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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#1121 MarquisDeSade

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 03:23 PM

Originally posted by Bader
Thanks MarqDS, and I agree with what you said and now I understand better where you are coming from. I was thinking since your last post that you were probably not so much opposed to what me and DonQ were on about but frustrated and wanting to see some action for real good (not just talk).

"my actions would be to get into a position of power to educate"

When us rebels are few and far between we can only look at
an informal approach to educating people to take the spin out of history, News, formal education etc and see through the smoke and mirrors.
The most powerful medium is the net and (pat on the back) Donq has alread taken action. I have been considering it but would prefer to work in with another or a few. Then you need to click
so to speak to work smoothly.

We all have different talents as well. Someone might say stop all this gobble-degook DonQ and Bader and give me the basic
principles and what it is supposed to achieve and from that they
design a strategy and another person says about b....... time
now I can get on and do something.

No one or few can do it all, wasn't it Shakespeare who said all the worlds a stage and each must play a part. Some of the worst
records of history are the maniacs who thought they and their
comrades had it all.

Thus the human resourses are the greatest and the greatest problem is how to get the masses with all those talents to play
the their part for humanism not Lionism.

After we agree its a maountain, its still a mountain.
What foothill do you suggest we tackle next? ( I might be useless outside base camp)



ahhhh....finally you understood what i have been trying to say all this while. Donq certainly play a very big part in this and all credits to him. as a matter of fact, without him, i wouldnt have knowledge of systems around the world. he introduces me all of these and open my eyes through the net. it is defintely a powerful and efficent medium to communicate. my reality is very much close to russia, china and north korea. i do not know what i can do in real terms beside by getting into position of power which is not easy too.

people need to be know the flaws of the current system so propoganda is important. i go with donq at this stage. it's still early to take another foothill. being in a strategic position will defintely speed up the process of educating the people. anti-WTO organisation would be a splendid platform. let us all each play a little part to contribute and make this a beautiful stage.

cheers
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#1122 GIJOE

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 05:26 PM

Yes I am guilty of overly aggressive stances, this is based on my reading of posts that have truly enraged me, and drove me to answer in the language of the attacking posters. I appologize to all and anyone that I inadvertinly offended, bader included.
As for my terse posts, I take no blame for being to the point.
One of the greatest flaws of so many posters on this thread, are they do not realize others on this line have obligations and jobs that must be fullfilled, and there is not hours of time to read information no matter how pertinent to the conversation at hand. Believe me less is always more when trying to make a point. True genius is the ability to say the most by useing the least........ besided more people will read your entire posts if you keep it TERSE as you said I did in the past and shall continue to attempt to do in the future.

There will things we can and will agree on in the future, as well as positions we take opposite sides on.

I would prefer not to be you adversary.... if at all humanly possible


G I Joe
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#1123 donquijote

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 07:01 PM

<Thank you for your reply.>

Quite welcome.

<I have found out that although we may have different perspectives on given issues we can still be civil to one another here.>

Naturally, isn't that the whole point of democracy?

<How do you feel about posters like FRUNZE AND BIZ AND SOVIET UNION? AND THEIR IDEAS OF THE PERFECT WORLD?>

Can you provide me a webpage or article?
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#1124 donquijote

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 07:20 PM

Howdy, Bader, as always you make another interesting dissertation...;) This time I agree to an even higher degree.

A few comments...

< Many people cannot
conceive of a third or other alternatives because this is Western
conditioning by education, politics and the media.
So economic democracy is such a concept outside the law of excluded middle- dialectic. Same regards the coop, it is mis-understood because it is ''other''. *It is an option that prevents
exploitation of the people by capitalism and communism*.>

I couldn't have said better. In reality *democracy should be encouraging competition so it keeps getting better*. In reality though we have to keep whipping a roaring beast.:confused:

<Dambiec is right about the definition of a coop, its not state
owned like collectives (and kibbutzs)>

I think a kibbutz style cooperative is desirable for some--who otherwise may never own anything. Anyways it can cooexist with the Moshav type--privately owned--and with the Mondragon industrial type. It would be part of the *economic democracy* we have in mind.

<A decision to ban imported raw materials should be up to the
coop not state interferrence.>

I agree.

