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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#1401 GIJOE

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Posted 16 November 2003 - 10:50 AM

I have spoken about the future in my post to bader earlier this evening in the iraq nexux thread.

AND STILL YOU HAVE NOT ADRESSED YOUR VISION OF TOMORROW. AND THE GOALS YOU ARE TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH HERE.. ALL YOU DO IS BITCH ABOUT THE PROBLEMS..

LIKE BEAT SAYS TAKE A PROACTIVE STANCE AND DO SOMETHING SAY SOMETHING TO HELP THE SITUATIONS, NOT JUST BITCH BITCH BITCH LIKE A LITTLE GIRL......
GIVE US SOLUTIONS , IDEAS, CONCEPTS ON HOW TO MAKE THIS A BETTER WORLD. NOT A MORE BITTER WORLD..
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#1402 sweetheart

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Posted 16 November 2003 - 06:33 PM

I presume this number 1 is in respect for human rights, quality of life and stability of the rule of law.

In that case, the focus should be on making sure that there is justice, property rights and fair governance the nation over... as this is fundamental.

Russia should open its doors to immigration from all the world, much like canada. This would get russia a supply of more diversity and people who will demand cosmopolitan views and better infrastructure and government.

The laws should be designed that any peson can form a corporation in russia to trade and do business. This should be very simple to do, and very fast.. ideally 1 day on the web. The government should inspire its citizens by making it easy to be innovative in the private economy by this.

It is a known fact that tolerance of diversity (race, homosexuality and recreational drugs) is highly correlated with economic success in a region... the real secret behind silicon valley and northern california.

Unless the country turns around to develop a less resource based economy (oil, timber, etc..) it will suffer the fate of nations that are exploited only for those things... and become a place that future generations of other countries plunder for resources... and the country will remain poor. By pushing to develop a climate of open justice, and entrepreneurial social development, russia could seriously beccome the number 1.

Just i don't believe anyone honestly wants that, as with that development, it is harder to repress people and be authoritarian... so if putin is ready to steward real development, i'd be surpised... i hope he does... inside his heart, he must love the potential of the russian spirit... and love is about freedom and liberty.
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#1403 Bader

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Posted 16 November 2003 - 06:36 PM

GIJ:
Your proactive example and future claim is about Iraq then you want me to make it for the world.
Now regards Iraq you have given us a bloodbath picture.
You call that proactive, a vision, a goal?
There has been concepts and ideas right through this thread.
I got accused of being arrogant because of my contribution.
Now I am accused of being bitter - identifing the problems.
The crux of the matter is U.S. foreign policy. You defend it and
several criticise it and you dont like it. Getting personal and abusive doesnt change the arguments.

You havent given any solution to Iraq nor the world in general.
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#1404 GIJOE

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Posted 16 November 2003 - 07:20 PM

Originally posted by sweetheart
I presume this number 1 is in respect for human rights, quality of life and stability of the rule of law.

In that case, the focus should be on making sure that there is justice, property rights and fair governance the nation over... as this is fundamental.

Russia should open its doors to immigration from all the world, much like canada. This would get russia a supply of more diversity and people who will demand cosmopolitan views and better infrastructure and government.

The laws should be designed that any peson can form a corporation in russia to trade and do business. This should be very simple to do, and very fast.. ideally 1 day on the web. The government should inspire its citizens by making it easy to be innovative in the private economy by this.

It is a known fact that tolerance of diversity (race, homosexuality and recreational drugs) is highly correlated with economic success in a region... the real secret behind silicon valley and northern california.

Unless the country turns around to develop a less resource based economy (oil, timber, etc..) it will suffer the fate of nations that are exploited only for those things... and become a place that future generations of other countries plunder for resources... and the country will remain poor. By pushing to develop a climate of open justice, and entrepreneurial social development, russia could seriously beccome the number 1.

Just i don't believe anyone honestly wants that, as with that development, it is harder to repress people and be authoritarian... so if putin is ready to steward real development, i'd be surpised... i hope he does... inside his heart, he must love the potential of the russian spirit... and love is about freedom and liberty.

yes......joe
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#1405 GIJOE

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Posted 16 November 2003 - 07:24 PM

Why can bader not focus on the question put to him?

