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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#501 Gil Hughes

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Posted 22 July 2003 - 08:09 PM

Buttersideup
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Thats for verification of statements made and opinions held

This isn,t an AOL chat line

FORUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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#502 rapture

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Posted 22 July 2003 - 08:24 PM

** Perfect weapondry that can control or blow up satelites


** Keep the men men. If Homosexuals want in the military it's madatory they be given front line durning battle- no intentions of procreation, likewise, Seperate Bunks and Showers from the men
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#503 donquijote

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Posted 22 July 2003 - 08:46 PM

<posted by rapture>

Another one of those 'raptures'?

rapture: The state of being transported by a lofty emotion; ecstasy.

Is "ecstasy" that good?;)
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#504 rapture

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Posted 22 July 2003 - 09:47 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by donquijote
[B]<posted by rapture>

Another one of those 'raptures'?

rapture: The state of being transported by a lofty emotion; ecstasy.

Is "ecstasy" that good?;)




:confused: Why would you think I was on ecstasy? Simple logic ? Why save those who have no intentions of procreation?

Why kill off the future? The men and women who will/ or would have created the next generation? Such must be considered? When organizing a army.
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#505 The Beat

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Posted 22 July 2003 - 11:43 PM

Rapture,

That's an obscure thought.

DQ,

I don't pretend to opine about coops. I don't know enough about them. Hippy communes in the US, especially those formed around the late 60s and early 70s, do not fall under the general heading of coops in the more universal sense (at least, not as I understand them to be).

Hippies tried to "recreate" the wheel, as we say. Start from scratch, clean slate, let's do it all anew.

Coops work from very structured beginnings and with clear goals in mind. The comparisons would be minimal at best.

All I said was, "I know of one instance where a commune survived for a while, and could still be out there, I don't know. I can talk about my interactions with them, because I had them (go figure). I can't discuss much beyond that because I haven't experienced it."

However, there were some weird experiences while visiting my dad at the commune, I can tell you that!!
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#506 rapture

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Posted 23 July 2003 - 01:54 AM

In order for Russia to be #1 what number would that make the United States? Would they give the status up with out a fight? Nevertheless, there is Enough nukes between both countries to blow half the planet off, likewise, billions of people- oceans of blood.


Russia, King of the north, the competitor, likwise, thorn to the U.S.A
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#507 The Beat

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Posted 23 July 2003 - 01:57 AM

Rapture,

Don't kid yourself. There are enough nuclear arms to destroy the planet several dozen times. It used to be hundreds, so feel fortunate.
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#508 donquijote

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Posted 23 July 2003 - 02:05 AM

<I don't pretend to opine about coops. I don't know enough about them. >

Hi Beat

I don't think either capitalism nor communism were too interested in people working by and for themselves. That would truly be life without the lion...

Cooperatives
- catalyst for the future
By Acarya Samanvayananda Avadhuta
Cooperatives constitute the mode of grass-roots development. Today, while Europe is moving towards becoming a federation of nations, Asian nations face economic crisis and keep turning to Europe, the IMF and the World Bank to come to their rescue by encouraging foreign investments in the Asian region. This amounts to giving big concessions (i.e. removing national safeguards in the name of liberalizing the economy) to multinationals to set up manufacturing plants for low-tech and high-tech consumer products to be then exported for consumption in developed countries. This kind of over-supply oriented industrial development reaches a saturation point and then sets off economic recession. In any case this export-oriented industrial development helps provide employment in the urban centres. It does not result in the technological development of the developing countries since this is not on the business agenda of multinationals. Most of all this type of economic colonization never remedies the rural areas where the bulk of the population resides and where poverty since liberalization is now most abject.

Essentially this amounts to inviting multinationals to cheaply buy off sick industries in Asian countries. While this might supposedly sustain employment, it will result in economic colonization and crippling of indigenous entrepreneurship as well as the collapse of rural economic and cultural structure. This is especially the case in countries with extreme corruption (like India and other developing nations of Asia, Africa & South America) where all safeguards are flouted by politicians in return for bribes, (not to mention their direct theft of aid money) generating a spiraling amount of ?black- money. This is also an inherent instability associated with dependence on multinationals based industrial development. When the market demand for their products decreases due to over-saturation of the market, they lay off people in the hundreds. Also when they find exploitative regimes where labour is cheaper, they transfer their operation to the new locale without feeling any sense of responsibility or remorse. The present Pacific-Asian economic crisis is merely one example of this. The same scenario is repeated in the industrial heartland of America.

