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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#1261 donquijote

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Posted 10 October 2003 - 08:13 PM

"we'll use our extra power to not only demand more from
them (great, but not enough) but to Build more for ourselves, until we
reach 100% self-sufficiency for any human being who wants to have
freedom from wage-slavery; those who want to continue being
wage-slaves and do so"

and...

"I can GET
20 hours per week (plus a democratically worker-run workplace, plus
much more) OVER THERE. Now, what counter-offer do you have for me to
get me to want to continue to work for YOU?"

and...

"My vision is to have a large scale national (and eventually global)
growth of networks of autonimous but interdependent and cooperating
groups which nurture one another"

*How we get there, Bader? There's one way: Some movement--like ours--getting to power with these ideas...*

<Depends on the importance/extent of its development, but not likely initially, I would expect. Would probabaly go to the deputy Minister of Industry.>

Howdy Bader
Now we are talking business... I'd favor a Ministry of Coops both for channeling the right resources to the coops--these should be self-sufficient--and for psychological reasons. Everybody will get the message that we mean business. A secondary effect of that will be that those *not* joining the coops will also benefit for the simple reason that then it will be the employers looking for the employees not the other way around, increasing the value of labor. At this point I don't think even the "living wages" would be necessary. In other words, we would be giving *competition* to the capitalist enterprises, something the capitalists should be happy for, at least theoretically...;)

<Given the broader and longer time factor a variety of small
"enterprises" could sporn there eg publishing, retail, design, media, professional sport, arts and so on and probably could become a self-contained city.>

It makes sense to me.

<Such "cities" could be run on democratic financing (internal
money) , not debt and no taxes, as a learning model.
No capitalists, everyone is a winners, some win more then others as they are more specialist or inovative, not by exploiting.>

Perhaps cities can adopt the Curitiba model--in which Marquis is an expert by now;)--since a cosmopolitan area needs a lot of coordination, and the rest can adopt coops ranging from the kibbutz through the Mondragon coops to the capitalist enterprises...

By the way, Bader, what's your favorite type of coop?

And now let's go back to the last section of the article above. Again I'll throw a few comments in [...]

'At this point if I say, "but the employers are correct
for saying that 'The Economic IN ITS PRESENT FORM [my added words]
would crumble'" then we are probably in heated agreement, that if it
did under these conditions I just outlined, alternatives would be in
place.

But, even if you don't agree with me that it's *necessary* to have
such "credible threats" of worker-owned/run workplaces before
capitalists ever move remotely close to 20hours/week, it's enough that
you agree that it's a helpful force. And certainly , even less, *it's
enough if you agree that not being a wage-slave, not having a boss* [not having a lion!;)],
but having democratically worker-run workplaces are a Good Thing,
then I hope you will agree with his as a program towards, a tactic
towards, the 20 hours per week, rather than restricting our strategy
and tactics only to "head to head versus employers"

I hope this makes sense..

So when you write

"*You can be sure the capitalists will fight this with every weapon in
their already immense arsenal*"

I think at just how much turmoil the system has been in
for far, far less radical demands, even
even $1/hour in min wage SCARES
hell out of them, and a few revelations (WorldCOM, Enron, etc) have
been enough to kick the daylights out of the stock market like you
haven't seen in 30 years..

*Again this is a CRITIQUE of "capitalism" (I put the term in quotes;
I'm not sure it accurately describes are economic system which is
state-coordinated, powerful-are-protected-from-market-forces, etc) NOT
a defense*.

But they speak the truth when they
say the economy couldn't handle it...I can't prove that
no capitalist system could accommodate it, but certainly
nothing like corporate capitalism in its present form could support
doubling people's wages and giving them extra leisure to boot.
Again, even if you're not convinced of this, surely you will agree
that if something which is independently desirable, and could
help pressure employers in that direction, is worth doing.

I do NOT disagree with your suggestion that those who are
in contact with working class folks, those doing labor
organizing etc, "start talking to workers about a 20 hour week".

But those of us working for fundamental systemic change on the
national/global level rather than day-to-day organizing, must realize
and take into account that quit simply that is NOT how it's going to
happen. I supported Nader's running for President even though I knew
he wouldn't win because it would advance progressive social movements
and DO GOOD. *Similarly talking about 30 and 20 hour weeks can and
could DO GOOD*. But it's not going to happen. I'm not saying we're not
going to win; on the contrary; but we're not going to win that way.

The way we will Win is when they start to make concession in that
direction when there is a Credible Threat of worker-run collectives
across the country (and world) who to a greater and greater extent,
dont' Need the corporation in order for people to supply the basic
material needs they have for survival. Then, instead of saying "ok,
we'll take your 31 hours a week offer and destroy our autonomous
collectives" *we'll use our extra power to not only demand more from
them (great, but not enough) but to Build more for ourselves, until we
reach 100% self-sufficiency for any human being who wants to have
freedom from wage-slavery; those who want to continue being
wage-slaves and do so* [ie, build alternative water wells for those who wish]. I don't have any doubts as to the (long-term)
decisions people will (eventually) make given a real choice like that.

So what I've been trying to argue is, even if you are not convinced
that capitalism "can't handle" 20hours/week, as you ARE on the
Anarchist page, I imagine that getting 20 hours per week like
"working for the man" is NOT your "ultimate" quest; rather, a liberated
workforce which is democratically run and self-governing and not under
an employer's rule. Right..?

Well I am stating, we don't' have to Wait Until we win that battle for
20 hours a week from employer, to only THEN fight for the next step
(or several steps ahead) of eliminating wage slavery.

Actually I'm saying much more: not only we don't have to wait, but we
Must Not wait. And not only because workers deserve for us to move in
that direction because they deserve to be free, but because the extent
to which we *partially* get there (meaning, the number of
democratically run workplaces/collectives available for workers)
is the extent to which workers negotiating power vis a vis their
employers will be hugely increased.

