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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#741 GIJOE

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Posted 15 August 2003 - 05:33 PM

Russia, has not been a peaceful place during the last 80 years, and prior to that they had their own brand of madness,
Rasputin, and the like.
Then 70 years of communism, filled with self appointed leaders
warped to the nines. It s time for Russian to join the real world
and have a taste of the good life, As for Europe s treatment of Russia, take a look at GERMANY. the Germans were crushed by the allies in wwtwo yet the GERMANS are driving mercedez benz s and have been living the good live for over thirty years.
I would not think that Russia will get better treatment from their European relatives. And besides from a purely geographical point of view Russia is only 80 miles from American land at it s closest point. Russian would be far better off lineing itself up with their old allies the ones that helped them beat the nazi s to a pulp, The U S A sent countless planes and arms to Russia during the great war, The only European nation to be of any real help during that war was THE UNITED KINGDOM AND
AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND. Thus you have your line up of powers in the coming century....


The U S Russia the U K and the boys down under>
This will be a power block unmatchable for the rest of the world.
Like it not this in probablity inevidable.....



G I JOE
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#742 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 15 August 2003 - 06:06 PM

GIJOE
//It is getting boring reading all this antiAmerican dribble, from war to polution to anything they can make up....//

I think that you are confused; Americans are very proud about their
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#743 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 15 August 2003 - 06:21 PM

Buttersideup, GEJOE;
// How has Europe treated Russia through history, would you say well?//
Previous experiences don
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#744 donquijote

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Posted 15 August 2003 - 07:36 PM

<IT WOULD BE A BREATH OF FRESH AIR, IF ONE TIME I CAN TURN ON THIS CHAT LINE AND NOT FIND SOME FREAK,
BAD MOUTHING THE GOOD OLE U S A......>

That's exactly what we are trying to do at Pravda: Catch some fresh air by getting away from the evening news dribble...:confused:
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#745 donquijote

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Posted 15 August 2003 - 07:44 PM

<It is getting boring reading all this antiAmerican dribble, from war to polution to anything they can make up....>

You forget "democracy"...;)


Operation America Freedom!

Yeah, you heard right... Let's bring Democracy to America! These two
articles proves that the Swiss not only know how to make good cheese,
but also how to cut it democratically... :)

Commonwealth: The Other Road to Democracy--The Swiss Model of
Democratic Self-Government

Edited by Daniel J. Elazar

The late Daniel J. Elazar was increasingly concerned with the
distortions of democracy in contemporary society. In Commonwealth, he
brought together a distinguished group of political scientists to
examine the Swiss model of democracy, in its original emphasis on
community, or the "commonwealth."

Contributors to the volume take the Swiss model as a base from which
to critique the liberal model, best exemplified by the United States.
While it is admittedly the best contemporary example of liberal
democracy, or "civil society," America also displays the problems of
this model. The modern idea of communal democracy has almost
completely disappeared from the United States, contributors argue. In
incisive and cogent essays, they suggest that the modern idea of
communal democracy may not just be an alternative but a needed
antidote to many of the problems with the American system. The
scholars gathered in this important collection explore the question of
how to maintain both community and liberty while at the same time
adjusting to changes in the scale of political organization needed for
economic prosperity and defense. The results yield a unique
perspective on contemporary democracy for political theorists and
concerned lay readers alike.

THE SWISS CANTONAL SYSTEM
A Model Democracy

by Frances Kendall

In this, the first of the "ISIL Solutions" series, we examine the
"Swiss model" of government -- a highly-decentralized system which
Swiss economist Robert Nef more accurately describes as an "ongoing
experiment" than a "model."

The concepts of devolution of power, local autonomy, and participatory
democracy have produced the world's most peaceful and prosperous
country. Of course, Switzerland, with its compulsory military service,
state controlled monetary system, railroad and telephone services, and
taxation, is not a pure libertarian society -- but for those
interested in reining in out-of-control governments in other parts of
the world, there are large parts of the Swiss cantonal system that are
worthy of emulation.

