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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#1181 donquijote

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Posted 23 September 2003 - 09:33 PM

http://engforum.prav...&threadid=35303
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#1182 donquijote

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Posted 24 September 2003 - 01:03 AM

<bike protest convoy would be a great show, especially if it chose a big round about in the centre of a big city and just went around
and around holding up traffic in four directions, with large placards held up on the roundabout.
When the Force arrives they can all dispurse where vehicles can't go. Then gather at two other roundabouts and do the same.>

Howdy Bader
Their idea of "protest" is to stand up with a sign and make some noise--to their own credit--and then pass the hat.;) Our "bike for peace campaign" though won't only be about peace but about options like 'bike lanes for every major street,' the way's been proposed for Copenhagen. People want to see a betterment in their lives not only a peace in which they got nothing anyway.

<You aren't the only one who has struck this.
When the anti-war protests were being held in Britain those who came with placards that had their own original comments were
told they couldn't use them because the Socialists were in control
and wanted to use the media/public audience for their own ends.
A great variety of individualism (protest commensts) would have given the impression of the general public opposing the war
which is better than the appearance of one faction but the
socialist agenda comes before any other cause.>

They really are part of the 'necessary opposition' to make the lion look democratic. Communism always used Capitalism to justify their excesses and viceversa. But the problem is the lion, and both systems create such beasts. The anarchists thereby are the closest to the truth.

<George Bush and co with their wars have done more for the international socialist movement than anyone else in the last twenty years. The more Bush carries on the greater the cause for a world dictatorship to police the nations.
Already U.S. Supreme Court Judges are starting to use UE law to
make decisions.>

We also owe him to have won the antipathy of the world in barely two years, not bad...;)

<For Russia to be number one they will have to also be number one anarchists towards the global Lion.>

We can go as close to anarchism as we possibly can without abondining either the principle of *voluntary association* and *going slow and easy* about it, and never threatening the lion but looking for a common ground, sort of what we see in the pictures of Paradise, where the lion is nice and tamed...;)

<By the way what was that website that had Peter Kropotkins
writings on it?>

Will follow...
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#1183 donquijote

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Posted 24 September 2003 - 02:17 AM

You are right Russia should listen to her best revolutionaries, *Russians* like Kropotkin and Emma Goldman, who denounced Bolshevism. Also Tolstoy. They were honest and good...;)

(this is a new article)

'Parallel with his knowledge of the inefficiency of the central administration bodies. his observations on the free association of those engaged in common interests which he made throughout his long journeys in Siberia and Manchuria also contributed to the formation of his anarchist personality. He saw clearly the role played by the anonymous masses in great historic events and in the development of civilization. This realization, as we shall see later, influenced the whole of his sociological criticism, and was fundamental to his method of historical research.

When Kropotkin went to Switzerland, his libertarian and federalist tendencies were greatly influenced by his contact with the Jura Federation, which in 1872 had assumed marked anarchist and antiauthoritarian tendencies. One should note that the development of these tendencies was in great part due to the strongly centralized, not to say tyrannical, domination of the International.

It is necessary to add that the militants of the Jura Federation were imbued with the anarchism of Bakunin which was essentially federalist. Kropotkin, as he himself states, was never in direct contact with Bakunin.'

(snip)

'From the articles that Kropotkin published between 1879 and 1882 in the R?volt? of Geneva, it seems clear that the administrative system of the West only provided him with new material for his criticisms against the State, and confirmed him still further in his federalist and libertarian ideas. Wherever centralism existed he found a powerful bureaucracy.

"It creates an army of office-holders, sitting like spiders in their webs, who have never seen the world except through the dingy panes of their office windows and only know it from their files and absurd formulae--a black band, who have no other religion except money, and no other thought but of sticking to any party, black, purple or white, so long as it guarantees a maximum salary for a minimum of work."'

source...

http://dwardmac.pitz...ikropotkin.html
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#1184 donquijote

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Posted 24 September 2003 - 02:56 AM

Bader, I don't know if you like this approach: "put pleasure and happiness in their place--here and now.";)

This world is falling apart both through wars and environmental catastrophe. The *injustices* and *reckless behavior toward the environment* imposed by the powerful are unsustainable. Something must be done. I did chose to build upon known facts: Sweden--through socialism--works, Switzerland--through decentralization--works too. Incompatible? Maybe different realities to different peoples. Likewise Kibbutz work, Mondragon works and Curitiba--due to a humanist mayor--works. So decentralization can be explored and push the limits as far as it is safe to do so. Military defense? The Swiss are perhaps the best prepared in this world for any intruder.

It's about banana, and it's about hands on, and it's about philosophy too. Epicurus would have liked it...;)

"Those who try to cheat the social covenant by committing crimes are subject to perpetual anxieties that accompany the prospects of looming retaliation." [And this was written 2,300 years ago, something today's politicians seem to ignore!]:confused:

'Epicurus of S?mos, the Greek ?philosopher of the garden- who lived 341-270 BC, was an ancient sage who left us an enduring message of optimism. His teachings conveyed a fundamental conviction that individuals can live in serene happiness, fortified by the continual experience of easily obtainable pleasures. All we really need to satisfy ourselves, he informs us, are the sustenance of nutritious food, the comfort of a secure living environment, the comradery of good friends, and the assuring wisdom that the nature of the larger universe is benign.