There are other parallel struggles:

Likewise, while we should continue to fight for national nonprofit
health care as a right for all, we need to create grassroot
co-insurance networks which, step by step, move towards providing
that. As such, *we don't beg for the corporate state to give it; we
TAKE it for ourselves; you'll be amazed at how "generous" the
corporate-state nexus will become when we have barely achieved 50% of
it for ourselves independently of them; they will suddenly offer to
do something for us when they realize we don't NEED them because we
can get it for ourselves*.

Similarly, there is a power shift of a gigantic order of magnitude, to
the extent that a worker, or group of workers, can tell the boss (or
the corporation) and tell the truth when saying this: *I can GET
20 hours per week (plus a democratically worker-run workplace, plus
much more) OVER THERE. Now, what counter-offer do you have for me to
get me to want to continue to work for YOU?*"

The dynamics of the negotiation are radically altered from begging, or
even "pressuring" for them TO GIVE TO US what we want, to one where
we ALREADY CAN provide for ourselves what we want (or a substantial
percent of it, at least...) and ask them for a counter-offer. This is
extremely potent, as you can see!

While the 11-point program for action you suggest includes
issues for fight for which are all admirable, they are great
reformist measures that folks like Sen. Paul Wellstone and Bernie
Sanders and the Greens and many others can and should fight for, but
are not -- with the exception of your item 2 with its mention of
anarcho-syndicalist organizing -- are not aimed towards eliminating
the lord/serf master/slave relationship that you are as aware of as I,
namely the employer/employee relationship.

What I'm suggesting is an expansion on item 2, in tune both with our
ideals, and with the pragmatics of changing the balance of power

*My vision is to have a large scale national (and eventually global)
growth of networks of autonimous but interdependent and cooperating
groups which nurture one another*' [How we get there, Bader? There's one way: Some movement--like ours--getting to power with these ideas...]
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#1262 MarquisDeSade

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Posted 10 October 2003 - 08:42 PM

"Now, a good question (and I think is good since for once my wife guessed what I meant) is: Who you think should have led the Revolution? "


hi donq, my choice would be benjamin. he has the character to be a leader; being steadfast, impartial, far sighted, knowledgable, wise are of what is needed of good leader. in addition, i would pick muriel as the advisor. in fact, animalism work well initially as the animals were really happy and free nut somewhere along you can see the coniving and greedy characters of pigs. this is a good example why i would rather choose a good leader than a good system - of course, there is a need for a good system but can the future generation carry out the doctrination of the system? that is another problem. what do you suggest?

(I have not check out the current situation in curitiba. as for my knowledge, jaime lerner is no longer the governor. i certainly hope that it's improving, and not the contrary.)


PS: what is your pick? btw, it's a good question. really good.

sade
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#1263 donquijote

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Posted 10 October 2003 - 09:48 PM

<hi donq, my choice would be benjamin. he has the character to be a leader; being steadfast, impartial, far sighted, knowledgable, wise are of what is needed of good leader. in addition, i would pick muriel as the advisor. in fact, animalism work well initially as the animals were really happy and free nut somewhere along you can see the coniving and greedy characters of pigs. this is a good example why i would rather choose a good leader than a good system - of course, there is a need for a good system but can the future generation carry out the doctrination of the system? that is another problem. what do you suggest?>

Howdy Marquis
I think it's of great importance to analyze this.

No, I would not have voted for Benjamin. He never believed in anything, and he happened to be right.

I'd have voted for...Boxer. One reason would be he would never have betrayed the revolution and another reason is he was an *example* himself for others.

True, he didn't have the qualities of what is usually called "leadership," but I'd argue that the little animals would have been forced to make up for that by they themselves coming up with solutions. In other words, strong leader=weak little animals and viceversa.

The characters are summarized below...

http://www.k-1.com/O...ries/animf.html

<(I have not check out the current situation in curitiba. as for my knowledge, jaime lerner is no longer the governor. i certainly hope that it's improving, and not the contrary.)>

I'll try to do some research on Curitiba, but I don't have any news of it getting worse, and President Lula should take the example to other cities...
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#1264 MarquisDeSade

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Posted 11 October 2003 - 08:06 AM

"Howdy Marquis
I think it's of great importance to analyze this.

No, I would not have voted for Benjamin. He never believed in anything, and he happened to be right.

I'd have voted for...Boxer. One reason would be he would never have betrayed the revolution and another reason is he was an *example* himself for others.

True, he didn't have the qualities of what is usually called "leadership," but I'd argue that the little animals would have been forced to make up for that by they themselves coming up with solutions. In other words, strong leader=weak little animals and viceversa.

The characters are summarized below..."

Hi donq, this is an interesting point of view. and yes, it needs to be analyse.

here is my view: i think it's a little too general. little animals consist of many different kinds(species) and what about the big animals? the world is created with big and small, or even middle, animals. do you mean the big animals metamorphosize into the smaller ones?

i think animal farm is really well written. george orwell depicted many basic and natural characteristics of mankind. it's not a one sided view. as a matter of fact, arent the characters, the pigs, horses, sheep, dogs, donkey, raven, of the small animals?

the reason why i didnt chose boxer is mostly due to his lack of intellect. im not discriminating against the lack of but the world is not equal. like in nature, it's diverse. every living thing has it's role to play; each has their own strengths and weakness, and a place where one would feel comfortable. i admire his dilligence for it's exemplary for others to learn and follow.

the only fault i could think of benjamin is his indifferences and passiveness. if he had been more active from the start, boxer would not have suffer so much, and hence the contrast of the ending.

the excerpts from the story: The animals were all at work weeding turnips under the supervision of a pig, when they were astonished to see Benjamin come galloping from the direction of the farm buildings, braying at the top of his voice. It was the first time that they had ever seen Benjamin excited-indeed, it was the first time that anyone had ever seen him gallop. "Quick, quick!" he shouted. "Come at once! They're taking Boxer away!" Without waiting for orders from the pig, the animals broke off work and raced back to the farm buildings. Sure enough, there in the yard was a large closed van, drawn by two horses, with lettering on its side and a sly-looking man in a low-crowned bowler hat sitting on the driver's seat. And Boxer's stall was empty.

The animals crowded round the van. "Good-bye, Boxer!" they chorused, "good-bye!"

