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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#4541 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 07:48 PM

Originally posted by donquijote
"
Hey, Haz, you are going to like this...;)

The Law of the Land is the Law of the Jungle...



Most of the panegyric speeches are the funeral memorial orations.
But the most famous oration in history is The first oration of M. T. Cicero against Lucius Catilina.
It starts around like this;
How long Catilina , you are going to overuse our patience. ? Somehow I see it as a perfect comment to it.
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#4542 donquijote

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 08:05 PM

Originally posted by woj1@cyberonic.
Most of the panegyric speeches are the funeral memorial orations.
But the most famous oration in history is The first oration of M. T. Cicero against Lucius Catilina.
It starts around like this;
How long Catilina , you are going to overuse our patience. ? Somehow I see it as a perfect comment to it.



Well the Law of the Jungle can be overused until it meets its intended purpose, which is to get rid of the jungle. It can help us explain why Poland is prey to it. Or it can help us explaing why Rome was the first great predator in history. Think about it. It's easier than Marxism, Fascism or anything in between...;)
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#4543 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 03 December 2004 - 11:08 AM

Originally posted by donquijote
..It can help us explaing why Rome was the first great predator in history. Think about it. It's easier than Marxism, Fascism or anything in between...;)


Every civilization has its own predators.
For example the Stone and Bronze Age civilizations that arose and flourished in the area of the Aegean Sea ( about 7000
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#4544 donquijote

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Posted 03 December 2004 - 01:53 PM

Originally posted by woj1@cyberonic.
Every civilization has its own predators.



OK, what's the consolation from it? Should we then accept them and respect them?

Isn't that the very source of conflict? We still make sacrifices but our god is Mickey Mouse. Or perhaps some petty dictator. Worse, they demand our minds too.

I refuse to believe in predators. No lion no problem!;)
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#4545 Bader

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Posted 03 December 2004 - 06:07 PM

Check this one out:

blogs.salon.com/0002255/2004/11/27.html


Slavs unite!
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#4546 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 03 December 2004 - 09:03 PM

Originally posted by Bader
Check this one out:

blogs.salon.com/0002255/2004/11/27.html


Slavs unite!




We all know that and Putin as well, so why Putin is so peaceful when Slavs expect Big Bang from him?
Is Putin anew
Mikhail Illarionovich, Prince Kutuzov ?
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#4547 donquijote

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Posted 03 December 2004 - 09:18 PM

Originally posted by Bader
Check this one out:

blogs.salon.com/0002255/2004/11/27.html


Slavs unite!



Nice article. Demo-crisy is hard at work.

"Even if dictatorship is packaged in beautiful pseudo-democratic phraseology, it will not be able to solve systemic problems," Putin said. "It may even make them worse."
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#4548 donquijote

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Posted 04 December 2004 - 11:19 AM

the reason for Iraq...;)

http://photos.groups....src=gr&.view=t
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#4549 donquijote

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Posted 04 December 2004 - 11:21 AM

cant pull out...;)

http://photos.groups....src=gr&.view=t
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#4550 donquijote

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Posted 04 December 2004 - 12:00 PM

Ukraine votes to pull out of Iraq

Kiev, Ukraine, Dec. 3 (UPI) -- The Ukrainian Parliament passed a motion Friday calling on outgoing President Leonid Kuchma to withdraw the country's troops from Iraq.

Ukraine has around 1,600 soldiers operating in Iraq. The motion was supported by both opposition and pro-government deputies.

The resolution called for the withdrawal of Ukrainian forces due to what it called "the deteriorating situation" in Iraq. Ukraine has lost nine soldiers in Iraq with more than 20 wounded.

As the world focuses on developments following Ukraine's disputed presidential election, Friday's decision is more bad news for the Bush administration from Eastern Europe.

Hungary has said it will withdraw its troops by the end of the year, while the Czech Republic and Poland are planning to bring their troops home next year.

Public opinion in Ukraine, as in the rest of formerly communist Eastern Europe, has long been hostile to participation in the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq.
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#4551 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 04 December 2004 - 01:25 PM

Originally posted by donquijote
Ukraine votes to pull out of Iraq

Kiev, Ukraine, Dec. 3 (UPI) -- The Ukrainian Parliament passed a motion Friday calling on outgoing President Leonid Kuchma to withdraw the country's troops from Iraq.

