Jump to content

Theme© by Fisana
 

Photo

What would it take for Russia to be #1?


  • Please log in to reply
7545 replies to this topic

#1541 Vital1

Vital1

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 16 posts

Posted 01 December 2003 - 01:43 AM

Joe, it is nice that you have finally changed your tone from an arrogant and condescending way to a normal discussion. It is appreciated. However, I still cant help but disagree with some of the things you have said on this forum, while at the same time agreeing with others, but im sure it wasnt in the way you meant it to sound. Here are a few:

"I do find it amazing, that you actually think, Russians will ever give up their new found freedoms, for revisionist ideals of the past."
--GIJoe

I am not sure if by these "new found freedoms" you mean the freedoms to starve to death, or the freedom to let the elderly die because inflation is higher than the increase in the pension, which amount to pennies in american money. Or the freedom to let our counrty, for which bled during WW2 be torn apart, and sold like at some kind of yard sale. My grandfather has lost 4 brothers, and my grandmother lost her whole family to beat back the Nazis from the USSR. But you wouldnt know how i would feel about republics like estonia, latvia, and lithuania leaving the USSR, because you family has not bled for that. Without the USSR, these republics would be under Nazi rule. At a cost of 20 million lives we beat back the Nazis and then we just give away territory like its a flea-market. But you wouldnt know anything about that, would you?
Because when the same thing happened in the United States, the capitalists would not give up the South, they didnt decide to be the 'bigger men' like Gorbachev did in early 1991, they decided to take it back by force. Or if by this you mean the freedom of corruption? Im not sure which freedom you refer to here, please clarify.


"A person like yourself would have a superb chance of making a big success in the free market economy.
Do not sell yourself short, and pooh pooh all other types of government."

--GIJoe

This might be true, however, I have strong ideals about equality. I believe that equality is more important than efficiency in terms of both, an economic system and a political one. I do not 'pooh pooh' all other types of government, it is simply my opinion that what Russia needs to get back on it's feet again is a strong socialist government.

"The important thing is a better life for you and your loved ones and your countrymen."

This is precisely what socialist are trying to do. I do not disagree with you here.

"A man with your intellect would be a great service to current regime in Russia."

The current Russian govt is not in the service of recruiting either intellectuals or honest people. They would much rather prefer, liars, thieves and con men, to fill their ranks. Just watch the news about Russia for a day and you will.

"Why can't we forget that we are Russian or American or French or anything for that matter, we are all HUMAN BEINGS and deserve to live in a better world then our children."

This is a marxist thought, i dont know if you meant it to come out that way, but this what socialism attempts to do. =) Also, on a lighter note, I am not closed minded. As I have told you before, I have studied both economic systems, and continue to study both economic systems, and in my opinion equality is more important than efficiency. And I believe I was called an "egghead" for my opinion, not sure by who though, oh yes, now i recall, it was you. =)
  • 0

#1542 Vital1

Vital1

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 16 posts

Posted 01 December 2003 - 01:46 AM

I am re-posting this, due to the fact that we got a little 'side-tracked' earlier.

What would it take for russia to be number #1?

1. An elimination of poverty.
- This can only be done through a stable and steady increase in the GDP of the country, which would directly increase household wealth, taxes paid, etc etc. Some of you have said that foreign investment is the key to this. I prefer to offer a different opinion; please see #3. There need not be foreign investment to save Russia. Russia has sufficient natural resources to save itself, but these need to be in the hands of the people, the hands of the majority, from whom they were stolen by the few, the corrupt, and they need to be seized back before any other steps are taken. Putin is leading into a similar direction because he understands the importance of this.

2. An end to organized crime.
- How can we end crime without a stable government? It is impossible. How can a government be stable when the country is in a state of utter poverty? It is impossible. Therefore, to eliminate organized crime, poverty first has to be eliminated. Only when poverty is eliminated, can organized crime be crushed, not beforehand.

When it is more profitable for ordinary teens to go into the business of crime rather than to go to school and get a degree, something is definitely wrong!

