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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#1501 donquijote

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Posted 29 November 2003 - 06:23 PM

<Although Donq obsession with theory of cooperatives>

Howdy Woj
I like coops but I like even more the fact that we can provide OPTIONS. Precisely the thing I like most about Switzerland is the fact that people are able to "vote with their feet" among communes and cantons, looking perhaps for lower/higher taxation, but which can be expanded into capitalist/noncapitalist options, like the coops.

It beats hands down either competition (capitalism) or cooperation (Marxism) imposed from above.

PS: The story was quite good and it seems to indicate that we should not be obsessed with the economic indicators but with the welfare of the people.
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#1502 Guest__*

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Posted 29 November 2003 - 06:52 PM

Many of these ideas are trully great. A social harmony, a mixture of many systems is what Russia needs. Now WE MUST DO IT. Think of ways it can be done! How can we put it into play? And no revolutions, please. Let's start talking about how we can implicate it, or how we can let Russians know about these ideas.
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#1503 donquijote

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Posted 29 November 2003 - 07:00 PM

Who Will Bell the Lion?

http://engforum.prav...?threadid=45424
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#1504 donquijote

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Posted 29 November 2003 - 07:10 PM

<Many of these ideas are trully great. A social harmony, a mixture of many systems is what Russia needs. Now WE MUST DO IT. Think of ways it can be done! How can we put it into play? And no revolutions, please. Let's start talking about how we can implicate it, or how we can let Russians know about these ideas.>

Thanks and welcome to the debate. I know the word may sound traumatic--after all you only had to endure it for more than 70 years;)--but evolution wouldn't work either, since the system is meant to perpetuate itself by the law of the jungle, in which those at the upper end of the food chain rule...

I have a better idea though, since we already have a "Velvet Revolution," we may stick some nice adjective in front of it to signal that we mean peace and goodness. I have my own, which works for the Latin American context as you may see...;)

http://webspawner.co...rs/donquijote40
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#1505 Bader

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Posted 29 November 2003 - 08:37 PM

A major change in society can only proceed with the stability to
succeed and continue to a successful level if it is at the pace the
public can appreciate and continue to be/feel a part of change so
that they effectively "own'' it.
So you can only move as fast as people can re-educate and
understand to move outside the square of the social conditioning
that has the majority trapped.
For the medium term a substantial change in the education system is necessary so the next generation dont have to unlearn the current legal,mental, political disciplines etc that have people
conditioned and trapped.
In the immediate term govt hopefully will assist by funding key
factors that will allow change, eg coops and more public input
into local authorities to assist the turn around from top down to bottem up authority.
It is essential that simple and local "'instruments" are created so
people can see and experience the hands on and confidence
that they can run their own society and importantly appreciate
the principles in the "instruments" so they know what are the
principles that do work and continue to use them as building blocks. People then spot very easily the fake and slight of hand
once they are educated based on experience and ownership.
Two types of instruments I would look at first is replace party politics which only leeds to money ruling, with reps representing the locals (not parties) as servants so they are subject to pressure from their own people not where they are going to get their campaign funds from at the next election. This would include the Swiss fererenda system. Similarly the bureaucrat must
become accountable to the locals who pay his salary as well.
The other is the coop which DONQ champions because its a classic model that in essence is what this is all about and a great
educational tool - that educates and confirms peoples ability to
own and run their own affairs better than all the systems currently corrupting humanity and the planet.
One word of warning. This is democracy and a lot of people are not prepared to take the individual responsibility that it requires for it to be effective, resistent to social desease; so the insecure, the socialists (the more extreme ones who dont recognise the individual only the state) and libertarians ( in the other extreme who think every man is an island) will fight it.
Not to mention the Lion/s whos power actually primarily comes
unwittingly from the little animals.
((When Gulliver wakes up enough (confidence and self belief)
he can stand up inspite of the twines anytime. The twines are the visual tools (power of suggestion) that enforces the more powerful twines (conditioning) in his mind.))
Georgian Lions showed they have reverse gear just like every other creature.
A point to remember is if you remove big volumns of bad in one hit
is there big volumns of good to displace it, as there is no such thing as vacuums in social environments like politics. Something will fill the space if the good is less than the bad removed- bit off what you can chew. Create models that neighbouring regions will
want to emulate. These models will bring real competition, so that people can vote with their feet and money and support the new starving the old- thats brutal, the blood of systems will be spilt but no blood of people in the streets.
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#1506 Vital1

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Posted 29 November 2003 - 09:50 PM

Hello all, i just stumbled onto this discussion by accident and have not the time to read all 105 posts so forgive me if i repeat someone's opinions in my post. Anyway, here goes.