But although Epicurus' hedonistic ideal is easily achieved, it-s not quite as readily believed. Many of us are disposed to believe that a pleasurable life necessarily entails the winning of riches, fame, and power, only to come away feeling anxious that we still don-t have enough?the goal slides forever forward, like the proverbial carrot hanging on a string. Meanwhile, religions proclaim that a pleasurable life on earth is not even desirable, but that we must strive instead for a blissful afterlife, which may be earned after a lifetime of toil and strife. Here the carrot is so far deployed into the future, that one cannot live long enough to seize it?nor can we really tell than anyone else has ever succeeded in doing so. Epicurus, by contrast, challenges us to examine the nature of the universe scientifically, to analyze the root causes of grief and anxiety, and to put pleasure and happiness in their place--here and now.'

(snip)

'Epicurus recognizes the virtue of justice. Like the other virtues, justice is not considered by Epicureans to be an ?absolute good,
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#1185 Bader

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Posted 24 September 2003 - 08:10 AM

"...not just peace but betterment.."

excellent.
Slowly but surely for the masses of the globe they are being conditioned to settle for peace, without betterment, and at a price of freedom. The spin will be that this is betterment to have security.

Kropotkin- federalist and libertarian? Almost a oxymoron isn't it?

"pleasure and happiness in their place.."

The intervention of science and technology to work for us and provide wealth (at a rate we could never match) should have
allowed people the liberty of time and money to enjoy the
numerous gifts and talents that are shackled by the need to WORK.
Humans are by far the greatest asset of the planet and it has been said that during those times when a civilization have enjoyed a certain amount of prosperity that enbled people to
develop their art and music talents etc (because of free-time) that civilization made its greatest breakthroughs in science and culture.
Tesla proved it hasn't come from market forces/ capitalism.
WE are touching on that point just discused, where people looking forward into this century expected to experience this.

"Go down Moses. ... Tell old Pharoah, to let my people go!"

We don't have time DonQ we are busy building the Pyramid, for the capstone-all seeing eye. Checkout the Dollar note and the latin words underlying it- NWO.

Without justice there is no peace, without truth there is no justice. The truth about the money system that takes our time
(into the future-perpetual) will demand justice (social and
economic) from which we will get the freedom of time and
economics to enjoy the peace of pleasure and happiness.
The more pleasure and happiness the less likely people are to want to cheat the social contract.

Of course we can expect many to argue- why bother to free the masses for the promised land because it won't bring utopia
which by implication means until we arrive at perfection "flogging will persist until attitude improves".
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#1186 donquijote

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Posted 24 September 2003 - 08:36 PM

<excellent.
Slowly but surely for the masses of the globe they are being conditioned to settle for peace, without betterment, and at a price of freedom. The spin will be that this is betterment to have security.>

Howdy Bader
Settling for peace is being resignated to being fleeced, as opposed to being butchered outright.;)

<Kropotkin- federalist and libertarian? Almost a oxymoron isn't it>

I thought they both rejected the lion...:confused:

<"pleasure and happiness in their place..">

'The Epicurean keeps the objective of experiential bliss always close at hand, merely by keeping himself well-nourished, well-housed, well-educated, and well-entertained. These basic requirements can be satisfied with a modest income, but they are by no means any less rewarding than the wider range of more competitive undertakings commonly held to be prerequisites for emotional fulfillment. For just as it-s usually more feasible to adjust our expenses than our income, it is usually more feasible still to adjust our attitudes. ?If you wish to make Pythocles rich,- Epicurus once counseled, ?do not give him more money, but diminish his desire.- For happiness is an internal victory that transcends outward circumstances. Getting the most out of life is therefore not a matter of somehow ?outdoing- the victories of others, but rather a matter of prolonging victories within ourselves.' [same source]

Man, it's gonna take some rethinking of what's happines and pleasure. As you see in this paragraph the prerequisites for happines are simple. Capitalism though has made a commodity of what should be free or nearly free, even pleasure. Pornography is a big industry, and it's one of the rewards of economic "success" to get the most beatiful chicks in town. They become a commodity. And then you see them hanging out with old guys--whom, chances are, they end up cheating.:confused: We must change values; we must make the most beautiful women in town belong to our movement--because we tailor the system to them as well as because we make it spicy--and others will follow. Likewise we must make it desirable to the young people because it's fun. In this case we really got to learn from the lion. The little people are asking: "Where is the Party?";)

At least this is what I sense in the street...;)

<We don't have time DonQ we are busy building the Pyramid, for the capstone-all seeing eye. Checkout the Dollar note and the latin words underlying it- NWO.>

The mighty dollar: In Gold We Trust!;)

<Without justice there is no peace, without truth there is no justice. The truth about the money system that takes our time
(into the future-perpetual) will demand justice (social and
economic) from which we will get the freedom of time and
economics to enjoy the peace of pleasure and happiness.
The more pleasure and happiness the less likely people are to want to cheat the social contract.>

Totally in agreement. I would say the law of the jungle only exacerbate whatever evil tendency we may naturally have. Less jungle, less evil.:cool:

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out...