3. The seizure of the means of production back into the hands of the government. Especially mining and natural resource facilities like those of oil, coal, etc. Without some sort of income, it is extremely difficult for the government to operate effectively.

4. The slow introduction of Marxism into the political and economic system. Why you ask? Hasn't communism failed once, isnt that enough? The answer is, no. Communism never failed, and I have done extensive reading on the subject of "Was the Soviet economy doomed to bankrupcy in 1990?" and the answer is "No, it was not." The reforms that were instituted by Mikhail Gorbachev were instituted incorrectly, and his inability to react to the crisis that resulted from his reforms made things even worse. B. Yeltsin took advantage of this and now his children won't have to work for at least 5 generations to come. Gorbachev opened the door to capitalism too fast, and caused the corruption of a socialism system. It flooded all ranks of government and economics like a cancer which could not be stopped. That door now needs to be shut because the capitalism of Russia is now in the worst state, a country where people:
"know the price of everything, and the value of nothing" -- Arthur Okun.

If you guys have suggestions about this post, lets start from number # and work our way down this time instead of attacking communism right away. If you have an alternative means to end poverty, let it be heard.
  • 0

#1543 GIJOE

GIJOE

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 844 posts

Posted 01 December 2003 - 02:11 AM

There a numerous things on which we most certainly aggree.
And we can aggree to dissagree,with decorum.
The remarks i have made regarding the good of all mankind is from my own mind, I have not a great knowledge of Marx's writings.
As for the loss of life your family has incurred to beat back the nazi's, My heart goes out to you! honestly..
The old people are the ones who should be treated with the most respect and kindness and it is a shame that this is not happening in post soviet Russia. This is wrong and must be made right..
Any change is always painful to some more then others.
Birth of a new system, is like birth of a new baby, there is always pain, but hopefully this agony will be followed by great joy.
This is my hope for the new RUSSIA.
Constant confrontation is not a good thing, it can lead to miscalculation, which could lead to horror for all.
Let us step back from confrontation and build a bridge to the future with understanding and patience for one another.
I am not a military man, just a man.
I have not the knowledge of a learned scholar, just a person of the street, that has been blessed to be born with a talent, which i have used to better my family and the world.
Do not misconstrue my quick temper and stinger fingers at times.
I do not mean to enrage you V, merely to encourage you to engage in dialog. I once had this type of argument with my fellow countryman the BEAT. We have since come to a meeting of the minds and it seemed to have p i s s e d off Raffphi, another poster.
As for the answer to Russia's current problems, i do not profess to have one complete solution.
Belive it or not, one of my concepts for Russia's entry into the 22nd century, would be a partnership of equality and security with the U S. I see this as imperative , if either one of our countries is to defeat terrorism.
We planned to blow one another to bits for 45 years.
Now if my country would spend one tenth on assisting Russia, as it did building it's arsenal, this would be a good thing for both of our nations. and it would stupid not to do it.
corruption is a disgrase to mankind, and one way to rid the system of it would be from within.
when we work outside of the system we make very little headway, that is why i stated you could have far more of and impact on your country, if you worked from within.
Sometime we must stoop to conquer.
I wish you no harm, and i appologize for my past attacks, they were emotional and at times uncalled for. In retrospect, I regret that i did not start out my dialog with you IN THIS MANNER.

joe
  • 0

#1544 Vital1

Vital1

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 16 posts

Posted 01 December 2003 - 03:18 AM

Well said, joe.
  • 0

#1545 Vital1

Vital1

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 16 posts

Posted 01 December 2003 - 03:23 AM

Has anyone got any suggestion of how to deal with the issue of the Russian Mafia and these 'oligarks', not sure if that is the correct spelling for that. Also, the issue with poverty.

