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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#601 Buttersideup

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 02:19 AM

*burps like only a fascist dawg can*
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#602 donquijote

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 02:46 AM

<Hey, I said I'd read it, not buy it. >

What you got Internet for? Print it out!:)
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#603 donquijote

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 02:55 AM

<Hello- all of this data is a lot to take in,almost overwhelming for someone like myself. yet I know it's all true. Of course this is happening,it's the natural process where the mighty rule over the meek,as the human race progresses, all this is inevitable.
I would just like to inter ject one thing.
Communism,in it's pure form is the same as Christianity. In that it is a dictatorship.
but with christianity, the dictator is Christ. And he dictates,through changing our hearts to love one another.
The christian concept is that a person could no longer hurt another as they would hurt themsleves. The christian concept is one of heart,ruled by love.>

Hi Elizabeth
Some nice thoughts. The Christian and Marxists theories are not very realistic. We should be more observant of human nature, where both competition and cooperation have a place. Communism and Christianism rely on too much cooperation and Capitalism on too much competition...

< But in the fallen world, communism is corrupt. Therefore it will fail as all the other forms of government will and does. Look at how corrupt democracy has become. It almost doesn't exist.. >

Mostly in name...

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#604 The Beat

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 02:57 AM

Good thoughts Elizabeth.
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#605 The Beat

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 03:02 AM

DQ, good points as well.

I think no ONE system will suffice anywhere. We are just too varied as a species. But a hybrid needs to be found.
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#606 machlud haul

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 04:47 AM

Fair enough! I suppose I was in my defaitist mode again. I probably have quite a Buddhist view of history: it is fuelled by blind passions and is not an encouraging prospect to view and analyze. This is not to say that I say no to action, the opposite: the world is full variously imperfect short term decisions to be made. There is always the least bad choice to hope for. Currently there is the problem of irrational terrorism, WMD (which are sure to be used somewhere within 10-15 years, probably even sooner). Liberia, btw, is burning. Kongo in moral and physical ruins. The world is such a dark place whenever you think of politics and nations... We live in comparatively enlightened conditions, and even in the West the current trends are towards more predatory and hierarchical societies. Hmm, ever since September 2001 I have been in quite a dark mood concerning politics. These winds are quite impersonal and unintended by all - and most if not all individual actions are only increasing the storm, even I think those meant to lessen its force. So, we can debate various enlightened models, but the level to me seems fairly theoretical in the current conditions. But yes, we should be capable of regulating health care without recreating Dickens. The free market enthusiasts must be really enthusiastic about the Victorian era as they seem to want to abolish every reform done since those happy times...
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#607 Guest_Jifster777_*

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 07:29 AM

If Russians want to become as rich and powerful as Americans they have to become just like us. Want to be the best..you have to imitate the best.
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#608 Bader

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 08:07 AM

Howdy Mach-h.

If my overview of the health reforms in NZ was inadiquate,
in response to Sourabh's question, you are free to give a more
complete one.
I hope you do follow up with an elaboration as I was mistified by all your comments.
If it's world goverment you want, you might not have to wait long
as I as very sure its there waiting in the wings once the stage has been set and the pace of change beyond what people have been used to has certainly picked up. The UN has already sorted out a world tax, which once implemented will make it effectively
a formal world gov. There is less peace today after its fifty years
of talk, paper and money.
Your appeal to "accepted and rational structures" as being necessary in a new and better system has never been an issue
as no one to my recollection has suggested there be none, or do away with them, and they already exist in every nation and
collective Union or Federation.
I gave both causes and consequenses, how far back am I expected to go. I dealt with the before and after and If my comments about destabilisation from the last time the free market policies were in vogue, is in issue then you can argue with Prof. Carrol Quigly, Bill Clinton's mentor at Georgetown Uni., I
got it from his book "Tradgedy and Hope", published 1966 by
McMillan Co, NY. He was an academic insider who was able to
study what was kept from the public, but because he believed
the world gov we are heading for, designed by international bankers was in fact good for mankind, he exposed this in part
consequently fell from grace for pulling the curtain back a little.

"western symptoms of the illness are actually less than what went before" ??
It would be nice to get the benefit of your understanding and
perspectives, we never stop learning, so don't be shy.
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#609 Bader

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 08:25 AM

Oh by the way if anyone wants to read Prof.Quigley's book,
I could photocopy it and cut and paste it.
It's only 1300 pages long.


( Keep on truckin or biking in your case, DonQ, I scan and read
what I want from your c and p. or go back later.
I won't compete, I'll just cooperate )
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#610 machlud haul

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 08:37 AM

I just think that my opinions don't really have the necessary weight: I was interested in your observations of modern history, which seemed very perspective (though my conclusions and evaluations would of course differ in many ways). So, it was a bit of a non-starter: in effect I said that this would be an interesting discussion if I would be able to participate in it! I hope you did not get too annoyed with such a silly attitude. As regards the West, I see three main phases of human history: hunter-gathering, agricultural civilizations and the extraordinary explosion of industrialization, liberalization and emancipation of the last 500 years in the West. I don't see much to cheer in what went on previously in those aristocratic or theocratic civilizations and do notice some encouraging signs of reason and enlightenment in our present conditions: such as fairly free debate, scientific research, tolerance of minority groups and general acceptance of at least some level of diversity and freedom from the strictest patriarchal control. History goes on as it does dictated by blind power grabbing and aggression, but at least some of its byproducts have started to be more beneficial than what used to be the case. So it's no turning back for me, only a certain if at times weak hope at least of possible further progress.
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#611 donquijote

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 04:10 PM

<DQ, good points as well.>

Hi Beat, thanks.