<Thus we have perpetual revolution/ordered chaos/ law of excluded middle dialectic divide and rule, by you know who.
Imagine what sort of world it would be if engineers were as
deluded as politicians and economists so that bridges, highrise buildings and ships and aircraft etc kept collapsing, disintergarting
etc because of flaws in their conceptions and understanding.>

Very good analogy. But I think the scientists with the most potential are paid to look the other way. Perhaps they go into researching the life of the bees or ants, which is just as interesting as human politics and far safer...;)

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#1125 donquijote

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 07:27 PM

<ahhhh....finally you understood what i have been trying to say all this while. Donq certainly play a very big part in this and all credits to him. as a matter of fact, without him, i wouldnt have knowledge of systems around the world. he introduces me all of these and open my eyes through the net. >

Howdy Marquis
Thanks for your comments. Don't forget Bader...;)

<i do not know what i can do in real terms beside by getting into position of power which is not easy too.>

Perhaps you can be our very first politician, when we make--if we ever do.;) We could send you to study Curitiba and report back. All the beautiful things happening there and nothing is being done about it.:confused:

<people need to be know the flaws of the current system so propoganda is important. i go with donq at this stage. it's still early to take another foothill. being in a strategic position will defintely speed up the process of educating the people. anti-WTO organisation would be a splendid platform. let us all each play a little part to contribute and make this a beautiful stage. >

Act locally, think globally...;)

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#1126 donquijote

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 07:30 PM

<True genius is the ability to say the most by useing the least........ besided more people will read your entire posts if you keep it TERSE as you said I did in the past and shall continue to attempt to do in the future.>

I do try to stick to that (I never go past a few lines) but then add support material which should be taken as optional reading.

<I would prefer not to be you adversary.... if at all humanly possible>

CAN'T WE ALL GET ALONG? ;)
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#1127 donquijote

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 08:05 PM

(Woj wrote)
<Is the democratic voting system sustaining the democracy?

Is even clean democratically elected individual a democrat, when he disregards during his term an election promises?>

Agreed. But there's another method: Jump out of the corrupt system and join a truly democratic cooperative.

<Or is more democrat member of authoritarian regime who fulfils wishes of their citizens? >

And where is this happening, Syria you said?
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#1128 GIJOE

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 08:08 PM

Yes we can be friends.
I can't name any spicific posts re Frunze ans soviet union or biz.
I am speaking of there basic ideaolgy.

G I Joe
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#1129 donquijote

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 08:34 PM

Poll taking place at...

http://engforum.prav...&threadid=34349
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#1130 donquijote

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 09:51 PM

Hey Bader, the kibbutz can indeed offer some ideas for us. Anyways if it can useful for future colonization of oceans and space...;)

Notice the kibbutz taking care of welfare, thus relieving society...

"Food, shelter, clothing, medical care, education, and other basic needs should be supplied by the community."

Editor's note: Colonizing the oceans and colonizing space present daunting challenges--and not just technological ones. The social and psychological challenges will be formidable. Some of Biosphere-2's worst problems, for example, came from unanticipated social disruption and emotional stress. But over the past 50-to-100 years the people of Israel have "colonized" a harsh and hostile land. Their experience, the kibbutz, holds some valuable lessons for the FMF.

A Super-Kibbutz on the Waves-----

The kibbutz is a peculiarly Israeli way of doing things, but a colony in the Aquarian league might be similar in several important ways.

1. It would have to be a voluntary democracy. The techniques of cultists (and the kolkhoz) would be worse than useless in attracting the sort of people who could build a colony on the sea.

2. It would have to be able to defend itself and deal with emergencies. The idea that most adults can act as militia or medics in a pinch is an important and valid one.

3. The colony should start from a "seed"--an OTEC facility and a group of determined people--and grow to whatever size is decided on by the members of the colony. (The largest kibbutz has 3,000 members, the smallest only 50. An OTEC-based colony would probably have to be quite large in order to justify the financial investment. Perhaps organizing by neighborhoods or clans might bring such a large Aquarian society down to a comfortable human scale.)

4. The colony should be organized into production "branches" all working synergistically to help the colony grow.

5. Colonists must be equal in their rights and duties. Absolute equality is a dangerous mirage, but all members of the Aquarian league should be peers. Unpopular work should be shared out as a community obligation so that no one would have to make a career of cleaning drains or washing dishes.

6. Temporary people must have a charter assigning them agreed-upon rights and duties to make sure that an underclass does not come into being.

7. There should be no religious, political, or outside-imposed social pressures, and no law enforcement outside of the agreed-upon community rules. Disagreements should be settled within the community.

8. Food, shelter, clothing, medical care, education, and other basic needs should be supplied by the community.

9. Education, cultural activities, artistic talents, and hobbies should be encouraged. Strong communities are made of strong, talented, and educated individuals.