"If you and I must fight each other to exist, we will not love each other very hard."

-Eugene Debs

<Of course we can expect many to argue- why bother to free the masses for the promised land because it won't bring utopia
which by implication means until we arrive at perfection "flogging will persist until attitude improves".>

'Utopia or Else!' I would respond, which is also the name of a book by Rene Dumont, a famous agronomist proposing coops...

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#1187 Bader

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Posted 24 September 2003 - 09:47 PM

When things go to the extreme the tendency is to be inundated with wisdom to go to the other extreme which in turn invites
the super-wise to say - no point changing since it won't bring utopia (so flogging will continue....)

Most people seem to appreciate the "philosophy" of work hard-play hard. The extremes are workwork work and playplay play.
People who work for themselves like a coop work harder working for themselves and get a lot of pleasure doing so, in fact a lot of lucky people may consider their creative occupation
recreation and pleasure. Too many have to work just to get an income doing what they won't want to and for a a-h bose who treats them like s..t. It has to be compensated by quality in their own time and personal life

The demand for money to enjoy after-work activity is part of the problem that a reformed financial system would address.
Many people would appreciate more time just to spend with family- not spending money. More time would see a boom in coop (group) recreation without formal clubs.
A reformed finance system would bring inflation and cost of living down making the point of being able to afford more creativity within the limits of ones income and the time to do so. (families might stay together)

More leisure time and a lower cost of living would see a big increases in people making income to meet the needs of those who had more time for recreation and more disposable income.
People don't need higher wages-higher taxes and higher cost of living, they want more disposable income for a lifestyle that is
acceptable given the progress of society. Is that extreme or
modest and reasonable?

Human nature is such that there is always the issue of attitude/
greed etc etc, but the world we live in has been grossly distorted
and the mirrors and smoke and the incessent propoganda
deludes people from realising it doesn't have to half as bad as it is- we don't have to be flogged until our attitude changes and stop expecting social justice.

Because life has become so artificial and technical based people are tending to get back to nature and simplicity to recharge their batteries. The option is to accept house arrest and watch the
rich and high-paid professionals do it on sceen when the audience vegetates between work to pay off the high-tech
home entertainment. (and we think the rest of the world envies us doing this to the point of destroying the Twin Towers!!!!!!!!)

The national health bills inparticular precription drugs speak for themselves. Does this reflect too much leasure, tv, talking,
surfing the net etc etc? People were healthier living in relation to the land, smaller communities and the money they earnt was worth something.
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#1188 donquijote

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Posted 24 September 2003 - 09:48 PM

"Pornography is a big industry, and it's one of the rewards of economic "success" to get the most beatiful chicks in town. They become a commodity. And then you see them hanging out with old guys--whom, chances are, they end up cheating.:confused: We must change values; we must make the most beautiful women in town belong to our movement--because we tailor the system to them as well as because we make it spicy--and others will follow."

Consider this...

'Women made the difference. The centers of the first human bands were small groups of women with their dependent children. *The crux that established the identity of species was the ability of the female-headed group to draw in the males, to keep them attached*. Tanner notes, as does Mary Leakey, that the key to human sociability is the constant emotional attraction of human beings for each other - which is unlike the intermittent sexual attraction of species which mate only during a certain season. Charles Darwin had noted earlier in his book on the origins of human emotions that in its most primitive forms the smile, which is a facial expression found and recognized throughout our species, began as an "invitation to cooperate," by which Darwin meant principally an invitation to share erotic pleasures. The weight of the evidence is that the human species in its hunter-gatherer origins - that is to say, during the great majority of the time we have participated as part of the fauna in the life-processes of Earth - has been for the most part and mainly not a "tournament species," in which natural selection operates by selecting the males victorious in combat to impregnate the females, but for the most part and mainly a "bonding species," in which adults united by pleasure bonds cooperate in the upbringing of the young. Were it not so our species would not have developed some of its most characteristic features - such as the long period of time during which the young are dependent on adults, and during which they adapt to the environment in the myriad, ever-changing, and extremely versatile ways we call learning, education, and culture. The ecological niche of the human being is to be the cultural animal - but being the cultural animal has been possible only because, as Gandhi wrote, "love is the law of our species."'

(snip)

And this is so interesting (though there are some objections to it at the webpage)...