My proposition is to take away their sources of income and return them to the government. Thereby providing a steady flow of income in the treasury. Im talking about the oil,coal, and factory owners, mostly the humoungous corporations 'owned' by one man multi-millionaires.
  • 0

#1546 GIJOE

GIJOE

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 844 posts

Posted 01 December 2003 - 04:16 AM

One way to help solve the problems of one mega billionaire ownership of a company, would be to issue stock to all those that worked for the company, based on their level of competence and position, never allowing any one or small clique of people to accumulate a grotesque portion of wealth, while others grovel in poverty. This might help level the playing field, in country new to free market syle corporate ownership.
The instant turnover of state owned business's and property, has been a thorn in the side of the people.
There is soon to be and election in Russia, is this not correct?
If so, when this happens , the person that declares to do everything in the states means , to erradicate crime at any and all levels, should be sought after to run the country.
  • 0

#1547 Vital1

Vital1

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 16 posts

Posted 01 December 2003 - 05:20 AM

Thats not a bad idea, to issue stock ownership. However, dont large companies only dilute their ownership but issuing stock when they want or when they themselves need funds? The individuals are pretty happy to own all that they do, and do no need any financial support from outside investors, they can pretty much afford to finance their day to day operations and much more. So how can they be made to share the wealth? that is the question.
  • 0

#1548 GIJOE

GIJOE

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 844 posts

Posted 01 December 2003 - 06:51 AM

I think, but i am not certain, that FEDEX the shipping company is owned by the employees . to what exact degree , i am not sure.
This company is doing very well, with the company ownership give 110percent to keep their ship afloat.
Yes most corporations, are owned by a select few that have the lions share. I would rather see it work where , the biggest cats had more then enough to get by, but not so much as to cause
any other workers to have to little... There must be a more fair devision of the wealth, I totally aggree with premise.
In the end a bizzare scenerio could take place, whereby the employee's whom we could refer to as the workers. take over the ownership of the companies they work for, not just in name but in reality. sharing in the profits.
Some ideas will always bring political confrontation, that is not important, whatever works best for the people, not the state.
is best.
  • 0

#1549 GIJOE

GIJOE

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 844 posts

Posted 01 December 2003 - 06:56 AM

Originally posted by GIJOE
I think, but i am not certain, that FEDEX the shipping company is owned by the employees . to what exact degree , i am not sure.
This company is doing very well, with the company ownership give 110percent to keep their ship afloat.
Yes most corporations, are owned by a select few that have the lions share. I would rather see it work where , the biggest cats had more then enough to get by, but not so much as to cause
any other workers to have to little... There must be a more fair devision of the wealth, I totally aggree with premise.
In the end a bizzare scenerio could take place, whereby the employee's whom we could refer to as the workers. take over the ownership of the companies they work for, not just in name but in reality. sharing in the profits.
Some ideas will always bring political confrontation, that is not important, whatever works best for the people, not the state.
is best.



And Vital one, one more admission.

We had our Beria too. And he remained in power for over 35 years. and he was a crossdressing closet queen, that hated gays and men and woman of low moral terpitude.
No system is perfect, ours included.

there is far to much we can aggree upon, to spend our time berating one another..
  • 0

#1550 woj1@cyberonic.

woj1@cyberonic.

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 10667 posts

Posted 01 December 2003 - 12:29 PM

God in Trinity and Donq/Gijoe is in duality ha, ha ha in ; //Yes most corporations, are owned by a select few that have the lions share// joe. Nice slip ha, ha ha.
//The U S and the Kremlin have for many years now changed their nuclear targeting , we no longer have your leadership and military on our first strike lists.
Take me off your's and i will do the same..... joe//

Ha, ha ha. Fox is fox and waits for a cheese dropping from a singing crow. //"Why can't we forget that we are Russian or American or French or anything for that matter, we are all HUMAN BEINGS and deserve to live in a better world then our children." //Ha, ha ha; We says l sing back ; we all Slavs and Muslims are all HUMAN BEINGS and deserve to live in a better world
  • 0

#1551 woj1@cyberonic.

woj1@cyberonic.