What would it take for russia to be number #1?

1. An elimination of poverty.
- This can only be done through a stable and steady increase in the GDP of the country, which would directly increase household wealth, taxes paid, etc etc. Some of you have said that foreign investment is the key to this. I prefer to offer a different opinion; please see #3. There need not be foreign investment to save Russia. Russia has sufficient natural resources to save itself, but these need to be in the hands of the people, the hands of the majority, from whom they were stolen by the few, the corrupt, and they need to be seized back before any other steps are taken. Putin is leading into a similar direction because he understands the importance of this.

2. An end to organized crime.
- How can we end crime without a stable government? It is impossible. How can a government be stable when the country is in a state of utter poverty? It is impossible. Therefore, to eliminate organized crime, poverty first has to be eliminated. Only when poverty is eliminated, can organized crime be crushed, not beforehand.

When it is more profitable for ordinary teens to go into the business of crime rather than to go to school and get a degree, something is definitely wrong!

3. The seizure of the means of production back into the hands of the government. Especially mining and natural resource facilities like those of oil, coal, etc. Without some sort of income, it is extremely difficult for the government to operate effectively.

4. The slow introduction of Marxism into the political and economic system. Why you ask? Hasn't communism failed once, isnt that enough? The answer is, no. Communism never failed, and I have done extensive reading on the subject of "Was the Soviet economy doomed to bankrupcy in 1990?" and the answer is "No, it was not." The reforms that were instituted by Mikhail Gorbachev were instituted incorrectly, and his inability to react to the crisis that resulted from his reforms made things even worse. B. Yeltsin took advantage of this and now his children won't have to work for at least 5 generations to come. Gorbachev opened the door to capitalism too fast, and caused the corruption of a socialism system. It flooded all ranks of government and economics like a cancer which could not be stopped. That door now needs to be shut because the capitalism of Russia is now in the worst state, a country where people:
"know the price of everything, and the value of nothing" -- Arthur Okun.

Communism has worked wonders for russia and the former republics, this disease of capitalism, this cancer, has brought only ruin to my people, and needs to be eliminated before it destroys the country altogether.
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#1507 GIJOE

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Posted 29 November 2003 - 09:58 PM

Your first post, hehehe, is so funny, you did not even have the balls to use your real forum name........
look what communism did for Russia.
man do you need shock treatment badly.....
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#1508 donquijote

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Posted 29 November 2003 - 10:21 PM

<A major change in society can only proceed with the stability to
succeed and continue to a successful level if it is at the pace the
public can appreciate and continue to be/feel a part of change so
that they effectively "own'' it.
So you can only move as fast as people can re-educate and
understand to move outside the square of the social conditioning
that has the majority trapped.
For the medium term a substantial change in the education system is necessary so the next generation dont have to unlearn the current legal,mental, political disciplines etc that have people
conditioned and trapped.
In the immediate term govt hopefully will assist by funding key
factors that will allow change, eg coops and more public input
into local authorities to assist the turn around from top down to bottem up authority.
It is essential that simple and local "'instruments" are created so
people can see and experience the hands on and confidence
that they can run their own society and importantly appreciate
the principles in the "instruments" so they know what are the
principles that do work and continue to use them as building blocks. >

Bader, *congratulations*, you have just resumed the right way to do it. I may add that at that point the lion will be considered *tamed* and no violent monkey would need to address any issue by violent means. We will be coming out of the jungle indeed!:)
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#1509 Vital1

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Posted 29 November 2003 - 10:24 PM

Originally posted by GIJOE
Your first post, hehehe, is so funny, you did not even have the balls to use your real forum name........
look what communism did for Russia.
man do you need shock treatment badly.....



