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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#1061 donquijote

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Posted 09 September 2003 - 08:20 PM

OK, Bader, here's some pretty good info on *interest free* banking. Again, back to the practicalities of the solution.

Though if you establish coops for those who want to escape the lion, you think it's necessary to tame the beast by restricting interests on loans, etc?

Question:

More than often, interest-free banking system is demanded in the country. From the other end, the reply comes that external trade is not possible without interest. A mid-way is now being proposed that a pilot interest-free mode is tried in some banks to establish a model. What does Jamaat think was the permanent solution of this problem?

Answer:

To claim that banking was not possible without interest has been proved baseless even in a report of the State Bank of Pakistan. The report informs that -interest- was just one of the many instruments of banking; and 12 substitutes of interest were indicated. The various Commissions constituted by the past governments to suggest alternate modes, have provided detailed structural designs. But none of the governments was really serious to implement these recommendations which in fact, was necessary to understand what were the difficulties by way of introducing the interest-free system. One of the main reason not to implement the proposed interest-free schemes, has been that the privileged ruling class brings in soft loans worth billions of dollars on concessional terms and further extends it to public on exorbitant rates. The interest capital thus accumulated is transferred to the foreign banks accounts of these -Black and White" masters. Currently successful experiments have been carried out in various parts of the world including Kuwait, the Emirates, Sudan and Iran to eliminate -interest- from the economy. Interest-free Banks are already working in Malaysia, Kuwait and Emirates. Al-Baraka Bank has an arm in Lahore also and that provides interest-free venture capital. Interest-free business based on profit and loss proves beneficial in the long run, particularly when business environment is healthy and proves absorbing periodic shocks better than the interest system currently in practice.

http://www.jamaat.org/qa/banking.html

A MODEL OF
PURE
INTEREST FREE
BANKING

M. Sayeed Shingeri

It is a foregone conclusion and there is no second opinion that interest-oriented economy is a social evil-personal as well as universal and one of the most effective satanic tools of exploitation.

Developing countries start realizing the fact but still they find in impossible to liberate themselves from the shackles of
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#1062 donquijote

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Posted 09 September 2003 - 08:45 PM

<the housing costs in the U.S. there was no information as to why the surge in recent years.>

I know. One solution though--whatever the cause--would be the "living wage," which would go up according to the cost of living.

The question though would be: Do we want to tame the lion, or just allow the little people head for the cooperative out of fear? Or is it that the mere fact of competition would tame the beast?

"Companies fire employees, threaten to close plants and they hire trained union-busters to strike fear into the hearts of workers."

Jobs Without Power
Working In America

Jonathan Tasini is the national director of American Rights At Work.

This is the first of a series of bi-weekly columns by Jonathan Tasini called "Working In America."

For at least half their waking hours, the American people live in a dictatorship. At home or in public places, Americans enjoy a measure of freedom and liberty envied by most people around the world: freedom of speech, freedom of assembly and freedom of association (true, John Ashcroft is trying to change all that but that's another story). But, the moment Americans walk through the doors of their workplace, they enter into a world that strips away all their basic rights. Within the walls of the workplace, the whim of the corporation is more powerful than the U.S. Constitution.

Workers cannot say what they believe lest they risk being shown the door. They are fired if they try to exercise their right to freedom of association. They can be secretly monitored via telephone, computer or camera. Grown adults must ask for the right to pee. Having very little power to shape their working environment and subjected to a daily diet of control, oppression and humiliation, I'm actually amazed that more workers have not revolted or even resorted to physical violence.

http://tompaine.com/...re2.cfm/ID/8750
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#1063 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 10 September 2003 - 10:26 AM

//"Companies fire employees, threaten to close plants and they hire trained union-busters to strike fear into the hearts of workers."

Jobs Without Power
Working In America//


Nothing more to add;

//HOW THE BLACK SHEEP WERE EXPELLED

One day the Wolf, who had been thinking how to best eat the sheep, decided to dress as a sheep... This way the sheep trusted the new "sheep" more and more every day, some confessing to him, others voting for him, and most allowing to be trimmed by him...

Meanwhile, the Black Sheep thought this way: "If he got paws and fangs and howls, wolf he is..."

