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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#1161 MarquisDeSade

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Posted 20 September 2003 - 02:47 PM

Originally posted by donquijote
"Howdy Marquis,
Well goodluck the world needs character and integrity and if you are determined there is a good chance you will make it. From
a common perspective of politics Down-under many a bright eyed and bushy tailed person has enterred the hallowed halls of power
to soon be transformed into a clone. But there are exceptions
and they do achieve some good things and restrain some bad things."

<Thanks bader. you seem pessimistic about such qualities or that it might ever happen. well, i guess you have not taken a close look at curitiba. please do. it HAD HAPPENED and still is happening. dont be a skeptic. judge by what it had achieve. otherwise you are not giving it due credit. >

Hey Marquis
It's not that we doubt you. We know you can do it. And we can already picture you, whip in hand, fighting the hungry roaring lion. Another easier, but less spectacular outcome though, is that you move to Curitiba. And last but not least is the possibility that we *make it hapen everywhere* and tame the lion once and for all...;)



Hi donq, to be honest, im doubtful of myself. the road that im going to thread is tough and dangerous. there could be a possibility of backing out in future or screw ups.

i was trying to emphasize curitiba to bader and he dont seem to get the picture of the system. it do get irritating that my point is not understood well enough. therefore, i have to repeat a few times but it's okay.

taming the lion would not be possible except it will definitely take some time and if there is a system genuiely working for the benefits of the people. cant we accept it? ultimately, our intention is for the good of small animals and all of the animals. i sure hope one day we can see the lion well tame, but dont forget, there is still a tiger.
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#1162 Bader

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Posted 20 September 2003 - 08:40 PM

Howdy Marquis,

There are always several points/factors in posts and where and what they turn on (response by the following ones) is out of our control. Good things take time they say- it's the theme of a cheese ad on tv here. We are all subject to it.

Curitiba: I didn't say anything to discredit it. I merely gave you a warning of what to expect if you go into politics.
If the Governor or Mayor of Curitba has unlimited integrity etc then the citizens are most fortunate.
However I don't agree with depending on the key person/s in power, look at history, democratic society need principles that they own and people of integrity to serve them by those principles and using their power to protect those principles.
The strength of the people is then within them not outside them.
I would agree with you if you mean that once a society has become good then the type of leaders is crucial.
It then becomes important that the principles etc withhin society
is conducive to the right kind of people coming to power and
difficult for those who are not and have the power to recall if they
are changed by corruption or abuse power or fail their duty.
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#1163 Bader

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Posted 20 September 2003 - 08:55 PM

Howdy DonQ,

150 mil for coops and 50 B for the war (its much bigger than 50 and still growing with no end in sight, reminds me of that saying how long is a piece of string- one answer may be in this case-
long enough to hang oneself)

Also reminds me of the Gangster role Marlon Brandow played in Guys and Dolls. He used to shoot crap with his own dice which had no numbers on it. (do I need to go on?)
Yeah he won the big ones and the other won the little purses
just enough to stay long enough to get totally fleeced.
I often think of that looking at what goes on in the world.

If a machine is unbalanced and ignored its a only a matter of time and it will selfdestruct or break down. Stress will come on some part which if reinforced/try to protect it will then transfer the stress onto another part and so on. Even long distance running teaches that.
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#1164 donquijote

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Posted 20 September 2003 - 09:54 PM

Hi Bader, Marquis

It wasn't more than a misunderstanding, and Bader explained it quite well.

Marquis, he's only saying the difficulty of a single honest man to the system. Like a said before, if he turns out good they may try to get rid of him, but if he turns bad... It's better to build institutions. Let's come out of the jungle. Let's tame the lion.;)

Hey Bader, you are gonna like this...

Capitalism compared to worker cooperatives
Cooperatives can be broadly distinguished between those organised around the collective use of capital on the one hand or labour on the other. Most of New Zealand-s cooperatives involve the former, with shareholders investing funds to create a service to produce a shared financial return. The following focuses on the latter, generally known as worker cooperatives.