'III. Capitalism and Socialism Combined and Uplifted
At this point in history I think we are in a position to draw some conclusions from experience about what capitalism's main problems are and are not, about how to solve capitalism's main problems. Here are five theses about the problems, then one idea about how to implement Denise's proposed solution:

1. The structural problem is not greed but obligatory greed.

That some people are greedy and don't know when to stop when they are making money, or do not know the joy of sharing, is a spiritual problem. Considered as a spiritual, or psychological, problem, it could be cured by conversion, or by therapy. The structural problem of capitalism is a problem inseparable from the social roles it forces people to play; people are obliged to act as if they were greedy even when, in their heart of hearts, they are not. As Karl Marx put it, capital must go on accumulating, and the capitalist is just the agent who helps it to do what it must do; his soul is the soul of capital. If he (or she) wants to play the game, then it is obligatory to keep costs down and profits up; it is obligatory even in those cases when to do so means keeping the workers down and tearing the environment up; it is necessary to do whatever needs to be done to keep ahead of the competition, because if you do not keep ahead of the competition then you fall behind the competition, and then you lose and you are out of the game; that is the way the game is played, and if you do not want to play the part of greedy capitalist, then someone else will, and the game will go on as before except that you will not be in it.

2. The problem is not the local market, but the global market market.

Selling organic vegetables at the local farmers market is likely to do harm only if you are passing off as good organic carrots carrots that are really poisonous, and if your carrots are poisonous then the City Council, or the police, or the state certifying board, or the Food and Drug Administration should step in. In a free country free elections and a free press help us to correct any abuses that may happen in the markets, and also to correct the correctors when it is the City Council, the police, or California, or the FDA that is out of bounds. So far the defects of the system are manageable. What is out of control is the market where markets are for sale. When Gerber Baby Products decides whether to "source" carrots or "site" a babyfood factory in the South Carolina market, or in the Brazilian market, or the Indonesian market, or the Pakistani market... then it chooses what laws it will be subject to. Labor standards, environmental standards, safety standards, and tax levels are for sale in the market market. The worst laws often sell the best, due to the need to keep ahead of the competition (see Point 1 above).

3. The problem is not profit but addiction to profit.

Denise recommends the book Reinvesting in America which tells how people have made money while at the same time creating jobs and revitalizing depressed areas by investing in the United States. This might be called doing well by doing good. Where investors find a socially responsible way to create jobs and make a decent profit, then everyone should be happy. The major problem with profits - as with any addiction - is the withdrawal symptoms. What happens when business turns sour and the investors lose money, or realize they are going to lose money and do not invest ? Are we helpless without the "profit fix" or can we get by without it ? If there are no profits to attract investors, then there are no investors, and then there are no jobs. When this happens, because this happens, it can be seen that people's livelihood depends too much on profits. Since there are not always profits to be made everywhere, there are not always jobs, and in fact, historically speaking, the times and places where good jobs are plentiful are few and far between. On the whole and on the average, on the economic historian's Immanuel Wallerstein's figures, in its four centuries of existence this system has lifted out of poverty about 15% of the human population of the planet.

4. The problem is not inefficiency, but unnatural measures of efficiency.

We are told that because of "inefficiency" firms must downsize, governments must downsize, and people must be laid off. But the word "efficiency" means, by definition, achieving the objective with a minimum expenditure of resources. By any real standard, Bucky Fuller's work is a paradigm of efficiency. He shows how to mobilize resources to meet needs, achieving a real objective (e.g. housing) at a minimum real cost (physically measured). Unfortunately economics measures efficiency with a wholly artificial standard: the dollar, and in terms of a wholly artificial goal: profit. It is therefore by a travesty of reasoning "efficient" to run an economy which provides few good jobs, which makes the majority insecure, and which condemns a substantial minority to live without the means to meet their basic needs.

5. The problem is less in what capitalism does than in what it does not do.

Many great corporations cultivate employee morale, contribute to basic research, support the arts, provide pension benefits, pay for health insurance, and pay high wages. No socialist experiment has yet achieved the level of worker benefits enjoyed by an employee of Xerox or Cummins Engine. In the Third World firms like United Fruit create plantation enclaves of relative prosperity, complete with hospitals and schools, that are the envy of the peasants eking out a living with primitive technologies on the neighboring hillsides. The problems do not lie with such major, financially secure, relatively socially enlightened corporations, nor in general do they lie with what capitalism has accomplished. The problems belong to the billions on the outside looking in, who have neither land or other resources of their own, nor steady employment. As Paulo Freire says, these latter are not "marginal" to the system (nor by the same token are the homeless people on State Street "marginal" to the Santa Barbara way of life); viewing the system as a whole, the rejected people are an integral part of it. Meeting their needs is something the system systematically does not do.'

(snip)

'My three practical recommendations are: practice spirituality, practice bonding, practice cooperation.'

source...

http://www.west.net/...i/Capital1.html
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#1189 donquijote

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Posted 25 September 2003 - 08:21 PM

// For happiness is an internal victory that transcends outward circumstances. -.rethinking of what's happines and pleasure. Pornography is a big industry, and it's one of the rewards of economic "success" to get the most beatiful chicks in town. They become a commodity. And then you see them hanging out with old guys who they want to cheat. We must change values;//

<Socrates (469-399 bc. ),; 60 years old Socrates married 16 years old. He even was supporter of democracy . Some even consider him wise person-. . 2400 years past and we still changing values. ha, ha ha. >

Howdy Woj
Was it because of big bucks or because of fame? Chairman Arafat--not good looking, at least for Western standards;)--got a young woman--even beautiful--half his age, and I don't think he lives like a big shot...:confused: It got to fame or something else, if you know what I mean...