"Fools! Fools!" shouted Benjamin, prancing round them and stamping the earth with his small hoofs. "Fools! Do you not see what is written on the side of that van?"

That gave the animals pause, and there was a hush. Muriel began to spell out the words. But Benjamin pushed her aside and in the midst of a deadly silence he read:

" 'Alfred Simmonds, Horse Slaughterer and Glue Boiler, Willingdon. Dealer in Hides and Bone-Meal. Kennels Supplied.' Do you not understand what that means? They are taking Boxer to the knacker's! "

at this point, anyone, benjamin must had thoughts of regret and shows that he created an illiterate mask.

in my views, for the degeneration, depraving, demeaning, of society of morals of ethics are cause by the escapism and dishonesty of truth in the truest sense. like pot, it can be used as a cure for certain illness or be used for pleasures but the lack of control causes the user to abuse - drug addict - and waste one's life. there is a serious need of balancing act. are we doing this well enough to continue the human legacy? this is for all to ponder.


cheers

sade
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#1265 donquijote

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Posted 11 October 2003 - 05:38 PM

<here is my view: i think it's a little too general. little animals consist of many different kinds(species) and what about the big animals? the world is created with big and small, or even middle, animals. do you mean the big animals metamorphosize into the smaller ones?>

Howdy Marquis
We got a saying that goes, "It's a fight between lion and monkey--and the monkey is tied up..." that probably inspired me to write these little stories. The lion wants to play by the law of the jungle but he doesn't want competition.

I've thought that's almost inevitable that a strong leader develops into a tyrant. Perhaps is human nature, perhaps is the circle around him that benefits from the jungle, for those at the top end of the food chain would almost certainly vote to keep the jungle...;)

A fact from real life: I hand out a flyer with the solution being proposed here, and there go by my side, lawyers, goverment officials, engineers, la-creme-de-la-creme and not a single one of them stop to take it. A roar here a roar there, that's all. So I must conclude, "S***, these people are lions!"

Then the little animals--not all, but most--do stop and discuss the matter, and make suggestions, and ask questions. So I must conclude it's the Proles that must bring about the change. Sorry, the Big Animals are the problem.

Now, what to do with them? I'd build the water well for the little animals and let predators find the food however they can, but not the easy way. Perhaps then it won't be a fight between a lion and a tied up monkey, competition indeed...;)

<the reason why i didnt chose boxer is mostly due to his lack of intellect. im not discriminating against the lack of but the world is not equal. like in nature, it's diverse. every living thing has it's role to play; each has their own strengths and weakness, and a place where one would feel comfortable. i admire his dilligence for it's exemplary for others to learn and follow.>

But Boxer, or whoever is honest yet incapable, can surround himself with honest capable experts. I don't see why not a leader can't stand up there and say frankly, "Gee, I don't know about this but we can get experts on this and that." It's like me relying on Bader for economics...;)

Remember Marquis, like the Owl in my little story, the scientists are being paid--to look the other way.:confused:

<in my views, for the degeneration, depraving, demeaning, of society of morals of ethics are cause by the escapism and dishonesty of truth in the truest sense. like pot, it can be used as a cure for certain illness or be used for pleasures but the lack of control causes the user to abuse - drug addict - and waste one's life. there is a serious need of balancing act. are we doing this well enough to continue the human legacy? this is for all to ponder.>

We may as well be addicted to something that's killing us--the Lie.

http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote
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#1266 donquijote

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Posted 11 October 2003 - 06:36 PM

I posted this debate about kibbutz for the world at this forum...but it "disappeared"!

http://pub4.bravenet...m=309082756&cp=

Of course, I proposed that it would *not* be named kibbutz nor have any relationship with Judaism *and* that it should a much shorter workweek--30 hrs--and have more cultural activities.

Could the kibbutz have been an institution allowed to the little animals of a particular species, but not to others? Could it be that the lion only preys on other little animals--those in other jungles?

Maybe we should start by looking for a better name for the new coops--with no lion...;) Meanwhile we'll call it the "water well"...
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#1267 MarquisDeSade

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Posted 12 October 2003 - 02:12 PM

"Howdy Marquis
We got a saying that goes, "It's a fight between lion and monkey--and the monkey is tied up..." that probably inspired me to write these little stories. The lion wants to play by the law of the jungle but he doesn't want competition."

Hi donq, that is a fight between the lion and the monkey only of small animals but there are still the horses,rabbits, etc...since the monkey is tied, there are still other small animals. isnt it too pessimistic too fast to say the small animals are as good as helpless?


"I've thought that's almost inevitable that a strong leader develops into a tyrant. Perhaps is human nature, perhaps is the circle around him that benefits from the jungle, for those at the top end of the food chain would almost certainly vote to keep the jungle...;)"

one good example of a strong leader who didnt succumb to abuse of his power is jaime lerner. what he had done for curitiba is for all to see. my only doubt is whether his legacy will be continue. and, a strong leader would correctly choose his subordinate to excute tasks properly. it is mostly about the characteristic of the individual.



"But Boxer, or whoever is honest yet incapable, can surround himself with honest capable experts. I don't see why not a leader can't stand up there and say frankly, "Gee, I don't know about this but we can get experts on this and that." It's like me relying on Bader for economics...;)"

yes, you can rely on the capable experts for him. but, seriously, if a leader make such a statement. will the majority have confidence on him to lead? in my opinion, i doubt it. and isnt this similar, or is, monarchy?


"Remember Marquis, like the Owl in my little story, the scientists are being paid--to look the other way.:confused:"

this is because the owl dont have a clue what there are doing. have it question the outcome of it's research?

sade
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#1268 donquijote

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Posted 13 October 2003 - 03:03 AM

<Hi donq, that is a fight between the lion and the monkey only of small animals but there are still the horses,rabbits, etc...since the monkey is tied, there are still other small animals. isnt it too pessimistic too fast to say the small animals are as good as helpless?>

Howdy Marquis
The monkey is only doing the job for others who should be doing their own fight. This represents two dangers: to the monkey himself--who may lose his life--and to the little animals--if he survives. (He may go like, "Gee, I took the chance, I deserve this"). A perfect fight is one where there's no violence and everybody chips in. The leader retires at the moment of victory.

