Jump to content

Theme© by Fisana
 

Photo

What would it take for Russia to be #1?


  • Please log in to reply
7545 replies to this topic

#5321 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 24 May 2005 - 10:26 PM

Originally posted by Gari-Gari
Donquij,

...oh good to know that Che s grandkid might be following the peaceful non-violence path ? la Mahatma Gandhi. InShalla!

Perfumes are great. What about a combination: "Perfume Banane du Jungle"?
"Exclusif Banane Lion"
"Vaporisateur ? la Banane Sauvage"
"Calmant Lion"
"Banane de Luxe", cadeau pour lion
"Arome Banane Pacifique"



Howdy Gari
You really made me laugh. I can see you a are a pro in marketing.:D

Yep, Che's grandson learned that dressing as a lion was a fatal mistake to face the beast. If Satyagraha is "the way of truth," the li-on is "the way of the lie." Almost poetic, no?

I was just out with the Haitians, and they love the stories, but are lacking in English. Some funny translations were necessary.

Perhaps we can make Haiti the new capital of the anti-lion line of perfumes. PARFUM A LA HATIENNE!!!
:cheers:
  • 0

#5322 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 26 May 2005 - 01:24 AM

If you thought the Banana Revolution was impossible. Ours though is better--and bigger. ;)

"It looks inevitable now that the Ukraine should go through its own banana revolution..."

Well, don't make it an imported fruit, make it a Cucumber Revolution for Ukraine... :devil:


Going bananas in the Ukraine - flora and fruit revolutions of former USSR

Ajay Goyal / TRJ
16 Dec 2004

(...)

'A Russian reformer of the 1990s once explained his belief in western-style democracy by saying, " I never want my children to ask me, Dad, what is a banana?" Many children in the Soviet Union had seen bananas only in school books. The 1991 revolution changed the situation with bananas in Moscow. All kinds of exotic fruits appeared on streets of Russia. Naive Russians, then, did not know that their precious metals, oil and gas, nickel, copper, aluminum, and timber were being sold at throwaway prices for the importation of kiwis and passion fruits. Russia was being robbed for the love of bananas. But it took a while before the economic meltdown of 1998 brought home the reality that the system of governance imported by the fruit reformers of Boris Yeltsin had bankrupted the country.

Five years have gone by since a new revolution started in Russia to rectify that wrong. Russians have understood that it is time to stop the grand larceny, and return some of the national wealth. Perhaps Putin thought he could sell the same idea to Kiev. He should be more worried about an apple, papaya or mango revolution in Moscow, instead. The revolutions of the west that are on Russian door step today will be in Moscow tomorrow. What he should have recognized, before he started, was that there was no one he could trust, no one the Ukrainians could trust, to convey the message to Ukrainian voters. Putin has struggled for five years now to rid his own government of the Russian clansters on retainer to the oligarchs. He isn't half-finished in that job. He should be watching out lest he slips on banana peels left over and rotting from the last decade within Kremlin and the Russian white house. Or perhaps for the possibility that some place west of Moscow, some exotic fruit cocktail is being mixed for Russia, 2008.

It looks inevitable now that the Ukraine should go through its own banana revolution first. The Yuschenko-Timoshenko combine are no different from Russia's fruit reformers. They will try to sell what they can of the Ukraine's wealth to western corporations so that the west Ukrainian people can have the orange juice they think right now they badly want. Whether Ukraine ends up in a banana split, between east and west in the process, is a different matter. And Russia has both the time, gas and the electricity, to wait.