Studies have demonstrated that worker cooperatives enable greater participation and profit-sharing by workers, leading to better human working environments and enhanced productivity. It should be noted that productivity can be measured not only in dollars and output but also job security and happiness. In fact, worker-controlled firms out-perform conventional private firms if they have access to the necessary inputs of production.

The higher productivity of worker-controlled firms could attract outside investment (banks, government, the community at large and outside investors). While investors would benefit from higher productivity rates, voting rights would still be based on labour with one person-one vote and not contribution of capital as the criterion.

How can cooperatives be financed?
Perkins of Cornell University suggests that cooperatives be financed by one of three methods:
1) self-financing
2) lease from the State or private holding company, or
3) financing by outside investors.

Self-financing
Self-financing is the way the Mondragon Cooperative Corporation (MCC) co-ops have financed most of their capital needs, and involves members investing their savings to meet the co-op-s need for capital equipment.

However, as shown by the collapse of the Weddell meat works, where workers

lost their savings, wages and jobs, there can be problems. Some of the

issues that self-financing raises are

a) Risk diversification. The MCC has overcome the risks associated with non-diversification by:

*substantial buffer reserves which come from members being required to

compulsorily save a minimum of 40 percent of profits

*organising participating firms into sector groupings that choose to pool

their profits before distributing them to workers. In any given year, if

one of the firms in the group made a loss and the others a profit, the

loss-making firm would still get some of the net pool profit

*operating their own social security system

*retraining programmes

*job placement services to other cooperatives in need of workers.

B) Under-investment. Equity in the self-financing model can be individual or communal. That coming from individual members needs to remain in their hands for them to be capable of autonomous decisions. It implies high individual equity levels, and raises the question of how to maintain those levels high enough to facilitate technical change and to sustain growth.

Communally-owned equity on the other hand, reduces the incentive to invest.

Investment by an individual involves repaying both principal and interest. Communally-owned principal however is not repaid to any individual. Thus there-s an incentive to take higher wages rather than using the profits for the optimal amount of plough-back.

c) Inter-generational conflict. Older co-op members may wish to depreciate the co-op-s stock of equipment in favour of higher wages, while younger members may prefer long-term investment. At Mondragon, with its special conditions of low inter-generational mobility and high community solidarity, older workers have not been preoccupied with short-term personal gain. By way of contrast, at the Vakhrusheva coal mine in the Khabarovsk region of what was the USSR, workers have wanted dividends, high wages and access to imported goods rather than plough-back profits into the maintenance and development of jobs.

d) Inefficient capital utilisation - due to worker inertia and failure to disinvest when returns to capital become significantly low.

e) Over-capitalisation - arises with the adoption of capital-intensive production and is a consequence of workers in a profitable cooperative preferring to use more physical capital than labour so as to maximize income per worker. Apart from having implications for the creation of jobs it can also lead to wide divergences between successful and unsuccessful co-ops in terms of income for workers doing comparable jobs.

Leasing a) from the State, with co-ops retaining full rights of self-determination and access to profits, while paying for capital supplied by the Government. It avoids the issue of inefficiency of capital utilisation, although the problems of over-capitalisation and job restriction remain.

B) from private capital-holding companies, with investment funds coming from private savings and Government savings being used to finance key industries and social expenditures. Private savings would be invested in cooperative banks and loaned to a variety of local businesses that would lease capital. Cooperative banks can fulfil the crucial role of support organisation along the lines of Mondragon-s Caja Laboral Popular (Working People-s Bank), and would facilitate the creation of new co-ops and the exit of co-ops from industries in decline.