The word "democracy" is derived from the Greek words for people
(demos) and power (kratos). Inherent in the concept is the idea that
ordinary people should keep control of the decisions that effect their
lives. In an ideal democracy, the power of those who govern is limited
by safeguards that ensure that citizens can prevent their elected
leaders from abusing their powers.

SWITZERLAND
Switzerland is considered by many to be the most democratic country in
the world. It is also one of the world's most successful nations in
economic terms. The Swiss people have the highest per-capita incomes
in the world, and Switzerland is consistently rated among the top ten
nations in terms of quality of life.

The key to Swiss success is not to be found in natural resources
(which are in extremely short supply); nor does it lie in the
temperament of its 6.4 million people, who are essentially no
different from the Germans, Italians and French in the remainder of
Europe. It lies rather in Switzerland's political institutions, which
ensure that ordinary citizens are involved in political
decision-making, and that no one interest group is able to benefit
unduly at the expense of another.

A THREE-TIER FEDERATION
Switzerland is small -- about one quarter the size of the US State of
Ohio -- and it is divided into 26 areas called cantons. The cantons
are comprised of approximately 3000 communes. A central or federal
government links the cantons into one unified country, but this
central government controls only those affairs which are of interest
to all the cantons. These matters of common interest include foreign
policy, national defense, federal railways and the mint. All other
issues -- education, labor, economic and welfare policies and so on --
are determined by the governments of the cantons and communes. Each
canton has its own parliament and constitution and they differ
substantially from one another. The communes, which vary in size from
a few hundred to more than a million people, also have their own
legislative and executive councils. The cantonal and communal
governments are elected by the citizens resident in their areas of
jurisdiction.

ADVANTAGES OF DECENTRALIZATION
Embraces Diversity. One important reason for this de-centralization of
power in Switzerland is that, unlike most European countries,
Switzerland is made up of several different major ethnic groups --
Germans, French, Italians, and Rhaeto-Romansch. Over the centuries,
whenever conflicts have arisen between these language groups, and
between Catholics and Protestants, the Swiss have resolved the
conflict by allowing each of the warring groups to govern themselves.
Thus single cantons have divided into half-cantons, new cantons have
been formed and border communes have opted to leave one canton to join
another. In this way the Swiss have developed a system which permits
people of different languages, cultures, religions and traditions to
live together in peace and harmony. This makes the Swiss system
particularly well suited to ethnically-divided countries.

Maximizes Competition Among Policies. Because so many decisions are
made at the local level, the Swiss are closely involved with the laws
and regulations which affect their lives -- and because each canton is
different, they are also able to see for themselves which policies
work best. For example, one canton might have high taxes and expensive
welfare programs, while another might opt for low taxes and private
charity. Each Swiss citizen can then decide which policy suits him
best and "vote with his feet" by moving to the canton which he finds
the most attractive. The result is that good policies tend to drive
out bad.

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#746 donquijote

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Posted 15 August 2003 - 07:57 PM

<based on the mall theory, wherby any country the U S A considers uniting with they must have and equal number of malls as us. At the current rate of growth Russia will not qualify until the year 4022, so ralax dude you ll be dust by then, or sooner hopefully.>

According to the "mall theory" of Armageddon, America is chosen by God to disappear soon...:confused:

Shop, Go To Church, Support Bush's War And Wait For Armageddon
by Saul Landau
April 17, 2003

In my neighborhood of trimmed lawns and two or more car garages, with
one or two more vehicles parked outside the garage, I counted fifteen
American flags in less than five minutes of my slow trot, most of them
new since the US invaded Iraq. One house had a sign with a US flag
waving over a map of Iraq. Americans learn geography through war,
experience the traumas of battle-well, virtually-and root for the good
guys. We know we're good because God blesses America and f..s our
enemies-with the help of the missiles, bombs, tanks and other war
technology with which He has blessed us. Our God loves peace and keeps
us, as Gore Vidal quipped, in "perpetual war." Our God does not like
opposition, from within, or from our former friends abroad. He has
told our leaders, all of whom remain in close contact with Him, to
punish such heretic behavior.