Public opinion in Ukraine, as in the rest of formerly communist Eastern Europe, has long been hostile to participation in the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq.



.
Don
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#4552 donquijote

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Posted 04 December 2004 - 03:56 PM

Originally posted by woj1@cyberonic.
.
Don-t let yourself to be tricked. It is Solana / Bush ploy to give votes to Juszczenko and to cut US expenditure on Ukraine military.. As it is today Ukrainians are the paid contractors and US has to pay them.
US goal is to get Ukrainians soldiers for free, on cost of Ukrainians taxpayers.
First Juszczenko deal will be the declaration to join NATO and under US leadership of NATO, Ukraine will send NATO Ukrainian military on cost of Ukraine to Iraq. -..
Eastern Europe, has long been hostile to participation in the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq as a NATO members.



Well, but how can you sell that? It's not easy in light of the discredited image of the "mother of all democracies," unless, of course, is rigged like the elections...;)

"The DSB report also stresseed that US policies in the
Mideast -- notably Washington's support for Israel, the Iraq
invasion and its backing of autocratic leaders in the region
-- make it very difficult for Washington to persuade Muslims
of its good intentions."

Asia Times
Nov 30, 2004
Pentagon uncovers propaganda failures
By Jim Lobe

WASHINGTON -- Al-Qaeda and radical Islamists are winning the
propaganda war against the United States, says a high-level
Pentagon panel, which concluded that President George W
Bush's administration's policies in the Middle East, its
fundamental failure to understand the Muslim world and a
lack of imagination in using new communications technologies
are responsible.

In a report concluded in September but only released last
week, the Defense Science Board (DSB) called for a major
overhaul of Washington's "public diplomacy" and "strategic
communication" apparatus that would include much more money
and the creation of a new independent agency to enlist the
support of the private sector, researchers and
non-governmental organizations (NGOs) to promote US messages
to an increasingly hostile Islamic world.

"Strategic communication is a vital component of US national
security," stresses the 111-page report. "It is in crisis,
and it must be transformed with a strength of purpose that
matches our commitment to diplomacy, defense, intelligence,
law enforcement and homeland security . . . Collaboration
between government and the private sector on an
unprecedented scale is imperative."

The document also calls on US policymakers to spend more
time "listening" to their intended audience and use messages
that "should seek to reduce, not increase, perceptions of
arrogance, opportunism and double standards".

The DSB, made up of private sector and academic experts
appointed by Pentagon chief Donald Rumsfeld, normally
confines its advice to scientific and technological matters.
While it has no executive authority, its prominence, the
generally hawkish cast of its membership and the urgent tone
of the report will likely place its recommendations high on
the agenda in President Bush's second term.

The study is based on interviews with senior US
public-diplomacy, strategic-communication and
psychological-warfare officials and experts along with more
than a dozen studies by NGOs, such as the Council on Foreign
Relations, public-opinion surveys and internal government
reports conducted over the past three years.

All of them have shown a sharp plunge in US standing
throughout the Arab and Islamic worlds, particularly since
the March 2003 invasion of Iraq, as well as virtually total
failure of the United States to reverse that view
effectively, in large part due to the perception among
Muslims that Washington's policies are aimed at their
submission.

As one task force headed by former president George H W
Bush's top Middle East adviser, Edward Djerejian, concluded
13 months ago, "'Spin' and manipulative public relations and
propaganda are not the answer. Foreign policy counts . . .
Sugar-coating and fast talking are no solutions."

The DSB report also stresseed that US policies in the
Mideast -- notably Washington's support for Israel, the Iraq
invasion and its backing of autocratic leaders in the region
-- make it very difficult for Washington to persuade Muslims
of its good intentions. The report, however, does not advise
changing policies, which would be beyond its mandate.

The gap between Washington's rhetoric and its actions in the
region, as perceived by Muslims, has contributed to a near
total loss of credibility, argues the study.