Community member investment in several co-ops reduces the tendency for cooperatives to act in isolation from the wider community. Moreover, having local authority officials sit on the boards of cooperatives facilitates the process of economic planning based on the interaction of public and private sector. Using a system of economic penalties and rewards, cooperative banks could help ensure that job opportunities were not being ignored in favour of higher incomes for existing co-op members.

source...

http://www.proutworl...res/whycoop.htm
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#1165 Bader

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Posted 21 September 2003 - 07:42 AM

Thanks DonQ for the comment to Marquis and the post re coops.
There surely is quite a scope to create them and much of the
sections are logical regarding strengths and weaknesses but Perkins is looking at them in the world of debt money system and so if that is reformed then the situation could change significantly.
In NZ farmers formed coop dairy companies through which they
processed produce from milk and created their own marketing boards for dairy products, wool and meat. And fruit of course.
The Govt provided for several decades Reserve Bank credit at one
percent interest to assist this export industry the basis of NZs
means of overseas funds, the one percent was probabaly basically to cover the bookkeeping costs.
When NZ adopted the free-market philosophy/ideology all that
was eliminated, farm subsidies were withdrawn cold-turkey and the NZ farmer living the furtherest away from world markets still
outperformed the greater competitors like Denmark in the field of dairying. Now the Dairy boards almost total have formed a
global focused corp issuing shares to landowners and farmers
supplying the milk and already after a couple of years Kiwi executives are slowly being squeezed out and the bigger global players are starting to make inroads, bit like merging airlines trying to capture percentages of the market. Naturally they go into huge billion dollar debts to international banks- the start of the slippery slope. Many farmers are now starting to wake up but there is no reverse gear, because the bureaucrats are as though they own it all, however there is the odd dairy company still independant and paying out higher returns so farmers can vote with their feet but that might depend on how much leverage the banks have on decision making.
There was a Weddell plant in my town when I moved here about ten years ago, the most modern one (fairly new) in NZ, but the
market wasn't good for beef so the bank closed it and sent the work to a huge old one about thirty Ks away to make it more able to carry its debt. Lot of people lost jobs and had to sell homes and go where they could find work.
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#1166 Bader

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Posted 21 September 2003 - 08:26 AM

Iam too late it appears DONQ,

I suggested that the corporate kibbutz of offering shelter and food for slave labour to help solve state social problems may come.
We all know I guess of the industrial belt
along a certain part of the U.S./Mexico boarder.
Factories in India (eg Union Carbide) where trapped workers died and various other places.
here is a sample in Indonesia from The New Rulers Of The World
by John Pliger a free-lance international investigative journalist
who has both eyes open and facing the front and not a cavity behind them.
He posed as a fashion buyer to access a Gap factory:
"I found more than a thousand mostly young women working,
battery-style, under the glare of strip lighting in temperatures that reach 40 degrees Centigrade. The only air-conditioning was upstairs, where the Taiwanese bosses were. What struck me was the claustrophobia, the sheer frenzy of the production and the fatigue and sadness that were like a presence. The faces were silent, the eyes downcast; limbs moved robotically. The women had no choice about the hours they must work, including a notorious 'long shift' : 36 hours without going home. I was assured that, if I wanted to place a last-minute order, that was 'no problem' because 'we just make the working day longer'.
(They often weren't allowed to go to the toilet but in their pants where they worked)

"Clinging to the factories, like the debris of a great storm, are the labour camps where these workers live: Hobbesian communities crammed in long dormitories made from breeze blocks, plywoodpacking cases and corrigated iron.
...They live with open, overflowing sewers and unsafe water; up to half their wages goes on drinkable water."
A corp. kibbutz would be better. At least food clothing and shelter water etc would be provided.
How do people defend capitalism?
How do people glorify China who has embraced the same capitalist cutting edge?
How can Russia be a number one society- prohibition of philosophy of human cattle in policy.
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#1167 donquijote

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Posted 21 September 2003 - 07:16 PM

<Thanks DonQ for the comment to Marquis and the post re coops.>

Quite welcome. Our good friend Marquis is trying to expand Curitiba, where a good mayor indeed changed things for the better. I don't know what the other mayors of the world are doing though cause they ain't nowhere near that...:confused: Yet I remain hopeful that politics can be changed without upheavel either by political top-bottom action or by grass-root movement, the latter being more likely.;)

<There surely is quite a scope to create them and much of the
sections are logical regarding strengths and weaknesses but Perkins is looking at them in the world of debt money system and so if that is reformed then the situation could change significantly.>

Thank you for the dissertation. My condolences...;)

But look what I came across...

http://www.economicd...racy.org/shift/

and...