And that's the reason why from then on the Black Sheep weren't allowed to mingle anymore with the simple and common sheep...
Not all Slavs would see the relationship either. Only some "superman" would:

In Woj's words...

"Nitzsche (Niecki) German philosopher of Polish background is right .
Progress is made by individuals. superman- (Ubermensche), not a common sheep
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#1064 Bader

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Posted 10 September 2003 - 10:28 AM

That one flew right over my head WOJ.
I thought you were joking so I added mine. Never heard such
"down-under".

DonQ: coops, finance etc

This is a big subject, take Robert Gilman's ideas on sustainable economics, he doesn't involve finance. To me that like sitting
at the controls of an aircraft with no wings for lift and expecting to fly. More on that later.
Is it necessary for finance to be interest free for coops, to tame the beast, and thus make a way of escape for the animals from the Lion? (your question)

Short answer for me is YES.
The only grounds for interest to be charged in my view is where
someone who had surplus lends to someone in need. You the lender ask for what you would otherwise forgo by not investing elsewhere. But in this case the money already exists.
The common banking system doesn't operate like this, it creates
new money out of thin air and charges what the market
demands. And appart from loans sharks/finance companies you
have no choice but to submit to the legal "protection racket".
The primary question society has to ask itself is: what sort of finance system should we have- how is OUR money (created,
circulated and cancelled) going to be run?
So if its communal systems like coops who have an alternative finance system, I still say no interest, simply because it is pointless for the community to charge themselves interest.
The other factor to bare in mind is that all money in circulation is
principle (remember we went over this before) so how does
society pay back the principle and interest with just the principle.
To avoid a crisis you either have to keep expanding the money supply or depend on a certain amount of exports to bring new money in, which means that the system is not self-balancing
but depends on factors outside their control where exports are concerned or create future problems of inflation where the money supply is continuously expanding along with costs (interest adding to the price.)
Another plus of an inside social credit/finance system is that it isn't a field of speculation where those who don't work play around with the value of those who do work and create wealth
affecting their returns or survival of their enterpise.
For me the abstract money at interest is a bloodsucking system.
For me the employment-wage system of robbing people of their
synergism if they worked in coop is bloodsucking.
For me speculation on a currency that adversally affects those who create which is the basis of the currency is bloodsucking.
An alternative system can cause the tide to go out on both the Lion and the bloodsuckers.

Tame the Lion? I doubt it. May not even starve him but it should break his hold.
I'm with you on the voting with the feet method which is a form
of opposition but not confrontational or involving force.
(just as an aside on the philosophy of this issue, I noted Anna
Goldman witnessed at first hand the folly of the dialectical
strategy, although it was in her upbringing)

The section by Jamaat was amusing and rather revealing. In
Pakistan there were a number of commissions on alternative
financing to avoid the problems of interest but no government
was prepared to make a move! Well part of the reason was
in evidence, but not written to this effect but the upper class
who obviously would be highly influential politically were making money out of bloodsucking the rest by importing big loans from
abroad makingit easy to see how the Lion is well looked after.
President Kennedy had taken this step and created over $4 billion interest/debt free money just before his public murder and Johnson had it all destroyed like a good little servant. Jack and Bobby started to get a grip on that Lions tail. ( but was it for another lion waiting in the wings?)
Lincoln paid for the Civil War with interest and debt free green backs (no doubt Kennedy's inspiration), The Australians paid for their First Wolrd War involvement with interest/debt free money
created by the state Commonwealth Bank. New Zealand got itself
out of the Great Depression by using its Resreve Bank to issue debt and interest free money to get the nation back to work
by building homes, roads etc while everyone else went to war to do it. There are plenty of examples of alternative ways and
exposures of the bloodsucking systems, the rewards in the Lion system for looking the other way, pretending they don't exist
are paying well and doing a good job.
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#1065 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 10 September 2003 - 10:48 AM

//Right, you guessed it: the Eagle! ; //

Eagles are very common birds;
From US bold Eagle, to Polish Eagle in crown, Black German eagle, Italian Silver Roman empire eagle, Russian Byzantium double head eagle ( presented on Forum by Cossack) etc.
Between birds Condor is the one which saw dinosaurs.
Condor
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#1066 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 10 September 2003 - 11:57 AM

