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 10667 posts

Posted 12 November 2004 - 10:54 AM

Originally posted by Bader
[BIf you read the works of anarchists no one would be thinking Kubbutz, miniture organised societies with leaders and controls.
People on kibbutz could be called capitalists also because they sell for profits but if one reads about capitalism one doesnt think kibbutz either.

[/B]


Eulogy for kibbutz.
When Slavs from European Caucasus three or more thousand years ago moved to India and next return to Europe were Nomads. Still were Nomads when they move with seasons between South and North in Europe. They use rather comfortable up to 6 wheel horse wagons covered with boiled wool to protect them from cold, rain and fire. All of them share equally their obligation to society; with higher social standing for shaman and ironsmith. Shaman duty were between a medicus and priest when ironsmith prepared weapon.

During their Nomads life they starts to grow poppy for medical anesthesiology purpose and for its protein values.
Nostalgia for this nomadic Slavs era still push them on camping during summer instead of creating social recommendation for life.:(
During communism Polish worked in Libya building them palaces with alabaster stones. Libyan nomadic nostalgia pushes them to make bonfire and to dance and sing around fire on alabaster floor.
Jews Nomad nostalgia is still alive as well, and push them to kibbutz and attempt them to do kibbutz the others; something similar to the Arabs bonfire on precious floor.
:) :(
  • 0

#4329 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 12 November 2004 - 01:58 PM

<Howdy all:

We have got ourselves working harder havent we, good stuff.

Arafat: I agree Woj, but I see him as having been appointed to fail in which case for the international puppeteers he was successful. If he was as we all supposed to believe he would have been bumped off well before now.
He has been just the same as those other two-bit dictators the US put in power to stop democratic forces from developing/>

Howdy Bader
Yep, we deserve this victory. Many people are out to stop the lion--before they get eaten.;)

Anyway, I agree with you assessment of Arafat. To play in the world scene you must be puppet. The more colorful the better. I was hearing yesterday the disastrous economic conditions left behind by him. Chances are when a peace deal is finally accomplished the Palestinians will happily agree to work for Israel for a few bucks. But hey, they'll be "free"... Where is the WATER WELL though? That's the one off limits to the puppets...;)

<Economic democracy - Q and A s:
What I picked out DonQ was the Institution as being the problem
and this I suspect is what I refer to as 'people made for systems'
instead of systems made to SERVE people - Social Credit language.
The other point was that we need to have some realistic idea
(being practical and not just theretical) of how the alternative is to be achieved. I assume that they are wiser than most who just tinker with symtoms and ignor the causes. This is excellent.>

I know it is. They offer PRACTICAL SOLUTIONS to PRACTICAL PROBLEMS created by the lion. That's why the only solution is the little animals--or little people--must organize around their own WELL. These news must be silenced by the official media while they dedicate their time to Arafat. Does it tell us something about his role in puppet show?

<Albertos comment:
What I picked up from that was that the appeal of Anarchism and Justice is basically the same its about attaining freedom of the individual BUT in doing so by any means that doesnt ensnair one
by institutions/organisational regimes/rigged ideology, which is the same concern above= man made for systems.
And as for "whos going to check the fairness" this may be the area of the Relationship between the Individual and the Organisation/System etc, which Social Credit recognises and addresses, which I have yet to find anyone else address. This is where the freedom to vote with ones feet is crucial.>

I believed at that time that Social Credit was cumbersome, but I'm willing to discuss any particular aspects of it that may be helpful to us. What we have in mind--and I'm sure you agree with--is more coops as an alternative to the lion, and in competition with him. Very little need for regulation. If you like the lion, go; if you like the coop, welcome. COMPETITION, OPTIONS, SOLUTIONS is our thing...;)

<The label "banana revolution" sounds like satire and people may not take it seriously. In fact I am not sure what it is supposed to be saying.>

Our official name is JUSTICE FOR PEACE (notice the cause-effect relationship), but our unofficial name (according to the rumors of the people) is Banana Revolution...;)

Why? It just catches people's attention better and signals that this is something DIFFERENT, FUN and based on ABUNDANCE and FREEDOM. We can't obey any lion when we laugh about him, right? And besides it's the most logical answer to the Banana Republics we live under, no?:cool:
  • 0

#4330 woj1@cyberonic.

woj1@cyberonic.