If Putin is genuinely committed to democratizing Russia and its resource wealth, and liberate it from the oligarchs trying to sell it to the west, he should be biding his time. Exotic imported flowers and fruits don't last long in the harsh climate of the Ukraine. The Kremlin backed rotten tomatoes and poison mushrooms when it should have been pickling cucumbers, aiming for elections in the Ukraine, four years from now. Cold necessity will market the cucumber more effectively, when the imported orange and banana will have lost their taste.'

http://www.therussia...711477011479713
  • 0

#5323 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 26 May 2005 - 02:04 AM

http://engforum.prav...threadid=130502
  • 0

#5324 Gari-Gari

Gari-Gari

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 258 posts

Posted 26 May 2005 - 02:21 AM

Assortiment a la Haitienne:
Parfum veritable de SATYALY

Con saludos al Che y tantísimos buenos deseos para su camino de paz.



When you want something, the whole Universe conspires to help you realize your desire.
http://www.paulocoelho.com
http://www.warriorofthelight.com
  • 0

#5325 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 26 May 2005 - 05:59 AM

Originally posted by Gari-Gari
Assortiment a la Haitienne:
Parfum veritable de SATYALY

Con saludos al Che y tantísimos buenos deseos para su camino de paz.



Howdy Gari
The Haitian people are so brave and good people and yet have been betrayed so many times. They were the first ones in America to kick out the European lion and yet they suffered their own beast so badly. Their country would benefit now from the experience of the kibbutz in re-greening the desert.

There's this activist who's trying to do something about it, but perhaps it's too little too late. Of course, for a real solution we need the Haitienne Parfum pour Lion.;)

Hey, Gari, see if you understand the comment at the bottom. Probably Creole, but French may help.

My comment:
"Yes, we need the kind of work Mr. J.B.Chavannes is leading, but WE ALSO NEED LARGE SCALE COOPERATIVES TO SAVE HAITI. Of course, that would amount to a PEACEFUL REVOLUTION, and that's what we propose..."

***

Hello

Mwen pense histoire ou yo gen anpil sens. Men, nou bezwen mete tete nou ensanb pou chanje sa ki pa mache et applaudi sa ki mache nan peyi nou. Mwen kwe tou ke li important pou kritic yo konstriktif et ki ofri alterntif en menm nan pou chemin developman.
Pap janm gen chanjman san DIALOG. En tan ke yon Peyizan, mwen ta renmen konnen kileu Haitiens sans distinction ap pran konsyans ke bon Terre nou yo fini aller nan lanme donc nou pa ka produi anyen. Se sak fait mwen nan Mize nan PAP jodia .
Kote intellectuel peyi nou yo? Espwa se sou nou li Ye!
mesi
Peyizan

http://www.mpphaiti....topic.php?p=5#5
  • 0

#5326 Gari-Gari

Gari-Gari

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 258 posts

Posted 27 May 2005 - 01:42 AM

My, Donquij,

that s funny to read this language! :P
To foster an intercultural dialogue is always an important measure to prevent intolerance and help find a way that both sides can live with.
I know hardly anything on the situation in Haiti and therefore can t comment on it.
I tend to be, on the other hand, suspicious of "large scale co-operatives" BUT it can work out, if the right motivation drives forward the action of the right pple!

Cheers for now
:angel:



"The gift belongs to whoever chooses to accept it. It is enough to believe and not to be afraid to make a few mistakes."
http://www.warriorofthelight.coom
http://www.paulocoelho.com
  • 0

#5327 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 27 May 2005 - 03:11 AM

Originally posted by Gari-Gari
My, Donquij,

that s funny to read this language! :P
To foster an intercultural dialogue is always an important measure to prevent intolerance and help find a way that both sides can live with.
I know hardly anything on the situation in Haiti and therefore can t comment on it.
I tend to be, on the other hand, suspicious of "large scale co-operatives" BUT it can work out, if the right motivation drives forward the action of the right pple!

Cheers for now
:angel:



Howdy Gari
The situation in Haiti is bleak, politically and environmentally. Their trees are gone, and any change for the better must start with reforestation and empowering the peasants through education and coops.

The late Rene Dumont, an expert in the field, thought the ideal coop should not be large, as to make all members know each other. If it ain't the coops, what could it be to feed the people without the lion?