What do you mean real forum name? If by "real forum name" you mean my given name, then i can gladly give it to you if you need it. I can gladly "have the balls" to give it to you.

Look at what communism did to russia? What did communism do to Russia? If you do not accurately understand the events that have happened in the early 90's, then please dont post things like this. The state Russia is in at the moment is not due to the failure of Communism, but rather, the failure of capitalism. Please, read about Russia in the early 90's and then talk to me about what happened back then.

Shock treatment badly? What is this supposed to mean? Is this the freedom of speech that you Americans so boldly protect? But when someone expresses their opinions, and you happen to dislike them, you say things like this. You are a perfect example of an uneducated, arrogant, American. But i did not post here to trade insults with the likes of you, and neither did i insult you before you insulted me. If you have a differing opinion then please state it in an educated manner with evidence. Don't post a reply like the one you just did. Thank you.

Vitaly "have the balls" Polyakov
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#1510 donquijote

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Posted 29 November 2003 - 10:37 PM

Welcome Vital! A few comments...

<There need not be foreign investment to save Russia.>

Good, no need at all! Actually that may be the only way do it, without owing favors--and money...;)

< Russia has sufficient natural resources to save itself, but these need to be in the hands of the people, the hands of the majority, from whom they were stolen by the few, the corrupt, and they need to be seized back before any other steps are taken. Putin is leading into a similar direction because he understands the importance of this.>

Will one man be able save the world? I rather think is the owning of politics that Bader spoke about. If he's too good, he may be in danger; if he's too bad, well, too bad...;)

<2. An end to organized crime.
- How can we end crime without a stable government? It is impossible. How can a government be stable when the country is in a state of utter poverty? It is impossible. Therefore, to eliminate organized crime, poverty first has to be eliminated. Only when poverty is eliminated, can organized crime be crushed, not beforehand.>

And stupid regulations must go too. A liberal society like Holland has far less problems with two of the scourges of humanity--drugs and prostitution--than say Colombia, where the jungle prevails.

<When it is more profitable for ordinary teens to go into the business of crime rather than to go to school and get a degree, something is definitely wrong!>

Well, that's the way they go in America too...:confused:

<3. The seizure of the means of production back into the hands of the government. Especially mining and natural resource facilities like those of oil, coal, etc. Without some sort of income, it is extremely difficult for the government to operate effectively.>

Disagree. The means of production should be in the hands of the people, which is to say the coops should be the main instrument of economic socialization. What you propose may create just another predator.

<Communism has worked wonders for russia and the former republics, this disease of capitalism, this cancer, has brought only ruin to my people, and needs to be eliminated before it destroys the country altogether. >

Right diagnosis, wrong treatment...:confused:
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#1511 Vital1

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Posted 29 November 2003 - 10:53 PM

Herein lies a difference of opinions don.

You believe capitalism will heal itself after some time and some careful planning.

I disagree.

Capitalism is not for the Russian people. We have been accustomed to a more "centralized" system of government, for lack of a better description. This system was not bound to failure, but because the reforms were instituted in an incorrect way, failure was not only imminent but the only possible outcome. Furthermore, capitalism should not have been introduced into socialism at the scale that it was, it should have been understood that the flooding of corruption and inflation would not be stopped, if it would. And so it happened.

A new and healthy beginning after a failed experiment is the best way out of this situation, at least that's my opinion. But what i have seen in the past 10 years, only proves my point in my eyes. Capitalism cannot, and will not work in Russia, at least not for a very long time. At the rate of 3 deaths to 1 birth, and the flocks of people leaving my country in search of better lives abroad, we may not have the luxury of time. Therefore, my presumptions are not only valid, but accurate. You just have an alternate opinion about them.
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#1512 Bader

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Posted 29 November 2003 - 11:01 PM

Howdy DonQ:
Thanks.
My post on the other thread re joelskousen (Danish name?)
was supposed to be on this thread.

Hello Vital1:

"all 105 posts"?? Are you a slow writer, its now over three hundred? Or is the Eurasian land mass so big you are in another time zone.

Thanks for not going down the boring military might track.