"The larger goals of US strategy depend on separating the
vast majority of non-violent Muslims from the
radical-militant Islamist-jihadists," it argues. "But
American efforts have not only failed in this respect: they
may also have achieved the opposite of what they intended"
by, in essence, bearing out "the entire radical Islamist
bill of particulars".

Thus, contrary to the mantra of the administration and its
neo-conservative advisers, asserts the report, "Muslims do
not 'hate our freedom', but rather, they hate our policies.
The overwhelming majority voice their objections to what
they see as one-sided support in favor of Israel and against
Palestinian rights, and the long-standing even increasing
support for what Muslims collectively see as tyrannies, most
notably Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Pakistan and the Gulf
states."

Moreover, "when American public diplomacy talks about
bringing democracy to Islamic societies, this is seen as no
more than self-serving hypocrisy", while "saying that
'freedom is the future of the Middle East' is seen as
patronizing, suggesting that Arabs are like the enslaved
peoples of the old Communist World", which, asserts the
report, is not how Arabs see their situation at all.

On the contrary, it adds, the large majority yearn "to be
liberated perhaps from what they see as apostate tyrannies
that the US so determinedly promotes and defends".

"In the eyes of Muslims, American occupation of Afghanistan
and Iraq has not led to democracy there, but only more chaos
and suffering," notes the document.

"The critical problem in American public diplomacy directed
toward the Muslim world is not one of 'dissemination of
information', or even one of crafting and delivering the
'right' message," the report states.

"Rather, it is a fundamental problem of credibility. Simply,
there is none -- the United States today is without a
working channel of communication to the world of Muslims and
of Islam. Inevitably, therefore, whatever Americans do and
say only serves the party that has both the message and the
'loud and clear' channel: the enemy."

Neo-conservative and administration efforts to depict the
"war on terrorism" that Bush launched after the attacks of
September 11, 2001, as a war against "another totalitarian
evil", as in the Cold War, have been a "strategic mistake",
according to the report.

"In stark contrast to the Cold War, the United States today
is not seeking to contain a threatening state-empire, but
rather seeking to convert a broad movement within Islamic
civilization to accept the value structure of Western
modernity -- an agenda hidden within the official rubric of
a 'war on terrorism'.

"If we really want to see the Muslim world as a whole and
the Arab-speaking world in particular move more toward our
understanding of 'moderation' and 'tolerance', we must
reassure Muslims that this does not mean they must submit to
the American way," argues the report.

To succeed, Washington must target those in the Islamic
world "who support, or are likely to support, our views
based on their own culture, traditions and attitudes about
such things as personal control, choice and change," it adds.

"We believe the most 'movable' targets will be the so-called
secularists of the Muslim world: business people,
scientists, non-religious educators, politicians or public
administrators, musicians, artists, poets, writers,
journalists, actors and their audiences and admirers."

Key themes and messages that can persuade this group to back
US goals include: "respect for human dignity and individual
rights; individual education and economic opportunity; and
personal freedom, safety and mobility," suggests the report,
which also stresses developing new techniques for reaching
that audience, including electronic mail, Internet chat
rooms, video games, and interactive Internet games.

More traditional efforts, such as television broadcasts,
person-to-person exchanges, the enlistment of celebrities in
government public-diplomacy efforts, should also be expanded
by injecting hundreds of millions of dollars into existing
programs that have, says the report, become "anemic" since
the Cold War.

The president should also establish a new deputy national
security adviser for strategic communication post in the
White House, as well as a "strategic communication
committee" within the National Security Council on which
senior representatives from all relevant agencies should
serve, it proposes.

Congress should also establish a Center for Strategic
Communication modeled after the National Endowment for
Democracy that, among other things, would act as a
think-tank devising new programs, such as a children's
television series in Arabic, to communicate core messages.

(Inter Press Service)
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#4553 Bader

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Posted 04 December 2004 - 05:34 PM

Howdy Guys,

Another option for troops to go home is because there might be a civil war. Or to prevent one. Or a psychological move to get the
people behind the existing govt and emphasise how the pro-US
would drag Ukraine further into the quicksands of Iraq.