<one good example of a strong leader who didnt succumb to abuse of his power is jaime lerner. what he had done for curitiba is for all to see. my only doubt is whether his legacy will be continue. and, a strong leader would correctly choose his subordinate to excute tasks properly. it is mostly about the characteristic of the individual. >

OK, highest honors to Jaime Lerner. However if we could rely on that type of solution, all we got to do is send these proposals to the rest of the leaders--and wait. (Chances are we'll be waiting forever.)

One problem with most leaders, even the most idealists, is that as soon as they get to power, they make power alliances with all sorts of lions. I haven't seen one single one in the last 40 years in Latin America not to ally himself with Castro, or at least flirt with him. Chavez went that way and Lula is in the flirting process. Sorry, at the national lever seems to be little hope other than getting rid of *all* lions.

<yes, you can rely on the capable experts for him. but, seriously, if a leader make such a statement. will the majority have confidence on him to lead? in my opinion, i doubt it. and isnt this similar, or is, monarchy?>

We want the people to have confidence--in themselves. Once they belong to an economic, political entity like the coop or the city most of their business will be conducted with those entities.

//"Remember Marquis, like the Owl in my little story, the scientists are being paid--to look the other way.:confused:"//

<this is because the owl dont have a clue what there are doing. have it question the outcome of it's research?>

Regrettably, looking to improve the conditions of the jungle doesn't pay. The lion benefits from it. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. Even Boxer could do it...;)

PS: This exchange of ideas is good. Nobody wins but the truth.

One thing we got to beat is the Lie...

Elian Gonzalez: The Price of the Lie

http://engforum.prav...&threadid=37992
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#1269 donquijote

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Posted 13 October 2003 - 04:17 AM

See what I mean, Marquis?
Lula's playing with lions on the one hand, and playing it safe with the other. Even the tamed Scandinavian lions play the same game...:confused: (I published somewhere a clip about the Norwegian defense minister--a woman--"flirting" with the big lion.)

Super Lula

Sylvie Duchamp, Revista Cambio (liberal magazine), Bogot?, Colombia, June 25, 2003

A S?o Paulo woman puts the final touches on a giant Carnival effigy of Brazilian President Luiz In?cio Lula da Silva, Feb. 24, 2003 (Photo: Mauricio Lima/AFP-Getty Images).
The timing was excellent last week for Luiz In?cio Lula da Silva, the president of Brazil, who received the Prince of Asturias Prize for International Cooperation in Oviedo, Spain. The award was given for his ?admirable record of fighting for justice,- his status as a ?symbol of hope,- and his role as ?the promoter of political attitudes marked by good sense.- He got the prize at a time when, contrary to all predictions, the indications from his first six months in office are positive. The skepticism of those who believed that his lack of experience might lead Brazil to economic meltdown is now slowly evaporating.

Lula has proved to be a capable negotiator and a decisive executive. Every day it is clearer that, even though he won office with his left hand, he is now governing with his right. Those who accused him of being a dogmatic socialist have been forced to eat their words. Lula and his party?the Workers- Party, or PT?arrived in Bras?lia and grasped the reins of the economy, which was in a very uncertain condition. When it became clear he might be elected, the country was perceived to be at great risk, and the value of the real [Brazilian unit of currency] plummeted. And then just when observers closed their eyes so they would not have to watch the disaster hit, Lula chose to continue his predecessor-s economic orthodoxy and followed the recipe to the letter.

He has been so rigorous in his economic policy that this week former President Fernando Henrique Cardoso asked whether this much austerity was necessary. The debate, however, has made it plain that globalization is a road that must be taken. The hope of the millions who voted for him is that he will turn out, in the end, to embody neo-liberalism with a kinder face.

more...

http://www.worldpres...ericas/1417.cfm

meanwhile...

Lula talks business with Castro
By Marc Frank, Reuters
Sep 27, 2003, 07:43

Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva met his old friend Fidel Castro on Friday during a visit to Cuba that he has stressed will focus on business, not human rights.

After their talks Lula and Castro were expected to preside over the signing of a series of cooperation agreements.

Lula's two-day visit to the communist-run nation is as a test of his delicate relationship with Washington and of his readiness to champion human rights as he seeks to carve out a role as a world statesman.

Lula made clear on the eve of the trip that he would not broach the human rights issue because the focus would be on boosting commercial ties.

"We have agreements to sign and celebrate ... I don't give opinions about the internal political conditions of other countries," Lula said on Thursday at the end of a trip to Mexico.

Brazil is trying to regain its place as Cuba's 10th trade partner, which was taken over by the United States last year under a softening of U.S. sanctions on the island allowing food sales for cash.

*Cash, that's the name of the ballgame!!!*

http://www.latinpetr...icle_2086.shtml
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#1270 donquijote

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Posted 13 October 2003 - 04:46 AM

I think "collective dream" is the key, as the men come and go. I don't know how updated this is, but it shows how important is the involvement of the little people in a no-nonsense approach...

Curitiba and its visionary mayor

Residents of Curitiba, Brazil, think they live in the best city in the world, and a lot of outsiders agree. Curibita has 17 new parks, 90 miles of bike paths, trees everywhere, and traffic and garbage systems that officials from other cities come to study. Curibita's mayor for twelve years, Jaime Lerner, has a 92 per cent approval rating.

There is nothing special about Curitiba's history, location or population. Like all Latin American cities, the city has grown enormously - from 150,000 people in the 1950s to 1.6 million now. It has its share of squatter settlements, where fewer than half the people are literate. Curibita's secret, insofar that it has one, seems to be simple willingness from the people at the top to get their kicks from solving problems.

Those people at the top started in the 1960s with a group of young architects who were not impressed by the urban fashion of borrowing money for big highways, massive buildings, shopping malls and other showy projects. They were thinking about the environment and about human needs. They approached Curibita's mayor, pointed to the rapid growth of the city and made a case for better planning.