I agree with you no nation needs foreign investment anymore than foreign ownership.
I disagree with "the hands of the majority" as these are virtual
projections of the media and no one realy knows who they are,
usually the result of manipulation and vested interest. Besides
the majority have no right to dictate to the minority. I am for democracy were people rule not just some of them.

There is a link between poverty and crime. Organised crime
has not got anything to do with the poor, they are generations of rich people/families carrying on family tradition.

Who should own natural resourses? I like that issue, it usually gets skirted. If one plants a forest on maturity they are entitled to the product. But oil and gas etc. In my book the democratic
principle should be that the people own it. They should decide how its is utilised and managed for the benfit of the existing and future generations being the temporary caretakers.
The State owns the granted right by the people to serve and protect and stay accountable, not own the resouses the chief of which is the people- in my book.

You are not the first Vital to argue that the USSR wasnt failed by communism, previously it was argued that it was corrupted or similar and not given a proper go, so why change to capitalisms free-market if communism had done wonders for your people?
I am not convinced the majority had any say in either major change in 1917 or 1989-90.

Don't mind the pop-up posts that try to intimidate, who knows maybe its a virus.
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#1513 Vital1

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Posted 29 November 2003 - 11:30 PM

" 'all 105 posts'?? Are you a slow writer, its now over three hundred? Or is the Eurasian land mass so big you are in another time zone."

i made a mistake of putting down "105 posts" when i should have wrote 105 pages of posts. I apologize.

"I disagree with "the hands of the majority" as these are virtual
projections of the media and no one realy knows who they are,
usually the result of manipulation and vested interest. Besides
the majority have no right to dictate to the minority. I am for democracy were people rule not just some of them."

I am wondering, are you from the United States? If so, then can you please tell me who rules in the Unites States? The majority or the minority? Has there ever been a jewish president in office? If so, why not? how about a female or a black american?
The war in Iraq, is that not manipulation by the media? All these factors you mention, I agree with you;they are externalities, but they are present in both economic systems and are items of a political sphere, out of which i would prefer to stay out of for the remainder of this discussion, or at least attempt to.

"There is a link between poverty and crime. Organised crime
has not got anything to do with the poor, they are generations of rich people/families carrying on family tradition."

Organized crime developed out of people who were left with nothing after the system crumbled. Who do you think heads the crime syndicates? Politicians who used to be members of the communist party are at the wheel, who had no where to go after the system collapsed, who tried to grab a piece of the pie for themselves as they saw everything they built crumble before their eyes; as well as prominent capitalist "entrepeneurs".
Generations of rich people were non existent in Russia, as you well likely know, furthermore, these are not italian mafia. There is no sense of family there. Simply guys being hired and paid to do their jobs, whatever those may be.

"Who should own natural resourses? I like that issue, it usually gets skirted. If one plants a forest on maturity they are entitled to the product."

But where did he get the seed to plant that tree? From nature? Then he should not be given the right to own that tree, because he wouldnt be able to plant it without the seed, and the question becomes, how did he obtain the seed? ;) Did he steal it? Did everyone agree to give it to him to plant a tree, etc.

"You are not the first Vital to argue that the USSR wasnt failed by communism, previously it was argued that it was corrupted or similar and not given a proper go, so why change to capitalisms free-market if communism had done wonders for your people?
I am not convinced the majority had any say in either major change in 1917 or 1989-90."

Why change? Dont misunderstand, the communist party is still very active in Russia and other republics and they were trying to stop the changes. But the general masses were tricked, and i dare to say that, by Yeltsin and others into believing that capitalism would do wonderful things for all. They believed that under capitalism gold would drop from the skies and everyone would be filthy rich.
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#1514 Vital1

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Posted 29 November 2003 - 11:35 PM

Forgot to add something. To all who read my post later on. Approximately every other paragraph, especially the ones in quotation marks, are quotes from the previous reply by Bader to my previous comments. Please do not mis-understand them to be the opinions of myself, as i argue against them in the paragraphs immidiately following them.
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#1515 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 29 November 2003 - 11:57 PM

Russia should continue and widener cooperation with other Slavic countries. These countries under present leadership of democracy and toleratioship to thieves changed in
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#1516 GIJOE

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Posted 30 November 2003 - 12:15 AM

The future of the world will not be determined by overly educated eggheads, it will be determined by logical thinking freedom loving.
people.
Here is a bit of true history, that happened between one of your former leaders, and the city of Chicago.