"Capitalism is Man Exploiting Man;
Communism is just the opposite
--Old East Block Joke

Q: What has Boris Yesltin succeeded
in doing, in just a few years,
Which the Communists weren't able
to do in seventy years?
A: Make Communism look good."
--Russian joke, mid-1990s.

I got my own saying: "Communism is so, but so bad that it's worse than Capitalism!"

Hey don't miss this...

http://economicdemoc...org/analy.shtml
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#1168 donquijote

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Posted 21 September 2003 - 07:38 PM

<"Clinging to the factories, like the debris of a great storm, are the labour camps where these workers live: Hobbesian communities crammed in long dormitories made from breeze blocks, plywoodpacking cases and corrigated iron.
...They live with open, overflowing sewers and unsafe water; up to half their wages goes on drinkable water."
A corp. kibbutz would be better. At least food clothing and shelter water etc would be provided.>

The lion at its most brutal.:confused: But the living conditions in a kibbutz sound pretty good to me...;)

"You will be able to enjoy the full social life available to Kibbutzniks and volunteers, such as swimming, sport, evening pubs and discos, as well as specially prepared lectures on Israel, folk dancing, arranged outings and tours. And you will experience the exhiliration of country life, healthy food and living, and meeting people from all over the world - all on a shoestring budget. Altogether, this is an experience not to be missed!"

This is another subject, but the problem with Israel is its nationalism.:confused: All they got do is grant full citizenship to the Arabs, and let them be part of the kibbutz and everything else.

source...

http://www.kibbutz.com.au/over35.html

<How do people defend capitalism?
How do people glorify China who has embraced the same capitalist cutting edge?
How can Russia be a number one society- prohibition of philosophy of human cattle in policy. >

Probably those defending capitalism are at the upper end of the food chain, say the hyenas, foxes, snakes and vultures...;)

htt://webspawner.com/users/donquijote
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#1169 GIJOE

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Posted 21 September 2003 - 08:16 PM

Russia is fast becoming number one already.

Pravda is living proof of this.

Russia, for the moment is no longer controlled by an elite self appointed mob of egomaniacs that thru their in depth studies of Marx and Engels, along with their unquenchable thirst for unlimited power, once murdered 30million of their own, with the great socialist experiment, COMMUNISN.

FAST BECOMING NUMBER ONE IN THE MOST IMPORTANT LINEUP IN THE WORLD, FREEDOMS..........


G I Joe
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#1170 donquijote

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Posted 21 September 2003 - 09:16 PM

<I started my life in a kibbutz like setting, thousands of families all living in one set of buildings, sharing everything from the incinerator to food to clothelines to you name it.
I escaped before my 16th birthday and never looked back.
The life was like a prison without walls.>

It sound pretty bleak to me alright, but I don't see how it resembles life in a kibbutz or any other cooperative for that matter. If anything it sounds to my like 'life in the ghetto,' and that's an American invention that got little to do with cooperation and a lot to do with competition, for survival I'd say...

< ''ONLY IN AMERICA'' is and old saying because it is a true saying. My family and I are living proof that our system works for those that WORK. not just study and get oodles and oodles of information to use in attempting to make a point out of the pointless....... and please don't try to tell me I am and anomaly, as this is the common retort of the malcontented, the lazy, and those with the business sense of a toothless backwoods interbred freak....>

The "dream" works for some, for others, nightmare, 'only in America'...:(

Just Say Maybe

For an example of how NOT to make good health policy, consider the
international debate on drugs

Source: The Economist, April 5-11th 2003

Plenty of non-governmental organizations (NGOs) and even some
government ministers (in private, at least) now recognize that these
treaties and the policies they encourage are the WRONG WAY to tackle
drug abuse.

The arguments for a different approach have grown stronger, not
weaker, since 1998. The failure of the current policy has become much
clearer. There is no sign that government intervention has cut supply...

AND WHILE THE BIG SHOTS ARE INSULATED FROM THE PROBLEM,
DOWN THERE, IN THE GHETTO...