Dumont was ignored in Cuba, and the people paid the price by not having guarapo (cane juice), a juice precious to the Cuban people...;)

This is an article that dates from the sixties:

'In Cuba the late state socialist Che Guevara had to quit the direction of industry, which he had run unsuccessfully owing to overcentralization. In Cuba: Socialism and Development, Rene Dumont, a French specialist in the Castro economy, deplores its "hypercentralization" and bureaucratization. He particularly emphasized the "authoritarian" errors of a ministerial department which tries to manage the factories itself and ends up with exactly the opposite results: "By trying to bring about a strongly centralized organization one ends up in practice . . . by letting any kind of thing be done, because one cannot maintain control over what is essential." He makes the same criticism of the state monopoly of distribution: the paralysis which it produces could have been avoided "if each production unit had preserved the function of supplying itself directly." "Cuba is beginning all over again the useless cycle of economic errors of the socialist countries," a Polish colleague in a very good position to know confided to Rene Dumont. The author concludes by abjuring the Cuban regime to turn to autonomous production units and, in agriculture, to federations of small farm-production cooperatives. He is not afraid to give the remedy a name, self-management, which could perfectly well be reconciled with planning. Unfortunately, the voice of Rene Dumont has not yet been heard in Havana.'

http://www.zabalaza....conclusion.html
  • 0

#5328 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 27 May 2005 - 04:21 AM

Gari, once again I turn my attention to another well known leader, Vaclav Havel this time. After Walesa, Mandela, Dalai Lama, the Pope and many others failed to deliver, it may be opportune to ask: "Where's the beef?" to quote a famous commercial. Well the beef is nowhere to be seen, unless the beef was, like always, shared among the lions...

An irreverent Banana Revolution perhaps is the last hope in a world of camouflage and lie-ons. If politicians are all a problem, some less some more, let's get rid of them, or at least, let's make fun of them, until there's no place of prestige for them to hide.

And if we find that the politicians must be lions in order to survive in the jungle, we may as well find alternatives without them, namely the COOPS. At least you got democracy of the best, perhaps the only kind in them: DIRECT DEMOCRACY.

I'd like to listen the other side of the story if this article is unfair though.;)

There's saying that goes: "Tell me who you hang with, and I'll tell you who you are."

EXIT HAVEL
by DAVID REMNICK
The King leaves the Castle.
Issue of 2003-02-17 and 24
Posted 2003-02-10
On his last weekday in Prague Castle as the President of the Czech Republic, V?clav Havel taped a brief farewell address to the nation and then took a telephone call from George Bush. Havel, who came to office thirteen years ago wearing borrowed trousers that flapped high around his ankles, now wore an exquisitely tailored navy-blue three-piece suit, a white shirt, and a tie that had undoubtedly done its duty at summit meetings and memorial services. A clutch of efficient aides scurried around his office door. A steward with a napkin folded over his arm delivered a glass of white wine. Sunlight streamed through tall windows, and chandeliers lent a glow to the flowers and the Oriental carpets.

The American President might have been surprised to learn that Havel's castle makes the White House seem inelegant, but Bush probably remembered the place well. Just a few months earlier, he had been to the Castle for a NATO summit
  • 0

#5329 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 27 May 2005 - 03:48 PM

Originally posted by agitpapa
Big juicy tomato revolution :kowt:




Everything that's nice and juicy, fresh, or hot, FREE and not "made in the USA" qualifies. All those so-called Velvet, Banana, Orange revolutions led by colorful leaders in Eastern Europe plus the former Soviet Republics qualify for democratic circus, Banana Republics with a new label.

Cucumber Revolution for Ukraine, or Banana Revolution for Central America, or Guarapo (cane juice) for Cuba (the original one), or Jalapeno for Mexico, or Lechosa (papaya) for Puerto Rico, or Arepa (corn patty) for Venezuela (without Chavez), all rescue the folkcloric, cultural, culinary values of their peoples and doesn't trust leaders. Ah, and they provide ample opportunity to "burn the calories."