Our God is one of love and compassion, although he seems to act out of
rage and retribution. But some of the media, particularly Fox and CNN,
seem to have found hidden in FCC regulations some clause that dictates
that their major news reporting task is to follow the orders of our
God-chosen political leaders-since the majority did not choose them.
Former officers, like Lt. Col. Oliver North who, in violation of the
law, conspired to sell missiles to Iran in the 1980s in order to fund
the Nicaraguan Contras-another violation of the law-now appear as
honored war experts and cheerleaders for our troops .

(snip)

I have also met the programmed "born-agains," those who believe
robot-like that what they view on TV as current history is the working
out of biblical prophecy. One woman mentioned the battles of Gog and
Magog that must precede the final reckoning. She identifies "100% with
our President." He, unlike the lascivious Bill Clinton, "is a true
Christian." Most of the neighbors with whom I spoke said that the
bloodshed had upset them, but "that's the price we have to pay for
security," one man said as he pruned his roses.

In Iraq, the born-again Christians work with the US military. Meg
Laughlin in the April 5 Miami Herald quoted Evangelical Christian Army
chaplain Josh Llano. "They want water. I have it, as long as they
agree to get baptized," he said. "In so many ways," write Laughlin,
"this represents the true mindset of the individuals who have pushed
this war. It is right down the line with the actions of this
administration over the past three years; recall that, when our airmen
were being held in China back in 2001, Mr. Bush was only concerned
with whether or not they had Bibles."

Nothing in the fundamentalist theology seems to inhibit consumption,
however. These God-fearing people buy gas-guzzling vehicles, pay
Mexicans to mow their lawns and drop chemicals into their swimming
pools and take periodic vacations in Las Vegas-where God does not
always bless them. In church, they listen to the pious sermons about
what being a Christian means in daily life. But their interpretation
of the Bible does not sensitize them to the pain of the Iraqis. I
notice a satisfied, almost smug smile on the faces of the men as they
announce their support for the president and his war like policies.
They repeat Bush's lines about the need to get rid of Saddam's
"weapons of mass destruction" and "we had to act because the UN is
worthless" arguments.

My neighbors have problems, like all people. Their suburban-reared
kids often drink and then drive, use drugs and get caught or fail to
make college-level grades. But many of the parents themselves also
tend to use addictive substances and then go into religious programs
to recover-or get divorced, go bankrupt and even commit suicide. Those
I spoke with consider themselves good people, kind, charitable. Like
many suburban families, my neighbors spend parts of their weekends on
shopping expeditions for lawn, garden, patio and pool supplies, home
furniture, kitchen needs and of course clothing. Most of them cannot
quite understand why some people would protest a war against a brute
like Saddam Hussein in Iraq.

"Those hedonistic terrorists are getting what they deserve," opined
one older neighbor with a prominently displayed flag on her lawn. She
had just returned from her Baptist church service where she prayed for
President Bush to prevail. Later she will take advantage of a sale to
buy her grandchildren some new back packs for their school backs.
"Lord knows, they sure get plenty of use." I nod. She says: "God bless
you!"

In Iraq, Saddam invokes God as well. Alive or dead, his words continue
to call on his people to resist in the name of the Muslim homeland and
Allah. That God has lost this war. Or maybe just this battle for Iraq
in the last days of born-again history?

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#747 donquijote

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Posted 15 August 2003 - 08:43 PM

< I project that US will be last in line of users of hydrogen-powered fuel-cell cars or bio-fuels.
You also must see big disproportion of money standing behind cleaner air and oil industry together with defense.
What money would substitute income of investors in defense industry? Some day the whole world will go away from fossil fuel and US will stay alone in competition for oil.>

Howdy Woj
It remind me of Perot's denunciation of America's "19th century capitalism." I've never heard the word "save" ever used in America. Actually, judging by the high number of SUVs carrying the star-spangled banner, it's very patriotic to waste and put others on the road at risk...:confused:

STUPID UNNECESSARY VEHICLES

This is an interview with Brutus Maximus, who drives an SUV...

Reporter: What do you need that for?