They have 40 *BILLION* dollars for the "War on Drugs" next year.

New prisons in almost every state, several new prisons in a few states. And,
they get high in jail. Dope is as easy to buy in jail as it is out here. All you need
is money. WTF are these people thinking???

40 *BILLION* dollars to continue a losing battle that is killing the youth
of our country. Trying to get ahead in this society after having been
convicted of a drug crime is a real bleak future. I have a bud, an old Navy
diver, who cant get a job driving a ****ing truck, because he has a felony
conviction for growing marijuana that goes back to 1974. The guy is a 10
year Navy veteran, made one simple mistake *26* years ago, has been in *no*
trouble since, and cant get a ****ing job that he can support himself on. We
should be ashamed.

Do people realize that the population in 20 years is going to made up of a
*significant* number of convicted felons who *cant* vote? And who are
going to be pissed off, and tired of being under the Big Brother thumb. Tired
of a life of poverty because they made a mistake in their youth, and have been
made to pay for it for their entire lives.

*Prisons are now being run at a profit by private corporations*. So, if they
keep it up, they are creating a future labor force of cheap, disposable
laborers who have been stripped of all rights, hope and dignity. "Act right,
do the job we give you, or sit in a cage."

Look at it this way: I was in basic with a black kid from Detroit. About 6
weeks in they found he had a heart murmur, and were going to discharge him
as unfit. He was a model recruit, squared away and trying real hard to be a
Marine. When he got the news, he told me "I aint going back home, man."
Later that night, he drank a half a can of Brasso.

For him, life in America offered two choices:
Be a Detroit Ghetto Black man, and spend your life in shit (like his dad and
everyone he knows), or be a Marine (none of the other branches would take
him). When he lost the option of getting out of Detroit, no matter the cost,
he chose death rather than go home. Until that moment, I never realized how
bad *some* children in this country have it. Grow up in a place where you
never see anything but pigeons, dogs and cats. Never seen a cow. Since that
moment, I have never forgot. If I grew up like most kids in the ghettos of
America, I would be a gun totin, dope selling, white man hating, cop
shooting MF too, hoping to make that one big score, and get out (its either
dream, or work at McDonalds). Our prisons are full of them.

2 *MILLION* people in prison in the US right now, more than Russia or China,
1/2 of those for dope.

We should, every last flag waving one of us, be ashamed of our failure.

Scott
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#1171 donquijote

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Posted 21 September 2003 - 10:18 PM

Hey Bader, like you said before, we got to blow the lion's cover. Human lions seem to have the tendency to hide in somebody else's skin and the little animals are confused. They may not even see the lion!

Well that's our job. Look what Chomsky has to say on the subject...;)

'At this point, you're sort of beginning to think about how a free and democratic society might operate, and that's worth a lot of thought, but we're a long way from that. The first thing you've got to do in any kind of change is to recognize the forms of oppression that exist. I mean, if slaves don't recognize that slavery is oppression, it doesn't make much sense to ask them: "how are you going to live in a free society?" They think they do. And this is not a joke. Take say, women. Overwhelmingly and for a long time, they may have sensed oppression, but they didn't see it as oppression, they saw it as "life". *The fact that you don't see oppression doesn't mean that you don't know it at some level*. I mean, at some level, you know it. And the way in which you know it can take very harmful forms, to yourself and everyone else. That's true of every system of oppression. But unless you sense it, identify it, understand it, understand furthermore that it's not as in that article, "the genius of the market and a mystery," but perfectly understandable and not any genius of anything, and easily put under popular control.

Unless all those things are understood you cannot proceed to the next step, which is the one you raised: *how can we change this system?* [Well], you can figure out how to change the system by reading the newspapers that were produced by twenty year old young women in Lowell, Massachusetts 150 years ago who came off the farms and were working in the factories and running newspapers. They knew how to change the system, we know too. They wanted to, *they were strongly opposed to what they called "the new spirit of the age: gain wealth forgetting all but self," and wanted to retain the high culture that they already had, the solidarity, the sympathy, the control*. They didn't want to be slaves, they thought that the Civil War was fought to end slavery not to institute it. All of these things were perfectly common perceptions, perfectly correct, and you can turn them into ways in which a much more free society can function.'