Here are some ways to do so::devil:

In preparation for the VICTORY PARTY, we are doing the following surveys so there's nothing missing:

GUARAPO SURVEY

Do you like it squeezed by hand or with the little machine?

__ By hand

__ With the little machine

__ Other methods (Explain please)



JALAPENO SURVEY

Do you like the Jalapeno green and small or big and red?

__ Green and small

__ Big and red

__ It doesn't matter so long as it is hot



AREPA SURVEY

Do you like the Arepa dry and cold or moist and hot?

__ I like it dry and cold

__ I like it moist and hot


more...

THE GUARAPO REVOLUTION
http://webspawner.co...ers/donquijote9


Well, you may have noticed a certain Anarchist influence, but it's nice and moderate, "a la Orwell," we may say in culinary parlance.;)


"Anarchism has been written off time and again by politically-minded people as a quaint historical anachronism, irrelevant as the century turns. But the politicians themselves are living out the final sentence of George Orwell's Animal Farm, where the poor creatures out in the yard peered through the windows of the farmhouse, looking from pig to man and from man to pig, but found it impossible to say which was which.
In real life this leads to apathy and resignation as well as to the rise of demagogues and dictators. But if people had faith in their capacity to make decisions, it could be changed by an upsurge of popular self-organisation and inventiveness. Probably every generation has to learn this."
http://www.circlealp...ism_future.html
also...http://webspawner.co...rs/donquijote80
  • 0

#5330 pacific

pacific

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 6441 posts

Posted 27 May 2005 - 07:42 PM

bump-dang
:cheers:
  • 0

#5331 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 27 May 2005 - 10:14 PM

Originally posted by pacific
bump-dang
:cheers:



Well said, Pacific. By the way, are you in favor of the Banana Revolution?;)

Anyway, let's return to it...

fatso wrote:
> Interesting article and a revolution which did
> succeed. I have been to Prague 2 yrs ago and the
> place was thriving. Ukrainian in employ of the
> Chechs has sold me a lovely crystal glass cube
> with image of a Cathedral etched inside cleverly
> via laser technique. People looked prosperous
> and no surprise: did you know that British beer
> drinkers fly nowadays cheaply over there just to
> have a good weekend ? Incidentally, the castle
> looks forbidding but is guarded nowadays by
> typical Shveik soldiers in light blu uniforms.
> What difference since my last stay there, in
> 1969, when the soldiers looked drab standing on
> some sort of wooden packing to stop the dirt
> flowing over their boots. The russkies used to
> march by in troop strength! To top it all, they
> did not give a ****: national flag was torn by
> the wind of November and they did not care.
>
> Now they care very much and they have made great
> strides in the right direction. I wish Mr
> Yushtchenko would heed the Havel example and
> hurry his colossus of a country along.
>
> fatso

You mean another Banana Republic to join the ranks of globalization? I thought competition and unemployment was hard enough already... :(

Well I'm glad somebody else besides me noticed the connection between bananas and revolution...

Bananas and the Revolution
Peter Schata
"There is a long political history behind bananas becoming the fifth most important food commodity in the world. They were on of the first products where no expense was spared to create world markets for this unmistakeable fruit, turning whole countries over to banana production, with stooge dictators controlled by the USA, in what aptly became known as 'the banana republics'. Half a century after the big Hollywood-style banana campaigns, the banana reflects ever more clearly a world economic system concerned only with the kind of 'growth' that means control of the markets and massive profits. What happens to the environment or to the people, who produce and consume the
fruit of such intentions, appears to be irrelevant.

(...)

In our democracies there is little self-determination, and we only need to look at poverty and unemployment in Europe as well, to raise doubts as to what is meant by 'free trade'. Such distortions of language that hoodwink millions of people into accepting their lot, need to be challenged and overturned. New language means new ideas, new concepts. This is the revolution. We are this revolution!