I believe *one way to beat capitalism is to provide the good life at an affordable price*... Why bother about either working 80 hrs. a week or backstabbing your friends when you can have happiness and pleasure nearly free?

WE WANT PARTY, GOOD EATING (no Mc's) and TIME TO ENJOY IT ALL. "Panem et Circenses!" Just not the capitalist one...;)
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#1190 donquijote

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Posted 25 September 2003 - 09:49 PM

<When things go to the extreme the tendency is to be inundated with wisdom to go to the other extreme which in turn invites
the super-wise to say - no point changing since it won't bring utopia (so flogging will continue....)>

Howdy Bader
True. I would respond to the super-wise though that--however imperfect--we can move up the scale toward a better system. It's like if you ask some guy in Africa if he'll like to live in America, even though the guy in the American ghetto is dying--literally as well figuratively--to have general health care coverage like that one of Scandinavia. So the world is perfectible and we can and must pursue it, particularly when we are threatened by the status quo...

<Most people seem to appreciate the "philosophy" of work hard-play hard. The extremes are workwork work and playplay play.
People who work for themselves like a coop work harder working for themselves and get a lot of pleasure doing so, in fact a lot of lucky people may consider their creative occupation
recreation and pleasure. Too many have to work just to get an income doing what they won't want to and for a a-h bose who treats them like s..t. It has to be compensated by quality in their own time and personal life

The demand for money to enjoy after-work activity is part of the problem that a reformed financial system would address.
Many people would appreciate more time just to spend with family- not spending money. More time would see a boom in coop (group) recreation without formal clubs.
A reformed finance system would bring inflation and cost of living down making the point of being able to afford more creativity within the limits of ones income and the time to do so. (families might stay together)>

OK, good subject. Perhaps we should change it around. A more realistic slogan for capitalism would be: "Work hard, Live Little!":confused:

So capitalism has commoditized what ever should be free!:confused: From education to health care, and from free time--say the latest home theater vs. a picnic at the park--to sex--making it something you must pay for--you are a consummer. Of course then you got to work hard--or stab another in the back--to stay afloat. You better be a lion when in the jungle!:confused:

Can we say though that by removing the jungle we remove the lion? Well at least we can make it more liveable and you can certainly get around *without* being a lion.;)

<More leisure time and a lower cost of living would see a big increases in people making income to meet the needs of those who had more time for recreation and more disposable income.
People don't need higher wages-higher taxes and higher cost of living, they want more disposable income for a lifestyle that is
acceptable given the progress of society. Is that extreme or
modest and reasonable?

Human nature is such that there is always the issue of attitude/
greed etc etc, but the world we live in has been grossly distorted
and the mirrors and smoke and the incessent propoganda
deludes people from realising it doesn't have to half as bad as it is- we don't have to be flogged until our attitude changes and stop expecting social justice.

Because life has become so artificial and technical based people are tending to get back to nature and simplicity to recharge their batteries. The option is to accept house arrest and watch the
rich and high-paid professionals do it on sceen when the audience vegetates between work to pay off the high-tech
home entertainment. (and we think the rest of the world envies us doing this to the point of destroying the Twin Towers!!!!!!!!)>

Awesome analysis. I would like to quote something by Epicurus though...

'"If you wish to make Pythocles rich," Epicurus once counseled, "do not give him more money, but diminish his desire." For happiness is an internal victory that transcends outward circumstances. Getting the most out of life is therefore not a matter of somehow "outdoing" the victories of others, but rather a matter of prolonging victories within ourselves.'

<The national health bills inparticular precription drugs speak for themselves. Does this reflect too much leasure, tv, talking,
surfing the net etc etc? People were healthier living in relation to the land, smaller communities and the money they earnt was worth something. >

We can certainly build upon the past and make it an even better world. Otherwise, how can we possible talk without the Internet?
My neighbors though go: "Money, Money" and "Hallelujah"...;)

http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote
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#1191 Bader

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Posted 26 September 2003 - 07:37 AM

What is the Jungle?
Distorted history/news, propoganda, political correctness,
social condition, biased education, misinformation, disinformation,
superstition, formal religion, pseudo-science and maybe a thousand other fragmentizers.
(Coops get people working in the same direction instead of acting
out social simulations of people lined up in traffic jams- beeping and shaking dice at one another. Eh DonQ)

Would removing the jungle remove the Lion?
Re the above demythalizing would turn the lion into a emporer wearing no clothes but that story had people pretending he was
clothed out of fear- the Lion lives on and everyone lives the pretence.
There doesn't seem to be much pressure on Blair of Bush to stand down or be dumped after their jungle of fabrications have been exposed.
Perhaps the jungle provides cover for many people- exposure is too heavy. Put it another way- if peole don't know whats wrong
or they don't want to know they have no responsibility to do anything.
The jungle could be just the real world and human nature but
that is too simplistic, there are social and political structures that
result from the lion nature of the machiavellian.