There are in general; two distinct modes of acquiring wealth;
The natural; accumulation of things needed for life; grazing, hunting, agriculture. Man
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#1067 donquijote

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Posted 10 September 2003 - 05:28 PM

<"Nitzsche (Niecki) German philosopher of Polish background is right .
Progress is made by individuals. superman- (Ubermensche), not a common sheep >

Woj, you got me there, but *the job of the Black Sheep ends at leading the sheep to power*. I haven't seen many cases--if any--in history where the superman, once in power, has meant much good for the people that fought for him. If he's bad, too bad; if he's good, they get rid of him.:confused:

And there lies the risk of the superman...;)

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#1068 donquijote

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Posted 10 September 2003 - 06:04 PM

Howdy Bader
As always your input enlightens us...;)

<So if its communal systems like coops who have an alternative finance system, I still say no interest, simply because it is pointless for the community to charge themselves interest.>

That makes sense to me. The coops are outside the jungle and thereby shouldn't have to play by the law of the jungle.

<Tame the Lion? I doubt it. May not even starve him but it should break his hold.
I'm with you on the voting with the feet method which is a form
of opposition but not confrontational or involving force.
(just as an aside on the philosophy of this issue, I noted Anna
Goldman witnessed at first hand the folly of the dialectical
strategy, although it was in her upbringing)>

Exactly, "vote with the feet" is the best way. If the policies of politician X don't work, I go with politician Y, and if neither one works I bail out of the system and go to the coops.

But the lion is going to have no choice but to tame himself to win the little animals back... If he doesn't, all the better.;)

<There are plenty of examples of alternative ways and
exposures of the bloodsucking systems, the rewards in the Lion system for looking the other way, pretending they don't exist
are paying well and doing a good job. >

Like you said, the lion is a master of disguises, and the Black Sheep got to blow his cover...;)

PS: I'm gonna look up the Marshall Plan and see the interests on it.:confused:

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#1069 donquijote

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Posted 10 September 2003 - 06:08 PM

//Right, you guessed it: the Eagle! ; //

<Eagles are very common birds;
From US bold Eagle, to Polish Eagle in crown, Black German eagle, Italian Silver Roman empire eagle, Russian Byzantium double head eagle ( presented on Forum by Cossack) etc.
Between birds Condor is the one which saw dinosaurs.
Condor-s simple and perfect constructions let him survived thousand years.
Open wings might have 6 meters .
Another winner with time is shark -.>

Before the Lion there were Eagles and Sharks. Interesting...;)
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#1070 donquijote

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Posted 10 September 2003 - 07:02 PM

I had some gut feeling about this, and perhaps it shows how some countries are meant to become lions while others remain prey (Russia?). In other words, some countries receive *institututions* while others receive *loans* (which of course, are either pocketed by the local elites or "flow out as payments on debts"). Notice the emphasis on 'health, education, and other public services'...;)

I'd sum it up in these words: 'Develop the people first, then the country.';)

"Today's development policy makers focus on much broader range of objectives; these include *increases in living standards (health and education), equitable and environmentally sustainable Development, and an expansion of democracy*."

The Marshall Plan and its Implications for Development Assistance Today

The end of the Cold War, new trends in development thinking, and the mixed and inconclusive history of aid has led researchers to conduct broad cross-country studies of aid's effectiveness in helping development and growth. The conclusion, *ADevelopment assistance is more about supporting good institutions than providing capital* [but providing capitals implies payment of interests on the loan;)]. Money is important, of course, but effective aid should be a package of finance and ideas- and one of the keys is finding the right combination of the two to address different situations and problems@ (World Bank, 13).

Included in this new approach to aid are much broader goals for development than had previously been the case. Originally, development aid was designed to overcome barriers to capital formation in developing countries. It was hoped that public flows of capital would thus boost income levels in the developing world. AAccording to these limited objectives, aid worked: it raised incomes in both the developing and developed world@ (Stiglitz, 3). Today's development policy makers focus on much broader range of objectives; these include *increases in living standards (health and education), equitable and environmentally sustainable Development, and an expansion of democracy*. Of course, aid cannot bring about these changes in and of itself, but it can help.