The mayor sponsored a contest for a Curibita master plan. He circulated the best entries, debated them with the citizens, and then turned the people's comments over to the upstart architects, asking them to develop and implement a final plan.

Jaime Lerner was one of these architects. In 1971 he was appointed mayor by the then military government of Brazil.

Given Brazil's economic situation, Lerner had to think small, cheap and participatory - which was how he was thinking anyway. He provided 1.5 million tree seedlings to neighbourhoods for them to plant and care for. ('There is little in the architecture of a city that is more beautifully designed than a tree,' says Lerner.)

He solved the city's flood problems by diverting water from lowlands into lakes in the new parks. He hired teenagers to keep the parks clean.

He met resistance from shopkeepers when he proposed turning the downtown shopping district into a pedestrian zone, so he suggested a thirty-day trial. The zone was so popular that shopkeepers on the other streets asked to be included. Now one pedestrian street, the Rua das Flores, is lined with gardens tended by street children.

Orphaned or abandoned street children are a problem all over Brazil. Lerner got each industry, shop and institution to 'adopt' a few children, providing them with a daily meal and a small wage in exchange for simple maintenance gardening or office chores.

Another Lerner innovation was to organise the street vendors into a mobile, open-air fair that circulates through the city's neighbourhoods.

Concentric circles of local bus lines connect to five lines that radiate from the centre of the city in a spider web pattern. On the radial lines, triple-compartment buses in their own traffic lanes carry three hundred passengers each. They go as fast as subway cars, but at one-eightieth the construction cost.

The buses stop at Plexiglas tube stations designed by Lerner. Passengers pay their fares, enter through one end of the tube, and exit from the other end. This system eliminates paying on board, and allows faster loading and unloading, less idling and air pollution, and a sheltered place for waiting - though the system is so efficient that there isn't much waiting. There isn't much littering either. There isn't time.

Curitiba's citizens separate their trash into just two categories, organic and inorganic, for pick-up by two kinds of trucks. Poor families in squatter settlements that are unreachable by trucks bring their trash bags to neighbourhood centres, where they can exchange them for bus tickets or for eggs, milk, oranges and potatoes, all bought from outlying farms.

The trash goes to a plant (itself built of recycled materials) that employs people to separate bottles from cans from plastic. The workers are handicapped people, recent immigrants, alcoholics.

Recovered materials are sold to local industries. Styrofoam is shredded to stuff quilt for the poor. The recycling programme costs no more than the old landfill, but the city is cleaner, there are more jobs, farmers are supported and the poor get food and transportation. Curitiba recycles two-thirds of it garbage - one of the highest rates of any city, north or south.

Curitiba builders get a tax break if their projects include green areas.

Jaime Lerner says, 'There is no endeavour more noble than the attempt to achieve a collective dream. When a city accepts as a mandate its quality of life; when it respects the people who live in it; when it respects the environment; when it prepares for future generations, the people share the responsibility for that mandate, and this shared cause is the only way to achieve that collective dream.'

http://www.globalide.../BI/BI-262.HTML
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#1271 donquijote

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Posted 13 October 2003 - 05:00 AM

Notice the affiliation of Jaime Lerner...

WEAVING THE WEB OF SOLUTIONS: THE CURITIBA EXAMPLE

Curitiba is a southeastern Brazilian city with the population of Houston or Philadelphia. It shares with hundreds of similar-sized cities a dangerous combination of scant resources plus explosive population growth. Curitiba's metro-area population grew from about 300,000 in 1950 to 2.1 million in 1990, when 42 percent of the population was under the age of 18. Another million residents are expected by 2020.

Most cities so challenged, in Brazil as throughout the South, have become centers of poverty, unemployment, squalor, disease, illiteracy, inequity, congestion, pollution, corruption, and despair. Yet by combining responsible government with vital entrepreneurship, Curitiba has achieved just the opposite. Though starting with the dismal economic profile typical of its region, in nearly three decades *the city has achieved measurably better levels of education, health, human welfare, public safety, democratic participation, political integrity, environmental protection, and community spirit than its neighbors, and some would say than most cities in the United States*. It has done so not by instituting a few economic megaprojects but by implementing hundreds of multipurpose, cheap, fast, simple, homegrown, people-centered initiatives harnessing market mechanisms, common sense, and local skills. It has flourished by treating all its citizens
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#1272 Bader

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Posted 13 October 2003 - 10:29 AM

Howdy Donq Q.

The intent of those pastings have some merit but like the green dollar alternative it is only small time stuff. With respect for Curitiba it is a smalltime operation and Brazil hasn't turned around
because of it.
The author has not adopted the traditional worker v. the bosses
but the adversary approach is still there and you will probably
find the socialists/militant union types will also be apposed and fight the movement as it will strip them of power. Liberal socialists will go with it though and take their mindsets with them which with continue to think within the same square they are supposed to be leaving.
I am not convinced these people are actually a true alternative to the dialectic approach which has been going on for over a hundred and fifty years which Marx was contracted to provide an ideology for unity and bring order (control the fight) to the adversaries of the capitalists. They also ignore the financial
powerhouse of capitalism. Anyone who doesn't know their enemy
will end up fighting for the Lions cause.

Take these quotes-
"employers will look for employees"
They already are. They have found them in China, Indonesia etc
and on lower wages and conditions.
"corporate capitalism in its present form couldn't support doubling
wages.........presure employers in that direction is worth doing"
How do you presure they to do what has just been said can't be done. Shareholders will abandone them if they didnt get the returns plus a whole lot of other reasons. As I said this dream is
over a hundred years old.
"We can already get what we want."
This is supposed to pursued the corporates to want them more.
They will say well if you already have it what are you doing here?
It is still basically the workers v the bosses. Its a fixed fight
and it can go another 150 years.
It is the whole of society that is being screwed- public and private sectors, business people and workers. Divide them into opposing camps serves the interest of the elite. Unite the victims is a whole new dimension. The truth about the money system can do this.
Twenty hour weeks on full pay is very possible, at no extra expense to the business world, so there is not fight with the workers, under a democratic and honest/just finance system but
not under the present fraudulent system.
People dont take the time to look at the powerhouse of capitalism and get their heads around it, then think they can
scall the walls and take over. They divert people away from the
where the answer lies just as Marx before them.
It is not just the money system that is shrouded in mystique,
misinformation etc it carries through ther economic thinking into
the political world and the media and thus everyone is conditioned to similar thought processes that keep everyone
captured, even when people argue within the mindset that
has been established. The thinking in these pastings is just another example.
Many people can see the system stinks but most don't understand how, only why. The Coops are excellent models of
how things can work better but it is just a fragment, like Curitiba,
an island in a poluted sea. It is similar to how I would expect the world to be under a new financial system and even better
because it would have the finance to carry the same approach
to society to a greater level.
Any large development requires money, but everyone is thinking of doing things as if no money is involved. The existing system doesn't allow the possibility of twenty hours on full pay, but they
want to have it anyway without changing the money system.
Making business people scapegoats is nonsense and ignorance.
You asked what my favourite type of coop is. I don't have one.
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#1273 MarquisDeSade