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 10667 posts

Posted 12 November 2004 - 04:43 PM

Originally posted by donquijote
]<:

Chances are when a peace deal is finally accomplished the Palestinians will happily agree to work for Israel for a few bucks. But hey, they'll be "free"...



Maybe yes, may be not...US ARMY BLACK HAWK HELICOPTER DOWNED, THREE CREW MEMBERS INJURED: US MILITARY

http://news.xinhuane...ent_2211939.htm
  • 0

#4331 Bader

Bader

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1757 posts

Posted 12 November 2004 - 05:53 PM

It takes time for what Social Credit says to register. Once you appreciate the nature of the problems better the less cumbersome it appears. Remember Pliny thought it would take huge bureaucracy. But it has done what the reply from Economic
Democracy has claimed it has done- analysed the problem and not only devised an alternative but details how to build it.
Its actually quite susinct once you appreciate what is causing the problems.
Be interesting to compare what E.D. has to say about the problems, I havent done any study of their material.
The importance you place on Coops is consistent with living an alternative anti-lion way inside the Lions jungle.
If you removed the lion, and therefore the jungle, the coop principles, which I have referred to often will become the frame
of society, and only some will want to live in coops, the majority wont because it will be possible for individualism to maximise.
Your Justice for Peace has to show how you will replace the lions well with a democratic one.
Until you get your head around the money thing you cannot appreciate the causes of the problems.
You can create an umbrella for a handful of people (coop) to get out of the rain but that doesnt turn the rain off.
In each coop there is justice and peace, partly because those who dont find enough of it will move on, but the nation is a different scale. The lion still controls the money and therefore
the lawmakers and the policy that will govern coops.
  • 0

#4332 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 12 November 2004 - 06:10 PM

Originally posted by Bader
Until you get your head around the money thing you cannot appreciate the causes of the problems.
You can create an umbrella for a handful of people (coop) to get out of the rain but that doesnt turn the rain off.
In each coop there is justice and peace, partly because those who dont find enough of it will move on, but the nation is a different scale. The lion still controls the money and therefore
the lawmakers and the policy that will govern coops.



Actually, it's quite good the jungle remains out there. People will "vote with their feet" to the coops. And then it gets milder--so the lion notices he needs them--and some people start voting out of the kibbutz. And that's the web and flow of things, until things settle down.

If, on the other hand, you decree NO JUNGLE, you will require REGULATION, which woud take us to the Scandinavian socialist model, which is #1 now, but which is expensive, sometimes unfair and perhaps boring...;)
  • 0

#4333 Bader

Bader

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1757 posts

Posted 13 November 2004 - 07:54 AM

If you can create a kibbutz with no ''regulations'' it will be the first
and it will be anarchistic, but being a one man one ( and his wife, twos company threes a crowd who cannot agree for long without
'rules') I doubt you will get accredited with being rated a kibbutz. Everyone will say ya jist a 'couple'.
  • 0

#4334 woj1@cyberonic.

woj1@cyberonic.

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 10667 posts

Posted 13 November 2004 - 03:02 PM

Originally posted by donquijote
Actually, it's quite good the jungle remains out there. People will "vote with their feet" to the coops. And then it gets milder--so the lion notices he needs them--and some people start voting out of the kibbutz. And that's the web and flow of things, until things settle down.

If, on the other hand, you decree NO JUNGLE, you will require REGULATION, which woud take us to the Scandinavian socialist model, which is #1 now, but which is expensive, sometimes unfair and perhaps boring...;)



Over 1000 insurgents killed as massive assault on Iraq's Fallujah ends: The US-Iraqi massive assault on Iraq's once rebel-held city of Fallujah ended on Saturday.
http://www.xinhuanet...glish/index.htm

I don't think that is it's quite good the jungle remains out there.