Asia News article:
This is largely seeing through US eyes. The invasion like the media problems reflect no planning to succeed, so they may simply want a crisis to justify the use of the ultimate weapons,
or it may be that the planners are intending to wear-out the US
like they did the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. Either way its bad news for the Iraqis.
It was always obvious that there was an intention to destroy
Islamic culture not install democracy. Both the destruction of Islamic culture and US culture (christian) are the intentions for the NWO.
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#4554 donquijote

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Posted 04 December 2004 - 05:35 PM

>>>Isidoro Baltazar <Carrotdandelion@yahoo.com> wrote:
Helloooo!

Yes, I agree with you. We could use bike lanes. However, I usually ride on the sidewalks. I think it's much safer that way. Many years ago I was hit by a motorcycle while riding in the middle of my lane. I was luckily not seriously hurt, but I am not going to risk it again if I don't have to. I don't ride like crazy on the sidewalks, and even if I did collide with a pedestrian I am pretty damn sure there would be less damage than colliding with a two ton automobile.

I can get indignant about this too, but when I am on the street riding, hell if I am going to argue with a motorist behind the wheel. Many of them are crazed. I can relate two recent incidents as a pedestrian. One where I was walking in a mall parking lot. I was proceeding with caution and crossing an entrance to a store lot. As I crossed a driver headed for me. We made eye contact but he headed toward me just the same. He nearly hit me. I, foolishly, became indignant and kicked his tire just to let him know was angry. Well, he practically blew a fuse. He jumped out of the car and was ready to pummel me. How dare I touch his car, never mind the fact that he nearly killed me.

Another time I was crossing the Frazier Street in the designated cross walk. We were half way across and there was a woman in a car speeding towards me, clearly not slowing down for anybody. I was nearly hit again. She zipped by me so close that I was able to hit her side window. Well, she stopped in the middle of traffic, got out of her car and started screaming at the top of her lungs how the was gonna kick my ***, etc. Apparently human lives are valued less than automobiles to some drivers.

Anyway, I learned that it does no good to get angry, obviously, and I avoid these kind of confrontations now. However, hell if I am gonna put myself in harms way if I don't have to.
I also feel justified in breaking the rules of the road whenever it suits me. This may be completely twisted ideology, but I feel the common law applies to me. If I am not injuring or endangering anyone or their property, why should I stop at a traffic light? I'll ride on the sidewalk or the street, whichever is safer for me and those around me. I'll take the middle of a trafficked lane to prevent drivers from passing in my lane if there is no other safe route. If I am ever hassled by a policeman for my "errant ways" I'll ask him if he was ever hit by a car or motorcycle. It's not pleasant, to say the least.

I am a commited bicyclist. I don't drive a car by my own choice. My wife and I own an old car and I used it on occasion until recently. Right after the presidential "election" and seeing the film The Corporation I vowed not to use a car unless it was an extreme emergency. I clean houses for money and get to all my jobs entirely on my bicycle. I would support a campaign to get more bike lanes and would ride in groups to promote such a campaign. However, if I felt safer on the sidewalk than in the bike lane, I will surely use the sidewalk. Any sane motorist would do the same if confronted with the option of driving on a safe road or one where he could possibly be run over by some bigger vehicle.<<<


Howdy Isidoro
Yep, if we live in the jungle, we must play by the law of the jungle. Getting beat up by the lion all the time for doing what's right leads to a little rebellion, and your little outbursts against the predators are only normal, right? ;)

So anyway, your real life stories remind us how bad it is out there. And how badly we are in need of our own facilities, starting with the bike lanes. It's something we can ask the lion for, or it's something that will have to build, 'cause I don't think he's too interested in giving you independence.

I haven't watch The Corporation, but read about it, and posted something at its forum. I imagine it's something like this monopolistic lion...

PS: I congratulate you for deciding to ride a bicycle, so not to feed the lion.:cool:

HOW THE LION BENEFITS FROM THE LITTLE ANIMALS' POVERTY

One day all the little animals went up to the King of the Jungle and complained about their poverty, and in particular about the fact that every time, during the dry season, they had to travel long distances to drink the precious fluid, and demanded a WATER WELL be built for them... They cited how the resources that they contributed to the kingdom were wasted in WARS and EXTRAVAGANT PROJECTS to the tastes of the King... He, however, replied with all kinds of excuses: the lack of resources, that it wasn't a matter of him not wanting it, but that it was a matter of "priorities" --which was one of his favorite words...