10. Provision should be made for new projects, research, innovation, and experimentation by setting aside an agreed-upon amount of the yearly budget to look to the future.

In other matters, each colony on the sea must find its own way and build its own community character. This is true of kibbutzim; each community has a flavor or set of idiosyncrasies derived from the people who choose to join it. Our neighbors to the south, for instance, are well-to-do from a thriving dairy industry; their kibbutz is neat, suburban, and a little stuffy. In contrast, our neighbors to the north seem wild and woolly. They do not even have a formal work list--everyone works where he or she wants to. But somehow the work gets done in both places. My own community is unique in that secular and religious people live together. We have a heady mix of native Israelis, ideologically oriented Americans, and Soviet refugees.

Will Aquarius be able to use the kibbutz experience and transform and translate its lessons into a futuristic colony on the waves? I honestly don't know. True, the last century has given us many examples of communal societies that did not work. Time and circumstances have swept them away. The kibbutz has endured, perhaps because it can change to meet new challenges.

An Aquarian society will have to be flexible, forward-looking, and focused from the instant of its conception. The kibbutz developed in response to a hostile environment. The empty sea and even emptier reaches of space are indifferent and unforgiving. They demand that a new kind of society be born. If I did not believe that new society will be Marshal Savage's sea-lotus, Aquarius, I would not be writing this article. I hope that time will prove it is so.

source...

http://www.distant-s...ue1/dsfeat3.htm
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#1131 Bader

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 09:33 AM

Howdy GIJ,
Thanks for the appology, I don't think there have been any hard feeling and I haven't seen it as a case of being an opponent or
similar as one can expect someone to disagree on any thing any time.
It is easy to misread or not understand where people are coming from as well and sometimes a short post don't help that.
If someone asked how long should the posts be, I would reply how long is a piece of string?

Thanks Marquis,
for the confirmation that makes a totally different picture. About
getting into power, generally I think you will find that you will be
expected to sell your natural instincts and values for the party line, and if you don't swim with their tide you will be avoided or beached out of the main stream.
The Net can do wonders in regards helping people to think for themselves, think again or maybe think for the first time (instead of letting the media do it for them).
Even common sense in todays world sounds like advanced wisdom it has become so crazy.

Thanks DonQ,
but no thanks (this time) re kibbutzs. But I liked the bit you said
"..otherwise many may never have anything".
That made me think of a system for training/apprenticeships etc.
Maybe "earn" themselves credits as well as skills to then be
financed into a coop as a "paid-up" member.
Otherwise it sounds like where the lower section of free-market society will eventually end up because they can't afford to rent and live off a pitence benefit. Sorry, that's where its at for me.
The prosperity that is being stolen/denied should be released
to society and this type of society would be to meanial other than an alternative lifestyle/training experience, (could even be a place to habilitate offenders.)
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#1132 MarquisDeSade

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 02:27 PM

Hi bader, certainly my principles cant be kept in place in order to swim with the tide in politics. as politic is politic, this is how you play the game. the emphasize is on the character and integrity of the individual.
the person in power is the most important factor of the system, as in not in the case for swiss. having a tyrant in power would not help a single bit. one example i would cite, given by donq, is curitiba. although the city is not too democratic but the admistration, governor, is working towards the benefit for its residents and community. the governor, jamie lerner, is exemplary. he created a beautiful and happy place to work and live in. is that too much to ask for?
common sense is no wisdom but defintely a basic need. without it, there would be no sense.
for me to be politician? to be honest, i dont know to get there. it is a dream to me. nevertheless, i will give a shot.
act locally, think globally - AGREED.
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#1133 GIJOE

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 03:36 PM

We have to aggree to your lesson of the string...






G I Joe
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#1134 donquijote

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 06:43 PM

<Thanks DonQ,
but no thanks (this time) re kibbutzs. But I liked the bit you said
"..otherwise many may never have anything".
That made me think of a system for training/apprenticeships etc.
Maybe "earn" themselves credits as well as skills to then be
financed into a coop as a "paid-up" member.
Otherwise it sounds like where the lower section of free-market society will eventually end up because they can't afford to rent and live off a pitence benefit. Sorry, that's where its at for me.
The prosperity that is being stolen/denied should be released
to society and this type of society would be to meanial other than an alternative lifestyle/training experience, (could even be a place to habilitate offenders.)>

Howdy Bader
I wouldn't see the kibbutz style coop as 'the' solution, but I do find it useful for certain segments of society. For example, those who have been laid off by the capitalist enterprise, those in need of shelter, those looking for security, those simply wanting to escape the lion. It must be an 'easy in, easy out' system with no training or investment whatsover. What's more, they can learn about cooperation and get motivated to later join a real cooperative, which would represent a greater commitment in the long term.