A key conclusion of the new thinking about development assistance is that aid is much more effective in a good policy environment. Defining a good policy environment as one with Aa stable macroeconomic environment, open trade regimes, and protected property rights *as well as efficient public bureaucracies that can deliver education, health, and other public services*.

Reassessing Aid in light of the Marshall Plan:

(snip)

This does not happen with current structural adjustment loans. What is missing is that conditional loans today do not compensate losers in the reform process. The vast amount of multilateral structural adjustment money going into an LDC today will be used for balance of payments support and will eventually end up as foreign exchange reserves or will *flow out as payments on debts*. The fungible nature of aid flows tells us that money given carte blanch to LDC governments will not, can not, be used as effectively as directly targeted aid. The current system of dumping money in laps of governments needs to be backed up by equal and opposite flows to other actors in the economy. *In light of the Marshall Plan, if the IMF wants budgets to be balanced at the expense of social programs, then part of IMF loan money should be targeted at helping people who no longer have the same social services that they had before*.

Not only is this the right thing to do, it is the only feasible option in a democracy. Democratic governments respond to interest group pressures. Structural reform will never work if the individual interests of different groups are not accounted for during the planning stages of the reform. There are winners and losers to every structural adjustment scheme on record, this is a basic economic fact. At the same time, everyone can benefit from reform in the long run. *Where aid can help bring about structural change is by compensating the losers initially so that reform becomes a politically viable policy choice*.

This suggestion, however, implies many things that might have been unique to the post-WWII environment. First of all, it requires a high degree of planning by foreign institutions in LDC economies. Today's LDC governments may not be as willing to give up sovereignty over economic planning as post-war Europe was. Second, it requires substantial financial commitments by developed countries, maybe not on the order of the Marshall Plan (2% of GDP) but still substantially more than the .25% that OECD countries have been willing to donate in the post-Cold War years. Third, and most worrisome, there is no way to discount the effects of a post-war, crisis mentality on the people of Europe. While the evidence clearly shows that the Marshall Plan was absolutely necessary in making the jump to market organization, there is no way to rule out the possibility that it was not enough on its own. Clearly the disastrous experiences with protection and control during the inter-war period focused efforts toward the market. War-time willingness of people to sacrifice individually for the greater good of the nation also points toward less tangible and harder to replicate forces that might have substantially helped the Marshall Plan.

This said, none of the above conditions implies that keeping in mind the lessons of the Marshall Plan today would not be useful. While they might not be able to institute the type of pervasive and thorough reforms and aid dispersements that the ECA could, there is no reason why multilateral lending institutions cannot learn from the Marshall Plan. The lesson is clear: *aid can help make policy reform happen if it is aware of domestic interest groups and tries to balance their needs with the needs of macroeconomic stability*. [In other words, develop the people first, then the country.]

source...

http://ase.tufts.edu...anjana_2000.htm
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#1071 Bader

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Posted 11 September 2003 - 11:06 AM

Howdy DonQ,

Robert Gilman's work was great for showing how narrow and biased economics is in favour of an elite/lion; and open peoples thinking to what economics should be about but in the end he becomes carried away with Green thinking and goes to the other extreme
and Manfred Maxneef went from the sublime to the ridiculous.
As I mentioned previously Gilman had nothing about how economics should be financed and he certainly saw no problems with the current fraudulent system.
The situation is basically the same as you put when you say no lion no problem. The origin and cause of most of the problems
stems from the finance system and he doesn't recognise that and nor address it.