Meanwhile, an Owl --who had very good eyes-- had been observing life in the jungle, and thought this way: "Every time there's a dry season the little animals must come to the little dirty waterhole where the Lion waits for them... Had they been well fed and strong, he would have had to run after them and even risk resistance. And, more importantly, the little animals are forced to fight the Lion's wars as the quick way out of poverty..."

And that's how the Owl landed an important --and well paid-- post in the brand new Astronomy Department created by the King of the Jungle --to the effect of exploring life in other planets...
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#4555 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 05 December 2004 - 03:10 AM

Maria Julia Mantille Garcia from Peru,is the Champion of the 54th Miss World Competition, the runner-up Claudia Julissa Cruz Rodrigurom Dominica and the third-prize winner Nancy Randall from the US in Sanya, south China's Hainan Province on Dec. 4, 2004.http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/index.htm
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#4556 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 05 December 2004 - 04:49 AM

Originally posted by donquijote
It can help us explaing why Rome was the first great predator in history. Think about it. It's easier than Marxism, Fascism or anything in between...;)


Minoan of Crete civilization or Aztec human sacrifice rituals, where the predator type civilization.
Today I will move to hyena shekel type of civilization of Near East . -
Where did the idea of borrowing and lending come from?
The numbers from the Uruk tablets indicate that this was a big job -- taxing people and then redistributing the income.
All people, urban as well as rural, tend to lend each other things.
When people started living in large communities like Uruk, they began to live with strangers as well as friends.
Neighborly cooperation appears to be a way for a community to respond to periods of crisis, but loans in which the "gift" is repaid with interest allows a lender to accumulate wealth.
It just doesn't feel right to charge a friend or neighbor interest, because reciprocity was our pre-urban method of adapting to crises.
The invention of interest lending, in the very shadow of the gates of Eden -- may have been humankind's original fall from grace.

The people of Uruk, "the city of sheepfolds," appears to have been the perfect setting for the evolution of the practice of lending money at interest. It was a pastoral society in which wealth, is measured by livestock, "begot" wealth.
Finance began in the ancient Near East because, they symbolically represent units of wealth.

Writing in the ancient Near East was not only a by-product of economics and finance record and ability to calculate compound interest!
But who was making these loans -- and why?

An Ancient Wall Street was found in city of Ur, the fabled birthplace of Abraham.. In an area separated from the main temple complex by the main canal running through town, were buried the personal financial records, along with their ancestors, in the floors of their houses for safekeeping. Most of the text records s were found in the financial district date in reign of the King Rim-Sin (1822-1763 B.C.), , a few miles north of Ur.

The activities of Dumuzi-gamil and other residents of the "Wall Street" of Ur reveal much about the role that financiers played in ancient Mesopotamia. In 1796 B.C. Dumuzi-gamil and his partner, Shumi-abiya borrowed 500 grams of silver from the businessman Shumi-abum. Dumuzi-gamil promised to return 297.3 grams on his share of 250 grams after five years. According to the manner in which the Mesopotamians calculated interest, this equalled a 3.78% annual rate. Sumi-abum turned around and sold the loan to a couple of well-known merchants, who successfully collected on the debt in 1791 BC. Dumuzi-gamil was acting as a banker -- taking in deposits at low rates of interest.
His principal trade was as a bread distributor.
He invested in institutional bakeries that supplied the temple. In fact, he may even have supplied bread to the King," --There is little doubt that Dumuzi-gamil's loan represented the exploitation of the time value of money. When he borrowed the capital from Shumi-abum, he undoubtedly had a plan for increasing his wealth. He borrows against future income, We don't know much about his lender, but, since he charged interest it must have been more than a neighborly gesture. http://viking.som.ya...er1.htm#origins
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#4557 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 05 December 2004 - 01:42 PM

Dumuzi-gamil frequently lend silver to fishermen and farmers apparently in desperate need of silver to pay their temple rents.