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 10667 posts

Posted 01 December 2003 - 06:05 PM

This topic ; *What would it take for Russia to be#1?*
is arrogant form of patting in the back Russians and Slavs;
it sounds like dog giving advices to his master.
  • 0

#1552 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 01 December 2003 - 11:05 PM

<If you guys have suggestions about this post, lets start from number # and work our way down this time instead of attacking communism right away. If you have an alternative means to end poverty, let it be heard. >

Didn't I answer this one before point by point? Anyways, Vital, this is what I'd do: Stimulate the direct ownership of workers over the means of production, ie, cooperatives in their various forms. This would directly motivate them and would put bread on the table since day one. Then bring experts from other succesful cooperative models (kibbutz, Mondragon, etc). Next we can discuss what other proposals are to be implemented for the whole of society: Free Education, Free Health Care (possibly the Canadian system) and those high standards that make Scandinavia #1, reduction of the workweek, the advantages of decentralization learned from the Swiss system and the model of Curitiba for other cities and so on as I explained in the original proposal.

In other words the economy and the food on the table must be the first priorities along with getting rid of the lion, for we must be on the lookout not to create new ones...;)

Bader explained it real good...

'keep it simple, keep it local
A major change in society can only proceed with the stability to
succeed and continue to a successful level if it is at the pace the
public can appreciate and continue to be/feel a part of change so
that they effectively "own'' it.
So you can only move as fast as people can re-educate and
understand to move outside the square of the social conditioning
that has the majority trapped.
For the medium term a substantial change in the education system is necessary so the next generation dont have to unlearn the current legal,mental, political disciplines etc that have people
conditioned and trapped.
In the immediate term govt hopefully will assist by funding key
factors that will allow change, eg coops and more public input
into local authorities to assist the turn around from top down to bottem up authority.
It is essential that simple and local "'instruments" are created so
people can see and experience the hands on and confidence
that they can run their own society and importantly appreciate
the principles in the "instruments" so they know what are the
principles that do work and continue to use them as building blocks. People then spot very easily the fake and slight of hand
once they are educated based on experience and ownership.
Two types of instruments I would look at first is replace party politics which only leeds to money ruling, with reps representing the locals (not parties) as servants so they are subject to pressure from their own people not where they are going to get their campaign funds from at the next election. This would include the Swiss fererenda system. Similarly the bureaucrat must
become accountable to the locals who pay his salary as well.
The other is the coop which DONQ champions because its a classic model that in essence is what this is all about and a great
educational tool - that educates and confirms peoples ability to
own and run their own affairs better than all the systems currently corrupting humanity and the planet.
One word of warning. This is democracy and a lot of people are not prepared to take the individual responsibility that it requires for it to be effective, resistent to social desease; so the insecure, the socialists (the more extreme ones who dont recognise the individual only the state) and libertarians ( in the other extreme who think every man is an island) will fight it.
Not to mention the Lion/s whos power actually primarily comes
unwittingly from the little animals.
((When Gulliver wakes up enough (confidence and self belief)
he can stand up inspite of the twines anytime. The twines are the visual tools (power of suggestion) that enforces the more powerful twines (conditioning) in his mind.))
Georgian Lions showed they have reverse gear just like every other creature.
A point to remember is if you remove big volumns of bad in one hit
is there big volumns of good to displace it, as there is no such thing as vacuums in social environments like politics. Something will fill the space if the good is less than the bad removed- bit off what you can chew. Create models that neighbouring regions will
want to emulate. These models will bring real competition, so that people can vote with their feet and money and support the new starving the old- thats brutal, the blood of systems will be spilt but no blood of people in the streets.'
  • 0

#1553 caligulas

caligulas

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 16 posts

Posted 01 December 2003 - 11:24 PM

Mr GI Joe,
You are very right: is a very hard place to be number one.When something terrible happens on a global scale, the dinosaur dies first.That's the point :what country should be number one in times of trouble? There's no difference between killing one man or 4 billions ,but there's a difference between saving one man and saving the future of mankind.
You spoke the truth ,so I will do it:it's something to be a young people ,with some centuries of existance and another thing to be an old people.You should not judge my people by the last centuries.
I'm very afraid that very young and young peoples will not survive their fall.I believe in Russians and Americans ,not in their countries leadership.
Democracy is not a game.We are all equals ,but at one time ,one man rules and he is fully responsible,not obscure organisations.The best man to lead should do that if he wishes to. Freedom is more important than honor ,who is more important than life.That's my belief.
  • 0