If we expand the concept of political democracy into economic democracy (where it most counts), we can say the kibbutz would be the communist party of it, while the maquiladoras would be the libertarians' dream...:confused: The industrial Mondragon coops and Danish agricultural coops meanwhile--which would properly fit the definition of coops--would be at the center of the spectrum.

ECONOMIC DEMOCRACY=NO LION!;)

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#1135 donquijote

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 07:29 PM

<Yes we can be friends.>

Howdy GI
If not friends we can agree to disagree and that's quite a bit.

As you may be aware the criticism of American life doesn't always come from the left but also from the right! And that's because American politics not only is bad--power bent, wasteful--but it's also *corrupted*.

Now how about if we both, the libertarians and the left, had room to work on our own ways, leaving out the corrupt foxes?

<I can't name any spicific posts re Frunze ans soviet union or biz.
I am speaking of there basic ideaolgy.>

Sorry to say, I don't have a clue. Tip me in please...;)
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#1136 GIJOE

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 08:01 PM

Yes Donq, we can be civil and dissagree with one another.



G I Joe
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#1137 GIJOE

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 08:32 PM

The people of New York state should hang their heads in collective shame for ever having elected Hillary Clinton to the office of United States senator.

She is far more dangerous to democracy then any personal gun ever was. I FOR ONE AM AGAINST THE CALIFORNIA RECALL FOR A MYRIAD OF REASONS TO COMPLEX TO EXPLAIN HERE, HOWEVER,
A RECALL of hILLARIOUS clinton, WOULD HAVE ME MAKING A PERSONAL CONTRIBUTION FOR HER OUSTER.........

G I Joe
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#1138 Bader

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 08:55 PM

Howdy Marquis,
Well goodluck the world needs character and integrity and if you are determined there is a good chance you will make it. From
a common perspective of politics Down-under many a bright eyed and bushy tailed person has enterred the hallowed halls of power
to soon be transformed into a clone. But there are exceptions
and they do achieve some good things and restrain some bad things.

DonQ: yeah that sounds more like it for me, but the "laid 0ff" part
is treating a symptom of the phoney finance system (sorry to repeat this but is th core of most of the problems) and the objective is to heal not pump in drugs to mask the pain.
There many reforms needed but without the financial reform we
end up merely re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic like the
Lions polies and economists.
You know how corporates run prisons and use them for labor as
the U.S.-Nazi German corps used slave labor, well corps can in due course offer the State a way out for social cost burdons by
building kibbutzs for the "laid off and down and out on the dole
type people to provide food and shlter in exchange for cheap labor. Same world same lion, there was no Numerburg for Lion or his financial and corporate drones.

GIJ: I agree with you on the Clintons
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#1139 GIJOE

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 09:33 PM

There will be more things we can agree upon.
Dialog is the bridge to understanding.

G I Joe
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#1140 donquijote

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 09:45 PM

Hey Bader, I came across this dialogue in which I respond at the end. Did I ever write something this good?;)

> Well thats the beauty of the human being isnt it? That we can try
> anything out and see if we like it, I personally dont think we are
> going to much appreciate the life of "living like pigs" for too long.
> I would go as far as to say, it could be in the best interest of the
> entire world, that the United States continue on its path. Only to
> truely set an example of what definately not to do. People can say; "
> Ow, we dont want to be like that, Of coarse not, I mean, look, OK we
> definately wont do that" lol

The role of the media, however, shouldn't be underplayed... If they
decide to make a Lion look like a Monkey they can... If they decide to
make the Monkey look like a Lion, they can too... Likewise they can
make it appear like, however imperfect, the Jungle is perfectly
compatible with human nature, and if, say, the gas-guzzling SUVs roam
the streets and make the world a pigsty, and the roads a dangerous
Asphalt Jungle, they'll come up with excuses like people want to be
safe or they got a big family, and the world will do nothing about it
because their leaders are either afraid to challenge the Lion or are
part of the power games of the Jungle... In the meantime, nobody in
the media raises the issue of making our streets bicycle or pedestrian
friendly. No doubt about it, my friend, the media is one of the paws
of the Lion...
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