- Shrii Prabhat Rainjan Sarkar

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#509 The Beat

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Posted 23 July 2003 - 02:13 AM

Again, DQ,

I apologize, but I can't adequately discuss more than a "morcel" of all you feed us.
"Essentially this amounts to inviting multinationals to cheaply buy off sick industries in Asian countries. While this might supposedly sustain employment, it will result in economic colonization and crippling of indigenous entrepreneurship as well as the collapse of rural economic and cultural structure."

Here, I'll disagree. I will give you one example of the evolution of modern technology which should suffice to demonstrate all types:

THE CAR

In 1880 who had them? The rich and daring
In 1900 who had them? The rich, daring and some early entrepreneurs
In 1920 who had them? All the above + lesser rich, worldwide
In 1940 who had them? All the above + middle class in Industrialized nations
In 1960 who had them? All the above world wide
In 1980 who had them? Practically everybody in the entire friggin' world

In 1980 who had PCs? See the trend???
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#510 donquijote

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Posted 23 July 2003 - 02:37 AM

<Here, I'll disagree. I will give you one example of the evolution of modern technology which should suffice to demonstrate all types:

THE CAR

In 1880 who had them? The rich and daring
In 1900 who had them? The rich, daring and some early entrepreneurs
In 1920 who had them? All the above + lesser rich, worldwide
In 1940 who had them? All the above + middle class in Industrialized nations
In 1960 who had them? All the above world wide
In 1980 who had them? Practically everybody in the entire friggin' world>

And so the *dictatorship of the car* was established. In other words, in America you either have a car or you are in trouble. How nice that Holland didn't choose that path, but rather decided to have *options*. Europe transportation system ranges from the bicycle to the bullet trains, and that's real good.

Likewise, not everybody needs a computer at home and public libraries and Internet cafes got much to offer. I don't have a computer myself and choose not to have one because I like socializing at the library, etc.

The world won't be any better because we got more gadgets, but because the wealth will be more equally and socially shared. The other day I posted something on Kerala, India, where people were poor but prosperous, chances are having a better *quality of life* than the American ghetto at a fraction of the income.

See what I mean?

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#511 The Beat

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Posted 23 July 2003 - 02:44 AM

DQ,

Sorry didn't mean to avoid talking about the dispertion of wealth. I agree that gadgetland is, and always will be, the United States. We definitely love our gadgets here.

That, in and of itself, is no testament to the wealth of a nation. But as the infrastructure has improved thanks to the car, say as opposed to the covered wagon of the 1860s or the open horse and buggy of the 1880s, so the world infrastructure will improve once again with the computer and its byproducts: Internet, instant global connection, crosspopulation of ideas, 4D infrastructure (as of yet unknown), Universal (in the 4D sense) integration,

A hundred years from now, 2103, the world will look back at us as we look back at 1903.

Think about it!!
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#512 donquijote

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Posted 23 July 2003 - 02:50 AM

<Sorry didn't mean to avoid talking about the dispertion of wealth. I agree that gadgetland is, and always will be, the United States. We definitely love our gadgets here.

That, in and of itself, is no testament to the wealth of a nation. But as the infrastructure has improved thanks to the car, say as opposed to the covered wagon of the 1860s or the open horse and buggy of the 1880s, so the world infrastructure will improve once again with the computer and its byproducts: Internet, instant global connection, crosspopulation of ideas, 4D infrastructure (as of yet unknown), Universal (in the 4D sense) integration,

A hundred years from now, 2103, the world will look back at us as we look back at 1903.

Think about it!!>

Sure Beat, that's why I propose literacy... in computers (see original post of this thread), which doesn't necessarily mean owning a computer per household. The Internet will change the world for the better both economically and politically, particularly through forums like Pravda's...;)

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#513 The Beat

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Posted 23 July 2003 - 02:54 AM

Sure Beat, that's why I propose literacy... in computers (see original post of this thread), which doesn't necessarily mean owning a computer per household. The Internet will change the world for the better both economically and politically, particularly through forums like Pravda's...


Which is why I had issue with this:

"Essentially this amounts to inviting multinationals to cheaply buy off sick industries in Asian countries. While this might supposedly sustain employment, it will result in economic colonization and crippling of indigenous entrepreneurship as well as the collapse of rural economic and cultural structure."
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#514 donquijote

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Posted 23 July 2003 - 03:07 AM

<Which is why I had issue with this:

"Essentially this amounts to inviting multinationals to cheaply buy off sick industries in Asian countries. While this might supposedly sustain employment, it will result in economic colonization and crippling of indigenous entrepreneurship as well as the collapse of rural economic and cultural structure." >

In my viewpoint Kerala enjoys more real development--having invested in education and healthcare--than any maquiladora. Putting together computers in Mexico--as opposed to the USA--only means that prices will go down, but not that the either the people in Mexico or the USA will have any better *quality of life*. I hope Bader's reading.