What is your answer to the current problems in Iraq, and the problems of international terrorism?

Do not give us a tirade of complaints as to the reason s for the situations, give us concrete way to solve these problems.
Ways that are tenable and sane, and elastic, and acceptable to the powers that be.....
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#1406 donquijote

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Posted 16 November 2003 - 08:42 PM

The Lion roars so the little animals are intimidated not to challenge his almighty rule...

This morning I was almost apprehended for passing out flyers in a low key fashion. I was lucky I caught a bus right on time. There's fear, fear, fear everywhere, and even satire--the weapon of the weak against the powerful--is being used against the little animals risking to protest. The Lion shows his teeth and paws and roars in an unmistakable way...;)

more at...

http://engforum.prav...?threadid=43033

'Today, while excessive attention is lavished on the City of Miami-s preparation for The FTAA meetings - a city ordinance restricting free expression, courthouse closures, relocating ships to other ports, suspending daily activities in downtown and cordoning off the area south of Flagler Street - the facts suggest that this climate of fear is intended to incite hysteria and divide the people of Miami. ?This comes as no surprise to those who see the Nation-state as an occupying force that thrives on turning its subjects against one another,
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#1407 donquijote

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Posted 16 November 2003 - 08:53 PM

<(I repeat what lion-Donq allows me so I can drink at his bar,
wo is me I am exposed)>

Have you realized, Bader, how similar are the arguments of our two main opponents? One defends the Lion, and the other claims to fight it, but proposes that another should replace it...

We, however, know where the real problem is: the problem lies with the Lion. No Lion No Problem!
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#1408 donquijote

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Posted 16 November 2003 - 09:05 PM

<It is like a hydra headed beast.

it matter s not what name you go by, the distortions and theory's are all the work of and overly educated,bitter, and
envious, loser.

When the Lion roars, the tiny animals shake and shivver,
as they realize they are on the menu tonight.

whoever you are, you cannot stop tomorrow, and tomorrow is a place that you do not want to see exist. but like the tide of the oceans and the rising sun, it will happen....>

All I ask is NOT to go to Heaven, where the Lions claim to go. Send me to Hell if you want, but I don't want no lion. Hey wait a minute, this is Hell already. Nevermind...;)

PS: One day in a not-so-distant future even children will know there's a hungry, stupid lion, and that he roars and intimidates--and even eat if need be--those peaceful monkeys who dare to challenge him in order to have a better and safe world for our children. At that point he'll be fully exposed and totally incapable of doing any more harm...;)
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#1409 donquijote

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Posted 16 November 2003 - 09:14 PM

<I have spoken about the future in my post to bader earlier this evening in the iraq nexux thread.

AND STILL YOU HAVE NOT ADRESSED YOUR VISION OF TOMORROW. AND THE GOALS YOU ARE TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH HERE.. ALL YOU DO IS BITCH ABOUT THE PROBLEMS..

LIKE BEAT SAYS TAKE A PROACTIVE STANCE AND DO SOMETHING SAY SOMETHING TO HELP THE SITUATIONS, NOT JUST BITCH BITCH BITCH LIKE A LITTLE GIRL......
GIVE US SOLUTIONS , IDEAS, CONCEPTS ON HOW TO MAKE THIS A BETTER WORLD. NOT A MORE BITTER WORLD.. >

Man, what are you drinking? Don't tell me is Vodka because it would show in a smarter comment. What future we have in mind? That's the first post of this thread...;)

A ROAD TO FREEDOM (UNLIKE RUSSIA'S)

Why not build a new system? That offers PROSPERITY, SOCIAL JUSTICE and FREEDOM; that discards the defects of both Communism and Capitalism; and that places the system at the service of the human being, and not the other way around. Why not HUMANISM?