Such a revolution is especially important if we are to find ways to shift from the current forms of egocentric globalisation to a global society that recognises the actual interrelatedness of all human beings as well as our interconnectedness with the planet that supports us."
http://apm.brookes.a...tion schata.htm
  • 0

#5332 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 27 May 2005 - 10:38 PM

This ain't in defence on communism, which deserves to be dead and buried, but things could have gone far better with the Velvet Revolution. Well, perhaps that's a job for the Pilsen Revolution... ;)

"The Czech Government generally respects the human rights of its citizens; however, problems remained in some areas during 2001. Occasional police violence and use of excessive force remained a problem. Lengthy pretrial detention and long delays in trials were problems, due to structural and procedural deficiencies as well as a lack of resources for the judicial system. The Government pursued libel and slander cases against a number of journalists. There are some limits on freedom of association for groups that promote racial hatred and intolerance. During the year, some Roma were prevented from emigrating. There is some violence and discrimination against women. Discrimination and occasional skinhead violence against the Romani community remained problems. There were reports that employers attempted to prevent the formation of collective bargaining agreements. Trafficking in women and children was a problem."

Source: U.S. Department of State

http://jurist.law.pi...world/czech.htm
  • 0

#5333 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 28 May 2005 - 02:58 AM

Originally posted by bullypulpiteer
and in Belarus ?

do you think the old lady pensioners will abandon lukashenko soon, for bananas ?



Old people will have no vote in the Banana/Cucumber Revolution. The Bushes (George and Jeb) rode to office with the old Cuban-American vote and now abandoned them to private healthcare (HMO). But they will die anyway soon and will leave us with the Iraqi war quagmire.

It's ironic that the elderly still get the lion's share of the budget while many children in America go without adequate healthcare, including prenatal care.

It is the young who will own the revolution and will have the courage to come out of the jungle. The old will tend the many children of the revolution, in exchange for all services including a dignified pension, and free and comprehensive medical care. And best of all, they won't live in fear.

As for the name, how about the Machanka Revolution?:cheers:
  • 0

#5334 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 28 May 2005 - 01:14 PM

Komin wrote:
> without the OiL money , Venezuela is unable to practise any revolutions
> .

Then revolutions are dependent on oil... :(

No way, revolutions depend on education, creating ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITIES (particularly the coops), liberating not restricting freedoms, and their association with Cuba doesn't augur well. But most of all, they liberate you from all lions.

The real revolution I see (the Arepa Revolution for Venezuela) is one where women rule not some King of the Jungle, testosterone-filled, macho-men caudillo...


There's no lion in Scandinavia, just maybe a lioness...

In this interview Ms Eisler argues that the "dominator model" is behind both Capitalism and Communism, and that only in Scandinavia women have reached a high standard of liberation. She argues that such system could be followed in a "partnership model"...

LONDON: You referred to the shift that took place as we moved from a social order based on partnership and equality to one based on domination and violence. Your research suggests that this shift was one of the defining moments of our history as a species. How did you come to that realization?

EISLER: Well, it was really through the process of simple observation, free from what I think of as "the blinkers" that have impeded scientists from seeing the whole picture. My model is one that takes a dynamic view of human society and culture, and what I began to see in my historical research were patterns that had not been visible before -- connections between different elements of social systems. For example, I saw that in tribal societies and in highly advanced industrialized societies, the more that society was rigidly male-dominated, the more it went along with a strong-man-rule approach in the family and the state, and the more it accepted institutionalized social violence -- from child-beating and wife-beating to warfare -- as part of the social system.

As you move to the other side of the spectrum -- say, for example, the Scandinavian bloc countries in our time where you have a much more equal partnership between men and women -- you find a guidance-system of more stereotypically feminine values. There is funding for "women's work" -- taking care of children, caring for people's health, caring for the environment. There is economic and political democracy. It is not coincidental that the first peace academies came out of the Scandinavian bloc countries. Why? Because they are oriented more to the partnership configuration.