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#515 The Beat

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Posted 23 July 2003 - 03:11 AM

Not true.

Another technological breakthrough from the 1880s that has improved the world.

THE TELEPHONE

In 1880, c'mon you know the drill.

Look at cell phones now. You have one, he has one, she has one. I don't have one. I am so Neanderthal, that I refuse to have one.

But the world has one. Thanks to the telephone.
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#516 donquijote

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Posted 23 July 2003 - 03:26 AM

<Another technological breakthrough from the 1880s that has improved the world.

THE TELEPHONE

In 1880, c'mon you know the drill.

Look at cell phones now. You have one, he has one, she has one. I don't have one. I am so Neanderthal, that I refuse to have one.

But the world has one. Thanks to the telephone.>

You don't have a phone!? They are a nice gadget.:confused:

I'm not denying the role of technology at all. I'm just saying, education, healthcare, etc. first... technology second. Otherwise the gap will be even wider between a minority of users and a majority of computer-illiterate people. Likewise the Third World doesn't need phones first. If you have an educated community though they can all take advantage of the library, etc.

Look at this summary of Internet and coops...

What are the applications of the Internet?

Innumerable applications of the Internet exist including education; community development; telemedicine; the creation of new livelihoods; telework, trade, scientific cooperation; safeguarding of cultural heritage; media including lobbying; digital libraries including on-line databases; governance and a variety of sector specific services such as home banking, etc.

Farmer cooperatives are using the Internet to strengthen the competitive edge of the individual farmers. For example, the Federation of Swedish Farmers LRF initiated a project in 1996 aimed at increasing the percentage of connected farmers and of farmers with computers. At the start of the project 30% of farmer members owned a computer with only 1% connected to the Internet. Today, over 60% of its over 200,0000 members have a computer and over 40% of these are connected to Internet.

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#517 The Beat

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Posted 23 July 2003 - 03:29 AM

Hey, DQ,

I am not negating the requirements, Social causes first.

Of course, the masses must be considered. If it doesn't help all, then it is useless. But this doesn't mean that there can be a degree of difference, as in the purchase of a plane ticket.
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#518 donquijote

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Posted 23 July 2003 - 03:51 AM

<I am not negating the requirements, Social causes first.>

We agree.

<Of course, the masses must be considered. If it doesn't help all, then it is useless. But this doesn't mean that there can be a degree of difference, as in the purchase of a plane ticket.>

We agree. The Scandinavian system shows just that, and it can can be improved even further.

Latest thread on the subject...

http://engforum.prav...&threadid=26813
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#519 Bader

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Posted 23 July 2003 - 09:57 AM

You and Beat are doing pretty good although I favour your perspective. ( not meaning I'm opposed to what Beat has said,
usually everyone is pretty well right in respect to what they are saying, we tend to put values on perspectives, so it's less a case of right or wrong but which perspective is more critical/important) Gadgets are not as important as equiping the basic
human unit with good health and education.
People are the best resourse of any nation and health and education are among the basic investment. Neglecting ones own people and importing the advantaged from another country is a form of treason.
I will never accept the free-market notion of someone grazzing their stock on my paddocks leaving the dung for me to bag and sell on the side of the road as fertizer as my share of foreign
investment. That's also treason in my view.
Gadgets and technology should be reducing the time ( a valid factor for basing monetary value) we all take to make a living and
improving the standard of living for all. It's not happening anywhere near like it should and that is very much an issue
regarding the Lion Kingdom.
By the way Donq that Beat does pretty well for a guy without a cell phone, don't ya rekkon?

Just received a web site called bank watch which takes interest
in international banks and the environmental and social damage
or threats regarding the same, predominantly in Eastern Europe
and Ex-Soviet Union countries:
active.bankwatch.org is for subscribing (no cost I think) and the
alternative is bankwatch without the word "active" in front of it.
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#520 rapture

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Posted 23 July 2003 - 03:13 PM

Rapture,

Don't kid yourself. There are enough nuclear arms to destroy the planet several dozen times. It used to be hundreds, so feel fortunate.




** Woa, a lust like that, WMD will sell themselves, a lucrative and ripe time, exspecially, since the U.S. has the world tensed, likwise, has made enemies/customers world wide- :D
Putin would be a fool not to take advantage.

If the U.S starts get hot and bothered just remind them of the number of nukes possesed:D

Remeber Bush declared he was on a mission to rid the world of WMD? Was not that the basic public reason for Iraq's fate? So Russia, when is it your turn?
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