Naturally, education and health care should be the maximum priorities; they should be free -or affordable, in the case of higher education- and accessible to all. Education should emphasize the learning of English -or Esperanto, if we all ever agree on it- and literacy... in computers. Likewise, culture and sports should receive special attention (for example, adopting the affordable child-care centers; in general, we would have much to learn from the Scandinavian model). A MIXED MODEL, that includes competition and cooperation, would create a healthy competition, and it would allow to satisfy the material and human needs of all. (In this way, the cooperative enterprises would be forced to become more efficient, while capitalist enterprises would be forced to become more humane; we would have much to learn from the Israeli kibbutz [non-profit cooperatives]; and from the industrial cooperatives of Mondragon, in the Basque Country [a "workers capitalism"].) We should seek full employment (for instance, by creating jobs in the construction of the transportation infrastructure; but, if unemployment persists, the work time could be reduced). Public transportation should be A1. (The city of Curitiba, in Brazil, offers us a functional model of transportation; bicycle lanes should be implemented along all major streets.) The homeless, who now occupy our better parks, should be incorporated into light but necessary duties, like picking up litter, in exchange for a decent wage; there should be no homeless. (Again, Curitiba is a model on this.) Junk food should have a warning label (just like cigarettes), particularly the one destined to children, and also be taxed to subsidize healthy alternatives. Housing should be available at popular prices. (Prefabricated multifamily units can help accomplish this; the movement of "new urbanism" can provide them with a sense of community and quality of life, say by having abundant green areas.) Public corruption should be treated as "public enemy No.1." TV and radio should be independent of Big Business and the State. (This is due to two reasons: culturally, because the ratings make bad programs become "good"... for business; and, politically, because whoever has power over the media... will be in power; however, people should be able to watch anything on video and cable; the BBC offers us and example of an independent media.) The "Free Press" should be democratized, so that, among other things, the censorship of the opinions of the public is eradicated. Politics should become cheaper to avoid its control by powerful groups (for example, offering free time on TV to the candidates; we would have much to learn from the political model of Switzerland [in particular, its political decentralization and its system of referendums]). Nevertheless, we should never follow neither anything nor anyone -including myself- blindly. And, of course, everything can be improved. Something to think about: While the prohibition of drugs has been largely ineffective, different studies show us alternative methods to face that problem -and the crime associated with them... The final form of this system would be determined by the acceptance of the people themselves: Each and everyone of these proposals should be submitted to referendum. And, the basis of everything else: We should learn to live, not FROM, but WITH Nature.

A COMMENT FROM A FRIEND:

The system you describe sounds awfully good. I'd say no country is on the road you suggest, but it might be a good thing for world leaders to read your article, since it could give them some goals. What a wonder it'd be, for example, if George Bush announced some actual long-term goals for the country, instead of reacting to events in a knee-jerk fashion. I'm picking on George, but much the same can be said of most any world leader I know of.

http://webspawner.co...ers/donquijote1
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#1410 donquijote

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Posted 16 November 2003 - 09:22 PM

<Why can bader not focus on the question put to him?

What is your answer to the current problems in Iraq, and the problems of international terrorism?

Do not give us a tirade of complaints as to the reason s for the situations, give us concrete way to solve these problems.
Ways that are tenable and sane, and elastic, and acceptable to the powers that be.....>

Part I

Here's one strategy...

-Seek world justice* (see Epicurus' opinion at the end).

-Play down religion and nationalism (say the politicians abstaining from mixing politics and religion).

-Save oil.

-Educate, educate, educate.

I doubt there would be much terrorism left after these steps are
taken.

Part II

I'm at the same time pessimistic and optimist...

The pessimism is that destruction may happen any time...

The optimism is that a solution is really around the corner and it may
come as either the enlightenment of our leaders (not all must be
stupid, or sold out, are they?) or as a campaign of nonviolence.

Say, if we had an enlightened leader, he may think like this...

(Source: World Press Review, letters)

Yes, we need to fight a war, but no, the enemy is not Iraq... The
enemy is oil with 65+ percent of the known oil reserves in the
politically unstable, "Death to America"-chanting Middel East. Imagine
the advances the United States could make to world stability and
developing domestic employment opportunities if it spent the $79+
billion Congress recently approved for Bush's Iraq war on alternative
energy subsidies and investment. Might this be a better way to fight
terrorism, support our troops, and regain world favor?

Jay Lustgarten
San Anselmo, California

*Epicurus of Samos, the Greek "philosopher of the garden" who lived
341-270 BC, was an ancient sage who left us an enduring message of
optimism.