This model has been very useful to many people around the world for getting beyond the old categories which don't help us, such as capitalist vs. communist, the developed world and the developing world, and so on.
  • 0

#5335 Gari-Gari

Gari-Gari

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 258 posts

Posted 28 May 2005 - 08:26 PM

Hi Donquij,

thank you very much for posting the article by David Remnick about Havel leaving office.
I really enjoy reading this article a great deal. I have thought a lot about if I possibly know David Remnick but I don t. However, the way he describes the farewell events and the personal friends of Havel (Oldrich Cerny, Jiri Pehe) and his wife Dasa Havlová are very accurate in my perception. Perhaps I should add that the author did not add some hints for the reader to understand the Czech way of being and how the events and Havel fit into the picture of trying to make the best of a situation of social repression under the communist regime.

I don t find anything offensive about Havel in this article. It simply is like this: Havel is, first of all, a "artist", a writer, and an actor, too...
The author failed to underline the characteristic softness of Havel s spirit, his loving manner. It is an exceptional character trait that will not be found among many people, and less among politicians. There is no second of doubt for me that Havel always aimed at making a morally stainless politics.
At the same time it is clear that this is very difficult to do with powerful political contrahents as he had, such as the popular yet tough-faced, arrogant and stealern Klaus.

I am not speaking in favor of or against a party line here but this is an observation about characters. Havel was committed to values, while Klaus is rightly being called a turning head, building his political power on an undercover-cooperation with the communists. (I know this for sure because I worked for an institution with close indirect ties to Klaus - which made me aware of such under-surface realities).

People who love art and beauty are more likely to have good thoughts. I don t see any wrong in that Havel cared for the interior of the castle and for providing good looking outfits to the castle guards. Promotion of art and artists is a important issue in the Czech Republic. For decades artists were not allowed to work freely or sell their art. Havel bought many pictures, sculptures and furniture made by Czech artists helping them to become known internationally. The Castle interior was a masterpiece of old and modern art when Havel left office. It will not be now anymore, as Klaus seems to have thrown out part of the most beautiful pieces.
The Castle guards became a major tourist attraction in Prague, thanks to Havel. It braught a lot of money which was needed in the Czech Republic. Under Klaus, however, guards will use up these uniforms and won t get a proper outfit provided anymore. Well, details, that you might find unimportant...

Donquij, when I say Havel is ok, then I mean his general outline in politics, his motivation and his acting as a person.

Of course, he committed quite some errors. One of them is his over-adoration of the US. He loved the US model of government yet he did not realize that it was incompatible with important politicial convictions he had.

There were two big deceptions with Havel in these last years when he was in office:
1. He was one of the first to sign a statement that he was with Bush, in favor of a war in Iraq. It is unclear how he could have done such a barbarity. There was no evident mayority of Czech people in favor of an Iraq war.
2. He provided a great show for B. during the Nato meeting. I remember streets being sealed for days, just for letting pass freely most expensive cars of rich Americans. The whole city stood under shock.

One note about Karel Gott: He is regarded one of the most talented singers of the Czech Republic. They call him "the Golden Voice of Prague". Gott DID NOT colaborate with Communism. Not in the sense that he was in favor of Communism. Instead, he colaborated in a way of getting a deal with them to be allowed to work as a singer. He probably paid the Communists something for keeping away from his parents and allowing him to leave the country and re-enter again when he wished so. He went off to Germany for many years where he built his very successful career. He was committed to his art and his talent. Not to Communism. They just made it very hard for him. They were after him just because he wore a certain hair style. He was seen as a subversive element. Instead of going to the underground, Karel Gott decided to leave the country and keep in friendly relations with the Communist regime. Otherwise he would not have managed to come out as the artist he became. Tough situation, who might judge??
People know this. Some don t want to admit it because they envy his success.