Another way of ''philosothising'' is to ask which comes first (the chicken or the egg) the Lion or the Jungle. Maybe both begets more of the other.
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#1192 donquijote

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Posted 26 September 2003 - 07:43 PM

<What is the Jungle?
Distorted history/news, propoganda, political correctness,
social condition, biased education, misinformation, disinformation,
superstition, formal religion, pseudo-science and maybe a thousand other fragmentizers.
(Coops get people working in the same direction instead of acting
out social simulations of people lined up in traffic jams- beeping and shaking dice at one another. Eh DonQ)>

Howdy Bader
We are becoming specialists in the big game...;)

When the lion is eating his prey the surrounding animals look with an empty stare--have you seen it in documentaries?--equivalent to "I don't care"--for you are hungry now--but when you press them they may go, "I really didn't notice anything," so it depends on your take whether the lion is the problem himself, or the complicity of the other animals at the upper end of the food chain, or the little animals themselves who are indifferent--or all of the above...;)

<Another way of ''philosothising'' is to ask which comes first (the chicken or the egg) the Lion or the Jungle. Maybe both begets more of the other. >

I think the lion created the jungle, and then the other predators surround him in an effort to partake in the feast. But getting rid of the lion may be risky and not even desirable for another will take his place. The only solution I see is to create an alternative water well for the little animals--something they must build themselves.

Have you seen 'Bowling for Columbine'? The director did a beautiful job at stripping the lion naked...;)

SOS! The Marines are needed!

(Recommended viewing of documentary: 'Bowling for Columbine.' Link below.)

Now that the Marines are being used to fight the problems of the world, it occurs to me of some other place where they are so badly needed.

The country I'm speaking about has the chilling record of 30,000 human beings killed by firearms each year. It is so dangerous that the streets are deserted, becoming no man's land. People live with so much fear that they refuse to talk to strangers. Shoot-outs break out among gangs in the middle of the street, taking bystanders' lives. Tourists must careful follow the map given at the airport, for fear of landing in the wrong neighborhood. Sharpshooters take aim on human targets. Disgruntled employees return to their workplaces to settle scores with bosses and fellow employees alike. It's so, but so bad that kids, fed with violence on TV, take guns to school, taking innocent lives. Meanwhile the TV ratings feed on violence...

I was going to say what place I am talking about, but I'd better say goodbye because I see a stranger coming my way...

http://www.bowlingforcolumbine.com/
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#1193 caligulas

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Posted 26 September 2003 - 11:22 PM

I see that the discussion has drifted from Russia towards :"what would it take for USA to stay number 1?" .I say like the rabi: You are all right.Each man sees the world through the lens of he's own life and experience.The fact is that are two kind of peoples in this world:masters and slaves.Masters are masters because they live now and they do what they want,slaves live in the past and in the future ,always waiting to become masters and they do what is asked to do. A former president of Romania says at the end of his term that he didn't do what he wanted to do because no one gave him the power. Well ,that happens, you must take power ,otherwise the sharks will eat you. Eat or be eaten ,that's the most significant rule in this world .
When I was a child, my father had a wage of 300$ and my mother 350 $ ,we couldn't spend that money because all stores were empty, even the bread stores.I was amazed when I traveled in the Western Europe to see that each day the bread stores had bread for sale.The good thing is there was no unemployment,police picked up each morning and evening all beggers from the street and give them a job .After you finished school,you were automatically sent to an enterprise ,which hardely you could change afterwards.Each one worked as much as (s)he wanted ,the bad thing was you had to stay there for 8 hours.It was a simple ,liniar life.People fell generally happy.All TV programs spoke about the great achievements of the communist party, supported by worker class and the defeat of capitalism by 2010.I was in the fifth grade when revolution came.Since the 4th grade I was a pioneer of the golden age and the head of my detachment ,made of 35 people. Each day ,I received report from my 3 group leaders about homework done, problems with family because of alcohol influence etc. and I gave report to my senior teacher and unit leader,who had to make decisions.Once I learned from trust people of a family intention to escape in Australia.That was prevented and I was promoted as "responsable with the propaganda of the communist party" on all 4th grade detachments.In this high office ,I had to learn the doctrine and I received many important communist texts:"the manifest of the communist party", "thesis of april ","imperialism-the last stage of capitalism","what is to be done?" etc. ,which I read afterwards and I found interesting ideas: capitalism will divide in the third stage (the decline) into state-controled and private-controled capitalism,both systems will fall and then and only then communism will arise .
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#1194 Bader

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Posted 27 September 2003 - 08:33 AM

Thanks Caligulas,
it had drifted due to lack of fresh input which you have now
addressed.