Marshall Plan:
Typically all these things are always written up as though it is all
about charity eg IMF , World Bank etc. Its about business and I have no doubt that the U.S. taxpayer was the donkey as with the
German reparations after the first world war.
An excellent insight into how devious big bankers are search for
the Louis F. McFadden (Republican Rep) report on the Fed. Reserve
back in 1933 (and things would be far worse today). Needless to
say nothing was done about it since the gov and public were in debt to the Fed. lion
My record show the wed site as - home.hiway.net/~becraft/McFadden.html
but my search facility couldn't find it just now, but search by his name will bring it up. Its a classic example of absolute power corrupting absolutely.
National debt which comes from renting figures on paper/computer is a lean on public and private property and the
future production into the next generation and on. Since the basis
of the credit (monetarised into money) is the people and their
property and enterpise and lifetime then they in their sovereign will (uninhibited by untruths and fables about money) can and should create it themselves, not needing to repay or pay interest as it is their own anyway. (as Lincoln did and Kennedy was in the process of doing when murdered also)
Having done that, then taking the point in Gilmans writing where
he says that coop people have the best record of being naturally more conservatory, less destructive of resources and more responsible, that a publically owned finance system would bring
even more of this to power throughout the economy because
it is a reflection of their direct relationship to the real world around them and its importance to them. When it happens naturally its better than by law or taxes (coersion).
And you don't take the power off one Lion (international bankers)
and give it to another (state), the finance system has to be decentralised-democratised and authorised by the public in regards distribution, then it will be an enpowering servant not
a coldblooded master.
Publically authorised money will be supplied to met the demand made on gov, no requirement for taxes since there is no debt.
The budget can be balanced by similar sets of values as Gilman
has alluded to. The total money supply will be much less over time (less inflationary) simply because the exponential growth of debt/interest will cease to exist.
One question that needs to be answered: are the little animals
prepared to taken on the responsibilities implicated in what I
outlined? Everyone talks about rights in their demands for
democracy but they don't appreciate the responsibility that never
goes away for it to never allow a vacuum for lions and wouldbe lions to fill at the drop of a guard.
What did Churchill say- something like democracy is the worst
political system apart from all the rest.
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#1072 MarquisDeSade

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Posted 11 September 2003 - 01:51 PM

So much so for the discussion and debate for this topic. does it mean that whatever that have spoken can only keep within here and when is it going to end? this thread has been around for quite some time, and both of you have been repeated. i really question your purpose. what are you trying to say here? i do admit you have good thoughts but it seems like thoughts only. nothing more. so what is the use if it's only thoughts. let's hope the words can see the light of the day and,maybe, one day, russia would really be number one.
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#1073 donquijote

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Posted 11 September 2003 - 05:17 PM

<So much so for the discussion and debate for this topic. does it mean that whatever that have spoken can only keep within here and when is it going to end? this thread has been around for quite some time, and both of you have been repeated. i really question your purpose. what are you trying to say here? i do admit you have good thoughts but it seems like thoughts only. nothing more. so what is the use if it's only thoughts. let's hope the words can see the light of the day and,maybe, one day, russia would really be number one. >

Howdy Marquis
It's true we've been around for a while but we try to put out useful information (new, like in the case of the Marshall Plan). True we got no power whatsoever to enforce any of it, but somehow, someday, somewhere, someone will make it happen...;)

Meanwhile the Lion keeps preying on the sheep, adult and young alike...:mad:

> Yeah,
>
> Sweden has all of the problems solved...

Not all, but they obviously are tackling the problem where it starts.
It's like what's better, quit smoking or not ever smoking?

>
> Great comparison, smoking and eating, makes a lot of sense.

A lot of sense. Both of them kill you...
>
> If what you are saying is correct, you think kids are going to read
> the label warning them not to eat it? no.

Kids could easily recognize a label of food, particularly if you made
it visual (say a "!". Otherwise I assume grade school kids to be able
to read, which, of course, can be complemented with diet education at
school, the way they are taught to stay away from drugs, right?

Their parents are the ONLY
> people whose values they will respect, so the parents need to teach
> the kids the importance of healthful eating.

The parents themselves don't have a clue because the system keeps them
ignorant. Can you expect them to teach evolution to kids when they
themselves are being taught to wait the rewards of good--and usually
submissive--behavior in heaven?

It doesn't matter if it
> is ice cream or corn, if you eat too much, you will get fat. Lets
> label corn as dangerous!!

Show me how many obese people are the result of health food? Have you
seen many obese people among natives? Face it, you gotta eat healthy,
and 'burn the calories,' something which ain't easy in America... :(

Don't be so quick to give away our
> freedoms. Pretty soon the lawyers will take them all from you.
> Banzhoff is a freakin' joker. And so are his lapdog lawyers.

The lawyers are currently at the service of the junk food industry,
that's where the "beef" is... ;)

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#1074 donquijote

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Posted 11 September 2003 - 05:36 PM

I don't argue the use of this "reprise," but I'd say this is the option *with the lion*, mine being *without the lion*...

So now the Russian people got three choices:

-Associate with the Western Wolves (keep the status quo).