Brutus: I wanna be noticed...

Reporter: Do you realize that you threaten the environment, others on
the road as well as make wars for oil necessary?

Brutus: Listen, I pay taxes so I don't care. Besides the war makes a
nice TV show. Some TV and a Bud, isnt' that life?

Reporter: What do you think of a place like Holland where people get
around by bicycle?

Brutus: I take my bikes in the back of my SUV, so what's the point?

Reporter: What do you do with your spare time?

Brutus: I drive the SUV...

Reporter: Do you ever read?

Brutus: Nah, I don't like to waste my time...

Reporter: What do you think of the future of the world?

Brutus: I never think about it...

Reporter: Why do you fly an oversized American flag on your vehicle?

Brutus: It makes me feel like a patriot...

Reporter: Do you know that the whole world opposes the war?

Brutus: Remember, they are a bunch of anti-American losers...

Reporter: Are you worried about terrorism?

Brutus: Nah, I ain't got an arsenal for nothing...

Reporter: Any message for the troops?

Brutus: Yeah, I want more scenes of the Humvees hunting the enemy.
Hunt'm-down-smoke'm-out! God Bless America!!!

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#748 Buttersideup

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Posted 15 August 2003 - 08:52 PM

Why isn't anyone bitching about porsches, Ferraris, and Big Mercedes....they get no better (sometimes worse) gas mileage than an SUV......

Must be some kind of Freudian SUV envy:D
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#749 donquijote

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Posted 15 August 2003 - 08:59 PM

"Violence does not and cannot exist by itself; it is invariably intertwined with the lie" -A.I. Solzhenitzyn

'The problem with Saudi Arabia is not that it has too little democracy. It's that it has too much. The ruling family is so insecure, it feels it has to consult every faction, tribe and senior cleric before making any decision. This makes Saudi Arabia a very strange autocracy: it's a country where one man makes no decisions.

If this continues, we must protect ourselves ?- by telling the Saudis, and ourselves, *the truth*.

In private, Bush aides have been fuming: The U.S. gave the Saudis intelligence warnings before the recent attacks, but they took no steps to deter them. Publicly, though, the Bush team bites its tongue. We never talk straight to Saudi Arabia, because we are addicted to its oil. Addicts never tell *the truth* to their pushers.

If we were telling the Saudis *the truth*, we would tell them that their antimodern and antipluralist brand of Islam ? known as Wahhabism ? combined with their oil wealth has become a destabilizing force in the world. By financing mosques and schools that foster the least tolerant version of Islam, they are breeding the very extremists who are trying to burn down their house and ours.

But we also need to tell ourselves *the truth*. We constantly complain about the blank checks the Saudis write to buy off their extremists. But who writes the blank checks to the Saudis? We do ? with our gluttonous energy habits, renewed addiction to big cars, and our president who has made "conservation" a dirty word.

In the wake of the Iraq war, the E.P.A. announced that the average fuel economy of America's cars and trucks fell to its lowest level in 22 years, with the 2002 model year. That is a travesty. No wonder foreigners think we sent our U.S. Army Humvees to control Iraq, just so we could drive more G.M. Hummers over here. When our president insists that we can have it all ? big cars, big oil, lower taxes, with no sacrifices or conservation -- why shouldn't the world believe that all we are about is protecting our right to binge?

And so the circle is complete: President Bush won't tell Americans *the truth*, so we won't tell Saudis *the truth*, so they won't tell their extremists *the truth*, so they can go on pumping intolerance and we can go on guzzling gas. Someday, our kids will condemn us for all of this.'

full article...

http://healthandener...and_humvees.htm
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#750 donquijote

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Posted 15 August 2003 - 09:00 PM

<Why isn't anyone bitching about porsches, Ferraris, and Big Mercedes....they get no better (sometimes worse) gas mileage than an SUV......

Must be some kind of Freudian SUV envy:D >

Perhaps because they are Stupid Unnecessary Vehicles?:confused:
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#751 GIJOE

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Posted 15 August 2003 - 09:11 PM

This is a great place for Pravda to get a good idea of the international perspective, as well as the American attitudes about the this world and the events transpiring in it.
The one thing above all things i have learned on this chat line is.