#1554 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 01 December 2003 - 11:33 PM

<Has anyone got any suggestion of how to deal with the issue of the Russian Mafia and these 'oligarks', not sure if that is the correct spelling for that. Also, the issue with poverty.>

Remove big profits from any activity they profit from. Regulation, not prohibition, is the answer. Like I said before Holland having regulated drugs has a fraction of the problem of Colombia, or Russia for that matter...

As you will see:

The souce is 'The Economist,' then my proposal that ends
with the subject of the failure of drug prohibition... Relax, and
light up... :)

(the emphasis in capital letters is mine)

Just Say Maybe

For an example of how NOT to make good health policy, consider the
international debate on drugs

Source: The Economist, April 5-11th 2003

The framework for global drug policies is set by three UN
conventions... [which] set rules prohibiting the production,
manufacture, trade, use or possession of potentially harmful drugs...
That means [the signatories] are, on the face of it, prevented from
experimenting with the idea that CONTROLLED, PERMITTED use may be less
harmful than the side-effects of prohibition.

Plenty of non-governmental organizations (NGOs) and even some
government ministers (in private, at least) now recognize that these
treaties and the policies the encourage are the WRONG WAY to tackle
drug abuse.

The arguments for a different approach have grown stronger, not
weaker, since 1998. The failure of the current policy has become much
clearer. There is no sign that government intervention has cut
supply...

My proposal...

'Something to think about: While the prohibition of drugs has been largely ineffective, different studies show us alternative methods to face that problem -and the crime associated with them...'

http://webspawner.co...ers/donquijote1
  • 0

#1555 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 01 December 2003 - 11:37 PM

<Thats not a bad idea, to issue stock ownership. However, dont large companies only dilute their ownership but issuing stock when they want or when they themselves need funds? The individuals are pretty happy to own all that they do, and do no need any financial support from outside investors, they can pretty much afford to finance their day to day operations and much more. So how can they be made to share the wealth? that is the question. >

They sound like good band aids to me. The problem is, as you said, the patient got cancer...;)

At best good for the most educated workers, certainly not for the ones toiling at McDonald's.
  • 0

#1556 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 02 December 2003 - 12:03 AM

< Nobody will make Gorbaczew mistake one more time. When we Slavs put back nuclear arms in Cuba we will free Russia from organized crime and Georgia from Americans bases. After that US wouldn-t dare to voice any objections to put to prison any criminals like Khodorowsky. ....>

Wake up, stop your delirium. The Soviet Union is no more, now it has joined Cuba in the long list of Banana Republics, though by different means...;)

THE PIGS' REVOLUTION

(Characters in this story: lion #1, the USA; lion #2, the former USSR; and #3, the EU and others. The Little and the Big Pigs are always the same... The action takes place in Cuba.)

(This story shouldn't be taken too literally. However, it has its moral...)

Once upon a time there were some little pigs who decided to carry out a revolution and established a utopia called "socialism," in which everything was supposed to be shared equally. And, of course, soon enough they were attacked by some lions. Then it turned out that the Big Pigs (by now some of the pigs got big and fat) allied themselves with some other lions. They petted them and told the Little Pigs (these remained little due to lack of freedom and food) that these lions were indeed peace-loving creatures. And they even sent the Little Pigs into wars in order to free the other farms from the old lions and secure them for the newer ones. Down the road, these lions decided that the pigs ate too much and banded together with their former competitors, who only fed on juicy prey. The Big Pigs now chose the only lions left. They felt that they could hang on to power and keep living high on the hog if they struck a deal with the new lions: The Big Pigs get to feed their power appetite; the new lions get to fill their piggy banks thanks to cheap labor, and get to enjoy lions-only tourist attractions. The Little Pigs, in the meantime, receive promises: The Big Pigs tell them that if the put up with the new lions, they'll be safe from the old ones; the new lions tell them that if they work hard enough, they'll soon have plenty; and the old lions tell them that if they rebel, they'll get to live in a brand new pigsty called "democracy," just like before. And they lived happily ever after...
  • 0

#1557 woj1@cyberonic.

woj1@cyberonic.