Your post reminds me Of Khruschev's boarst that the West
meaning the U.S. probably in particular would be the author of
its own downfall, he described it as becoming like an over-ripe fruit that would fall into their hands.
Some might want to argue that the Soviet Union fell like an over-ripe fruit first into international bankers and their corporate Jackels first, but the prediction as you put it re the state and private capitalism has basically come true- working together they
represent fascism and although the state now is feeding the
corporates like the Carlisle Group and others at the expense of
the sacrificial youth (GIs) and pilling up the mountain of debt against future generations of Americans which will ravish their standard of living, now quite evident, it is also true that inspite of all the rheteric of the free-market the state is also getting more powerful in relation to the public and control over people.
Communism as a state bureaucratic means of controlling the
masses is a future option for the post-fascist free-market.
It is 5% who own the "cake", 15% who work for them feed on
the fat crumbs and 80% live on the smell. This not a banana
republic this is the pattern in the developed world and the poverty line is moving up the 80%. I can't think of a better way
for the powers that be to control the 80% than some form of
communism based on a cashless society. The micro-chip developed for humans is already available. It just needs a sept 11 event internationally to change everyones atitude overnight
when the time is right.
One way for Russia to become number one is to stay standing
when the rest loose their humanity and go on all fours. They have already been put through a foreshadow of the future and should be more awake than anyone else.

Masters and slaves: that is the law of excluded middle again=
the dialectic engine. I reject both, I am all for "other" which is
anarchy to the law of excluded middle.
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#1195 donquijote

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Posted 27 September 2003 - 05:14 PM

>>>A good leader decentralizes and subsidizes the distribution of vodka.<<<

<Even for vodka I am against subsidies.>

Howdy Pliny
I'm against subsidies and for free will based on education. But since the masses ain't educated we may start by taxing "cheap" junk food and channeling it into education and subsidies only *to the point of equal price*. I'll explain, an example, here in America a large bottle of Coke--maybe two litters, I never buy them--goes for under $1 but a cup of nutritous sugar-cane juice--a staple in the Caribbean--goes for aroung $1.75. It's clear to see our children are being manipulated by large corporation into buying junk. The Lion doesn't have mercy even for the kids of the human species...

Look at this...

<<I got another. ANY Commercial that causes me to be woken up with a
"Mommy I want x." X= numerous toys and junk foods.">>

<During the news this morning I heard about a study....kids have to nag
their parents an average of 9 times before they finally get X

Amazing what studies conduct...but more amazing is the effect of
advertising on our impressionable youth.>

Another advantage to the BBC--non-commercial TV--and Scandinavian countries--that ban commercials on kids' programs--is that you don't get nagged by your kids so often...

>>>OK, then let's make the 'Vodka Revolution'...<<<

<A bloodless coup...yes!>

Bloodless, Free, Epicurean Revolution...:D

"If I can't dance, I don't want to join your revolution."
-Emma Goldman (1869-1940) Anarchist Activist

Epicurus...

http://www.atomic-sw...ghts/index.html
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#1196 MarquisDeSade

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Posted 27 September 2003 - 06:56 PM

Originally posted by Bader
Howdy Marquis,

There are always several points/factors in posts and where and what they turn on (response by the following ones) is out of our control. Good things take time they say- it's the theme of a cheese ad on tv here. We are all subject to it.

Curitiba: I didn't say anything to discredit it. I merely gave you a warning of what to expect if you go into politics.
If the Governor or Mayor of Curitba has unlimited integrity etc then the citizens are most fortunate.
However I don't agree with depending on the key person/s in power, look at history, democratic society need principles that they own and people of integrity to serve them by those principles and using their power to protect those principles.
The strength of the people is then within them not outside them.
I would agree with you if you mean that once a society has become good then the type of leaders is crucial.
It then becomes important that the principles etc withhin society
is conducive to the right kind of people coming to power and
difficult for those who are not and have the power to recall if they
are changed by corruption or abuse power or fail their duty.



Hi bader, sorry for the late reply. i do agree with your views here except i see no examples of any democratic society from the past but of the swiss model. please enlighten me on this point. for a society to reach a democratic state, it is not easy at all. it take cohesive effort. and, a democratic society takes not one but many, unselfishly, capable to create such a system. this method would be long and draggy cause there would be disagreements from some and it's time consuming to convince them. the reason why i propose curitiba system is because all it takes is one single person and he alone can create wonders for many. democratic system is defintely nice but how long can one waits? frankly, i would love to live in a democratic society but it just take too much effort for it to happen. long process to create, destroy in a matter of second. this is the reason i chose curitiba over swiss.

cheers
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#1197 MarquisDeSade

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Posted 27 September 2003 - 07:09 PM

"]Hi Bader, Marquis

It wasn't more than a misunderstanding, and Bader explained it quite well.

Marquis, he's only saying the difficulty of a single honest man to the system. Like a said before, if he turns out good they may try to get rid of him, but if he turns bad... It's better to build institutions. Let's come out of the jungle. Let's tame the lion.;)"


Hi donq, sorry too for the late reply. yea i understood what he meant and i had explain my reason on my reply. the reason due to the time needed to build a system. one more point i like to ask you is: once the lion is tame, what about the tiger? i guess im more incline towards conservativism. what's you view on this?

cheers
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#1198 Bader

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Posted 28 September 2003 - 05:45 AM

Did I guess the right country you described DonQ?