When i think of it i ll get back to you..



G I JOE if anything it s interesting to see the level of peoples vehemence and frustration everywhere.
Like said in a prior message, GOOD NEWS SEEMS TO BE UNWORTHY OF CONVERSATION. HERE AND IN MOST MEDIA S OF THE WORLD..
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#752 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 16 August 2003 - 08:52 AM

GIJOE;
//
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#753 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 16 August 2003 - 09:42 AM

donquijote;
When average American, says that he is not interested in politics how you would bring the ordinary people to keep control of the decisions that effect their
lives?
How you would bring
the ordinary citizens to be involved in political
decision-making so no one interest group would be able to benefit
unduly at the expense of another?

;;; like every man of sense and good feeling I abominate work. Aldous Huxley.
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#754 Bader

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Posted 16 August 2003 - 10:45 AM

Man turn your back for 24 hours and you get way behind.

DonQ: "just as democracy offers a multiparty political system
.....we can expand it into economics"
Right on my man, especially the finance system! Then people can really do what they want (when the Lion can't control the waterhole!)
Yes, the Swiss get it right by allowing holes in their cheese rather than their democracy.

GIJoe: Thanks for the good word for "down under" but when you say that the only European country to be any real help during the war (against Third Reich) was the UK and Aust and NZ,
please remember that the US played a major role in preparing
the Nazi war machine that gave it its advantage with latest tech
and financial support thanks to Wall Street, and the US only
came into the war half way through. Please honour the Canadians next time as well.
The US only became suddenly interested in taking part when the
Communist regime was on its knees, gave it untold material support, which British seaman died to deliver and charged the British for theirs.
But chin up they are a great people, just a pity their elite and their politics betray them (and many other peoples).
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#755 donquijote

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Posted 16 August 2003 - 05:29 PM

<When average American, says that he is not interested in politics how you would bring the ordinary people to keep control of the decisions that effect their
lives?
How you would bring
the ordinary citizens to be involved in political
decision-making so no one interest group would be able to benefit
unduly at the expense of another?>

Howdy Woj
The question being whether corruption is high because people is indifferent or whether people is indifferent because corruption is high. I'm afraid is the latter...:confused:

One thing we must secure is that politics gets *cheaper* both in electoral races and in service, so anyone with good ideas can have a chance and it will not become a license to profit. But it seems Congress will never shoot itself in the foot...;)

IT PAYS TO BE IN CONGRESS
Source: The Progressive

'Parade Magazine' reports that Congress got a 3.1% pay hike this year and is set to get another raise for 2004, while retirees living on Social Security got only 1.4%... Congressional raises have totaled $18,000 per representative in the last four years. Members of Congress are paid $154,700 per year.

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#756 donquijote

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Posted 16 August 2003 - 05:40 PM

<<DonQ: "just as democracy offers a multiparty political system
.....we can expand it into economics">>
<Right on my man, especially the finance system! Then people can really do what they want (when the Lion can't control the waterhole!)>

Howdy Bader
Exactly, then the worse the lion gets the better is for the people who, like us, believe in cooperation. So don't be surprised to see him purr like a pussycat in order to win them back.;)

It's probably the best way to tame him...

< Yes, the Swiss get it right by allowing holes in their cheese rather than their democracy.>

That's right.

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#757 GIJOE

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Posted 16 August 2003 - 06:24 PM

SAY SOMETHING GOOD ABOUT THE U S PLEASE ANYTHING THERE MUST ME SOMETHING ONE THING ANYTHING YOU CAN SAY POSITIVE ABOUT THE GREATEST DEMOCRATIC NATION OF ALL TIME


G I JOE
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#758 Bader

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Posted 16 August 2003 - 08:27 PM

good one.