Epicurus recognizes the virtue of justice. Like the other virtues,
justice is not considered by Epicureans to be an "absolute good," but
rather an obligatory means for securing happiness. The nature of this
obligation is contractual; justice is grounded upon a promise not to
initiate harm against one's peers, nor to permit such wrongdoing to go
unpunished. Throughout history, it has proved mutually advantageous
for individuals to band together into societies implicitly or
explicitly embracing this kind of pact, because, according to
Epicurus, "the greatest fruit of justice is peace of mind." When we
live under conditions of assured protection, we can derive solace from
the expectation that we will not fall prey to criminal acts, or in the
unlikely event that we do, that there will at least be avenues of
recourse available to us. On the other hand, *those who try to cheat
the social covenant by committing crimes are subject to perpetual
anxieties that accompany the prospects of looming retaliation*.

more...

http://webspawner.co...rs/donquijote17
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#1411 donquijote

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Posted 16 November 2003 - 09:31 PM

<I presume this number 1 is in respect for human rights, quality of life and stability of the rule of law.

In that case, the focus should be on making sure that there is justice, property rights and fair governance the nation over... as this is fundamental.>

Welcome Sweetheart
This requisities may be present even in the constitution of Haiti or Zimbabwe. They are worthy goals but they may be practiced in the absence in real life.

Russia however could afford something dramatically better as I proposed in the original posting. It has the most educated people, scientists, writers, etc.--and not much to lose...;) The countries I cite are already #1 in most statistics of quality of life, and even that can be improved.

What you cite though of Russia welcoming people from all over the world--after such an event--is a great idea.:cool:
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#1412 GIJOE

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Posted 16 November 2003 - 11:30 PM

For the first time ever I have read donqs post and found them to be rightious, and other then self serving.

Most of the things you have written tonight, are great idea s for a perfect world. The speak of a way to get closer to a perfect world, and I find virtue in most of the things donq has said tonight.

The main stumbling block to this perfect world, is one of mankinds oldest inherant flaws, GREED.
Had human beings not been born with the greed gene, most of the ideas you have spoken of would have already been in place.

GREED AND SLOTH ARE THE WALLS THAT STOP THIS PERFECT WORLD FROM COMING INTO BEING........ I PERSONALLY HAVE TENDENCY'S THAT ARE NOT TO FAR AWAY FROM THE GREED THING.

BECAUSE I AM A HUMAN BEING.. TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION ALL OF OUR EARTHLY FAULTS AND YOUR THEORY NO MATTER HOW WONDERFUL IT WOULD BE IF IT COULD WORK, IT IS NOT FEASABLE SADLY.......... MARX 'S FOLLOWERS FOUND THIS OUT AFTER THE DESTRUCTION AND DEATHS OF MILLIONS OF SOULS...


REALITY SAYS WE ACCEPT OUR CONDITION AND TRY TO IMPROVE IT TAKEING INTO CONSIDERATION THE HUMAN CONDITION.. THIS WOULD BE A MORE REAL APPROACH TO PERFECT WORLD..... PAX g i joe
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#1413 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 17 November 2003 - 12:56 AM

Donq & CO. remind my grandmother
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#1414 GIJOE

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Posted 17 November 2003 - 01:25 AM

Correcting the world starts with, correcting ones self.......
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#1415 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 17 November 2003 - 02:04 AM

GIJOE;
/Correcting the world starts with, correcting ones self.......//

We do not see things as they are, we see things as we are .(Talmudic saying)
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#1416 GIJOE

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Posted 17 November 2003 - 04:11 AM

When we feel that our take on things, is the only take, it is then that we begin to lose touch with way things really are.

On this thread I have persisted until the tree of truth has been shaken to it's very roots.

wether or not you aggree with me and a given issue, if any issue at all, you know my true feelings, and basic beliefs.

It has been thru dialog,that contact has been made,even between those of distant philosphy's.


The Beat says he is not a great sage.

Others here flex their intellect muscles until they ripple.

The Talmud also says,

Fill a jar with coins, shake it, and it makes no sound.
Fill the same jar with only two coins and listen to it rattle.