No Lion No Problem!;)

http://economicdemoc...c.econ-sys.html
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#1172 donquijote

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Posted 21 September 2003 - 10:42 PM

An anecdote...
The other day I attended a conference by Angela Davis, a known black activist, and handed out my own leaflets, but, being a lazy campaigner, I took a short cut:

As the people--mostly blacks--were leaving they were getting first the communist literature, next the anarchist and then me... I just shouted out: "Join the Revolution!" and they looked at me in disbelief, and then I added, "for RRRussia," with a strong accent, and most people cracked in laughters and took the leaflets. And that's the approach I keep at the moment. If they are indifferent to me or roar, I just give them my blessings: Hallelujah!

I guess that's the beauty of coming up with something funny--the little stories, the Guarapo Revolution, etc--I do have a lot of fun.

I don't know, when Cervantes aimed his satire at the then exaggeratedly popular knight novels, they disappeared.

Chaplin said we needed comics as politicians. Not me though...;)

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#1173 donquijote

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Posted 21 September 2003 - 11:24 PM

Poll taking place at...

http://engforum.prav...&threadid=35025

If unemployment is a problem, why not shorten the work week? This is one of my proposals...

Of course unemployment is a strategy of the lion to make the little animals come to the water well where he waits for them...;)

Why Greens Should Support a Reduced Work Week
by R. Burke, Gateway Green Alliance, Industrial Workers of the World

An increasing number of labor activists, both here in the US as well as in Europe, have been raising demands for a shorter work week. The growing globalization of production and use of automation have led to a decline in higher wage manufacturing jobs and an increase in lower wage service employment. Cutting the work week without loss of pay, theoretically long espoused by unions, is seen as a way of increasing employment. There are strong reasons why environmentalists should also support this idea.

Consumerism is both an integral component of late capitalist society and an unquestionable contributor to environmental degradation. We are constantly bombarded by advertisements telling us to consume ever more products. Slick packaging tempts us to buy newer items. Planned obsolescence ensures that the commodities we buy will need replacing after a few years. Ever changing fashions and fads compel us to buy whatever is currently stylish or trendy. "Fast" foods, disposable products, easy to cook micro-wavable dinners all claim to make our busy lives more manageable. The result is tons of waste and garbage for landfills, increased use of non-renewable resources, more pollution and greenhouse gasses in the atmosphere.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To demand shorter work weeks is to proclaim that life is more than the production and consumption of commodities.

full text...

http://www.greens.or...r/12/12-17.html
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#1174 GIJOE

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Posted 22 September 2003 - 12:52 AM

I HAVE READ CHUMPSKY AS I LIKE TO CALL THIS MISGUIDED DANGEROUS IDIOT. HE HAS GOTTEN HIS B S OVER ON SO MANY EASY MARKS LIKE YOU.......... HE COULD NOT SELL ME A TICKET TO HIS PATH TO THE PAST OF HELL AND DESTRUCTION.
THE ONLY REVOLUTION I WANT TO JOIN IS THE NEW COMPUTER REVOLUTION........

G I Joe you want to hear stomachs rumble with hunger pains donq, that is what CHUMSKY will surely bring about.............
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#1175 donquijote

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Posted 22 September 2003 - 01:32 AM

<I HAVE READ CHUMPSKY AS I LIKE TO CALL THIS MISGUIDED DANGEROUS IDIOT. HE HAS GOTTEN HIS B S OVER ON SO MANY EASY MARKS LIKE YOU.......... HE COULD NOT SELL ME A TICKET TO HIS PATH TO THE PAST OF HELL AND DESTRUCTION.
THE ONLY REVOLUTION I WANT TO JOIN IS THE NEW COMPUTER REVOLUTION........

G I Joe you want to hear stomachs rumble with hunger pains donq, that is what CHUMSKY will surely bring about.............>

The only sure path to destruction is to keep going denying the great injustices of this world. Environmental damage is being casually comitted and war recklessly thrown about like there's no future.