Democratize the money supply and many things will come back into a just order and keep corruption at bay enough for people
to experience a level playing field that is seen to be relatively level. (we will never have perfection)

When in a democracy like Switzerland where it can be seen what
the public will is then the policy (representing the public will) has the authority to been granted its financial sanction, just as Bills
become Law on being granted legal sanction.
The person/s in office who act as the checkand balance against the Executive will sign the policy/Bill for its adoption. The
check and balance (down under we have Governor Generals who theoretically do that) shouldn't sanction what hasn't been kissed
by the public. For any gov. to achieve "clearance" they need to
create means by which they can show public consultation-support.
The current form of party politics whereby they tell the public what they want in an election is worthless because they haven't been elected on what the public want. So the whole political
process has to change from the sham that we have today all
over the world that prostitutes itself to money.
So bring the money supply out of fraudulence and under public
criteria and intergity and private persons wealth cannot buy
the politicians although they can still fund their campaigns.

GIJoe: There are many things one could praise the U.S. for
and the more so the people themselves. Only your friends will tell you when you have bad breath!
I have been close to saying more than once recently that the
USA nation has (has is past tense) been the greatest nation in the history of man. I doubt if they know why and it would make a great thread- "what made the U.S.A. great". But you would have to be a bit thicker skinned if you get it going.
In my view the greatness still exists is in the hearts and minds of the American people and one of the major reasons Sept 11 took
place or was allowed to take place was to begin the destruction of this. The laws being put into place, emulating those that set up the Gestapo in Nazi Germany, the destruction of privacy and the powers to suspend Gov. should be ringing alarm bells.
The shock-horror has perverted patriotism. This old trick of
scaring people into circling their wagons into a jewish gheto menatality where the elite can more easily manipulate major change is still working well.
When one has been to the top remember it takes a little longer to fall because you have further to go.

Regards the appeal of a close relationship between The U.S. and Russia, which has been made several times by different people
on this thread and possibly on another neighbouring thread,
it is good grounds for much speculation. I did do a little thinking
out loud, so to speak, a few posts back regards the possibility
of the U.S and Russia being kept apart because it was quite evident that they were going to become world powers during the
twentieth century and spoil a game plan well under way.
Well I understand that the Czar put his navy on the line during
the U.S civil war which countered certain European initiatives
that were at work to exploit opportunities to establish a major hold in the U.S. (The Czar and family paid dearly for that)
And it is interesting to learn from members of this thread a very
different aspect of life arising from the Soviet education system,
baring in mind that Wall St has had a huge influence on both
nations, so that they were very much in Heleglian dialectical
opposition inspite of the fact that only a slim strip of ice seperates them.
Had a totally different influence been involved in Russia to that
achieved by New York in 1917, like that which reflected the spirit of the American people indeed it could have been a vastly different world today.
Also remember those who have had much have more to be responsible and accountable for. They say it's not easy at the top.
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#759 GIJOE

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Posted 16 August 2003 - 09:48 PM

I have read your post, and I have couple of thing s to say in response.

First my grandchildren tell me when I have bad breath too.
Of course I try not to let myelf lapse into such disregard for those around me and those I love....

However your point is well taken, as it is true.
The United States as far back as i can remember, has not had a more staunch ally then the BOYS FROM DOWNUNDER, and I for one would stand shoulder to shoulder with the Aussie s to protect them and their land. The devils that murdered so many innocent people in Bali, must get a dose of their own medication..
Yes I am not one to turn the other cheek, as i belive that when one does that one get s hit with the other hand!!!!!

Bader, take nothing i say as offensive to your country either
Australia or N Z.

G I JOE
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#760 Bader

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Posted 17 August 2003 - 08:13 AM

Thanks GIJOe,
No offence was in evidence and I in turn never intended outside
of the possibility of truth hurting. The situation has deteriorated
so much generally across the board, we all must be prepared to
accept the reality of the unpalatable intruding into our own governments and social developments, even traditional institutions.
Glad to hear you have taken what I have said.
While there is supposed to be a muslim terrorist war against the U.S. your GIs are falling vicitms to your own military are doing
more than anyone you are in oppositio to.
Regarding Bali did you see the website I mentioned recently-
" joevialls.co.uk/transposition/marriott.html

Culturally we share a lot of heritage.
Cheers.
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