I think you are too harsh on the corporates. Obviously they are
very social conscious when they make coke so cheap. Clearly they reason that after buying a bottle most peole would still have enough to buy something more wholesome.
As for the poll on pestering kids, maybe the tv is too loud that parents have to be told nine times by the kids whats good for them?

Howdy Marquis,

Thanks for getting back. Sorry I can't recall now what I said, it all moves along quite quickly. I recall saying at least a couple of times that there are no real democracies and Switz is the closest.
I can't think what I would have been referring to if I referred to the past. But I would expect that there have a number of good models in smaller communities over time, like Curitiba, which probably got swept up in larger polical changes.
Real democracy requires education. Unfortunately education has been largely cultivated to maintain the status quo.
If you ask anyone in the west what democracy was they would say- majority rule and free elections (that's four words) it would be rare for anyone to go any further than saying the same things in other words, because it is not taught.
Same with the money system. It is not taught, even in eonomics
because it is outside the economic system even though it governs the economy and industry etc.
Freedom has to be worked at like all good relationships and can't be taken for granted, but the majoirty will and loose all sorts of freedoms and get ripped off by people abusing the systems etc
and there is always a few who are eagle eyed and ask questions
and can smell when something stinks. So there has to be checks and balances and whistle blowers. No checks and balances the
whistle blowers waste their breath. The Swiss binding referenda
and power of veto are great for this.
The other factor in favour of democracy is that it does take time
and so it is harder to make mistakes, get hoodwinked etc. The
slowness (of a crowd) in general is a stablizer. The opposite is revolution (mindless mob out of emotional control) and gross instability with collateral damge. REvolutions are the work of elitists not the general public although they can manipulate the public to give weight to the move. Better to frustated than dead.
How long can one good leader in sole charge live? Then what?
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#1199 Volt

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Posted 28 September 2003 - 10:00 AM

how do you do Kaligula!
was interesting to read. The final of your speech did touch what was envisioned by the greatests minds - exactly "society of free and co-operative and intelligent individuals was possible ONLY when the total highest education and enlightenment of people is achieved, when the science is dominant over prejudices and ignorance, and the technology-industry is on its proper high level".
Before that, some sort of social chaos should have happened, just to force people to understand that there is not much of alternative.
That was a key notion, that Marx and Engels put into their teachings, based on the findings of the best Europian philosophers.
It has never happened, and probably will not. The life becomes more and more complicated, and people, instead of trying to conscienciously and honestly recognize it, lie more and more, and further entangle in the ongoing "bardak".
They mess up between freedom and order.
It is okay for evil people, but what about good, sane ones?
For how long this mess can last without becoming uncontrolable? Is the same possible with a nuclear reactor. Not for a minute.
I have studied people, and come to conclusion that most people do not even want to see, hear, learn, understand.
Under these conditions: how on the earth is it possible to resolve our, in first place, basic/material/simple problems?
People just refuse to see and acknowledge the truth, which is by Lenin's words "always concrete and never cannot be abstract".

Caligula,
do yourself understand that the society where you were born had no right to be called "communist", meaning that what was declared was only pretention and a cheat? It was, and especially in Romania, a "military communism". The difference is in adjectives, but they do bring the difference.
Like lion is just a lion, a dead lion is no more a danger, and an alive lion is still a threat to prey.
BTW, Russia after Khrustchev was very much different from your military "communist" Romania; basically, that's why all the "revolutions on the reverse" were possible in the former "communist" camp.

I with some sort of frustration watched Donkihote playing around with a sophisticated face on. He is a mathematician, but go and ask him if he understands that a simple turns into a complex and vice versa. I doubt he will answer. He will start right away messing all things into one basket and trying to make a sense of it(?).
And this is a person who supposed to have, well, if not excellent but very working apparutus of abstract and concrete thinking, which is, of course, required by mathematics.

And he is one of the best and intelligent people on this forum, not to mention the society.
Can we do some concrete results of this chaos of misunderstanding and the web of false pretentions?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
As a math teacher, Donkihote should have known it.

One extra unknown quantity turns the equation into unsolvable forever.
But no way, again and again, this indefinite "triop"(blab) which is just per se. No results. Why? Just eternal, indiscreet chattering.
Make fun of life!
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#1200 Bader

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Posted 28 September 2003 - 10:49 AM

Howdy Volt,

It would appear your beliefs are pretty much fundamentally
what the USSR was based on, which by inference claims that
anything less than these would end in chaos.
It is reasonable and expected that one would then ask how come the USSR only last about 70 years or so and that after being proped up by the U.S. taxpayer for more than half of that time.

Given the title of the thread it would be appropriate for you to say what they did wrong that they have made such a diametrically turn away from what you hold to be superior instead of perfecting what they had.

The other factor you point out that needs explaining is that if
people need to become more educated and cooperative then it would stand to reason that the world become less chaotic as time has gone by especially in the last hundred years when
governments have brought more order and security in general
and much of he populations in nations have been put through
state education systems.
The world seems to have arrived at a paradox of more control and less social security and deaths on huge un-natural scales.

"always concrete and never abstract"
Try selling that to any social scientist, politician or economist
and while you are at it any salesman in any age in history.
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