Peace, kibbutz and 80% Scandinavian tax;
Do drug traffickers prefer peace or war? Of course peace.
Peace provide quite time free from insecurities of military control. Does pickpocket like rumor after his successful seize? No.
Does country like war after his success in grab of new territory? No.
Doesn
  • 0

#4335 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 13 November 2004 - 03:10 PM

Originally posted by Bader
If you can create a kibbutz with no ''regulations'' it will be the first
and it will be anarchistic, but being a one man one ( and his wife, twos company threes a crowd who cannot agree for long without
'rules') I doubt you will get accredited with being rated a kibbutz. Everyone will say ya jist a 'couple'.



Howdy Bader
There's always "rules and regulations" but these are internal to the kibbutz not to the society at large. Likewise there got to be rules in society but these are not different than what we got today. But let me tell you, the problem we got now is not the rules, but the APPLICATION of them.

The lion is totally indifferent to them because he gives a damn about things other than money and got NO competition. I mean we can always create a clone of the Scandinavian society and play it safe, but what kind of Utopia would we be?

Needless to say, how much the Scandinavians can benefit from us...;)

<ALBatro <a.l.beretta@virgilio.it> wrote:
take your time.
wow, your Italian is already smashing ;o)...
'Amico', 'amigo' is Spanish.
I already briefly replied, in another way, but the substance is somehow the same of yours.
Or, at least, complementary.
bBY the way, I agree also as for the Scandinavian model, because is seems perfect, but it isn't, otherwise the Swedish, with the Japanese, for other reasons, probably the opposite ones, are one of the people with the highest rate of suicides.
But I don't wan't to/can't melt deeply in fora again, for some reasons you know.
Unless is OURS.

ALB.

P. S.: I couldn't translate the doc # 8 (Una Revolución Diferente) today, but yesterday I dowloaded, printed, studied and took notes on it for the trasnlation in Itlaian, English and French.
All right?
I'll let you have when I'll be over.>

You are the best, amico. Perhaps isolated life in the north is to blame as much as weather. Hot caribbean music in Nordic kibbutz will be therapeutic. Even the old and frail will dance...:D

Good news about the translation, particularly into French. Imagine the Croissant Revolution, plus all those French speaking jungles in Africa.;)
  • 0

#4336 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 13 November 2004 - 03:50 PM

Originally posted by woj1@cyberonic.
Peace, kibbutz and 80% Scandinavian tax;
Do drug traffickers prefer peace or war? Of course peace.
Peace provide quite time free from insecurities of military control. Does pickpocket like rumor after his successful seize? No.
Does country like war after his success in grab of new territory? No.
Doesn-t society which seize the water well fro the neighbor, is looking for peaceful solutions after the grab of neighbor property? .Yes, it does.

Kibbutz is useful in comfort of screaming victims, and cleaning the traces of aggression.
In kibbutz nobody will die from shortage of water, in contrary kibbutz will collect money from all its members and now they will buy their own water from aggressor now the water peacefully and not making any troubles.

World will no see oppose the quite and peaceful change of the ownership the water well.

I don't think that is it's quite good the jungle remains out there.



I know, but we can make the jungle UNSUSTAINABLE. It can only survive now because the little animals got no place to run to.

Of course we can go further, and declare the world to abide by the extended HUMAN RIGHTS DECLARATION, which includes the right to EDUCATION, HEALTHCARE, SHELTER, FOOD, A CLEAN ENVIRONMENT... FOR ALL HUMAN BEINGS.

And, of course, we can re-write it...;)

Article 22.

Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

Article 23.

(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.

(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.

(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

Article 24.

Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.

Article 25.

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

Article 26.

(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.

(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.

(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.

Article 27.

(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.
  • 0

#4337 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 13 November 2004 - 05:28 PM

Bader, don't get me wrong: Scandinavia is very good, so good that they #1 in the world, and just by being like some of them we would secure a much safer world. Actually bin Laden himself acknowledges this...

"People of America this talk of mine is for you and concerns the ideal way to prevent another Manhattan and deals with the war and its causes and results. Before I begin, I say to you that security is an indispensable pillar of human life and that free men do not forfeit their security contrary to Bush's claim that we hate freedom. If so, then let him explain to us why we didn't strike -- for example -- Sweden."