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Posted 13 October 2003 - 01:45 PM

"Howdy Marquis
The monkey is only doing the job for others who should be doing their own fight. This represents two dangers: to the monkey himself--who may lose his life--and to the little animals--if he survives. (He may go like, "Gee, I took the chance, I deserve this"). A perfect fight is one where there's no violence and everybody chips in. The leader retires at the moment of victory."

Hi donq, as far as i understood you. this is not what you meant.( i wont qoute from the comment you made as i deem unnecessary) they is no need for a fight between the lion and the monkey if peace is use to resolve matters.


"OK, highest honors to Jaime Lerner. However if we could rely on that type of solution, all we got to do is send these proposals to the rest of the leaders--and wait. (Chances are we'll be waiting forever.)"

this is so pessimisstic, waiting forever... what makes you so sure that your proposal wouldnt sit in the shelves?ultimately, it's all about advocating your ideals and importantly, do it. do you think hitler can dicatate germany with him sitting in a corner? this is part of the speech given by jaime lerner who said it during the INGP meetin in 1999 for your pessimism,
'In his speech Mr Lerner gave an overview of the vision and philosophy he had 30 years ago, which gradually have come to live in Curitiba and is now being implemented in numerous other municipalities in the State of Paran?. He clearly does not agree with the doom scenario about cities with ever growing populations, traffic jams, crime, street children etc. If we predict very pessimistic views about the future, people will regard themselves as terminal patients and will not be motivated to act to avoid the tragedy. "Trends are not a destiny, they are the starting point for change".



"One problem with most leaders, even the most idealists, is that as soon as they get to power, they make power alliances with all sorts of lions. I haven't seen one single one in the last 40 years in Latin America not to ally himself with Castro, or at least flirt with him. Chavez went that way and Lula is in the flirting process. Sorry, at the national lever seems to be little hope other than getting rid of *all* lions."

on contrary, you get the most praised and look upon city in the world which is from latin america. isnt this irony or what?


"We want the people to have confidence--in themselves. Once they belong to an economic, political entity like the coop or the city most of their business will be conducted with those entities."


the system of the city are operated by the laws setted, rules and regulation. therefore the legal system must be fair, ,just and most importantly, for it's citizens. the reason why people are exploited is because of laws favouring businesses. naturally, they(businesses & companies) will use it to their advantages. it all depends on the legislation and the type of system it is.



"Regrettably, looking to improve the conditions of the jungle doesn't pay. The lion benefits from it. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. Even Boxer could do it...;)"

im sorry to say that you just shot yourself on your feet.

PS: yes, i certainly agree with you. truth is what it matters. i know i may be a bit harsh and forgive me if i have offended. i speak frankly truthfully.

cheers

sade
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#1274 MarquisDeSade

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Posted 13 October 2003 - 01:52 PM

Hi bader, sorry to interupt this thread, i say you do not understand the thread by donq at all. you simply brush it aside and place yours on the high ground. speaking like a bigot, i seriously doubt your proposal can work. one example i like to share with you is: if a child cannot do simple multiplication, like 2 of 4, where does the problem lie, the child or the equation?

sade
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#1275 MarquisDeSade

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Posted 13 October 2003 - 04:21 PM

Hi donq , bader and people who are reading this post. this link http://truth.5u.com/custom2.html will tell you what has really happened in our current turbulent times. it seem endless...pray to live well.

excerpts :

Money "Creating" Profitable


As is seen by the above, money is very cheap to make, and whomever does the "creating" of money in a nation can make a tremendous profit! That profit is part of our story, but first let us consider another unique characteristic of the thing -- money, the love of which is the "root of all evil."

Adequate Money Supply Needed


An adequate supply of money is indispensable to civilized society. An overstatement, you say? Not at all. Money is the blood of civilized society, the means of all commercial trade except simple barter. It is the measure and the instrument by which one product is sold and another purchased. Remove money or even reduce the supply below that which is necessary to carry on current levels of trade, and the results are catastrophic. For an example, we need only look at America's Depression of the early 1930's.

The Bankers Depression of the 1930's


In 1930 America did not lack industrial capacity, fertile farmland, skilled and willing workers or industrious farm families. It had an extensive and highly efficient transportation system in railroads, road networks, inland and ocean waterways. Communications between regions were the best in the world, utilizing telephone, teletype, radio, and a well-operated government mail system. No war had ravaged the cities or the countryside, no pestilence weakened the population, nor had famine stalked the land. The United States of America in 1930 lacked only one thing: an adequate supply of money.

In the early 1930's, Bankers, the only source of new money and credit, deliberately refused loans to industries, stores and farms. Payments on existing loans were required however, and money rapidly disappeared from circulation. Goods were available to be purchased, jobs waiting to be done, but the lack of money brought the nation to a standstill. By this simple ploy America was intentionally put in a "depression" and the greedy Bankers took possession of hundreds of thousands of farms, homes, and business properties. The people were told, "times are hard," and "money is short." Not understanding the system, they were cruelly robbed of their earnings, their savings, and their property.

Money for Peace? No! Money for War? Yes!