"Love is the key to understanding all mysteries."
http://www.paulocoelho.com
http://www.warriorofthelight.com
  • 0

#5336 Gari-Gari

Gari-Gari

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 258 posts

Posted 28 May 2005 - 08:47 PM

Your question: "Where is the beef?"

Donquij,
I would need to know more about politics in order to be able to give a good answer to that question.
As I said, I think Havel did pretty well. He is just a human, not an infallible God. And, yes, that was a big deception when he signed that special letter of support of the Iraq war!

Personally, I still believe that democratic governments function quite well here in Europe. - True, there are severe deceptions, too, look at Italy with Silvio B. - But no, I am not in favor of a radical change to cooperatives. I can t picture that system would work successfully right away. Plus: who would be in charge? Isn t there ALWAYS a commander??

The US is a totally different story.
I am here in this forum to learn more facts and opinions and all I can say so far is that I find a comparison with European standards very difficult. Perhaps, it is true that, according to you, the US would be better off if directed by co-operatives. But for that to decide I would need to be more familiar with the situation you are living there.




"Love is the key to understanding all mysteries."
http://www.paulocoelho.com
http://www.warriorofthelight.com
  • 0

#5337 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 29 May 2005 - 03:13 AM

Originally posted by Gari-Gari
Hi Donquij,

There were two big deceptions with Havel in these last years when he was in office:
1. He was one of the first to sign a statement that he was with Bush, in favor of a war in Iraq. It is unclear how he could have done such a barbarity. There was no evident mayority of Czech people in favor of an Iraq war.
2. He provided a great show for B. during the Nato meeting. I remember streets being sealed for days, just for letting pass freely most expensive cars of rich Americans. The whole city stood under shock.



Howdy Gari
Thank you for the thorough answer, but this is the issue that holds the key. All of these Eastern European "democratic leaders" seem to have a slant for America. Nothing original, the overwhelming majority of the leaders of the world do. Perhaps it's an infatuation with "democracy"--or perhaps an infatuation with power and money... On the other hand we got Chavez. His rethoric is full with his hate of America. Is he hiding something?

Where, I ask, is a revolution that is neither in love with America nor hateful of it, as to hide its own mistakes? Perhaps the key lies in rejecting all kinds of leaders, and getting to work for a new world. Then saying NO LION (OR FOX) NO PROBLEM may just be a step in the right direction.;)
  • 0

#5338 Gari-Gari

Gari-Gari

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 258 posts

Posted 29 May 2005 - 08:05 AM

Originally posted by donquijote
All of these Eastern European "democratic leaders" seem to have a slant for America. Nothing original, the overwhelming majority of the leaders of the world do. Perhaps it's an infatuation with "democracy"--or perhaps an infatuation with power and money...




Hi Donquij,

this "slant for America" of Eastern European freshly democratic leaders is, I might say, a childlike enthusiasm and emotional enchantment.

I can actually only speak for Havel as a leader because I have not known the others. I am certain that he was and is NOT impressed by power and money. This is not the point for him. It is the FREEDOM, the freedom to live a life as one wants to. He is an artist, don t let us forget this, and he suffered from suppression. He adores what he believes is a reality in America: the thousand possibilities of making the best of one s life, to live as an individuality distinct from other individualities and that so-called American freedom.

Havel grew up in the Czech Republic where in the years of the Communist regime "America" became the symbolic expression of the "other" reality they wanted. America became a myth. What Czech people think of the US has most probably little to do with what is real in America.

You should come to the Czech Republic and see how people who don t know a word of English wear blue-jeans, funny caps, sneakers and T-Shirts with American flaggs and cool words on it. Then also have a look at the new generation of young Czechs who are absolutely fluent in English because they all went abroad to the US to spend a school year there. Then look at the medium generation of over thirty-year olds who preferably listen to country music, join around fire places in summer and come to office with a cowboy hat!!!