In the mid 1980s the mayor of Moscow came to the U S.
during his tour here, he was taken to Chicago.
He was then taken to one of the poorest neighborhoods in the south side, comprised mainly if not all by black Americans.
He was then taken into a food store, where the shelves were stocked with all kinds of foods, from soup to nuts.
He remarked, this store is only for the exclusive use of the party members, is this not correct?
No his tour guides replied, this a store for the poorest of the poor to buy their food from.
That night at a dinner in his honor, he cried in his plate, thinking of the bare shelves and endless lines that Russian people had to endure for endless decades.
This very man stood on a Tank and faced down the Communist dictator and his henchmen.
This is a true story, and it speaks volumes for what communism did to Russia and it's people for 70 horrible years.
Vital one, if you are a Russian, you know this is true.
If you are a former or still Communist. You would never have had to stand in these lines and live a life of abject poverty, compared to the west German state. the Japanease , and the Americans, the French, the English and all capitalistic nations.
You advocate going back to a brutal leadership with self appointed rulers that have monsters like,
BERIA the head of the secret police, a rapist a murderer,that was excuted in Lubyanca, by a Russian soldier.
Where is your heart, your soul, your sense of sanity and civility for your fellow man.
From your posts here it is obvious you are a shallow man with no regard for true history, and FREEDOM.
NEVER WILL RUSSIA ALLOW ITSELF TO BE RULED BY THE LIKES OF YOU AGAIN......
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#1517 Vital1

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Posted 30 November 2003 - 12:24 AM

1. This is obviously a case of american propaganda. Either the story was corrupted ordetails in it were corrupted, or you misunderstood it.

2. There is no communist dictotorship. Lenin advocated this, "the dictatorship of the proletariat" and it was done by Stalin, but power was slowly being given to the people. So there is no communist dictatorship.

3. Based on your views and opinions, you are either ignorant or plainly a child. I think the latter might be true. In order to advocate against communism or for it, one first has to have a clear understanding of it, which you obviously do not possess. So please stop replying with your childish comments to my posts until you have read sufficiently on the topic.
I on the other hand, have been educated in Socialist as well as Keynesian and Ricardian economics, those are the economists on who's theories Capitalism, and Capitalism in America and other countries is primarily based. So I believe I have read both sides of the story and have sufficient knowledge to base my opinions and knowldge upon.

once you have done some sufficient research, you can reply to me. Thank you.
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#1518 GIJOE

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Posted 30 November 2003 - 02:30 AM

Originally posted by Vital1
1. This is obviously a case of american propaganda. Either the story was corrupted ordetails in it were corrupted, or you misunderstood it.

2. There is no communist dictotorship. Lenin advocated this, "the dictatorship of the proletariat" and it was done by Stalin, but power was slowly being given to the people. So there is no communist dictatorship.

3. Based on your views and opinions, you are either ignorant or plainly a child. I think the latter might be true. In order to advocate against communism or for it, one first has to have a clear understanding of it, which you obviously do not possess. So please stop replying with your childish comments to my posts until you have read sufficiently on the topic.
I on the other hand, have been educated in Socialist as well as Keynesian and Ricardian economics, those are the economists on who's theories Capitalism, and Capitalism in America and other countries is primarily based. So I believe I have read both sides of the story and have sufficient knowledge to base my opinions and knowldge upon.

once you have done some sufficient research, you can reply to me. Thank you.


THE ONE AREA WHERE YOU ARE INCREADABLLY DEFICIENT, IS
''COMMON SENSE'' YOU HAVE HAD YOUR NOSE IN TO MANY BOOKS TO UNDERSTAND WHAT LIFE IS TRULY ALL ABOUT....
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#1519 Guest__*

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Posted 30 November 2003 - 02:43 AM

GI Joe,

just give up man, these knuckleheads have been hopelessly brainwashed.....I would just let them live in pain........
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#1520 Vital1

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Posted 30 November 2003 - 03:36 AM

I am ending this discussion with you. I see that I cannot win this discussion nor will I try, because there is obviously no sense in giving a book to someone who cant read. But before I do, I'd like to say a few things.