-Be #1 with the lion (and risk the lion turning bad). Possibly nationalism, communism or fascism.

-Be #1 without the lion (No Lion No Problem). Humanism, democratic socialism and coops.

Take your pick...;)

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#1075 donquijote

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Posted 11 September 2003 - 05:46 PM

Very interesting article...

Foreign Views of U.S. Darken Since Sept. 11
By RICHARD BERNSTEIN

BERLIN, Sept. 10
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#1076 donquijote

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Posted 11 September 2003 - 06:20 PM

Oh, this is so good. Certainly a reward for those patient enough to bear with us. But we are certainly not that boring, are we?;)

Anyways, the first stats shows Russia to be #30 in world corruption (is it that bad?), where Scandinavian countries are the least corrupt. And then there's all kinds of stats for anything you can think of, like Scandinavian countries--again!--being #1 at Internet use, which is one of our proposals of 'literacy in computers'.

Without further ado...:)

http://www.nationmas...graph-T/gov_cor
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#1077 donquijote

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Posted 11 September 2003 - 06:45 PM

<One question that needs to be answered: are the little animals
prepared to taken on the responsibilities implicated in what I
outlined? Everyone talks about rights in their demands for
democracy but they don't appreciate the responsibility that never
goes away for it to never allow a vacuum for lions and wouldbe lions to fill at the drop of a guard.
What did Churchill say- something like democracy is the worst
political system apart from all the rest. >

Howdy Bader
I think the days of the lion are over, for his stupidity is beyond comprehension. Certainly his aggresive behavior and hunger for resources puts the entire jungle under threat through war and environmental catastrophe.

Now, whether is possible or not for the little animals to rule themselves, I rather side with Orwell--the hope lies in the Proles--and not with Churchill--a lion, needless to say...;)

The main task is to educate the little people in the belief that *they don't need the lion*... And they already fear him!

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#1078 Bader

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Posted 11 September 2003 - 07:17 PM

There's your answer MarQ.
Actions follow thoughts.
To progress beyond the smoke and mirrors, one has to see through it and beyond to the real world.
What is the use of thoughts?
Action follows thoughts. They say there is nothing more powerful than a good idea who's time has come.
The Lion conspiracy started with the idea. Escape is not going to
be a dream walk it will have to be conscious struggle.
It's not our fault it is a case of "both of you" this an open forum.
It should "all of you".
What's your action example?
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#1079 donquijote

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Posted 11 September 2003 - 11:13 PM

//-Be #1 with the lion (and risk the lion turning bad). Possibly nationalism, communism or fascism//

<Communism was best system which happened to Russia.
Of course not perfect, but need only some modification. Communism has bad western opinion because helped Russia successfully get on the winning side of competition with West.>

Communism was the best thing that ever happened to... capitalism. It was so bad that Churchill could claim capitalism was better and indeed the Soviet Union imploded from within--all that was needed was a couple of radio stations beaming rock and roll...

Do you see Scandinavia crumbling before hardcore capitalism though? True, there's some erosion but not much and indeed it represents a challenge to the law of the jungle...

< Communism, in addition helped partially to dismantle English colonial empire. .>

And so did Gandhi, which proves nonviolence is the way to go, particularly now that we are threatened by extinction...

<BTW; What is wrong in nationalism? >

Provide me a positive working example. But I can tell you offhand that nationalism is part of the problem nowadays. You can say Israel is nationalist, isn't it?

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#1080 donquijote

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Posted 11 September 2003 - 11:21 PM

<There's your answer MarQ.
Actions follow thoughts.
To progress beyond the smoke and mirrors, one has to see through it and beyond to the real world.
What is the use of thoughts?
Action follows thoughts. They say there is nothing more powerful than a good idea who's time has come.
The Lion conspiracy started with the idea. Escape is not going to
be a dream walk it will have to be conscious struggle.
It's not our fault it is a case of "both of you" this an open forum.
It should "all of you".
What's your action example?>

He's probably trying to figure out what's the reaction of the lion to the arguments of the black sheep.

I can tell Marquis that it should be alright, that the lion threatens us as much by doing nothing as by doing something. And we only mean to tame him...

Anyways, like Aesop said, there's a beauty in adventure...;)

http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote
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