<I think no ONE system will suffice anywhere. We are just too varied as a species. But a hybrid needs to be found.>

That's for sure. A hybrid will allow you to choose among different economic enterprises (say from coops to maquiladora:)) the way you now choose among political parties.

I'd argue that having "political democracy"--even if not manipulated--amounts to limited freedom, the lion keeping the control over the water well in a desert environment...;)

POLITICAL DEMOCRACY+ECONOMIC DEMOCRACY=REAL FREEDOM

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#612 donquijote

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 04:25 PM

<Fair enough! I suppose I was in my defaitist mode again. I probably have quite a Buddhist view of history: it is fuelled by blind passions and is not an encouraging prospect to view and analyze. This is not to say that I say no to action, the opposite: the world is full variously imperfect short term decisions to be made. There is always the least bad choice to hope for. Currently there is the problem of irrational terrorism, WMD (which are sure to be used somewhere within 10-15 years, probably even sooner).>

Howdy Mach
Who can blame you for that gloomy outlook.

I believe that since the beginning of civilization we have recreated the hierarchal structure of the jungle--only worst for the lion claims to be the "protector" of the little animals and not the predator. Naturally the little animal suspect that all along, but whoever challenges the power of the King is quickly dealt with. And all is nice and well--except for a few hundred million little animals killed in fruitless wars--until some of those little animals--ignoring the nonviolent way to tame the lion--come up with WMDs. Then the lion--ignoring the safety of the little animals--decides to defend the jungle against all threats... And, unless we do something about it, we ain't gonna live happily ever after...:confused:

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#613 donquijote

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 04:28 PM

<If Russians want to become as rich and powerful as Americans they have to become just like us. Want to be the best..you have to imitate the best.>

Who else has been that "lucky"?:confused:
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#614 Buttersideup

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 04:29 PM

Training the Creatures To Be Vegan's 101
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#615 donquijote

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 04:37 PM

<I don't see much to cheer in what went on previously in those aristocratic or theocratic civilizations and do notice some encouraging signs of reason and enlightenment in our present conditions: such as fairly free debate, scientific research, tolerance of minority groups and general acceptance of at least some level of diversity and freedom from the strictest patriarchal control. History goes on as it does dictated by blind power grabbing and aggression, but at least some of its byproducts have started to be more beneficial than what used to be the case. So it's no turning back for me, only a certain if at times weak hope at least of possible further progress.>

Howdy Mach
Maybe the recent advances were better for some than for others. Say chances are a Zimbabwean may want to differ with you...;)

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#616 donquijote

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 04:43 PM

<Training the Creatures To Be Vegan's 101>

Butter I'm no Vegan, but I don't see anything wrong with that. But another reason to make a change, to be sure, is the food we eat...

PS: Hey, don't complain about it. It is short!;)

From the jacket of the book "Fast Food Nation," by Eric Schlosser.

To a degree both engrossing and alarming, the story of fast food is the story of postwar America. Though created by a handful of mavericks, the fast food industry has triggered the homogenization of our society. Fast food has hastened the malling of our landscape, widened the chasm between rich and poor, fueled an epidemic of obesity, and propelled the juggernaut of American cultural imperialism abroad.

Schlosser also uncovers the fast food chain's efforts to reel in the youngest, most susceptible consumers and hone the institutionalized exploitation of teenagers and minorities.

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#617 Buttersideup

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 04:54 PM

Being one of the better books I have ever read I hate to take exception to it in any way. One thing does bother me. The line "juggernaut of American cultural imperialism abroad" is suspect. When people seek out, even demand products how is that imperialistic? Was it advertising alone that made Levi's and Marlboro's as good as money? That's like saying perfume is French imperialism since it dominates the market.
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#618 donquijote

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 06:41 PM

<Being one of the better books I have ever read I hate to take exception to it in any way. One thing does bother me. The line "juggernaut of American cultural imperialism abroad" is suspect. When people seek out, even demand products how is that imperialistic? Was it advertising alone that made Levi's and Marlboro's as good as money? That's like saying perfume is French imperialism since it dominates the market.>

Hey, not everything is f*** up in America! Levi's can be good, but Marlboro isn't...:confused:

The point is American imperialism exports some these clearly harmful products, often compensating for home restrictions--cigarettes--selling an 'image,' which simply isn't true. And I'm not advocating that they should be banned, but boycotting them--as proposed in the book--would be a nice option. Or they could be taxed. Another long term solution would be education...

This the proposal I make at the original post of this thread...

"Junk food should have a warning label (just like cigarettes), particularly the one destined to children, and also be taxed to subsidize healthy alternatives."

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#619 sourabh

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 07:48 PM

(If Russians want to become as rich and powerful as Americans they have to become just like us. Want to be the best..you have to imitate the best.>

1 imitation is not civilization
2 russians wanna b great too not just rich.......thus America will b the worst choice in terms of greatness
3 even if russians(or any other country) try they cant b like america....................their soul ll stop themselves from fransforming from the status of a civilized aminal to an uncivilized one
:D
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#620 Buttersideup

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 08:07 PM

They still come by every morning to pick up dead bodies in Calcutta?
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