"YOU HAVE HAD YOUR NOSE IN TO MANY BOOKS" - GIJoe

This is probably the most intelligent post on these forums from you to date. And the most true to life. =) I have done alot of reading on these subjects. You on the other hand, seem to be at the other end of this spectrum, the opposite extreme. Someone who has no knowledge other than his own opinions to express about this topic, and if my opinions happen to disagree with yours, then voila!....I must be an "egghead." Interesting arguement, but I prefer to base my opinions on fact, rather than mere judgement.

On another note, you wrote:

"In the mid 1980s the mayor of Moscow came to the U S."
--GIJoe

What was the name of this Mayor of Moscow?

"He remarked, this store is only for the exclusive use of the party members, is this not correct?" --GIJoe

Have you personally witnessed him saying this? Or do you have a record of this conversation? Can it be otained? Or is it mere "hear-say"?

"This is a true story, and it speaks volumes for what communism did to Russia and it's people for 70 horrible years." --GIJoe

In 70 years, under Communism, the USSR rose from a crumbling Russian Empire to a world superpower that rivaled the United States. However, unlike the progress of the United States and Capitalism, the USSR achieved this goal in a third of the time frame. The United States took approximately 200 years to achieve a position of prosperity and become a world super-power, the Soviet Union did it in 70.

"If you are a former or still Communist. You would never have had to stand in these lines and live a life of abject poverty." --GIJoe

For future references and just for your own knowledge, I need you to understand, that almost the whole population of the Soviet Union was in the Communist party of the Soviet Union.
We were all equal in terms of standing in line for bread and butter. But thats just a cost compensation for being able to afford that bread and butter.
In a capitalist system, the lines are eliminated because the prices are increased, thereby, not allowing some people to afford certain items, those that can afford it, will still buy. In the Soviet Union, almost all could afford, thereby creating a strong demand for certain products, and sometimes insufficient supply. This inefficiency by no means states the failure of Socialism, it is simply an inefficiency, and capitalism has those, whether you want to believe it or not.
One example is the equal defence under the law. Does the rich man have the same defence under the law as does a poor man in a capitalist state? You might quickly answer yes, but the answer is you almost entirely no, he does not. Why you ask? Because a rich man, like OJ simpson for example, can afford to hire the best defence defence attorney in the country and have a better chance of getting away with crimes than would a person with no such funds. Some of you feed your dogs better than others can afford to feed their children, for Christ's sake!

"You advocate going back to a brutal leadership with self appointed rulers that have monsters like,
BERIA the head of the secret police, a rapist a murderer,that was excuted in Lubyanca, by a Russian soldier."
--GIJoe

I agree with you here, Beria was a brutal man, he did horrible things sometimes. But that is not the result of an economic system, and neither is he a by-product of socialism. Do not presume to understand that the communist system produces men like him left and right. Because I can assure you capitalism has produced some evil men, Hitler being one of them. A direct by product of the failure and rebirth of capitalism. Crazy people are crazy no matter what system they live under, there are "crazies" on both sides of the fence. You, are also a good example of this, but I am not judging the capitalist mode of production based on you, am I?

"Where is your heart, your soul, your sense of sanity and civility for your fellow man.
From your posts here it is obvious you are a shallow man with no regard for true history, and FREEDOM"

If you are talking about the civility of bombing Iraq back to the stone-age just because Saddam made a contract with Russia, France and China for 500 million barrels of oil, under the guise of weapons of mass destruction, then I should ask you the same question. Where is the civility in that? By the way, where are those weapons that Bush and Blair spoke so passionately about, have they been found yet?

In capitalism, freedom is an illusion, a hologram created by the rich to keep the poor happy and submisive.
I am not sure but I believe Locke said this: "The middle class believes that they have certain rights and freedoms, and like to believe that everyone has them, but the lower and upper class understand this to be false"...Such is the case here.

Please do not preach to me about the horrors of Communism, at least not until you have done some research on the topic. And for God's sake, open your eyes boy!
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