On some of these loans he exacted 20% interest for a single month!
At that pace, one mina could grow to 64 in two and a half years! Of the fifteen loan records of Dumuzi-gamil's that survived, most of them were very short term -- one, two or three months.
The price of time was high for citizens in debt to the Ur money-lenders.
The short term loans were clearly for emergency purposes.

In fact, most loans in second millennium Ur were of the emergency variety, not the productive variety.
Borrowing was more typically a response to emergency, and Dumuzi-gamil was probably not very popular with his creditors, given the usurious rates he charged.
The legal limit on interest rates for loans of silver was 20% over much of Dumuzi-gamil's life, -- they simply charged the legal limit for shorter and shorter term loans!
The government failed to regulate the close link between time and money.
Dumuzi-gamil and lenders like him played an important role in the ancient economy of Ur.
They supplied the silver money demanded by the temple -- they enlarged the money supply. Temples injected silver money into the economy by making long-term loans to lenders like Dumuzi-gamil, even at usurious rates of interest.
The temple in the second millennium B.C. may not have been able to allocate perishable goods as efficiently as it could when the city was smaller. Storage and spoilage must have been significant problems for a government that distributed, among other things, bread, milk and beer.
A money economy solved these problems by allowing individuals to purchase the goods when and where they need them.

Ur did not use coinage, they used silver by weight, and often in the form of portable items like bracelets.
Dumuzi-gamil lend this silver.
Merchants kept running accounts.
Certain payments were credited to individuals, "tabs" .It meant that people could recognize "paper profits" - the clay" profits!

These intangible profits were like the tale of the emperor's new clothes. They only existed if people believed that they existed, and if a legal system existed to insure that creditors had secure rights to their loaned property.
Legal codes guaranteed property rights even more than they guaranteed what we call human rights.
For instance, a person had the right to sell himself into slavery, or pledge his liberty as collateral for a loan. :D
In fact, not until the time of the Greek tyrant Solon was the right to enslave oneself.
Solon , known as one of the Seven Wise Men of Greece. ended exclusive aristocratic control of the government, substituted a system of control by the wealthy, but introduced a new and more humane law code.


:D
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#4558 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 05 December 2004 - 02:38 PM

Originally posted by donquijote
Or it can help us explaing why Rome was the first great predator in history. Think about it. It's easier than Marxism, Fascism or anything in between...;)



I oppose that claim ; in contrary I see Rome fights the hyena .

From UR to Carthage;

Carthage became the leader of the western Phoenicians and in the 5th century formed an empire of its own, centred on North Africa, which included existing Phoenician settlements.

In the 1st millennium BC of Phoenician traders, mainly from modern Lebanon were looking not for land to settle but for anchorages and staging points on the trade route from Phoenicia to Spain, a source of silver and tin.

Carthage was accused in antiquity of oppressing and exacting excessive tribute from its subjects. http://www.britannic...cle?tocId=46465 .

The first Punic war was fought to establish control over the strategic islands of Corsica and Sicily.
In 264 the Carthaginians intervened in a dispute between the two principal cities on the Sicilian west coast, Messana and Syracuse.

The first and second Punic wars (264
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#4559 donquijote

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Posted 05 December 2004 - 08:39 PM

> > Howdy Chad
> > I have made no conscious effort to be Machiavellian other than an
> > educated electorate can make a democracy work very well (see
> > Scandinavia) as opposed to an ignorant one (America). Now the great
> > test of a solution is that the poeple like it, and they do, whether
> > from the ghetto (what I call the jungle) or right from Scandinavia.
> > Well, there's two subjects in my fliers (I've put them in fliers),
> > there's a lion (again lie-on) that everybody relates to, and second
> > it proposes 'solutions,' 'options,' 'economic democracy' (chosing to
> > work or not to work for a lion). You see people may not identify
> > themselves with Iraq (after all we haven't been shown on TV anything
> > about life in Iraq) but they identify with the jungle here and now.
> > We may not coincide on a particular solution (after all, that's
> > democracy), but we do coincide on the problem: the hungry lion and
> > the jungle that feed each other.
> >
> > People all over the world identify with their particular problem,
> > fighting the puppet if you will, forgetting about the puppeteer.
> > That's the one. The guy behind the curtains. Expose him, say you are
> > fighting for DEMOCRACY, just the right tipe. Say "no thanks"
> > to "crapitalism"...
> >
> > ***
> >
> > OK, democracy be it, but what kind, American "crapitalism," or real
> > democracy where the people take decisions, politically and
> > economically?