Russia is already #1--in the production of oil. is this not a fact.
Russia is either the worlds leading producer of oil or has the greatest natural oil reserves and potential for exploration, then any country on earth.
Thus, in one sense Russia is already #1

In order for Russia to be #1 country on earth she would have to become number one in the following area's too


#1--FREEDOM OF THE PEOPLE TO CHOOSE THEIR OWN ELECTED LEADERS. this appears to have also become a reality.

#2--Attain the highest level of existance for it's people. it still has a long way to go on this one, but they are gaining.

#3--Provide the highest level of security for it's citizins. another area where Russia has excelled, the chechen problem is excaserbated by the Islamic Jihad worldwide terror network.

So Russia is not so far away from becoming number one.

Oh I forgot #4--The leading military power on the planet.
Until Russia completes number two number 4 will be and unattainable position.

By commerce and growth of it's natural resources, this would allow Russia to invest in all other areas of it existance, this would then raise Russia to the pinnacle of world power, should the U.S. somehow self destruct from within or without.....
something i pray does not happen in my grandchildrens lifetime..
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#1417 Bader

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Posted 17 November 2003 - 08:11 AM

Howdy GIJ:

You spoke about the future: things are going to change over the next few weeks, (that is very quick) US going to get the job (?)
finished ( like the war ended back in early May) and the tribes are going to settle it (settle what?).

In exchange for that, which has more questions than information, you expect me to give you my vision of tomorrow.
What and whoes tomorrow?

Then later you move the goalposts and come on with what is my answer to current problems in Iraq and then on top of that my
answer for the problem of international terrorism.

Then bless your cotton socks you lay conditions:
give solutions to these problems but not allowed to identify-describe them because that is bitching etc, and since that isnt rich enough you go futher:
tenable, sane and elastic and then
acceptable to the powers that be (who ever they are, seemingly we arent allowed to identify them as well)

Now all this somehow I am obliged to you for the we bit of vague
notion you have about how in a few weeks Iraq problems will be solved.

Am I dancing past the questions? Or am I playing pin the tail on the donkey and you are going to move the donkey around.

And you claim you have persisted until the tree of truth has been
shaken to its very roots.

I only look a fool GI.
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#1418 GIJOE

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Posted 17 November 2003 - 08:29 AM

The u s army is in the process of cleaning up a filthy situation in Iraq, and they are finally doing it the only way the el tikriti's understand. house to house room to room, and the stench of the remnants of the clique is being flushed out.
I did say the war would be taking a different more urban distructive fashion weeks ago, did i not?
This is the only thing the Baathist's understand, and iron fist.
and like i said in prior posts, The Red army in ww2, gave us the finest example of how to erase and enemy, the only difference is, to them every German that moved was their enemy.
This not the case in Iraq. We have no intention of rolling over the masses like zukovs tanks did in 1945, on their way to the reichstag building.

JOE
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#1419 Bader

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Posted 17 November 2003 - 09:41 AM

The Red Army was rolling back and out of their country an invader.
In Iraq the Iraqis are the defenders, the U.S. Coalition are the uninvited invaders.
There were several excuses Bush used to invade, he went form one to another trying to justify it.
GI, You have settled on the latter one, removing a bad govt and dictator which was the only one no one disputed because it was the only one that was true.
Hitler thought he was getting rid of bad dictatorial govt in the Soviet Union as well.
Wars of liberation are more about liberating the resources than the people.
There are many other "bad" countries, who next?
By the way the house to house stuff has been going on for months, rather like Viet Nam they shoot anything loose, like
nervous and terrified people who dont move like they would like them to, as they move in. In otherwords killing innocent people
in cold blood in their own homes. If there is much bravado
associated with this why is moral so low?

Why dont you start a seperate thread, nothing about Iraq applies to Russia. I should imagine there would be a lot of
interaction. News tends to be vague and really doesnt tell one
much about the real people and culture there and as you are aware the tribal factor.
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#1420 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 17 November 2003 - 11:38 AM

Donq//Yes, we need to fight a war, but no, the enemy is not Iraq... The enemy is oil with 65+ percent of the known oil reserves in the politically unstable, "Death to America"-chanting Middel East.//
Dong you are enormous optimist;
I don
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