But we can make it BETTER, providing MORE OPTIONS (coops), MAKING IT LESS REGULATED, LESS BUREAUCRATIC, PROVIDING MORE SOCIAL COHERENCE (coop life), EMPHASIZING LEARNING TO FISH NOT GIVING THE FISH and most importantly NEVER ASSOCIATING WITH ANY LION...;)
  • 0

#4338 Bader

Bader

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1757 posts

Posted 13 November 2004 - 07:43 PM

You seem to having a dollar each way at the moment, DonQ.

I havent said anything about Scandanavia, which I suspect is very much like NZ has been until recently. I dont know what impact the free-market has had on Scandanavia so I cant compare
but social policy is still quite strong in NZ under the once leftwing party of Labour. The tax rate isnt high by Scandanavia standards
but the tax take has blosoomed to huge figures although govt is ever saying how strapped for cash it is except when it does what it wants to do.
But high taxes is a major claw of the lion. It is still another hole in the pocket and over time the value it buys reduces so health and education etc services reduce but the strangle hold stays tight and could get tighter.
Its all about money. Unfortunately most people think money is like gravity and sunlight and the laws of maths etc. It's a man made scheme to rob and steal and the mass destruction of humanity when necessary to get control of resources, because it conrols govts and their armed forces.

The Human Rights Declaration is a joke. The debt money system
makes it impossible as well as free-market policies. If the UNO
was for real it would have to address the issue of a true and honest finance system first and if we had that there would be no need for free-market 'invasions' of others resources.

All those rights listed were denied Iraqi people for over a decade by the UN and they ignore the anti-semitic genocidal war by the
WMD depleted uranium that still goes on there.
Iraqis are voting with their feet and they are called terrorists
and insurgents because they chose to fight against the invader
rather than cooperate.
The UN is a blister on top of a boil and serves the same purpose as western media to replace conceptions of reality with illusions
and delusions - to disarm people of native commonsence and basis noble instincts.

A world of coop/kibbutzs you may yet see DonQ. After the Internationalists have reduced the population of the earth and wound back industry and closed off large regions for wild life, communities are quite likely to become feudal type coop
communities which the rank and file may never ever get outside of.
At that point the survival of the fittist will have reached its
ultimate fulfillment. The Lion will boast how he got rid of the jungle and created security and peace.

"bin Laden's" dispatch just a couple of days before the election was pro-Bush. They are on the same side undermining security.
  • 0

#4339 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 14 November 2004 - 03:11 AM

<You seem to having a dollar each way at the moment, DonQ.>

In that too, I provide options. If the Utopian coops don't provide a valid option for the masses, then we can always fall back to the Scandinavian system. But this one too is compatible with coops so it's not matter "one or the other" but "one and the other."

And if that were the least we could accomplish, it may as well make the world 90% safer.

<The Human Rights Declaration is a joke. The debt money system
makes it impossible as well as free-market policies. If the UNO
was for real it would have to address the issue of a true and honest finance system first and if we had that there would be no need for free-market 'invasions' of others resources.>

It's a joke because they are not implemented. We could make it work if we wanted though. If not then go back to competition between coops and jungle.

<A world of coop/kibbutzs you may yet see DonQ. After the Internationalists have reduced the population of the earth and wound back industry and closed off large regions for wild life, communities are quite likely to become feudal type coop
communities which the rank and file may never ever get outside of.
At that point the survival of the fittist will have reached its
ultimate fulfillment. The Lion will boast how he got rid of the jungle and created security and peace.>

Feudal type communities are lion communities; coops are little animals communities. One is anti-social, the other social. One belligerent, the other peaceful.

But you seem to see a problem on both sides of the coin as well...;)
  • 0

#4340 woj1@cyberonic.

woj1@cyberonic.

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 10667 posts

Posted 14 November 2004 - 11:47 AM

Originally posted by donquijote
Needless to say, how much the Scandinavians can benefit from us...;) Hot caribbean music in Nordic kibbutz will be therapeutic. Even the old and frail will dance...:D

Good news about the translation, particularly into French. Imagine the Croissant Revolution, plus all those French speaking jungles in Africa.;)



Purposeful omission is a crime in eyes of law, and I don
  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Copyright © 2016 Pravda.Ru