--- In anti-allawi-group@yahoogroups.com, pyropir <pyropir@g...> wrote:
> Just a couple of thoughts re. recent posts.
>
> First, I would like Mr Lion Tamer to define what he means by
> democracy. The word has been so thoroughly used and abused as to
> become pretty meaningless, unless it is made clear what is meant. To
> me, democracy is nothing less than when the population (rather than
> some small elite or dictator) is effectively (rather than
> theoretically) in control of how their society is run. Democracy is
> not when you have elections in which you can only choose between two
> candidates that have essentially the same imperialist agenda (like the
> recent US elections). Democracy is not possible when the media and the
> so-called free press are controlled by a tiny wealthy corporate elite.
> Neither is democracy possible unless the economy is controlled by the
> population, as opposed to the capitalist class or an elite of managers
> and bureaucrats. And there are other conditions for democracy to
> become possible, including minority rights, equal access to and
> control of social services such as education, health etc.
>
> We are told that we in the West live in democracies just because we
> are allowed to elect political representatives - which just happen to
> never do the things that are in our interest. We are told that we life
> in democracies because the press is free to print whatever they like -
> as long as it does not hurt the interests of corporate advertisers. We
> are told that the US is bringing democracy to Iraq, because there will
> be elections soon - just as long as those elected representatives
> don't demand the end of the occupation.
>
> So in my view, if we really want to end this brutal occupation, we
> need to analyse, question and destroy the propaganda framework which
> is used to legitimise the occupation. A good place to start would be
> the ridiculous idea that Iraq is democratic just because there are
> elections (Saddam held elections too, remember, and he got 99% of the
> votes cos he was the only candidate, just like the Bush/Kerry twins
> who were the only candidate and received 99% of the votes.)
> Incidentally, this would also make significant progress possible in
> Western soceity. In my view that must be the real goal of the Western
> anti-war/anti-occupation movement: to change our own society. We can't
> really intervene directly in Iraq anyway.
>
> Secondly, it has been pointed out that Americans care far more about
> the deaths of US soldiers than Iraqi civilians or resistance fighters.
> So what, I ask you? It's perfectly normal that people care much more
> about events that affect them directly. It's perfectly normal that
> many Americans don't care much about civilian casualties when these
> are either never shown in the media, or portrayed as regrettable but
> unavoidable collateral damage. It's perfectly normal that they don't
> care much when these are events over which they have no perceived
> control (remember that the razing of Fallujah was universally
> described as some kind of *necessary* police operation against
> terrorists and not as one of the biggest war crimes in years carried
> out by the US) . It's just Thatcher's TINA principle (There Is No
> Alternative) fooling people. There is not necessarily anything wrong
> with ordinary Americans themselves.
>
> It is not a sign that "Americans" as a people are somehow congenitally
> or culturally morally defective or something like that. This kind of
> analysis, based on ethnicity or culture or nationality only leads into
> a dangerous impasse: it leads to racism and talk about "the clash of
> civilisations" etc.
> What we need instead is a class analysis: the Iraq war and occupation
> is happening because it suits the interests of the imperialist ruling
> elite in the US and the UK and Iraqi collaborator class like Allawi.
> But, the Iraq war and occupation goes against the interests of
> ordinary Americans, Iraqis and most people everywhere. If we do this,
> we redefine what affects us directly and what doesn't. If we do this,
> Americans will realise that every Iraqi death does affect them
> directly. They will realise that for example the installation of an
> obedient puppet regime or the creation American military bases in Iraq
> or the privatisation of the Iraqi economy, which are the real aims of
> the occupation, does not affect them directly, and is in fact against
> their interest. They will conclude that this murderous occupation
> should end at once. If US soldiers realise this, they will conclude
> that instead of shooting Iraqi resistance fighters, they should shoot
> their own generals. Which would be a very good thing.
>
> So, I think that education is the key. Of course this is difficult
> when the corporate media have so much deeper access to people and
> flood them with lies and propaganda. We should think about creating
> alternative institutions for information that we control, like mailing
> lists, websites, community or Internet radio stations, independent
> video production etc. The Internet could play an enormously important
> role in this.
>
> regards,
>
> pir

Howdy
Thanks for the "lion tamer" title. I do like the word "tamer" rather than "slayer," or "hunter" because we can pacify the beast with minimum casualties. Actually the beast feeds on violence and even becomes stronger.