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 10667 posts

Posted 02 December 2003 - 01:51 AM

Woj got the fevers
< Nobody will make Gorbaczew mistake one more time. When we Slavs put back nuclear arms in Cuba we will free Russia from organized crime and Georgia from Americans bases. After that US wouldn-t dare to voice any objections to put to prison any criminals like Khodorowsky. ....>

Wake up, stop your delirium. The Soviet Union is no more, now it has joined Cuba in the long list of Banana Republics, though by different means...

Dong;
In the field of observation chance only favors minds which are prepared; Louis Pasteur.
I have done what I could.
  • 0

#1558 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 02 December 2003 - 03:07 AM

Well, not exactly his words, but these are answers put together by experts based on Orwell's writings, written as if it was Orwell himself...

QUESTION:
Animal Farm and 1984 in particular seem critical of political regimes at either end of the spectrum. Does this reflect cynicism of politics generally, or do you have definite political leanings?
(Pauline, aged 25+)

Dear Pauline,

You have to remember that the specific timing of both these novels was deliberate and their objective focused on the exposure of the corrupt nature of Soviet state even when Russians were at the height of their popularity.

I knew it would be depressing to defeat Hitler and then find Europe dominated by Stalin. One form of totalitarianism is just as bad as another whether it is within a capitalist or communist state, whether right or left.

In my Preface to the Ukrainian edition of 1984 I said: ''nothing has contributed so much to the corruption of the original idea of Socialism as the belief that Russia is a Socialist country and that every act of its rulers must be excused if not imitated. And so for the past ten years I have been convinced that the destruction of the Soviet myth was essential if we wanted a revival of the Socialist movement''.

Throughout my life my politics changed from one direction to another as events unfolded around me, and my experiences in the Spanish Civil War was one of the key turning points - you could say it did make me cynical of politics itself, but not of the central noble spirit in humans.

My personal philosophy guarded me from any specific ''leaning'' - and as you will see from my other answers, I did not adhere to one particular political movement. I saw myself chiefly as a critic whose job it was to commentate on the politics of the time - if anything I suppose you could call me a humanist, but then I have always distrusted any word that ends in ''ism'' or ''ist''.

Yours,

George

http://www.talkingto...=2196&CatID=208
  • 0

#1559 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 02 December 2003 - 03:16 AM

<In the field of observation chance only favors minds which are prepared; Louis Pasteur.
I have done what I could.>

"It is against Stupidity in every shape and form that we have to wage our eternal battle. But how can we wonder at the want of sense on the part of those who have had no advantages, when we see such plentiful absence of that commodity on the part of those who have had all the advantages?"
-William Booth (1829
  • 0

#1560 donquijote

donquijote

    Registered User

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3919 posts

Posted 02 December 2003 - 03:37 AM

I know many of you answered "what,";) but this is some serious stuff for those of us challenging the official version, and that somehow feel intimidated.

Here's some heavy duty quotation...

"To oppose the policies of a government does not mean you are against the country or the people that the government supposedly represents. Such opposition should be called what it really is: democracy, or democratic dissent, or having a critical perspective about what your leaders are doing. Either we have the right to democratic dissent and criticism of these policies or we all lie down and let the leader, the Fuhrer, do what is best, while we follow uncritically, and obey whatever he commands. That's just what the Germans did with Hitler, and look where it got them."
Michael Parenti

more...

http://www.thirdworl....com/index.html
  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Copyright © 2016 Pravda.Ru