World War II ended the "depression." The same Bankers who in the early 30's had refused loans for peacetime houses, food and clothing, suddenly had unlimited billions to lend for Army barracks, K-rations and uniforms! A nation that in 1934 couldn't produce food for sale, suddenly could produce bombs to send free to Germany and Japan!

With the sudden increase in money, people were hired, farmers sold their produce, factories went to two shifts, mines re-opened, and "The Great Depression" was over! Some politicians were blamed for it and others took credit for ending it. The truth is the lack of money (caused by the Bankers) brought on the depression, and adequate money ended it. The people were never told that simple truth and in this article we will endeavor to show how these same Bankers who control our money and credit today have used their control to plunder America and place us in bondage.





PS: donq, the real story of animal farm.


sade
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#1276 donquijote

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Posted 13 October 2003 - 10:35 PM

<The intent of those pastings have some merit but like the green dollar alternative it is only small time stuff. With respect for Curitiba it is a smalltime operation and Brazil hasn't turned around
because of it.>

Howdy Bader
True, but it hasn't come around because is has *not* applied it to other cities. Perhaps the other cities are under the control of hungry lions who refuse to be tamed, which leads to the question:

Do we want to get rid of the lion or just tame him?

True, getting rid of him is tempting but that's more risky and we can always work down the line toward constructing the water wells. The thing is, hesitating amounts to perpetuating the lion at its worst!

Curitiba has indeed done some good taming of the lion and I'm sure much more can be accomplished if it were to happening in many cities at the same time. All of the sudden the ball would be on the lion's courtyard. Or perhaps once he sees himself cornered he would get tamed once and for all...;)

Change comes from the cities
JAIME LERNER

In the course of 25 years working as a professional in Curitiba, Brazil, and other cities, I have become convinced that it is essential to consider the city as an agent of change. Local action can have a revolutionary effect at a regional, national and global level, regardless of the city's size.

The potential of local-level action is self-evident. Consider, for instance, the link that exists between local action and external debt. Brazil's debt inhibits the country's development; this is true for many other countries as well. However, if each city were to act against wastefulness, some of the energy-generating resources currently purchased from abroad would no longer be needed.

Similarly, the survival of the Earth is inextricably linked to the policies of our cities, which is where the majority of our ecological problems now originate. Our planet would benefit greatly if every city, large or small, were to adopt environmentally friendly policies. Curitiba's example is persuasive. More than five years ago its inhabitants began separating organic from non-organic waste, both at home and in the office, so that the former could be re-used or recycled. Re-using old paper now saves some 1,200 trees from felling every day.

(snip)

Joint responsibility

Planners can encourage the city's inhabitants by giving them joint responsibility for solving its problems, from the most simple environmental issues - such as those concerned with waste - to the most complex.

Authorities must not fall into the 'tragedy syndrome', where problems seem insurmountable and where the inhabitants become complacent, believing their isolated actions to be insignificant. If responsible action is encouraged now, the community will respond positively to our appeals in future. Above all, if the inhabitants feel respected, they will respect the environmental issues presented to them.

I hold great store in the 'domino effect', believing that the example of one city - good or bad - can influence the rest. Countries can be changed by their cities and I emphatically believe in an optimistic vision of both the city and humanity. If the city becomes environmentally friendly, the country will follow suit and future generations will inherit a world in which development is sustainable.

http://www.ourplanet.../81/lerner.html

<Any large development requires money, but everyone is thinking of doing things as if no money is involved. The existing system doesn't allow the possibility of twenty hours on full pay, but they
want to have it anyway without changing the money system.
Making business people scapegoats is nonsense and ignorance.
You asked what my favourite type of coop is. I don't have one. >

OK, what's your Utopia like?
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#1277 donquijote

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Posted 13 October 2003 - 10:59 PM

<Hi donq , bader and people who are reading this post. this link http://truth.5u.com/custom2.html will tell you what has really happened in our current turbulent times. it seem endless...pray to live well.

excerpts :

Money "Creating" Profitable

As is seen by the above, money is very cheap to make, and whomever does the "creating" of money in a nation can make a tremendous profit! That profit is part of our story, but first let us consider another unique characteristic of the thing -- money, the love of which is the "root of all evil.">

Howdy Marquis
Thanks for the interesting article. It was enlightening to see how the lions pour money into war but not into developing the jungle. Same thing as now.

Indeed money is a great problem along with power. The question is what's the solution? Bader seems to have one. Can you please, Bader, bring it forth in a few words, with examples, if needed?

I got my own for those who absolutely hate both the lion and money: the kibbutz--where's there's no lion and everything is free.
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#1278 donquijote

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Posted 13 October 2003 - 11:28 PM

<Hi donq, as far as i understood you. this is not what you meant.( i wont qoute from the comment you made as i deem unnecessary) they is no need for a fight between the lion and the monkey if peace is use to resolve matters. >

There's no need for a fight--so we hope--but for a struggle. The violent monkeys are fooled into putting up a fight which is necessary in stirring up the little animals against the intruder. The way of the peaceful monkey though is to teach the little animals that they got a lion at home...

"OK, highest honors to Jaime Lerner. However if we could rely on that type of solution, all we got to do is send these proposals to the rest of the leaders--and wait. (Chances are we'll be waiting forever.)"

<this is so pessimisstic, waiting forever... what makes you so sure that your proposal wouldnt sit in the shelves?ultimately, it's all about advocating your ideals and importantly, do it. do you think hitler can dicatate germany with him sitting in a corner? this is part of the speech given by jaime lerner who said it during the INGP meetin in 1999 for your pessimism,
'In his speech Mr Lerner gave an overview of the vision and philosophy he had 30 years ago, which gradually have come to live in Curitiba and is now being implemented in numerous other municipalities in the State of Paran?. He clearly does not agree with the doom scenario about cities with ever growing populations, traffic jams, crime, street children etc. If we predict very pessimistic views about the future, people will regard themselves as terminal patients and will not be motivated to act to avoid the tragedy. "Trends are not a destiny, they are the starting point for change". >

No, I'm like 50/50. We can change the jungle, but it won't come from the top. You send these proposals to other politicians and they will ignore you. You think they don't know these things? Or is it that the pretend not to know?