On the other hand, I haven't seen any famine or even scarcity in Sweden, kibbutz or Mondragon coops. The computer revolution can indeed help bring about a better world by creating forums like Pravda's.;)
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#1176 Bader

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Posted 22 September 2003 - 08:30 AM

I was trying to remember that joke about a week ago to add it to my post, it gets a good reception when ever used.

The two paragraphs by Chompsky are saying what I said recently,
the first step is to indentify correctly what the problem is so
when you consider the next step you know what you are up against. (know your enemy)

40 Billion on a drug war. Perhaps the most dangerous drug is power-tripping. I have read two articles that have seriously contended that Bush has invaded Iraq purely for the hell of showing he can do it. Since both Afghan. and Iraq invasions were planned prior to Sept 11, Afghan before Bush was elected
by the single Judicial vote, I couldn't take it seriously besides I suspect the more dangerous predators are in his shadow.

Greens and consumerism:
It was a hundred years ago and maybe more that the worker-world expected the working week to shorten as technology and the potential of mass production because obvious. As with the case of synergy the benefits were not allowed to go to the worker
in being financially better off in terms of the cost of living- making them more independant.
A hundred years later both spouses have to work and work longer. (this is a good one for the thread on efficiency!)
Remember the description of the airplane and its minimal airspeed to avoid falling out of the sky depicting the debt money
system? The greater drive for over-production is tied up with this cause for continually expanding the money supply to prevent the system crashing. ( war is another tool for the same)
This is also why I have used the slapstick comedy of the train chopping up the carriages to fuel the engine on to depict the free-market capitalism.
In NZ the Greens are happy with the debt finance system, few are able to see the need for financial reform, so they will just go in for taxes to discourage abuse of consumption while factories work night and day and pass on the costs; and to collect funds to throw at the environmental problems. Mind you if the Greens fix the environmental problems they will be out of a job. It is better to become indispensible to trot along side the problems and give a running commentary reinforcing how smart they are than go at the causes.
Notice how right now in the U.S. they want to take the time and a half pay away and at the same time the consumers to spend more to help the economy recouperate?!
But the practice of entertaining two contradictory thoughts
simultaneously which although are rational seperately but irrational to support both is not exclusive to the U.S., it is true
of the West. That is the comedy of politics for me.
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#1177 donquijote

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Posted 22 September 2003 - 06:16 PM

Poll taking place at...

http://engforum.prav...7688#post387688
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#1178 donquijote

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Posted 22 September 2003 - 06:46 PM

<Greens and consumerism:
It was a hundred years ago and maybe more that the worker-world expected the working week to shorten as technology and the potential of mass production because obvious. As with the case of synergy the benefits were not allowed to go to the worker
in being financially better off in terms of the cost of living- making them more independant.>

Aloha Bader
There's a movie worth watching if you got a chance: A Nous la Liberte! (French, 1931!) It depicts that...

Description
"One of the all-time great comedy classics, Ren? Clair's ? Nous la Libert? is a skillful satire of the industrial revolution and the blind quest for wealth. Deftly integrating his signature musical-comedy technique with pointed social criticism, Clair tells the story of an escaped convict who becomes a wealthy industrialist. Unfortunately his past returns to upset his carefully laid plans. Featuring lighthearted wit, tremendous visual innovation, and masterful manipulation of sound, ? Nous la Libert? is both a potent indictment of mechanized modern society and an uproarious comic delight."

<A hundred years later both spouses have to work and work longer. (this is a good one for the thread on efficiency!)
Remember the description of the airplane and its minimal airspeed to avoid falling out of the sky depicting the debt money
system? The greater drive for over-production is tied up with this cause for continually expanding the money supply to prevent the system crashing. ( war is another tool for the same)>

The lion indeed wants the dry season, and to that effect he uses his wars and fancy projects, never to provide a happy society. In the movie I mentioned the capitalist misses the happy simple life with his old pal and leaves the factory to the workers who pursue a life of picnicking and dancing while the machines do the job...