This is a blind sticking to something they have never looked at closely but which they like because, conceptually, it represents the other side of the medal to Communism.

It is a ridiculously childish adoration. Nothing else. Look at Havel, he hardly speaks a word in English. It took many years before he had a chance to visit the US. He did his best. There are just some things he did not have a chance to learn about earlier.

By the way, the hamburger industry is having a great success from the Czech readiness to adopt the American way of life. Plenty of US food-chains bought up Prague s nicest locations in the center of the town.


"Love is the key to understanding all mysteries."
http://www.paulocoelho.com
http://www.warrioroftheligh.com
  • 0

#5339 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 29 May 2005 - 08:40 AM

MirTopolskiRexPrez wrote:
> donquijote1954 wrote:
> > All of these Eastern European "democratic leaders" seem to have a
> > slant for America. Nothing original, the overwhelming majority of the
> > leaders of the world do. Perhaps it's an infatuation with
> > "democracy"--or perhaps an infatuation with power and money...
>
> Not quite so. Those former Soviet puppets are just eternal *** lickers.
> Now that SU's dead they enjoy US dominance ...

Not far from the truth. But I don't think they had much of a choice before.

Nor do they have it now. I mean they could have chosen to be real independent, but it would have meant to be international pariahs.

>
> > On the
> > other hand we got Chavez. His rethoric is full with his hate of
> > America. Is he hiding something?
>
> LOL. He's not hiding that American CIA & Co tried to killed him at least
> twice! :-D

True, but trying to break with America over Posada Carriles (aka, the terrorist that planted a bomb in a Cuban plane over 30 years ago) sounds like a demagogue's excuse to me or at least an act of extreme sycophancy to Castro. I'd have broken a long time ago... ;)
  • 0

#5340 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 29 May 2005 - 04:15 PM

In the following excerpt you'll see the two types of leadership: female, group oriented like that of the sexually hyperactive bonobo monkeys, and that of the alpha-male chimpanzees, whose terrible character may be due to lack of love. We humas, it seems, can follow either one, so it's up to you to have women running life around nurturing and pleasure or have a war-mongering chimpazee running your life. Well, perhaps, all we got to do is to give the banana to the chimp. ;)

"Richard Wrangham and Dale Peterson, in Demonic Males: Apes and the Origins of Human Violence present the empirical evidence that only humans and chimpanzees, among all the animals living on earth, share a similar tendency for violence, territoriality, and competition for uniting behind the one chief male of the land. [7] (http://www.washingto...emonicmales.htm) And the chimpanzees are man's closest species-relative; humans inherited 98% of their genes from the ancestors of the chimpanzees.

In comparison, the bonobos, the second-closest species-relative of man, do not unite behind the chief male of the land. The bonobos show deference to an alpha or top-ranking female that, with the support of her coalition of other females, is as strong as the strongest male in the land. That is, if leadership amounts to getting the greatest number of followers, then among the bonobos, a female almost always exerts the strongest and most effective leadership.

Some have argued that, since the bonobo pattern inverts the dominant pattern among chimpanzees and men with regard to whether a female can get more followers than a male, humans and chimpanzees both likely inherited gender bias against women from the ancestors of the chimpanzees; gender bias is a genetic condition of men. And the bias against women having leadership as a position of authority crosses all world cultures. As of 2002, Sweden had the highest percentage of women in the legislature at 43%. And the United States, Andorra, Israel, Sierra Leone, and Ireland tied for 57th place with less than 15% of the legislature women. [8] (http://www.ipu.org/wmn-e/classif.htm) Admittedly, those percentages are significantly higher than the occurrence of female chimpanzees becoming alpha of the community by getting the most followers, but the trends are similar in manifesting a general gender bias across cultures against females getting leadership as a position of authority over followers."

http://www.irelandin....com/Leadership

(explicit pictures!):devil:
also... http://www.geocities...c7/bonobos.html
  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Copyright © 2016 Pravda.Ru