"One problem with most leaders, even the most idealists, is that as soon as they get to power, they make power alliances with all sorts of lions. I haven't seen one single one in the last 40 years in Latin America not to ally himself with Castro, or at least flirt with him. Chavez went that way and Lula is in the flirting process. Sorry, at the national lever seems to be little hope other than getting rid of *all* lions."

<on contrary, you get the most praised and look upon city in the world which is from latin america. isnt this irony or what?>

A decent life for 1.5 million people out of what, 400 million people in Latin America?

"We want the people to have confidence--in themselves. Once they belong to an economic, political entity like the coop or the city most of their business will be conducted with those entities."

<the system of the city are operated by the laws setted, rules and regulation. therefore the legal system must be fair, ,just and most importantly, for it's citizens. the reason why people are exploited is because of laws favouring businesses. naturally, they(businesses & companies) will use it to their advantages. it all depends on the legislation and the type of system it is. >

Not only the laws. They are fairly good everywhere, but their enforcement and the fact that the people believe in the system.

"Regrettably, looking to improve the conditions of the jungle doesn't pay. The lion benefits from it. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. Even Boxer could do it...;)"

<im sorry to say that you just shot yourself on your feet.>

No, I mean we know *why* the lion is reluctant, and we need honest people to bring about change. If the choice is between the Foxes and the Boxers go for the Boxers.

<PS: yes, i certainly agree with you. truth is what it matters. i know i may be a bit harsh and forgive me if i have offended. i speak frankly truthfully.>

Truth and nonviolence are the same thing. Gandhi gave it the name of 'satyagraha.'

The lion wants to portray himself as stupid--when ignoring any crisis--but in reality he does it because he's hungry. Naturally that mighty appetite puts everybody at risk--through war and ecological disaster--and ultimately will wipe him out too. *And that's the price of the Lie*. So in the final analysis he's real stupid as well as hungry...;)
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#1279 donquijote

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Posted 14 October 2003 - 02:12 AM

>>>"Don't worry be happy," said the soccer mom trying to calm the nervous little girl, "it's only war and environmental damage around us."

Then she got on the gas-guzzling SUV and took the crying girl for a picnic to the lifeless polluted lake nearby. "Hey let's turn on the radio," the mom said to the sobbing girl. And the news came on: "Another American soldier killed in Iraq," and then, "Orange Alert for America." "Don't you worry, little one," reassured the soccer mom, who quicky changed the station, and pulled out the wrapped junk food she had bought with so much love at McDonald's, and both listened to some soft music--almost relaxing, if it weren't for the strident commercials--in that quiet evening...<<<

<There are several things about this? One, the ubiquitous harbinger of bad news and two, an ill-educated (Public education by the way) populace trained to be indiscriminate consumers.>

The soccer mom really got the best attitude--for who chose to do nothing. She probably believes God will take of it, or the government, or her neighbor, or anyone as long as she doesn't have to assume any responsability. The girl meanwhile knows she's doomed...

Hey, let's be real cheerful about it: Hallelujah!!! (for the end is coming).

PS: Let's see what this teenager got to say though. I think once they shake off the pretty stories they were told in Grammar School and start investigating on their own they get the idea...

'Our lives, futures and planet are in danger! By polluting the air, illegally disposing of toxic waste and burning rainforests, we are damaging our world, and what is the world, especially America, doing? Is it doing all that it can and should? The very simple answer is no.

When I researched the United States' environmental efforts, I was stunned. I expected facts that would show an overwhelming effort to do all it can to help our planet, but I was wrong. Everything I found showed overwhelmingly that America is doing nothing even close to what it should be.

The United States should be setting the standard. Citizens may be helping to protect the environment, but in many cases the government is not.

Our problems range from toxic waste to deforestation, air pollution and many, many more. Although we continue to investigate these, little has been done. In 1995, the government severely slashed funds for the Environmental Protection Agency. The EPA is devoted to "protecting human health and safeguarding the natural environment," but its funds were used instead to build more highways (epa.gov). So the government took money from this agency to further damage the environment. They didn't stop there, though, and also withdrew funding from Population Control, a problem that becomes more serious every day. But we continue to manufacture hazardous chemicals and dispose of toxic waste in third-world countries.'

(snip)

'As an American, I am embarrassed that my country is so ignorant, selfish and hypocritical. I love the U. S., but don't we stand for equality, courage and doing what is right? I believe that when it comes to environmental control, we show little sign of any of these traits. Even more than I love my country, I love my planet, and look forward to my future here, but if we continue to sit around and wait for someone else to improve it for us, our future will be filled with serious problems that should have been prevented.

This world is ours, and it's our job to save it. So we all must take a stand to correct what could potentially be catastrophic. If everyone does something, like writing your congressperson or donating to conservation funds, we can make a difference in our future. The future is in our hands; what we do today will have a lasting impact. What are you going to do?'

http://teenink.com/P...AreWeDoing.html
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#1280 MarquisDeSade

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Posted 14 October 2003 - 05:17 AM

Hi donq, most of your replies are flawed and alluding. you arent getting straight to the point for that matter. it's either you dont understand what im saying or simply brushing it aside. this is the reason for my absence. i must say this is a really good thread. thumbs up for starting it. however, thumbs down for allusion. like the example i gave bader,and i think it would apply to you too : if a child cant do a simple mathematic equation of 2 times 4, where does the problem lies? the equation or the child?

i do agree with your proposal of the kibbutz(smaller scale of communism), and as a matter of fact, i like it too. i seriously do. the reason for my proposal of system lead by a leader is because of the different characters and capabilities of mankind. communism is too idealistic. it needs a mature individual to be able to comprehend the system. an exampple, how many of that individuals in a 20million population are capable of doing it? im not pessimistic but realistic. maybe one day, when the lion has become extinct, the small animals will not have anything to be afraid of. But, what about the other predators?

quote "the socialists are becoming democratic. why? because majority(capitalists) wins."

now, in the first place, who is in the lie or lying?


a tame lion(debater)
sade
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