<This is also why I have used the slapstick comedy of the train chopping up the carriages to fuel the engine on to depict the free-market capitalism.>

A very happy analogy. We should develop it into a story...;)

<In NZ the Greens are happy with the debt finance system, few are able to see the need for financial reform, so they will just go in for taxes to discourage abuse of consumption while factories work night and day and pass on the costs; and to collect funds to throw at the environmental problems. Mind you if the Greens fix the environmental problems they will be out of a job. It is better to become indispensible to trot along side the problems and give a running commentary reinforcing how smart they are than go at the causes.>

They become vultures of the system and do the most damage, for it's expected of them to fight the lion! The same happens with the "pacifists" who never address the real issue: the lion's hunger for oil and resources makes him aggressive. I was recently told a "Bike for Peace Campaign" that I have in mind wasn't in their strategy and not to write about it in their group!

HOW THE VULTURES BENEFIT FROM ORGANIZING THE LITTLE ANIMALS

One day the Vultures, who depended on the lion's leftovers, got together to organize the little animals... The eldest bird started saying: "We should organize the Sheep to worship a poor Shepherd, who, because he tried to save them, was crucified by the lion; but who left the promise of the good sheep going to Paradise, in which there's no lions..." Then another bird added: "Very clever. Likewise, we'll organize them to denounce the abuses against the poor little animals in 'other' jungles..."

Meanwhile, an Owl who had been observing the problems of the jungle, and who had been invited by mistake, asked: "Why not organize them defend them from the Lion?"

And that's how the Vultures organized from then on the little animals of the jungle--to defend them from the subversive owls...

<Notice how right now in the U.S. they want to take the time and a half pay away and at the same time the consumers to spend more to help the economy recouperate?!
But the practice of entertaining two contradictory thoughts
simultaneously which although are rational seperately but irrational to support both is not exclusive to the U.S., it is true
of the West. That is the comedy of politics for me. >

What's supposed to be serious is a comedy. How funny: A lion is defending the little animals from another lion!;)

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#1179 donquijote

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Posted 22 September 2003 - 07:10 PM

> Not sure of the point of all this arguement. Does someone here think that
> minimum wage earners should be able to afford to buy a home? Is there some
> right to home ownership that every American is entitled to no matter how
> much they earn??? If someone makes minimum wage and can't afford to buy a
> home, so what? That is the incentive to improve one's position in life.
>
> I made minimum wage for about 3 months when I was 15 years old working at a
> fast food restaurant, and guess what....my wage has increased every year
> since at a rate much much greater than the rate of inflation. I think most
> people with a little motivation, half a brain, and no addictions can say the
> same thing. There's nothing wrong with such a system.
>
> People that are earning minimum wage probably don't deserve any more than
> that, and they certainly are not entitled to own a home. That's what
> apartments and mobile home parks are for.

No way, no mobile home park. They should go in the ghetto. There they
should kill each other and not offend the law abiding, church-going,
tax-paying citizens who pay the cops to keep 'em out.

Ah, halellujah!;)

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#1180 Bader

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Posted 23 September 2003 - 06:57 AM

Howdy DonQ,
bike protest convoy would be a great show, especially if it chose a big round about in the centre of a big city and just went around
and around holding up traffic in four directions, with large placards held up on the roundabout.
When the Force arrives they can all dispurse where vehicles can't go. Then gather at two other roundabouts and do the same.

You aren't the only one who has struck this.
When the anti-war protests were being held in Britain those who came with placards that had their own original comments were
told they couldn't use them because the Socialists were in control
and wanted to use the media/public audience for their own ends.
A great variety of individualism (protest commensts) would have given the impression of the general public opposing the war
which is better than the appearance of one faction but the
socialist agenda comes before any other cause.
George Bush and co with their wars have done more for the international socialist movement than anyone else in the last twenty years. The more Bush carries on the greater the cause for a world dictatorship to police the nations.
Already U.S. Supreme Court Judges are starting to use UE law to
make decisions.
For Russia to be number one they will have to also be number one anarchists towards the global Lion.
By the way what was that website that had Peter Kropotkins
writings on it?
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