Yep, very good analysis and I agree with all of it. I'd put this way: The fate of Iraq is our fate, and the fate of democracy for them is our own fate. But what kind of democracy?

Well, as you said, it can't be the electoral show they put up every 4 years or so. We don't even change the puppeteer, just the puppet. So it must be SOMETHING IN WHICH WE BENEFIT IN EVERYDAY LIFE. How about ECONOMIC DEMOCRACY?

I'd put it this way: We have a democracy in which we are "free" to roam about while the lion controls the WATER WELL. Yep, there's no other source of water in the jungle and we must come up to him and--after thanking him--be eaten. Sure, some have it easy, but those are mostly the top predators surrounding the lion, or those who receive the largest chunk of the scraps. The class struggle that you speak about.

So yes, we must PROVIDE ECONOMIC OPTIONS for the common people so they have the choice to work for the lion or not. Make no mistake about it, this lion doesn't particularly care about democracy or communism (see China) or religion, he's plain and simple a HUNGRY LION.

I'm thinking here of many options, but COOPS is the main one, which is the best way the little animals can compete with the powerful lion. No lion in them, no politician, no boss... Also society must leave behind the jungle and abandon any acceptance of people without healthcare, education, homelessness as well the hypocritical drug policies that are the scourge of places like Colombia and Afghanistan as well as the ghetto. We must also provide TRANSPORTATION OPTIONS so we are not forced to drive an SUV to play it safe.

And we don't even need violence. In fact, COMPETITION could be the best way to tame the MONOPOLISTIC BEAST. So yes, DEMOCRACY FOR IRAQ, and DEMOCRACY FOR THE WHOLE WORLD!;)

You may see the link called "Economic Democracy" by our associate organization and the "Solution" in our homepage...

http://committed.to/justiceforpeace
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#4560 donquijote

donquijote

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Posted 06 December 2004 - 03:48 AM

Bader, this the very kind of water well we are pushing for. Notice how they created the clinic that was ignored by the lion.;)

ZNet | Argentina
Zanon
by Avi Lewis and Naomi Klein
December 04, 2004

Dear Friends,

Workers at the Zanon ceramic tile factory -- an inspiring,
worker-run factory in Argentina -- have asked us to gather
international support to prevent their eviction.

The Zanon workers' co-operative is called FaSinPat, short
for Fabricas Sin Patrones, Factories Without Bosses. Their
highly successful combination of direct action and direct
democracy is a precious example of that other world that is
possible and that is growing before our eyes.

Argentina's movement of worker-run companies involves 15,000
workers in almost 200 democratic workplaces. It is building
hope and a concrete economic alternative in the rubble of
Argentina's disastrous experiment with neoliberalism in the
1990s.

Recovered companies are run by assembly -- one worker, one
vote. In most of them, workers have decided that everyone
should receive the same salary. They are proving the
viability of an economy run on an entirely different value
system -- and they are growing. In the past year Zanon has
increased its workforce from 300 to 450, a 50% increase,
without the millions in public subsidies given to the former
owner.

Zanon has cultivated a deep relationship with the
surrounding community. For 20 years the poor neighbourhood
of Nueva Espaqa next to the factory has been asking the
provincial government for a health clinic. Earlier this year
Zanon workers voted to build a community health facility in
the neighbourhood and did so in three months flat.

Now the provincial government is threatening to illegally
send in police to remove Zanon's precious machines.The Zanon
workers have told us that a massive international petition
in support of their struggle could make a big difference
with the various levels of courts and governments.

We urge you to sign the petition at
http://www.petitiono...n/petition.html and to
forward this email to others encouraging them to do the same.

Thank you for your time and support,

Avi Lewis and Naomi Klein
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